Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I want to just say real quick that while it's definitely an interesting situation, that National Dex OU's metagame is far different from ours, since it is way more saturated with mechanics like Mega Pokemon, non-cut moves, and Z-Moves.

I'm all for eying it down to compare what Generation 9 elements look like with and without Tera, but I'm going to ask that we keep it out of here since it's not relevant to us.
 
ausma said:
I want to just say real quick that while it's definitely an interesting situation, that National Dex OU's metagame is far different from ours, since it is way more saturated with mechanics like Mega Pokemon, non-cut moves, and Z-Moves.

I'm all for eying it down to compare what Generation 9 elements look like with and without Tera, but I'm going to ask that we keep it out of here since it's not relevant to us.
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I would be the first person to agree with you that NATDEX and SVOU are completely different, but I really don't see the harm in peeking over and seeing how it affects the enjoyment of that tier. They've taken out a common defining mechanic (with some drops from UBERS) so it's possible to compare enjoyment before and after that change which would more likely than not, have the same effect here. I think saying it's not relevant is being willfully ignorant and dare I say, agenda driven. I'm not making a case for banning tera in this post, i'm just saying let's see what happens because why not?
 
senorlopez said:
I would be the first person to agree with you that NATDEX and SVOU are completely different, but I really don't see the harm in peeking over and seeing how it affects the enjoyment of that tier. They've taken out a common defining mechanic (with some drops from UBERS) so it's possible to compare enjoyment before and after that change which would more likely than not, have the same effect here. I think saying it's not relevant is being willfully ignorant and dare I say, agenda driven. I'm not making a case for banning tera in this post, i'm just saying let's see what happens because why not?
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if they find tera is broken and ban it, how will they get their undeserved wins with braindead ho?
 
Hi tera hater #1 here.
Until natdex runs a playerbase survey and we see satisfaction/competitiveness scores go up compared to tera era, idk what I can be smug about. It's exciting sure, but natdex speculation belongs in the natdex metagame discussion thread, not the OU one. If our community rly is tired of tera bs, it will show in our own surveys as well. Let's stay on topic.
 
JackRG said:
hard disagree, its fundamentally uncompetitive for the exact same reasons, and if theres one thing that test showed its that the general community is tired of tera bs
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I fundamentally disagree with the idea that there is a “general community”. SVOU and NDOU have very different playerbases, entirely separate tiering councils that likely have unique tiering philosophies, and a radically different metagame for numerous reasons other than tera. Many NDOU players have reasons to prefer it to CG that aren't just related to tera, such as access to Megas, Z-Moves, Dexited Pokemon, or even preferring to play mons with lost moves, such as the more widespread Defog access and moves like Pursuit. Furthermore, I’ve personally seen a widespread dismissive sentiment on Discord from OU players with regards to the quality of National Dex, and while I don’t think the criticism is entirely warranted, it definitely doesn’t seem like the playerbase is eager to adamantly follow in NDOU’s footsteps with regards to tiering. If Tera scores highly on a potential future survey, it could have grounds for a re-test, but using NatDex as precedent and claiming it proves that the SV OU community wants it banned is disingenuous at best.
 
Srn said:
Hi tera hater #1 here.
Until natdex runs a playerbase survey and we see satisfaction/competitiveness scores go up compared to tera era, idk what I can be smug about. It's exciting sure, but natdex speculation belongs in the natdex metagame discussion thread, not the OU one. If our community rly is tired of tera bs, it will show in our own surveys as well. Let's stay on topic.
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Agree with what you said. I just think a tier leader saying "it's not relevant" is non-constructive as there are some genuinely useful insights that could be taken from both sides of the tera argument in the future with, as you mentioned, surveys.

Won't bring up the topic again.
 
