Volc was an amazing wincon on balance and served these teams very well by blanket checking physical attackers and leveraging this into a win with quiver dance. Volc appeared on many successful balance teams when it was legal and often was used with Hex mons like Ghold and Pult
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
if you are using a mon with 85 hp and 65 defense as ur physical check you are doing something wrong, LMAO. Let's stop pretending like volc isn't a cheesy HO mon
No, entirely unrelated. This was just me standing up for the community. Big things likely to come around December 12-13th give or take a handful of days
I do not understand how a person can ladder, watch tournaments, look at RMTs, and conclude that Volc only fits on HO. You are not living in reality
Volc fit into every archetype to some extent. That’s just historical fact
of course it CAN fit onto other archetypes, but the vast majority of the time it is used it is on hyper offense. Volc being used on a few select balance teams doesn't mean it makes the style better, which was the point I was trying to make
yeah, its almost like one of these has magic guard and can afford to invest a lot more in bulk, who would have thought
bulky dragon volc was the strongest balance wincon in the game when volc was legal
even on balance it is a cheese sweeper, lmao
This is simply not true for Volc in SV (or SS for that matter). We saw Volc on stall and bulky offense plenty. HO wasn’t even most popular archetype for it at various points.
I'm actually curious, why was volc used on stall (I actually didn't know this enlighten me)
bug/fire is a decent defensive typing w boots and flame body deters u-turn and knock off from being freely clicked, also it's a good offensive game piece that can pick up a win after things that threaten it are stalled out and dealt with
Volc was used on stall a lot historically.
In SM, it was done to check Grass Spam (Rilla + Kart) and Mega Mawile — MMaw in particular was hard for these teams to handle otherwise. It did mandate multiple Defog users back then.
With Boots in SS, it became a better option on stall as a win condition that resisted fairy, Grass (similar matchup dynamic to prior gen), and was less reliant of support. It was able to help with some longer games. It didn’t always fit though.
In SV, Volcarona was B- on the Big Stall Stall Viability Rankings before it was banned. It was mainly for role compression as it soft checked certain Kyurem, Valiant, Enamorus, Rillaboom, etc. while making Gambit and other physical attackers think twice about clicking contact moves. The image below is taken from their server from earlier in 2024 before the ban. It was definitely better on HO than Stall, but it saw a ton of usage on BO and even some on balance as well. Volcarona was never archetype locked (maybe in BW at times, but even then not fully).
Interesting! Thats actually pretty cool. I still think its fair to say more often that not, volc is used on offensive teams, but it certainly had more of a place on other builds than I originally thought.
I do like Corv, but IDK how to feel about it in the metagame.
On one hand, its got a great typing, some nice tools in Pressure, U-Turn, ID + BP, Spite, can largely negate hazards, and has some solid MUs into some great Pokemon like Gliscor, Pecharunt, Lokix, + does decent into a few others like Valiant, Kyurem, Rocks Tusk, etc. On the other hand, its still very prone to passive damage (from Rocks + potential chip from U-Turn vs Helmet mons), struggles to make progress on its own (due to no T-Wave, Wisp, Flame Body, Knock Off, etc. + its Helmet being prone to being Knocked Off), and most of the Pokemon it checks having some ways around it (i.e. Iron Valiant can run Thunderbolt, Zamazenta can run Roar, etc.). I also think Corv is the Pokemon thats probably most hurt by Tera as a mechanic since it can limit its progress making abilities vs setup sweepers even more.
I never really thought Gholdengo was the dealbreaker for Corv like others. Sure, it blocks Defog, but its not immediately dropping Corv with most of its standard options and Corv being able to pop its Balloon is still nice for various partners like Ting-Lu and Gliscor. That said, IMO its Landorus-T MU is pretty damn bad, as Lando-T prevents Corv from recovering with Taunt and will deal a net 28% to it between Helmet chip + Rocks every time it goes for that line. There are tons of other MUs where its annoying to click U-Turn, like against Gliscor + Clef teams since the sticky barb will easily transfer to Corv. Other mons like Raging Bolt and Garg can be annoying for it depending on the situation as well. There are many Pokemon that I feel have an easier time making Progress than Corviknight, like Skarmory with Spikes + Whirlwind, Moltres / Zapdos with status + Roar, and Gliscor between Spikes, Toxic, and Knock Off.
