np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 15 - Higher Ground [SEE POST 2 FOR NEW SUSPECT INFO]

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It would be cool if each OU council member who voted for the suspect made a brief post about their views on Gliscor, even it’s just a five minute blurb.

I think it’s especially valuable for suspects like the present one where opinion is lukewarm and DNB takes are most prevalent. If there were Ban sentiments among some of the council members leading for them to vote for this suspect, that would be valuable to hear especially coming from such skilled players.

As a relative newcomer who likes learning from experienced folks’ posts, I really appreciate Finch’s in-depth posts here as well as Ausma’s and xavgb’s on recent suspects. I’m sure there are many folks who’d agree.

Thanks for all the work you guys do here!
 
It would be cool if each OU council member who voted for the suspect made a brief post about their views on Gliscor, even it’s just a five minute blurb.

I think it’s especially valuable for suspects like the present one where opinion is lukewarm and DNB takes are most prevalent. If there were Ban sentiments among some of the council members leading for them to vote for this suspect, that would be valuable to hear especially coming from such skilled players.

As a relative newcomer who likes learning from experienced folks’ posts, I really appreciate Finch’s in-depth posts here as well as Ausma’s and xavgb’s on past suspects. I’m sure there are many folks who’d agree.

Thanks for all the work you guys do here!
A few more are hopefully coming. We have already had a few posts and there are some days left, so stay tuned for that!
 
Offense also requires a lot of decisions that balance does not always need to make, like mid ground plays, sacks, and high quality sequencing. Unfortunately slower playstyles will always be a step behind with Tera/ the amount of half-broken mons in the tier. But I don’t think that means it’s a more skillful style.
Generalizations like this are really off-base. Offense mirrors are some of the best games and throwing them all into the bucket of variance misses a huge chunk of this (or many, many other) metagame(s). The goal is for every archetype to be usable in any balance metagame after all.
 
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It would be cool if each OU council member who voted for the suspect made a brief post about their views on Gliscor, even it’s just a five minute blurb.
I wrote mine in the other thread and will go ahead and link it here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gliscor-suspect-qualified-discussion.3754479/post-10338513

Short version is that I'm still unsure but think both sides have valid points, but also believe there's a lack of qualified discussion that was previously asked for. A lot of people are unsure so more people posting their opinions would be appreciated.
 
It would be cool if each OU council member who voted for the suspect made a brief post about their views on Gliscor, even it’s just a five minute blurb.
I will be doing this! I’ve been on a leave of absence and have mostly been focusing on IRL related matters and recharging my Smogon battery. I’ve been mostly sidelining for this test for that reason and also because I don’t really have a strong opinion on Gliscor.

Quick 1am thoughts while they’re on my mind:

SD is a gnarly win condition into bulkier teams (duh) but most consistently shines by being a disruptive force throughout the game thanks to its unique resilience into status, Spikes, and Knock Off to let it bonk things more easily. I think this set is best when using Knock Off itself; it lets you pressure its better checks by making them more vulnerable to hazard chip, while always letting Gliscor be consistently disruptive and leverage its inherent utility as a progress sponge. SD Gliscor is most consistent in the early/mid game imo since this is where Gliscor is healthiest and when it has the most support from its teammates, but ironically this is also where SD Gliscor can falter, since this is when it is most prone to being blown out of position and too damaged to reliably clean later in the game. This can also occur if it is too reliant on boosts to pose a threat into a given composition (this mostly matters into offense); this is namely when it drops EQ (which gets by without boosts since it hits a lot of things super effectively) and matches up into teams where it really needs the extra turns to get boosts for Facade. This can be exploited by conscientious players/structures. Obviously though there’s more nuance to this (such as with Tera Normal and Dark) that I will unpack at a later time.

I’ve mostly preferred the Toxic utility sets that utilize U-turn or layer hazards and have mostly been building with those, so I still need to ascertain how to convey/annunciate my feelings by observing Balance interactions a bit and building with it more. As such I don’t know 100% where I stand yet but pre-emptively leaning toward DNB. Stay tuned for a more dedicated post!
 