WilhelmTheOkay said:
Hey, its Scarlet and Violet's second birthday! While I don't have a thread quite like last year's, I did want to revisit a much smaller post I made about a year ago about the Titans of OU so far.
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My 10 Titans would be probably be (in no particular order):
- :Great_Tusk: Great Tusk, the most consistent spinner and general GOAT
- :Kingambit: Kingambit, the face of dangerous Tera setup sweepers in SV OU
- :Gholdengo: Gholdengo
- :Iron_Valiant: Iron Valiant, the quintessential speed control mon and monarch of set variety
- :Dragapult: Dragapult, no matter what this mon will always be solid
- :Zamazenta: Zamazenta, since its unban it's only gotten better and better, becoming one of the most central mons of SV OU.
- :Slowking-galar: Glowking, chilly reception mon that has enabled threats since day 1 and held balance together
- :Samurott-Hisui: Samurott-Hisui, Ceaseless Edge is an amazing move and Samurott has been abusing it since day 1 and its collection of good traits keep it as a solid pick
- :Kyurem: Kyurem, from Specs to DD, this mon always finds a way to wreck balance
- :Ogerpon-Wellspring: Wellspring. I was torn between so many mons but I think Wellspring has been the most consistent threat out of the rest that are left. Dragonite, Ting Lu, Garg, Glim, Moon, Bolt, Gliscor, Lando, Cinder, etc. but Ogerpon has been possibly the most influential mon against balance apart from Kyurem, its STAB coverage is terrifying and when it comes in, it's doing heavy damage.
 
senorlopez said:
Agree with what you said. I just think a tier leader saying "it's not relevant" is non-constructive as there are some genuinely useful insights that could be taken from both sides of the tera argument in the future with, as you mentioned, surveys.

Won't bring up the topic again.
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I never said that I don’t think there’s merit to it. I even said in the post that I think there are some positive things we could observe of it; it’s just not for this thread, which is meant for discussing the SV OU metagame in the confines of the metagame specifically. This is why I said it’s not relevant, since it’s not relevant to the thread, not overall. I’m all for talking about it elsewhere, like the OU Discord which is far more free form.

Moving on, I want to take a moment to gas up SpAtk booster Iron Moth as an alternative set. While it sucks that it loses out on the Speed boost, it makes Iron Moth a far more potent tool into balance and less reliant on Fiery Dance. On top of the added SpAtk investment it gets, the boost makes a big difference for Sludge Wave as a STAB move, making it good at attaining KOs into frailer neutral targets that it would otherwise need Fiery Dance for. Because of the loss of the Speed boost it’s a bit more selective, but it makes for a disgusting threat on Sticky Web structures with the added utility of clearing Toxic Spikes. Very fun set for sure.
 
ausma said:
I want to just say real quick that while it's definitely an interesting situation, that National Dex OU's metagame is far different from ours, since it is way more saturated with mechanics like Mega Pokemon, non-cut moves, and Z-Moves.

I'm all for eying it down to compare what Generation 9 elements look like with and without Tera, but I'm going to ask that we keep it out of here since it's not relevant to us.
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Gotcha, will keep that in mind.

Srn said:
Hi tera hater #1 here.
Until natdex runs a playerbase survey and we see satisfaction/competitiveness scores go up compared to tera era, idk what I can be smug about. It's exciting sure, but natdex speculation belongs in the natdex metagame discussion thread, not the OU one. If our community rly is tired of tera bs, it will show in our own surveys as well. Let's stay on topic.
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This exactly this, a survey will probably happen for both OU tiers in a few weeks so observe

I like what I see so far from natdex so we shall see
 
Having seen Dugtrio at the top of Abrs ADV viability ranking had me wondering, why Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are banned this gen? If there is one gen where trapping abilities are balanced its probably the gen where you can tera out of your weaknesses, especially when the trappers have really bad bst.
Thus i propose to unban Arena Trap and Shadow Tag.
 
qways said:
Having seen Dugtrio at the top of Abrs ADV viability ranking had me wondering, why Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are banned this gen? If there is one gen where trapping abilities are balanced its probably the gen where you can tera out of your weaknesses, especially when the trappers have really bad bst.
Thus i propose to unban Arena Trap and Shadow Tag.
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No.... just no....

This is also the gen where at worst, you force a mon to tera out of there initial typing to make sure your pokemon can sweep. And no, bad bst does not work as an arguement, people will find ways around that.
 
tbf the complete removal of tera will fundamentally change the metagame. Since we can't really talk about NDOU, i'd like to pose a hypothetical list for what happens when tera is removed from SVOU.

