Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Cyber-DJ said:
I don't want to talk about retesting Ubers, for several reasons.

The discussion thread essentialy becomes a brainrot center of "No, this Uber is valid to test, not that one". And no one's gonna agree on what to do, so more bickering over a discussion that, at best, received minor lip service on the council's end. Which also leads to another point of "What Ubers are feasible enough to even entertain, let alone drop back into the tier?" My hot take is that in OU's current state, none of the Ubers can come back, but that's either a different discussion entirely, or a tangent that this specific comment won't delve into. If you actually want to see my PoV for whatever reason, you're asking in DMs, cuz I really don't want this to be yet another Palafin circlejerk again.

Right now, I really don't think there's even much to discuss in the first place. We just tested Gliscor so they're out. No chance in Hell the council's gonna entertain a third Kyurem suspect, especially so soon after this whole mess, so that's out too. Maybe get the ball rolling on more in depth Tera Blast discussion, but idk. I feel like there genuinely isn't much to discuss these days as far as the next target on the chopping block that will be done, especially after the Gliscor suspect test just ended. I'd go as far to say that we shouldn't expect general tiering discussion as a whole until early November, likely more than that, which i'm not complaining about
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Watch out or Solgaleo might put out a sunsteel strike on your ass lol.

I feel like the reason people want change so much is that it feels like something is missing in this gen. You don't usually see complaints for change (not like this anyway) in other generations of ou after all. So what is it that this tier doesn't have that the others do?
 
AerionT said:
Jk, but what would be the premier candidates? I've read people wanting Palafin, Lugia and Solgaleo
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Palafin and Solgaleo are the only options even worth considering.

Solgaleo is a giant pile of stats burdened with a sub-par typing; Steel/Psychic is nothing special defensively and pretty bad offensively, which undermines outrageous 137/107/89 bulk and Morning Sun for recovery.

Still, even without a STAB bonus, Solgaleo has 137 Attack and great coverage options: Close Combat, Earthquake, and Flare Blitz are all high power, Knock Off is always useful, and Full Metal Body is an immunity to both Sticky Web and Intimidate. Sunsteel Strike and Psychic Fangs are powerful STAB options, as well, and you can dip into the special side with moves like Fire Blast/Flamethrower, STAB Future Sight, and Thunder Bolt to try mixed attacking - it doesn't have the movepool to focus on that side, but 113 Special means you can blast through physical walls very effectively.

The main lack is a way to boost its Attack stat - but then, does it need one? - and about half of OU can hit it super effectively with normal sets, so it receives discussion, but I think it's too much of a ball of stats. Maybe if the movepool was worse, or it was slow rather than sorta-fast, or if it didn't have Morning Sun, but the weaknesses don't quite offset the raw power in my opinion. It wouldn't be conventionally overpowered, blasting through the tier like Baxcalibur or Chi Yu, but it'd be immensely centralizing.


Palafin I support. It has a monstrous 160 Attack and excellent 100/97/87 bulk, but it can't run everything needed to dominate the tier like it did when first banned. Without Wave Crash, it'd struggle to break fat; without Jet Punch, it's just another fatty versus HO; without Taunt, it is forever walled by Dondozo on stall; without Flip Turn, you have to hard switch out to activate Zero to Hero and give a free turn to offense; without HDB, you'll be eating chip, especially unfortunate when Palafin's big nuke does recoil damage. Palafin also NEEDS to run a coverage move or else it can't touch Ogerpon-W, so it's hard to stack Wave Crash + Jet Punch + Flip Turn on the same set, and will always make one of those trade offs.

We have much better water resists now, and one of the best mons in the tier has a water immunity, so the days of Choice Band Wave Crash being both safe and deleting everything are gone. Stall teams have more options to deal with the stallbreaker set, and that set really hates all the offensive teams running around.

Palafin also has sparce coverage choices. Fighting has two excellent choices in Close Combat and Drain Punch, and Ice Punch is adequate ice coverage, but after that you're looking at Throat Chop (helps versus Sinistcha, but without Tera Dark even the Choice Band set isn't an OHKO), Zen Headbutt (fails to OHKO Toxapex even with Choice Band), and Tera Blast. Water/Fighting is great neutral coverage, but being predictable makes it easier to play against.

