Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Belated OU takes from a laddering session.

First, gotta shout out my GOAT AV Hoopa. Bro eats all the hits for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Pair it up with Alomomola and a powerful fast special attacker i.e Specs Pult or Specs Valiant and you just go to town on bulky teams. The amount of stall teams and copy-paste Dondozo-Cinderace Balance teams I've 6-0ed by just cycling Alomomola Wishes into Hoopa is delicious. Knock Off + Pychic Noise is truly a combo spawned by Satan, and its so easy to just dismantle entire teams with the two moves alone. It also helps that AV Hoopa shits all over that cringe af SubTect Kyurem set you see people whip out in ladder. Goated mon fr, you guys should try it out.

Second, is it just me or are the rockers in this tier just really bad? I've found it way too difficult to fit proper stealth rockers onto teams that don't overlap with Rapid Spin Tusk in either weaknesses or role but if I put rocks on Tusk then Tusk becomes way too passive to be playable. Garganacl and Lando are the only two rockers I've played with that seem to have any consistency at putting rocks up, but it is hella annoying to double stack water weaknesses with Great Tusk/Iron Treads to fit them in. How are yall fitting rocks and removal onto your teams? I don't wanna go full boots spam if I can't help it. Speaking of which, hazard removal is also hella bad in this tier. I don't understand how standard rocky helmet Great Tusk is so passive despite having a 131 attack stat, even on more offensive sets.

Finally, fuck Roaring Moon. Oh my god. Why do fools on the ladder always the exact Tera type they need to shit over my team with this clown. If I'm threating to kill it with Dragapult, they whip out Tera Fairy. If I try to thunderwave it with Zapdos, they whip out Tera Ground. Tera Flying is also annoying but manageable. I've literally begun to run random red cards on some of my bulky mons just to stop it and all the other cringe HO Booster Energy setup sweepers from running over my teams, but its still such a huge menace. How are you guys dealing with Roaring Goon on your teams?
 
AerionT said:
Supermajorities ensure that there is ample consensus and you don't make controversial changes. If the tier is goodish, you need to convince more than just half of the people to make changes
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Majority by definition is greater than half. Democracy is majoritarian. Kingambit, Kyurem, and Gliscor were all 55-59% ban among voters. More than “just half” voted them gone! They are still here.

The political parallels are only brought up because we are seeing this happen in real time globally. When democracy fails to respond to the desires of the populace, it backslides.
 
Sqookblooks said:
Belated OU takes from a laddering session.

First, gotta shout out my GOAT AV Hoopa. Bro eats all the hits for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Pair it up with Alomomola and a powerful fast special attacker i.e Specs Pult or Specs Valiant and you just go to town on bulky teams. The amount of stall teams and copy-paste Dondozo-Cinderace Balance teams I've 6-0ed by just cycling Alomomola Wishes into Hoopa is delicious. Knock Off + Pychic Noise is truly a combo spawned by Satan, and its so easy to just dismantle entire teams with the two moves alone. It also helps that AV Hoopa shits all over that cringe af SubTect Kyurem set you see people whip out in ladder. Goated mon fr, you guys should try it out.

Second, is it just me or are the rockers in this tier just really bad? I've found it way too difficult to fit proper stealth rockers onto teams that don't overlap with Rapid Spin Tusk in either weaknesses or role but if I put rocks on Tusk then Tusk becomes way too passive to be playable. Garganacl and Lando are the only two rockers I've played with that seem to have any consistency at putting rocks up, but it is hella annoying to double stack water weaknesses with Great Tusk/Iron Treads to fit them in. How are yall fitting rocks and removal onto your teams? I don't wanna go full boots spam if I can't help it. Speaking of which, hazard removal is also hella bad in this tier. I don't understand how standard rocky helmet Great Tusk is so passive despite having a 131 attack stat, even on more offensive sets.

Finally, fuck Roaring Moon. Oh my god. Why do fools on the ladder always the exact Tera type they need to shit over my team with this clown. If I'm threating to kill it with Dragapult, they whip out Tera Fairy. If I try to thunderwave it with Zapdos, they whip out Tera Ground. Tera Flying is also annoying but manageable. I've literally begun to run random red cards on some of my bulky mons just to stop it and all the other cringe HO Booster Energy setup sweepers from running over my teams, but its still such a huge menace. How are you guys dealing with Roaring Goon on your teams?
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I'm curious how important psychic noise has felt to you? Punching through SpD walls is pretty easy with 160 attack, I've been sort of assuming psychic is just better. Are there any matchups that standout where psychic noise helps?