I wouldn't say it should be banned. It is very easy to counter as some users use sword dance and then protect which gives you a chance to set up and sweep it if you have an ice team. Although if you don't have an ice type on your team it isn't very easy to counter and can probably sweep you whole team. As its EVS give it a boost in defense. But overall it isnt that scary to deal with since I know half of ou players bring kyurem just in case they have a encounter with gliscor.
 
I wouldn't say it should be banned. It is very easy to counter as some users use sword dance and then protect which gives you a chance to set up and sweep it if you have an ice team. Although if you don't have an ice type on your team it isn't very easy to counter and can probably sweep you whole team. As its EVS give it a boost in defense. But overall it isnt that scary to deal with since I know half of ou players bring kyurem just in case they have a encounter with gliscor.
This is a good argument for banning gliscor
 
I wouldn't say it should be banned. It is very easy to counter as some users use sword dance and then protect which gives you a chance to set up and sweep it if you have an ice team. Although if you don't have an ice type on your team it isn't very easy to counter and can probably sweep you whole team. As its EVS give it a boost in defense. But overall it isnt that scary to deal with since I know half of ou players bring kyurem just in case they have a encounter with gliscor.
Your Kyurem when Gliscor is always paired with rocks/spikes:
 
I know the council would get very mad at this logic, but I think people should vote ban just to progress the meta in some way. It feels extremely stagnant. I was hopeful after the false-Kyu ban but we’re back to where we were before that with not many options except possibly testing Tera blast.
 
I know the council would get very mad at this logic, but I think people should vote ban just to progress the meta in some way. It feels extremely stagnant. I was hopeful after the false-Kyu ban but we’re back to where we were before that with not many options except possibly testing Tera blast.
You can dislike the metagame for sure, but calling it stagnant is pretty wild to me. We have had one ban across the last long stretch (Gouging Fire), but yet the tier continues to shift a ton. Different archetypes, combinations, and trends come-and-go. I would resonate a bit more (not that I would agree) if you described it as a threat over-saturation issue, but the tier continues to evolve at a pretty rapid pace -- this really does not feel like it.

Just to give some examples, since the start of SCL (September), we have seen totally new stall teams take over that archetype, Webs become a prominent form of HO again, the decline of Sun/Rain while Veil Hail picked up usage, and the re-shaping of bulky-offense as a whole on an archetype level. On a Pokemon level, Landorus-T and Slowking-Galar are still good, but nowhere near being S tier (probably not even A+) options like they used to be while we have seen a huge uptick in Pecharunut, Lokix, Weezing-Galar, Hydrapple, Moltres, and Alomomola and sizable gains for Slither Wing, Tornadus-T, Iron Boulder, Araquanid, and Kommo-O. Most of these originate from and are reflected on the ladder, too -- not just tournaments.

The tier has changed more over the last 3 months than virtually any other generation's metagame has when approaching two full years distanced from a release. You can have issues with balancing for sure and think we have too many threats, but the metagame is not stagnant and changes still occur regularly.
 
You can dislike the metagame for sure, but calling it stagnant is pretty wild to me. We have had one ban across the last long stretch (Gouging Fire), but yet the tier continues to shift a ton. Different archetypes, combinations, and trends come-and-go. I would resonate a bit more (not that I would agree) if you described it as a threat over-saturation issue, but the tier continues to evolve at a pretty rapid pace -- this really does not feel like it.

Just to give some examples, since the start of SCL (September), we have seen totally new stall teams take over that archetype, Webs become a prominent form of HO again, the decline of Sun/Rain while Veil Hail picked up usage, and the re-shaping of bulky-offense as a whole on an archetype level. On a Pokemon level, Landorus-T and Slowking-Galar are still good, but nowhere near being S tier (probably not even A+) options like they used to be while we have seen a huge uptick in Pecharunut, Lokix, Weezing-Galar, Hydrapple, Moltres, and Alomomola and sizable gains for Slither Wing, Tornadus-T, Iron Boulder, Araquanid, and Kommo-O. Most of these originate from and are reflected on the ladder, too -- not just tournaments.