Of course, there's Choice Band Wave Crash in rain calcs for nuclear damage, but plenty of things can outspeed and revenge Palafin when it clicks a recoil move and lacks HDB. Rain teams blowing up an enemy isn't anything new.

All that said, 160 Attack and great mixed bulk means Palafin would be a top mon, but the drawbacks are enough that I'd love to see a tournament legalize it to see how Palafin would play out.
 
Just since the topic is on change of some kind, I'm genuinely curious as to why another suspect test of Tera doesn't get brought up more. I have a few questions about it, and despite lurking for a while now, I haven't really seen answers to them so I'll write them out here and any explanation from someone more skilled than me at the metagame would be appreciated.
  1. We only had one suspect test on Tera, almost right after release, so why haven't we revisited it again? Since then, the metagame has changed three times with the release of HOME Pokémon and the two DLCS, so shouldn't we go back to it- I say this especially because the voting for Tera had the multiapproach method, possibly diluting straight ban votes. With multiple Pokémon this gen and gens prior receiving multiple suspects, I believe that it wouldn't be unreasonable to have another suspect of Tera (given there is enough support for a ban in the player base to make the suspect process worthwhile).
  2. The main reason I hear that Tera isn't broken and instead is better for the tier is because skill expression and ceiling are much higher this current gen than previous gens, but doesn't Tera reduce skill because of its unpredictability factor? Being able to flip type matchups, counterplay, and even add coverage through Tera Blast are all possible areas of skill expression that I agree probably add a lot of skill to the game, but I believe that this addition of skill is outweighed by the drawbacks in that it becomes much harder to team build and gameplan when you have this much added variance through the previously mentioned ability to flip type matchups, counterplay, and coverage at will.
  3. If people are desperate for change, why not add a Tera-less ladder of OU that is identical to the current OU so people could see what a Tera-less metagame looks like? While there are some drawbacks (potentially less activity on the main OU ladder, time and effort spent programming the new ladder and server resources running it) I believe the possible benefits of testing out a Tera-less meta and breathing fresh air into the meta and discussion outweigh those drawbacks.
 
Delta4 said:
Just since the topic is on change of some kind, I'm genuinely curious as to why another suspect test of Tera doesn't get brought up more. I have a few questions about it, and despite lurking for a while now, I haven't really seen answers to them so I'll write them out here and any explanation from someone more skilled than me at the metagame would be appreciated.
  1. We only had one suspect test on Tera, almost right after release, so why haven't we revisited it again? Since then, the metagame has changed three times with the release of HOME Pokémon and the two DLCS, so shouldn't we go back to it- I say this especially because the voting for Tera had the multiapproach method, possibly diluting straight ban votes. With multiple Pokémon this gen and gens prior receiving multiple suspects, I believe that it wouldn't be unreasonable to have another suspect of Tera (given there is enough support for a ban in the player base to make the suspect process worthwhile).
  2. The main reason I hear that Tera isn't broken and instead is better for the tier is because skill expression and ceiling are much higher this current gen than previous gens, but doesn't Tera reduce skill because of its unpredictability factor? Being able to flip type matchups, counterplay, and even add coverage through Tera Blast are all possible areas of skill expression that I agree probably add a lot of skill to the game, but I believe that this addition of skill is outweighed by the drawbacks in that it becomes much harder to team build and gameplan when you have this much added variance through the previously mentioned ability to flip type matchups, counterplay, and coverage at will.
  3. If people are desperate for change, why not add a Tera-less ladder of OU that is identical to the current OU so people could see what a Tera-less metagame looks like? While there are some drawbacks (potentially less activity on the main OU ladder, time and effort spent programming the new ladder and server resources running it) I believe the possible benefits of testing out a Tera-less meta and breathing fresh air into the meta and discussion outweigh those drawbacks.
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1) There's hardly any support for Tera Blast. Let alone the real deal, so don't get your hopes up.

2) Because of the downsides of the type after the fact.