I think Lokix has gotten popular for Mola vs Roaring Moon. I'm not sold though, the damage just isn't there. Even if you Tera Bug, flip turn chip and stealth rock, it isn't a guaranteed kill for first impression. Obviously you blow it up if it stays dark, but Roaring Moon has always been an expected Tera captain. Band helps but also is a terrible set.

Even Scarf Ditto doesn't really work because Roaring Moon sucks at killing itself. Resists knock, scarf blocks acrobatics and +1 earthquake doesn't ohko, and it teras flying when you choice lock into it.

The tried and true method this gen has been force it to Tera then sucker punch it with Gambit.
 
Sqookblooks said:
Second, is it just me or are the rockers in this tier just really bad? I've found it way too difficult to fit proper stealth rockers onto teams that don't overlap with Rapid Spin Tusk in either weaknesses or role but if I put rocks on Tusk then Tusk becomes way too passive to be playable. Garganacl and Lando are the only two rockers I've played with that seem to have any consistency at putting rocks up, but it is hella annoying to double stack water weaknesses with Great Tusk/Iron Treads to fit them in. How are yall fitting rocks and removal onto your teams? I don't wanna go full boots spam if I can't help it. Speaking of which, hazard removal is also hella bad in this tier. I don't understand how standard rocky helmet Great Tusk is so passive despite having a 131 attack stat, even on more offensive sets.
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Ting Lu is good. Rocks on one of the best Iron Moth and Bolt checks in the game. Taking 22% (after lefties) from SubTect Kyurem Freeze Dry and Whirlwinding it out is fun.
 
Sqookblooks said:
Belated OU takes from a laddering session.

First, gotta shout out my GOAT AV Hoopa. Bro eats all the hits for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Pair it up with Alomomola and a powerful fast special attacker i.e Specs Pult or Specs Valiant and you just go to town on bulky teams. The amount of stall teams and copy-paste Dondozo-Cinderace Balance teams I've 6-0ed by just cycling Alomomola Wishes into Hoopa is delicious. Knock Off + Pychic Noise is truly a combo spawned by Satan, and its so easy to just dismantle entire teams with the two moves alone. It also helps that AV Hoopa shits all over that cringe af SubTect Kyurem set you see people whip out in ladder. Goated mon fr, you guys should try it out.

Second, is it just me or are the rockers in this tier just really bad? I've found it way too difficult to fit proper stealth rockers onto teams that don't overlap with Rapid Spin Tusk in either weaknesses or role but if I put rocks on Tusk then Tusk becomes way too passive to be playable. Garganacl and Lando are the only two rockers I've played with that seem to have any consistency at putting rocks up, but it is hella annoying to double stack water weaknesses with Great Tusk/Iron Treads to fit them in. How are yall fitting rocks and removal onto your teams? I don't wanna go full boots spam if I can't help it. Speaking of which, hazard removal is also hella bad in this tier. I don't understand how standard rocky helmet Great Tusk is so passive despite having a 131 attack stat, even on more offensive sets.

Finally, fuck Roaring Moon. Oh my god. Why do fools on the ladder always the exact Tera type they need to shit over my team with this clown. If I'm threating to kill it with Dragapult, they whip out Tera Fairy. If I try to thunderwave it with Zapdos, they whip out Tera Ground. Tera Flying is also annoying but manageable. I've literally begun to run random red cards on some of my bulky mons just to stop it and all the other cringe HO Booster Energy setup sweepers from running over my teams, but its still such a huge menace. How are you guys dealing with Roaring Goon on your teams?
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You might want to try some Steel type rockers on your Tusk teams. Aside from Gambit, which is an option, mons like Skarmory and Tinkaton are good. Heatran is fairly niche. For something different, you could try Clef or maybe even Kleavor.

Also, I'm still waiting for the community to have their Gouging Fire moment with Roaring Moon.
 
CooolTrainer said:
This doesn’t answer my question. 60% also is not a supermajority. It’s not half of the playerbase voting it’s half of highly knowledgeable people, who we want to listen to. Is 59% not more than just half?
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60% is a supermajority. The definition of a supermajority is "a specified proportion of votes in excess of a simple majority, as required by a legislature or other body to pass certain types of measure". Two-thirds is a supermajority, but a supermajority does not necessarily have to be two-thirds.

RaikouLover said:
When democracy fails to respond to the desires of the populace, it backslides.
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Democracy and supermajorities are unrelated concepts. Democracy is defined as "a system in which laws, policies, leadership, and major undertakings of a state or other polity are directly or indirectly decided by the people." There are many instances in politics where supermajorities are required. For example, amending a country's Constitution often necessitates a supermajority to prevent the ruling political party from rewriting the entire Constitution at will. Similarly, various processes in the U.S. Senate or Congress require a supermajority—such as the impeachment of a sitting President, which requires two-thirds of the members to vote in favor.