The tier has changed more over the last 3 months than virtually any other generation's metagame has when approaching two full years distanced from a release. You can have issues with balancing for sure and think we have too many threats, but the metagame is not stagnant and changes still occur regularly.
Maybe I’m not good enough to see all of the changes and it’s just where I play (1600-1700) but I have felt that Lando-Gking offense is still very prominent on the ladder, possibly because of the sample teams that are available . I agree with the uptick of webs and it has been interesting to see Araqanid become the best webs user, but these changes keep in line with offense remaining the dominant playstyle. “HO is still the best, but it’s a different kind of HO” seems stagnant to me. But you are right, there’s a lot of movement within the playstyle and other archetypes are adapting, like Amoongus on stall.

You are FAR more informed on the meta than I will ever be so I’ll always trust your analysis over my own, but I do think a lot of people were excited to see where the meta would go after the Kyurem ban because it was a new direction for the gen. It’s very possible I’m misconstruing threat saturation with stagnation, as I think the issue still exists of most other archetypes having a very high skill floor and being very difficult to build compared to offense.
 
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Just got reqs :D.
I think one aspect of Gliscor that has gone largely untouched, and one that largely contributes to my overall stance that it is not banworthy, is its set predictability. Comparing it to a suspect like Kyurem, part of what made Kyurem so contentious was that it could run multiple different sets in the same slot, and you would have a hard time figuring it out from the team composition alone. While my experiences may differ from those of others, I feel as though Swords Dance Gliscor and Spikes Gliscor are incredibly telegraphed based on team composition in the vast majority of scenarios. Swords Dance Gliscor generally appears in tandem with strong hazard support for it to supplement with its beefed-up Knock Offs, most notably being on the same team as Skarmory or Ting-Lu largely being a dead giveaway, but this also applies to teams that happen to have strong hazard leads, such as Samurott-Hisui or Glimmora. By contrast, Spikes Gliscor is the hazard support, and as such is commonly seen paired with means of denying hazard removal, and is absolutely a dead giveaway on most stall or fat balance structures. I think that's an important distinction to make, because while both SD and Spikes Scor have differing answers, I don't feel as though the answers change drastically between minor variations in moveset (eq/toxic for utility sets, a choice of facade/earthquake/knock off commonly for SD) drastically alter which mons are capable of answering it. I think Gliscor's general predictability, and the pokemon that can exploit the passivity of its spikes set such as Taunt mons or sweepers that shrug off it's damage such as Gambit, as well as a well-played offensive threat in tandem with hazards can severely cut into SD Gliscor's long term usefulness, especially if it is forced to terastallize to not be removed by a powerful Ice/Water move leaving it entirely weak to spike-stacking from the opponent. It's still a very strong mon in practice because of the longevity it's granted by PHeal, its excellent base defensive typing leaving it hazard neutral to begin with, and its progress-forcing capabilities. However, I believe that the capability of strong players to be able to assess its set off the rip and plan their gameplan around keeping it in check is skill-intensive, and it's telegraphed nature ultimately leads me to believe that it is not an unreasonable threat to have to account for, as well as being an excellent defensive glue 'mon and progress maker.

TL;DR: Donut Banner (DNB)
 
I'm posting this very late and abbreviated from my initial plans. The week the suspect launched was really bad timing for me, personally. Between drought induced forest fire smoke giving me migraines, the USA election, and other real life circumstances, I have had literally no mental space left to devote to this suspect like I originally wanted to. And I really don't think I'll be needed in any way. That said, I wanted to bring up a few points I haven't seen made here or in the qualified thread.

1. Psychic Noise, Hex, and Tera.

Psychic Noise and Hex are really good anti-Gliscor tools that don't necesarrily rely on having to hit it super effectively. Tera Normal is a common Tera for Facade and certain defensive benefits, but this comes with the cost of a Fighting weakness. People have already talked about hazards and losing that great Ground/Flying typing, but I feel like the Fighting weakness is even worse for it.

Fighting moves and mons are extremely common in gen 9 OU, and arguably even necessary because of Kingambit. But practically every Tera that Gliscor would realistically use to counter Hex and/or Psychic Noise loses to Fighting STAB. Hex's Ghost typing is only resisted by Normal and Dark, but Fighting moves beat that. Psychic is only resisted by Dark, Steel, and Psychic. Dark and Steel Tera types can be rationalized. Psychic is a trash Tera type that makes no sense on Gliscor. But the rest mentioned are usable and weak to Fighting.