-Kingambit can no longer tera out of its weaknesses to fire/fighting/ground, meaning it can be reliably forced out by tusk/zama/val. (also gets rid of possible TB shenanigans which isn't really a plus or a minus)
-Due to being unable to tera steel/dark, Zamazenta can no longer shed its weakness to psychic/fairy attacks, and can be more reliably beaten by fighting resists since it lacks a damage boost on its coverage.
-Gliscor's SD sets recieve a solid nerf due to being unable to get stab on facade/knock. It also cannot tera out of its ice weakness (although this is a smaller complaint as it wants to avoid teras unless absolutely necessary)
-Iron moth can't gain stab on dazzling gleam
-Most sweepers can no longer tera into their original types to secure KO's they otherwise wouldn't.
-Volcarona could potentially be re-suspected as it can no longer constantly flip matchups and be otherwise nigh-impossible to counter.

This is really just off the top of my head and idrc if tera gets banned or not. A teraless metagame would be more fun though (imo).
qways said:
Having seen Dugtrio at the top of Abrs ADV viability ranking had me wondering, why Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are banned this gen? If there is one gen where trapping abilities are balanced its probably the gen where you can tera out of your weaknesses, especially when the trappers have really bad bst.
Thus i propose to unban Arena Trap and Shadow Tag.
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there's literally zero point in doing this as neither dug nor gothitelle are strong enough to meaningfully pick off specific mons with or without tera. It would add effectively nothing to the game since the one mon that could be picked off by them and is strong enough to be worth an entire team slot dedicated to them (which even that is a stretch) is gholdengo who is also a ghost type and thus immune to trapping. There is zero other reason to run one of the trappers.

Plus if they were big enough threats to be played around the immediate response will be running shed shell on whatever mon doesn't like being trapped.

If trapping was a remotely useful tool magnezone would be in OU.
 
RainWaiv said:
there's literally zero point in doing this as neither dug nor gothitelle are strong enough to meaningfully pick off specific mons with or without tera. It would add effectively nothing to the game since the one mon that could be picked off by them and is strong enough to be worth an entire team slot dedicated to them (which even that is a stretch) is gholdengo who is also a ghost type and thus immune to trapping. There is zero other reason to run one of the trappers.

Plus if they were big enough threats to be played around the immediate response will be running shed shell on whatever mon doesn't like being trapped.

If trapping was a remotely useful tool magnezone would be in OU.
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I agree, i dont think Dugtrio or Gothitelle are strong enough for ou even with their trapping abilities. So why should those abilities stay banned?
 
RainWaiv said:
tbf the complete removal of tera will fundamentally change the metagame. Since we can't really talk about NDOU, i'd like to pose a hypothetical list for what happens when tera is removed from SVOU.

-Kingambit can no longer tera out of its weaknesses to fire/fighting/ground, meaning it can be reliably forced out by tusk/zama/val. (also gets rid of possible TB shenanigans which isn't really a plus or a minus)
-Due to being unable to tera steel/dark, Zamazenta can no longer shed its weakness to psychic/fairy attacks, and can be more reliably beaten by fighting resists since it lacks a damage boost on its coverage.
-Gliscor's SD sets recieve a solid nerf due to being unable to get stab on facade/knock. It also cannot tera out of its ice weakness (although this is a smaller complaint as it wants to avoid teras unless absolutely necessary)
-Iron moth can't gain stab on dazzling gleam
-Most sweepers can no longer tera into their original types to secure KO's they otherwise wouldn't.
-Volcarona could potentially be re-suspected as it can no longer constantly flip matchups and be otherwise nigh-impossible to counter.

This is really just off the top of my head and idrc if tera gets banned or not. A teraless metagame would be more fun though (imo).

there's literally zero point in doing this as neither dug nor gothitelle are strong enough to meaningfully pick off specific mons with or without tera. It would add effectively nothing to the game since the one mon that could be picked off by them and is strong enough to be worth an entire team slot dedicated to them (which even that is a stretch) is gholdengo who is also a ghost type and thus immune to trapping. There is zero other reason to run one of the trappers.

Plus if they were big enough threats to be played around the immediate response will be running shed shell on whatever mon doesn't like being trapped.