3) Seperating the playerbase. Also, assuming a 2nd Tera suspect happens, is it on the Tera OU or Teraless OU? And whichever you pick, why that one?
 
Please let's not do palafin discussion yet. Tera blast had 10 pages of support before we were given a gliscor test anyhow. Tera blast ban is valuable for reducing match up fishing while still keeping generational mechanic in tact. It is also exciting enough! Regileki was ROBBED this gen by wrong mechanics and was never revisited. He comes back by default in a tera blast ban meta and should be included in the test by default. We can then test volc which was valuable to the game. This is exciting and a positive change and it DOES have the support. It had EQUAL support to gliscor on previous survey.

Stay on target gentlemen!
 
Cyber-DJ said:
1) There's hardly any support for Tera Blast. Let alone the real deal, so don't get your hopes up.

2) Because of the downsides of the type after the fact.

3) Seperating the playerbase. Also, assuming a 2nd Tera suspect happens, is it on the Tera OU or Teraless OU? And whichever you pick, why that one?
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3. Good point, hadn't thought about how that would affect suspect voting- I'd put it on Tera OU, because that's the 'main ladder' and would be the one the player base has been playing on for the longest time.
2. While there are potentially downsides to the type you become after the fact, I'd argue that the ability to grab surprise KOs or live hits that a mon normally shouldn't far outweigh that. Plus, in the endgame if it's down to a 1v1 between two mons and your Tera allows you to grab the KO the type you are after is a moot point since you've already won the game.
 
Delta4 said:
3. Good point, hadn't thought about how that would affect suspect voting- I'd put it on Tera OU, because that's the 'main ladder' and would be the one the player base has been playing on for the longest time.
2. While there are potentially downsides to the type you become after the fact, I'd argue that the ability to grab surprise KOs or live hits that a mon normally shouldn't far outweigh that. Plus, in the endgame if it's down to a 1v1 between two mons and your Tera allows you to grab the KO the type you are after is a moot point since you've already won the game.
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Let's wait and see what the natdex player base does about tera, because that could spark renewed discussion about tera as a whole here if it goes, ultimately I know natdex is a different environment but at the same time it could renew discussion around it.

Natdex is a separate beast but it would likely bring discussion it back to the forefront if it got banned there

Yeah tera blast sounds like the play at the current time, but I would like to see how the natdex tera suspect plays out because that could renew discussion

Also stall is still cooked even with Gliscor, Bulky Offense and balance love still having it though

Also no discussing Uber dropping until whatever action is next happens because now is not the time
 
BolTingBlazie said:
Let's wait and see what the natdex player base does about tera, because that could spark renewed discussion about tera as a whole here if it goes, ultimately I know natdex is a different environment but at the same time it could renew discussion around it.
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I don't think the tiering leaders are interested in testing it lol
 
The appetite to ban Tera Blast just isn't there. If we do have another suspect test in the next couple of months, it'll probably be a re-suspect of Kingambit.

Solgaleo would not be a good drop to OU. This thing has the stats and movepool to lure almost anything in OU. A mixed set (Max Special Attack) with Sunsteel Strike, Close Combat, Flamethrower, and Thunderbolt hits pretty much the entire tier aside from Gliscor itself.

It'd just be introducing yet another hugely centralizing threat and would do nothing regarding the problem of threat oversaturation. I am against dropping any Uber Pokemon to OU, especially not Palafin, which would 100% be cancerous in any meta with Tera legal.
 
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peepeepoopoo722 said:
Post in thread 'SV OU Tiering Surveys' https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/post-10255502
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That only polled the OLT qualifiers. If it had been a larger poll of people who regularly get reqs, support would have been lower than that. I maintain that there isn't enough support for a Tera Blast suspect even if a Tera Blast ban would reduce threat saturation and seriously weaken things such as Volcarona, Regieleki, and Espathra to the point that they'd be dropped back into OU, and things such as Iron Moth and other mons with a semi-common Tera Blast set would become much weaker.
 
Avira said:
Espathra
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I have already thought this through and espathra can just run an all bulk set with just calm mind stored power dazzling gleam and protect and then just sweep everything anyway. Not that a tera blast ban wouldn't weaken it but the psychic ostrich/emu should not be anywhere near ou this gen. That is just my opinion though.
 