On the flipside, I will say that Corv just has excellent defensive synergy with a lot of Pokemon. IMO, its a great partner for a lot of offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, Kyurem, Raging Bolt & Hydrappl given its ability to pivot many of these Pokemon in safely with its U-Turn + having good defensive synergy with them generally. It also works fine with several defensive mons like Clefable, Clodsire, Gliscor, since, its pressure ability + typing is nice in longer games.
I think some of the newer sets we are seeing are somewhat nice for its general viability. I gave Spdef Bulk Up Cloak a try a while back, and it performed a bit better than I was expecting. The Spite Protect set on stall is also cool as a way to PP stall certain Pokemon. I think sets like these open up a fair deal more depth to Corv's game, and are cool to see this late into the generation.
On one hand, its got a great typing, some nice tools in Pressure, U-Turn, ID + BP, Spite, can largely negate hazards, and has some solid MUs into some great Pokemon like Gliscor, Pecharunt, Lokix, + does decent into a few others like Valiant, Kyurem, Rocks Tusk, etc. On the other hand, its still very prone to passive damage (from Rocks + potential chip from U-Turn vs Helmet mons), struggles to make progress on its own (due to no T-Wave, Wisp, Flame Body, Knock Off, etc. + its Helmet being prone to being Knocked Off), and most of the Pokemon it checks having some ways around it (i.e. Iron Valiant can run Thunderbolt, Zamazenta can run Roar, etc.). I also think Corv is the Pokemon thats probably most hurt by Tera as a mechanic since it can limit its progress making abilities vs setup sweepers even more.
I never really thought Gholdengo was the dealbreaker for Corv like others. Sure, it blocks Defog, but its not immediately dropping Corv with most of its standard options and Corv being able to pop its Balloon is still nice for various partners like Ting-Lu and Gliscor. That said, IMO its Landorus-T MU is pretty damn bad, as Lando-T prevents Corv from recovering with Taunt and will deal a net 28% to it between Helmet chip + Rocks every time it goes for that line. There are tons of other MUs where its annoying to click U-Turn, like against Gliscor + Clef teams since the sticky barb will easily transfer to Corv. Other mons like Raging Bolt and Garg can be annoying for it depending on the situation as well. There are many Pokemon that I feel have an easier time making Progress than Corviknight, like Skarmory with Spikes + Whirlwind, Moltres / Zapdos with status + Roar, and Gliscor between Spikes, Toxic, and Knock Off.
On the flipside, I will say that Corv just has excellent defensive synergy with a lot of Pokemon. IMO, its a great partner for a lot of offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, Kyurem, Raging Bolt & Hydrappl given its ability to pivot many of these Pokemon in safely with its U-Turn + having good defensive synergy with them generally. It also works fine with several defensive mons like Clefable, Clodsire, Gliscor, since, its pressure ability + typing is nice in longer games.
I think some of the newer sets we are seeing are somewhat nice for its general viability. I gave Spdef Bulk Up Cloak a try a while back, and it performed a bit better than I was expecting. The Spite Protect set on stall is also cool as a way to PP stall certain Pokemon. I think sets like these open up a fair deal more depth to Corv's game, and are cool to see this late into the generation.
It has a good matchup vs notable problem mons for stall like Rillaboom, Meowscarada, and Ghold as well as a really good matchup vs Kingambit, and more bulk and raw damage than Talonflame while still having access to wisp. it also provides an alternate wincon and forces the other player to play more reactively by threatening a QD snowball, QD also checking setup the same way CM blissey does, which can be key role compression. Morning sun also provides recovery without creating a ground vulnerability or lessening a grass resistance. Tera is customizable to deal with future sight or whatever else. The usual set was flamethrower/fiery, wisp, QD, and morning sun
Like meow is a giga fraud, like it just misses out on kills it should be getting half the time
Like when a mon that is OU tiered has some really good UU mons who happen to be good in OU (Weavile and Tink come to mind immediately) it should probably drop
you still have to predict, probably lowkey should drop to just straight b because with the right support and circumstances it can be a big threat
I think rilla is a B rank mon straight up for how annoying it can be to use but for how threatening it can be in the right matchup
Before the 2nd DLC, I believe, entry hazards seemed to be a large point of concern. The Gliscor ban and conversation around Gholdengo and Spikes/Heavy-Duty Boots seemed to be one of the biggest topics at that time and leading up to it.