If trapping was a remotely useful tool magnezone would be in OU.
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I told myself i wouldnt post in this hell hole just spectate but i saw this take and uh wow. So trapping like shadow tag and arena trap are broken and uncompetitive. If i need to explain to you why something is up with you but for example some people want shadow tag banned in ndubers and they dont have any new stag mons that we dont have access to.
 
tntblader said:
some people want shadow tag banned in ndubers
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I am people. I follow this thread for the couple posts a week that are not what can be politely described as utter tomfoolery. Trapping is absolutely stupid there and will be here. Part of it is trapping is as strong as what it enables, but tera makes it so much worse as well. Think about the fact that Gothitelle can easily trap Primal Groudon with Tera Water...or there Tera Ghost to trap both Chansey and Dozo (I'm assuming it can do it here as well + add Zamazenta to that list ig). Find the best chicken wings in the country and fly Finch out there to have them and maybe you can get these freed on April Fools Day.
 
Okay, I'm going to shut this down before this turns into another 3 page discussion that has to get shut down by the mods despite the fact it is an insanely dumb topic. If you genuinelly think arena trap/shadow tag are healthy, then please go to a doctor.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you have dugtrio, and you have raging bolt on a HO team. Let's say glimmora HO. You want to use dugtrio in order to remove the steel types that might be able to take a hit from raging bolt and threaten it back in return. Your opponent has iron treads, as there team is decently weak to raging bolt. You lead dugtrio, they lead iron treads to counter lead your glimmora (for the sake of this, they don't have booster speed since this is a balance team you are facing). Now, what can they do? They are trapped by dugtrio. They can do two things, either let iron treads drop to really low health from two bulldozes, effectively giving up their raging bolt answer, or tera to get out of the situation, but still lose their raging bolt answer. Oops, you have a win-win situation, as you can force them to either tera, or die. Very healthy mechanic that isn't incredibly destructive. But what about if they don't lead treads? Well, you could use that knowledge and lead glimmora, guarenteeing rocks and you still could win that exchange.

Another example, this time with gothitelle. You have a kingambit, and ofc, you want to trap the fighting types that wall it. So midgame, you send out kingambit on there glowking. They ofc will be scared shitless by it, and go into there tusk. But you double into gothitelle and oops, now there tusk is trapped. Same deal, tusk either has to 1. Get OHKO'd by scarf psychic and die or 2. Tera out of its fighting typing to a neutral typing, but now not answer kingambit nearly as well. So you again, still get a win-win scenario.

Let's not talk about unbanning trapping again. Doubt the mods will even consider unbanning it, but it just clogs the thread up again. The low BST of the mons will never matter, frankly it didn't matter in the past as they still had trash BST stats (dugtrio used to have 80 base attack, and yet it still worked way too well. Heck, even diglett worked and that was a LC mon).
 
Yeah this will get shut down, and I'm not going to pretend I know much about OU beyond a surface level...but Gothitelle bulky enough to more or less trap what it wants that doesn't have Taunt / Encore and keep in mind after Gothitelle traps something you're going to have to figure out how to deal with a healthy +6/+6 Gothitelle. To put things in perspective....

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gothitelle: 288-342 (83.9 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

No tera no nothing. I have no idea whether Kingambit runs no or max speed these days, but it requires a lot of investment to outspeed Gothitelle. This also isn't taking into consideration that oh x is blocked by y...yeah Gothitelle with tera probably handles it. Every sequence introduces coinflips and koing anything gives Gothitelle free entry, yet alone doubles. Trapping in any non Ubers tier is banned for a very good reason. Hell it was banned in SS Ubers. In our recent survey Gothitelle recieved a higher score than damn Zacian-C & Zygarde. Not going to make another post about this because as Heatranator said this is really off topic. So some questions:

1. Are there any offensive or defensive cores you've come to appreciate more in recent times compared to past metagames? Why?

2. What archetypes/structures do you feel are most ripe for exploration / development? Why?
 
Just how badly do y'all want this thread locked. I personally don't mind locking this until the next survey or end of next survey, but would rather not do that.

If you want some things to discuss, there's SCL finals, OUPL, OUFL, and both OU Seasonal and OU Last Chance circuit tours being in their 2nd to final rounds.