Dropping in to say a few things. I liked the new suspect system. I'd add a metric that lets people automatically qualify with existing ladder alts. I don't feel strongly about tera blast but if anything is to be looked at in the near future it's that. The two borderline banworthy mons both survived and shouldn't be retested for a while if at all. I'd vote DNB on any mon tested at this point and if the meta remains stable like this for a while I wouldn't mind reexamining some uber mons, though there isn't much that stands out. Lugia and solgaleo should not be ou.

The suspect results are about what I expected, low 50s to mid 60s made perfect sense to me and I'm baffled that people were expecting it to be like 30% ban. I fully expected stallcord to be vehemently DNB under any circumstances for obvious reasons. What surprised me was how many people who are pro ban when it comes to things that inconvenience balance were either indifferent or wanted gliscor to stay. Maybe it's pessimism from kyurem staying, though I get the sense that many of them just don't like threats with a high damage output and thus are fine with gliscor because of its comparatively low attack stat even though it does the thing they're so allegedly against.
 
Avira said:
The appetite to ban Tera Blast just isn't there. If we do have another suspect test in the next couple of months, it'll probably be a re-suspect of Kingambit.

Solgaleo would not be a good drop to OU. This thing has the stats and movepool to lure almost anything in OU. A mixed set (Max Special Attack) with Sunsteel Strike, Close Combat, Flamethrower, and Thunderbolt hits pretty much the entire tier aside from Gliscor itself.
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That and it would be an absolute pain in the ass to deal with cosmic power sets + tera so please

If there was no tera there are a few mons that I think could be on the table as ubers drops, but that isn't the current situation we are in at the moment

I do think before a tera blast test, we should maybe wait and see how the natdex test pans out because that could maybe bring up new talking points and discourse even if it doesn't have any affect on sv specifically, natdex may be a different meta but it has a lot of the same issues that we have in sv ou despite having cut moves and mechanics
 
UltraSword said:
I have already thought this through and espathra can just run an all bulk set with just calm mind stored power dazzling gleam and protect and then just sweep everything anyway. Not that a tera blast ban wouldn't weaken it but the psychic ostrich/emu should not be anywhere near ou this gen. That is just my opinion though.
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This has a rough time against any strong Steel-type attacker (any boosting sweeper/wallbreaker would make it difficult for Espathra) such as Gholdengo, Iron Crown, and Kingambit, and they are all great mons in the tier. Tera Steel Sweepers/Wallbreakers are also effective if they have enough natural bulk.

Other checks include strong Choiced or Guts-boosted attackers such as Choice Band Lokix, Choice Band Rillaboom, Choice Band Scizor, and Ursaluna, and other mons that resist or are immune to Psychic that can either boost up in Espathra's face or wall it while chunking its health before forcing it out such as Calm Mind Cresselia, Calm Mind Hatterene, and Ting-Lu. Skeledirge and Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui with Acid Spray also beat Espathra 1v1.

There are also Tera-specific checks such as Tera Dark Blissey, Tera Dark Clodsire, Tera Dark Dondozo, Raging Bolt, and Tera Steel Assault Vest Toxapex.

Maybe you don't believe this is enough counterplay, but with how good mons such as Kingambit, Gholdengo, Hatterene, Iron Crown, and Ting-Lu are, I doubt Espathra would be clear cut broken in the way you think it'd be as it was mainly Tera Blast letting it beat Steel-type attackers that was the reason for its ban. There are a lot of stronger attackers in general in OU that can chunk Espathra for big damage pre-Tera before priority is enough to revenge kill it, so Espathra isn't guaranteed to be broken.
 
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Avira said:
This has a rough time against any strong Steel-type attacker (any boosting sweeper/wallbreaker would make it difficult for Espathra) such as Gholdengo, and Iron Crown, and Kingambit, and they are all great mons in the tier. Tera Steel Sweepers/Wallbreakers are also effective if they have enough natural bulk.