While the percentage threshold for a supermajority is somewhat arbitrary, it should correspond to the importance of the decision being made. A 60% threshold, as traditionally used in OU, strikes a good balance between a simple majority and ensuring the security of a decision.

Please, stop with this discussion simply because you didn’t like the outcome regarding the suspects. When Solgaleo, Lugia, Palafin, etc., receive 55% support for unbanning, you’ll appreciate having a higher threshold in place.

Edit: I'm actually going to give you a concrete reason why 60% is a good threshold. If a suspect test to ban Gliscor passed with 51%, and straight away (for whatever reason) there was a suspect test to unban Gliscor, the decision could easily be reversed by simply having a different group participate in the process. With a 60% threshold, however, you would need to shift 20% of the population to the other side to overturn the decision. You reduce the influence of noise caused by a specific subset of players who voted by requiring a supermajority, since not everyone votes for every suspect.
 
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TurquoiseLink said:
I'm curious how important psychic noise has felt to you? Punching through SpD walls is pretty easy with 160 attack, I've been sort of assuming psychic is just better. Are there any matchups that standout where psychic noise helps?

I think Lokix has gotten popular for Mola vs Roaring Moon. I'm not sold though, the damage just isn't there. Even if you Tera Bug, flip turn chip and stealth rock, it isn't a guaranteed kill for first impression. Obviously you blow it up if it stays dark, but Roaring Moon has always been an expected Tera captain. Band helps but also is a terrible set.

Even Scarf Ditto doesn't really work because Roaring Moon sucks at killing itself. Resists knock, scarf blocks acrobatics and +1 earthquake doesn't ohko, and it teras flying when you choice lock into it.

The tried and true method this gen has been force it to Tera then sucker punch it with Gambit.
Click to expand...

I personally found Psychic Noise to be super useful at shutting down obnoxious substitute setup sweepers like Substitute Kyurem or Iron Moth that you might find on typical offense teams while still being more than powerful enough for the vast majority of targets you would click Psychic for. There are definitely offensive targets where the lack of power is noticeable like Zamazenta though but for most of the mons where I find I want Psychic for are either better Knock Off targets anyway or are dealt with just fine with Psychic Noise.

However, the biggest application is definitely in shutting down Regenerator pivots and Gliscor. I think most bulky balance/stall teams tend to have Gliscor as their designated Knock Off switch-in and Pyschic Noise is a better button to click on Gliscor by virtue of shutting down Poison Heal. Psychic in contrast is only a 3HKO without any hazards on the field which is far from ideal early game because Gliscor can Toxic you and then slowly come back from hell with Protect. With Psychic Noise though, Gliscor doesn't make designated progress as easily so you can just pivot into Boots Alo and then flip turn back to bring Hoopa Unbound or another breaker in. Same deal with Regenerator Pivots like Alo or any other designated Knock Off switch-in since shutting down recovery usually forces a switch-out that you can exploit.

That's not to say that Psychic couldn't put in work against Gliscor Stall or bulky Balances. But I personally find that you have to be way more on point in controlling the hazard game when you are using Psychic while Hoopa Psychic Noise + Knock Off in conjunction with Regenerator Pivot + other strong breaker leads to the most free MU's against do-nothing bulky teams.

Also I might try Lokix out against Roaring Goon. But this mon is still lowkey a warcrime.
 
RainebowValiant said:
So 50% + 1 votes don't occur. If you make the system a majority, things can be banned when they're only BARELY the majority of votes. It's better to force a supermajority so it's what as much of the community actually wants

Yall stop posting bait takes I can't stop myself from replying to them :sob:
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It's not a bait and no need to laugh at me it was just a question, even if I understand it can seems stupid.
 
:Kingambit:

Kingambit @ Choice Band
Level: 100
Adamant Nature
Tera Type: Fairy
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Def / 48 Spe
- Tera Blast
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Been running this set on ladder and it's been doing pretty well. The Defensive stats allow it to survive two Ivy Cudgels from Wogerpon after Rocks damage and the rest is put into Attack and Speed.