As a friendly and unfortunately a weekly reminder to not discuss the following:

- Pokemon, abilities, moves, anything that is Ubers and not in OU
- No theorymonning about Ubers if x move/item/ability/mechanic was banned instead of a mon
- No discussing National Dex or whatever happens in their tier
- No 1 liners or short replies. Use the reacts instead or write a longer post

Have a nice day and please don't make me lock this thread before the end of the year.
 
TPP said:
Just how badly do y'all want this thread locked. I personally don't mind locking this until the next survey or end of next survey, but would rather not do that.

If you want some things to discuss, there's SCL finals, OUPL, OUFL, and both OU Seasonal and OU Last Chance circuit tours being in their 2nd to final rounds.

As a friendly and unfortunately a weekly reminder to not discuss the following:

- Pokemon, abilities, moves, anything that is Ubers and not in OU
- No theorymonning about Ubers if x move/item/ability/mechanic was banned instead of a mon
- No discussing National Dex or whatever happens in their tier
- No 1 liners or short replies. Use the reacts instead or write a longer post

Have a nice day and please don't make me lock this thread before the end of the year.
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bro idgaf about boring ass tourneys

but yeah we really shouldn't be talking about stupid shit like trapping

anyways, im gonna make an actual post for once. im not fucking returning here i just wanna point smthn out

it's crazy that LoseToRU altered the course of history by saving stall by complete accident when jokingly voting DNB on kyurem. my man forever changed OU history by trolling and being silly. an icon we should all aspire to be.

thank god scor isn't banned, we can finally stop saying "this mon kills balance" while also fitting mainly on balance and bulkier itself lmao and have actual discussion about actually broken things

anyways bye for a while until the next funny happens!
 
RainebowValiant said:
bro idgaf about boring ass tourneys

but yeah we really shouldn't be talking about stupid shit like trapping

anyways, im gonna make an actual post for once. im not fucking returning here i just wanna point smthn out

it's crazy that LoseToRU altered the course of history by saving stall by complete accident when jokingly voting DNB on kyurem. my man forever changed OU history by trolling and being silly. an icon we should all aspire to be.

thank god scor isn't banned, we can finally stop saying "this mon kills balance" while also fitting mainly on balance and bulkier itself lmao and have actual discussion about actually broken things

anyways bye for a while until the next funny happens!
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Wtf I hate LoseToRU now

So this isn't a one-liner: I still feel like I'm seeing webs less than I used to. Doesn't seem as viable anymore despite what some people say.
 
As one of the #1 anti ban people i tried to tell you. I tried to be the voice of reason. There is a navigatable pathway to us getting two >redacted< back and it is through a tera blast ban.

A mod encouraged you to discuss kyurems current tera blast sets.

From the survey two months ago Tera Blast is the highest concern subject that has not yet been addressed.

Momentum for banning more mons is pretty dead and people want change and its well within grasp if we stay focused.

I should not have to be me being the voice of reason.


I tried araquanid and didn't like it. But I tried a new ribombee in spirit - instead of sash dedicated lead i instead have been running boots with u turn and holding back on my webs until I've worn down the opponent enough that I can be more certain specs stellar blast enam can break through. Pult meow and boots darkrai are the biggest obstacles. They're too fast >:| everything 1-2hkos enamorous
 
TPP said:
Just how badly do y'all want this thread locked. I personally don't mind locking this until the next survey or end of next survey, but would rather not do that.

If you want some things to discuss, there's SCL finals, OUPL, OUFL, and both OU Seasonal and OU Last Chance circuit tours being in their 2nd to final rounds.

As a friendly and unfortunately a weekly reminder to not discuss the following:

- Pokemon, abilities, moves, anything that is Ubers and not in OU
- No theorymonning about Ubers if x move/item/ability/mechanic was banned instead of a mon
- No discussing National Dex or whatever happens in their tier
- No 1 liners or short replies. Use the reacts instead or write a longer post

Have a nice day and please don't make me lock this thread before the end of the year.
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Who really cares about SCL Seasonal, OUPL, ABC OU, or whatever abbreviations people like to throw around?

I've been here for years and I still don't know what those abbreviations even mean. Also, what is there to discuss, other than how to properly handle some players or glazing them?

The only good thing what comes out of them are memes from ragequitters
 
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