Other checks include strong Choiced or Guts-boosted attackers such as Choice Band Lokix, Choice Band Rillaboom, Scizor, and Ursaluna, other mons that resist or are immune to Psychic that can either boost up in Espathra's face or wall it while chunking its health before forcing it out such as Calm Mind Cresselia, Calm Mind Hatterene, and Ting-Lu. Skeledirge and Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui with Acid Spray also beat Espathra 1v1.

There are also Tera-specific checks such as Tera Dark Blissey, Tera Dark Clodsire, Tera Dark Dondozo, Raging Bolt, and Tera Steel Assault Vest Toxapex.

Maybe you don't believe this is enough counterplay, but with how good mons such as Kingambit, Gholdengo, and Iron Crown are, I doubt Espathra would be clear cut broken in the way you think it'd be as it was mainly Tera Blast letting it beat Steel-type attackers that was the reason for its ban. There are a lot of stronger attackers in general in OU that can chunk Espathra for big damage pre-Tera before priority is enough to revenge kill it, so Espathra isn't guaranteed to be broken.
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I do think that stored power gets so powerful at a certain point where even steels can't handle it. However you are probably right about priority being detrimental to espathra to an extent. From extreme speed dragonite to choice band scizor priority would be a good check to espathra...against a calm mind set. Against a cosmic power set this strategy probably falls flat unless espathra is either at really low health (like below 15%) or the priority user is able to come in before espathra sets up too much which might not work. This is all in theory but I just think espathra is too powerful for ou.
 
UltraSword said:
I do think that stored power gets so powerful at a certain point where even steels can't handle it. However you are probably right about priority being detrimental to espathra to an extent. From extreme speed dragonite to choice band scizor priority would be a good check to espathra...against a calm mind set. Against a cosmic power set this strategy probably falls flat unless espathra is either at really low health (like below 15%) or the priority user is able to come in before espathra sets up too much which might not work. This is all in theory but I just think espathra is too powerful for ou
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Except your theoretical Espathra now loses hard to Ting-Lu and Kingambit, and also gets bodied by all our phasers and encore users (Tinkaton especially) which we have no shortage of. It takes MUCH longer to become threatening than CM. And because you lack power without CM spatk boosts, you also lose to opposing set up mons like NP Ghold. Cosmic Power Esp would be memey and fishy in the same way Cosmic Power Clef is. That is to say, ultimately not consistent or good over other sets that are actually good.
 
This thread is a circus. Instead of identifying genuinely unhealthy or overpowered elements and proposing suspect tests, people decide they want to ban something so they fabricate cases out of thin air. If we had one suspect test per week, in six months, we’d be suspect testing Corviknight. I just want to thank Finchinator for not giving in to their every whim.

Sorry for the harsh tone :)
 
Hydrametr0nice said:
This thread is a circus. Instead of identifying genuinely unhealthy or overpowered elements and proposing suspect tests, people decide they want to ban something so they fabricate cases out of thin air. If we had one suspect test per week, in six months, we’d be suspect testing Corviknight. I just want to thank Finchinator for not giving in to their every whim.

Sorry for the harsh tone :)
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how so? people are just suggesting ways to fix a tier in desperate need of it
 
JackRG said:
how so? people are just suggesting ways to fix a tier in desperate need of it
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The tier is not in DESPERATE need of change. Many people enjoy it as it is. Even the tier leader—who tends to lean toward bans during suspect tests—has expressed that he likes the tier and considers it one of his favorite OU metagames. Different generations have always had their detractors: some people found Gen 8 (and Gen 2) boring, others criticize Gen 1 for its heavy reliance on RNG, and some dislike Gen 4 because the lack of team preview can be problematic. Similarly, you may dislike Gen 9 because it leans more heavily on offense and setup strategies, amplified by Terastalization.

Let’s not exaggerate: the tier is not in a desperate state. SV OU remains a very competitive metagame. You may never love Gen 9 OU—just as I don't enjoy Gen 1 OU, and wouldn't play it if it was the current gen. Personal preference is subjective, and many players do enjoy this generation. The focus should be on how competitive the tier is, not how much you personally like it. Stop framing the current meta as though it’s in the same state as it was after DLC 2.
 
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