I was wondering how the hazard metagame is considered now.
From my perspective, a meta with more hazards would skew towards a more offensive tier. The way I thought of it was: More Hazards means Less Switch-ins and Less Switch-ins means a faster paced game where defensive backbones would break apart more rapidly. To combat this, teams would use Heavy-Duty Boots, which would negate hazard's effect on switching in, but when HDB are used you sacrifice the ability for another item. In some cases that is fine and makes sense anywhere. Moltres being 4x weak to rocks being a key example, but other 'mons would rather have Leftovers or something else for more longevity or utility.
Of course there is the idea that Boots vs. Lefties is based on your teams hazard control and you don't need Boots. But this generation has been known for its poor hazard control. Mainly in how restricted the spread of hazard control moves is, but also how strong the spinblockers are. (I was going to have a detailed and statistical portion here, but this forum was locked when I had the energy).
So to wrap up,
In my eyes, the abundance of hazards helps guide the meta to be more offensive(not the main factor maybe, but definitely a factor) and, from what I've seen, that isn't favorable for quite a few people. I was wondering the opinions/understanding of players better than me(most if not everyone here) on the matter of Entry Hazards.
I was wondering how the hazard metagame is considered now.
From my perspective, a meta with more hazards would skew towards a more offensive tier. The way I thought of it was: More Hazards means Less Switch-ins and Less Switch-ins means a faster paced game where defensive backbones would break apart more rapidly. To combat this, teams would use Heavy-Duty Boots, which would negate hazard's effect on switching in, but when HDB are used you sacrifice the ability for another item. In some cases that is fine and makes sense anywhere. Moltres being 4x weak to rocks being a key example, but other 'mons would rather have Leftovers or something else for more longevity or utility.
Of course there is the idea that Boots vs. Lefties is based on your teams hazard control and you don't need Boots. But this generation has been known for its poor hazard control. Mainly in how restricted the spread of hazard control moves is, but also how strong the spinblockers are. (I was going to have a detailed and statistical portion here, but this forum was locked when I had the energy).
So to wrap up,
In my eyes, the abundance of hazards helps guide the meta to be more offensive(not the main factor maybe, but definitely a factor) and, from what I've seen, that isn't favorable for quite a few people. I was wondering the opinions/understanding of players better than me(most if not everyone here) on the matter of Entry Hazards.
you've piqued my curiosity
in what world do we live in where Altaria has (or had) a stronger niche on Stall than Garganacal?
It's more that garganacl doesn't really mesh well with stall. It absolutely needs hazard removal, is incredibly knock weak and is more of a balance mon in general. Salt cure and stealth rocks are nice progress makers, but the big issue is how much of a tera hog Garg is. Stall commonly wants to save tera for specific mons like gambit, ghold and waterpon, and Garg does not mesh well with that. It can work on stall, but its difficult.
Edit: Except for Carl The Turtle, but that's cause he's cracked.
Altaria on the other hand has defog, natural cure, roost and a variety of options such as wisp, haze, perish song+fire spin and a multitude of attacks to help with mons like Heatran and glowking that might be annoying. It's not amazing on stall, but it does have a decent niche.
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Why is meowscarada still rotting here whilst weavile, skeledirge and tinkaton are conquering UU despite having valuable niches in higher tiers, bro might be gen 9’s electivire
no ones going to address that bro said volcarona was used to check rillaboom in sun and moon
Because Meow is still actually usable, even if not particularly spectacular. It's defenitely getting more usage than many would expect, but to compare it to DPP Electivire is a ginormous stretch. Unless that was done solely for hyperbole's sake, in which case, fair enough.
Sorry, I misspoke. Meant to say Bulu, which was used for Grassy Terrain that Gen
Its usable but its not good, still debatably a noob trap mon as much as it pains me to say it