Here are some of the more interesting calcs I've seen while running this set

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ninetales-Alola in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 372-440 (106.2 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 300-354 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 386-456 (104 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Finchinator said:
Supermajorities to some extent are needed. You can argue 55% over 60% and I already expressed willingness to discuss this next generation, but being upset at the concept is not worth it.
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imo arguing over what the supermajority percentage should be exactly is pointless and a waste of time since it's completely arbitrary. I do think the idea of a supermajority is productive to argue about, since a supermajority could "make sure" controversial suspects have a higher chance of being what the playerbase actually wants, but on the flip side it could also keep broken mons in OU that shouldn't be there in the future.
 
Finchinator said:
Supermajorities to some extent are needed. You can argue 55% over 60% and I already expressed willingness to discuss this next generation, but being upset at the concept is not worth it.

Band Kingambit defeats the bulk of the reason of using it and is also not worth it.
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Fair enough! Not so much upset at the concept but I didn’t really see it as necessary. Would be interested to see next gen.
 
JackRG said:
could you elaborate here (not disagreeing with you I'm just curious)?
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The status quo is the default and it shouldn’t just take 1 extra vote to overturn it, especially with how reactionary the community is. Ubers uses 66.6%, but they’re extreme due to the nature of Ubers. We has 60%. People can argue for slightly smaller margins for sure, but some semblance of a supermajority is good.
 
RaikouLover said:
Majority by definition is greater than half. Democracy is majoritarian. Kingambit, Kyurem, and Gliscor were all 55-59% ban among voters. More than “just half” voted them gone! They are still here.

The political parallels are only brought up because we are seeing this happen in real time globally. When democracy fails to respond to the desires of the populace, it backslides.
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And if the threshold was 55% they would have been banned and the tier would look very different. But because it isn't, the ban% needed is 60%, those mons are still here. I don't know what else you want
 
AerionT said:
And if the threshold was 55% they would have been banned and the tier would look very different. But because it isn't, the ban% needed is 60%, those mons are still here. I don't know what else you want
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You just said it; the tier should reflect the will of the voters. 55% is a clear, “non controversial” majority. 58% (Kyurem) 56% (Gliscor) even more so. 58-42 is not a close result. It is a travesty that 40 something minority keeps winning, just as they have been all generation. And it’s been consistently showing up in the mediocre survey ratings.

I’m curious how often this mythical 50.1%-49.9%, 1-2 vote tiering result has actually happened. We’ve failed to ban a helluva lot more shit that a clear majority of voters wanted out of the tier.
 
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RaikouLover said:
You just said it; the tier should reflect the will of the voters. 55% is a clear, “non controversial” majority. 58% (Kyurem) 56% (Gliscor) even more so. 58-42 is not a close result. It is a travesty that 40 something minority keeps winning, just as they have been all generation. And it’s been consistently showing up in the mediocre survey ratings.

I’m curious how often this mythical 50.1%-49.9%, 1-2 vote tiering result has actually happened. We’ve failed to ban a helluva lot more shit that a clear majority of voters wanted out of the tier.
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status quo is status quo bruv

i get ur point but dont be actin like you dont know that knowing where the threshold is skews the vote in a certain way

like 50% is one thing, but with 60% youre gonna get more undecided voters going ban
 
RaikouLover said:
You just said it; the tier should reflect the will of the voters. 55% is a clear, “non controversial” majority. 58% (Kyurem) 56% (Gliscor) even more so. 58-42 is not a close result. It is a travesty that 40 something minority keeps winning, just as they have been all generation. And it’s been consistently showing up in the mediocre survey ratings.

I’m curious how often this mythical 50.1%-49.9%, 1-2 vote tiering result has actually happened. We’ve failed to ban a helluva lot more shit that a clear majority of voters wanted out of the tier.
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Personally, I would not decrease the ban threshold to 55%. With a 55% threshold, it means you only need the ban side to have 25% more voters than the do not ban side, which is not a strong consensus, the entire purpose of having a supermajority threshold in the first place. With a 60% ban threshold, you need 50% more ban voters than do not ban voters to ban something, and that's more of a strong consensus.

Kyurem would have been banned during its second suspect test if not for a troll vote even in spite of the cheating, and that doesn't show that the threshold is too high but that someone didn't take the process seriously enough thinking it was a throwaway vote. It was a serious lapse of judgement given how close some of the results have been this generation.
 
AerionT said:
You need to put the barrier somewhere. Asking "why 60? why not 59? or 61?" is not the godlike rebuttal you think it is.
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I think you’re misunderstanding me, that’s probably my fault. I don’t think it’s a godlike rebuttal at all. But that’s my point actually, the only non arbitrary number is 50%+1 and the answer as to why it’s not seems to be just because people agree it needs to be more. I was just curious about the reasoning. At the end of the day it’s not changing, it doesn’t matter that much, and the council has better things to focus on anyway.
 
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