There are several other defensive Tera types that that can be decent, namely Water and Fairy. Water also has the benefit of boosting Crabhammer, which is niche, but maybe plausible. Fairy has the benefit of still resisting Fighting coverage. But these don't really do anything against Hex or Psychic Noise.

The point is Hex and/or Psychic Noise + the Fighting moves you already need for Gambit is basically like the perfect anti-Gliscor system. And while I won't get into it here, it still has plenty of other uses in this metagame.

2. More mons can deal with SD Gliscor using the right team support or structures.

SD sets tend to have 4 moves that they us out of Facade, Knock Off, Earthquake, and sometimes Ice Fang (usually with EQ.) The thing is, Gliscor can generally only carry two of those moves due to needing both SD and Protect. Each move has several drawbacks:

  • Facade is high power with the 140 activation, but non-STAB unless Tera Normal.
  • Knock Off is great utility, but non-STAB and halve in power after the opposing item is lost. Anything defensive that isn't weak to Dark can often take the subsequent Knock Offs more easily.
  • Earthquake is the only STAB. But there also has several ways to mitigate it like Air Balloon, G-terrain, and Tera Flying. It can also potentially be PP stalled due to the lower PP, making Gliscor then easier to deal with.
  • Ice Fang is sometimes good with EQ's Ground coverage, but it's a low base power non-STAB move that mostly only works well if it is supereffective.
Aside from Dozo and the metal birds, which don't super mind any of these moves, there are actually a lot of mons that can answer 2-3 of these moves. For example, Sinistcha can counter EQ/Facade coverage, but hates Knock Off.

However, I believe the most common SD Gliscor is Facade/Knock Off. Common mons for balance like Gambit and Garg do great into this set. They also are immune to Toxic and do great in general against any Gliscor as long as you avoid and/or mitigate EQ. Tera could also potentially be used.

Another thing you can do is overlap pokemon that counter different Gliscor variants. For example, a team with Gambit + Sinistcha is fine and would still probably counter the sets. I won't be getting into every mon and combination, but I do believe that reasonable team structures can be built with this in mind. Like you aren't exactly sacrificing a ton by using viable mons together in this way.

3. Have you considered not relying on boots spam?

Gliscor has to compromise too much. Gliscor has massive 4MSS. The need to carry Protect means it essentially has 3 moves to work with. SD makes it 2. Gliscor can try running a set without Protect, but it's much harder to make that consistent for obvious reasons. Gliscor can not be both bulky and make of the most of its mediocre base 95 speed tier. The speed tier is enough against slower teams, but offensive teams obviously don't care about base 95 speed. Slower teams might, but the trade off is Gliscor is frailer since it invests less in bulk.

The most common SD set, as far as I'm aware, is a speed invested Facade/Knock Off set. This is a great example of these trade offs. It trades bulk for more speed, it runs non-STAB moves Facade and Knock Off, and it needs further hazard support to make the most of Knock Off and its lacking base 95 Attack. It also loses to one of the most common mons in Gambit, among other things.

Anyways, this Facade/Knock Off set doesn't beat slower teams. It mainly beats slower teams that rely on boots spam to deal with hazards. Something like a Corv/Ace balance or a Geezing could keep the hazards at bay and make this less of an issue. There is also Hatt, which conveniently counters the passive Spikes/Toxic Gliscor sets. Hatt can be paired with a mon to deal with SD Gliscor, such as an ID mon, and that pretty much covers most of it.

I won't turn this into a how to deal with hazards post. The point is there are some creative options that balance teams can use that could make you less vulnerable to the combination of hazards and Knock Off. In general, hazard stack is really common and you probably should have an answer for that on your team anyway.
 
The suspect is now over and the following users achieved voting reqs (126):

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awyp
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https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/47 -- please vote here

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It should look roughly like this and give you the option to vote if (and only if) you qualified, so select accordingly. There is no longer blind voting subforums necessary like prior tests as this does that function by default.

Please vote ASAP, please PM me with any questions, and thank you for participating -- the deadline will be Sunday at 11pm GMT-5, but we will announce when there is a clear verdict.
 
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