Yeah pivot sets feel really good right now dazzling gleam in particular. I also like being able to snipe tusk and bolt in one slot is pretty nice. It still differentiates itself from bolt as a pivot with its fantastic speed tier.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
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Although I didn’t really have time for this suspect run I did play a bit in the beginning. I’d say at least offensively it felt extremely underwhelming. I thought I was gonna stay honestly and it seems it was fairly close to that happening it feel short of the super majority. Some will say it didn’t really add nothing to the tier but I didn’t feel it was overwhelmingly strong enough to stay banned factoring in all its sets from all out attacker, Nasty plot, hazard lead and whatever else. Oh well lol.
I asked sealoo on his wall during the suspect: "official policy would be 50% +1 but we I decided that 60% is better for us"
I can't believe Deoxys-S got banned while Z Dragapult is still around. I don't know what hope there is for any Pokémon getting unbanned, which is kind of sad.
Honestly I really didn’t care about the results of this suspect. Now don’t get me wrong, Deo-S is not broken and isn’t border line broken. It’s just a very niche mon that isn’t very good. Its lead set(probably its best one) in my opinion is out classes by lead treads, thanks to rocks and steel beam. And its psychic terrain set is niche and very matchup fishy. I just didn’t like what it brought to the tier and just took a backseat and watched. I see it as having a similar thing happen as did in SV Ou, just going between Ou and Uu constantly. Anyways let’s all hope for a Roaring Moon suspect.
Except, it was never communicated in the OP of the suspect thread that the unban percentage would be 60%, so reasonably one could have assumed that NatDex followed OU here, or at least that is a more reasonable assumption that NatDex sets its own standards.
"Well obviously you should need a supermajority to change the status quo, the status quo should be favored!" motherfuckers when an unban supermajority is required and fails to pass
(they make a Policy Review thread implying the council is manipulating results by putting the SAME FUCKING STANDARD for a ban VS unban lmaoooo)
If anything a 60% unban is more consistent than the general policy for CGOU tiers which is that actually, we care about the status quo, except when it comes to things that have already been found to be banworthy in the past, we give those a free-er pass!
And this isn't to say I think Deoxys-Speed is super broken or anything, it's that it's bizarre how much backlash this is getting.
(they make a Policy Review thread implying the council is manipulating results by putting the SAME FUCKING STANDARD for a ban VS unban lmaoooo)
If anything a 60% unban is more consistent than the general policy for CGOU tiers which is that actually, we care about the status quo, except when it comes to things that have already been found to be banworthy in the past, we give those a free-er pass!
And this isn't to say I think Deoxys-Speed is super broken or anything, it's that it's bizarre how much backlash this is getting.
Have you considered what it feels like to be anyone in Gen 9 who has wanted something to be banned and it gets a 55-59% ban vote
This is literally just the flip side of the coin
By far the biggest problem with SV Ou is not much has happened. Every vote that wasn’t something obviously broken has been a very close DNB.
I have come to the conclusion that all the people who voted ban on Deoxys are just Great Tusks in disguise. They gotta make sure that there isn't a single hazard lead that threatens them! All that we do is governed by a legion of Great Tusks, it's all a conspiracy!
I’d gladly be governed by Great Tusk, pretty chill balanced mon. One of the healthiest ever created.
Well, except that time we didn't ban Tera. Don't forget the other time we didn't ban Tera!
Anyways, a Roaring Moon suspect would be cool, this community seems very fickle though so I have no idea how it'll turn out. I think Roaring Moon would be fine in ND OU without Tera to evade its sizable amount of weaknesses.
Suspect result is quite absurd, really discouraging prospects for future unbans if a mon NEARLY EVERYONE ON BOTH SIDES agreed was mid stayed banned because people hate change (not a strawman, people have outright said this). Unban candidates are fighting an incredibly uphill battle when being judged by a playerbase so inclined to ban any drop that would rank above B+ on the vr and is good on hyper offense (a playstyle that might need help anyway???).
Strongly, strongly suggest the 60% threshold for unbanning things that were qbed is rediscussed. Offical tiering policy already does this, so there's clearly merit to the idea, and it can prevent unserious verdicts on clearly not broken shit (deoxys wasn't even a cheese no value mon either) like this from occurring in the future.
60% is simply excessive, at least for things that were qbed. Sincerely hope deoxys is rediscussed in the distant future because that mon should be OU without a doubt and no one would bat an eye after a week if it got quickdropped with the others
I'll still get reqs for the other suspects... but this is extremely disappointing. If anyone who is badged reads this, I hope a policy review thread on the threshold is made. I, along with many others, want to see Roaring Moon in OU but unlike mid Deoxys, bro is actually gonna be a big threat so people are gonna lose to it on day 1 having never built for it and then vote ban. Reqs in this tier is also too easy but thats another discussion
Strongly, strongly suggest the 60% threshold for unbanning things that were qbed is rediscussed. Offical tiering policy already does this, so there's clearly merit to the idea, and it can prevent unserious verdicts on clearly not broken shit (deoxys wasn't even a cheese no value mon either) like this from occurring in the future.
60% is simply excessive, at least for things that were qbed. Sincerely hope deoxys is rediscussed in the distant future because that mon should be OU without a doubt and no one would bat an eye after a week if it got quickdropped with the others
I'll still get reqs for the other suspects... but this is extremely disappointing. If anyone who is badged reads this, I hope a policy review thread on the threshold is made. I, along with many others, want to see Roaring Moon in OU but unlike mid Deoxys, bro is actually gonna be a big threat so people are gonna lose to it on day 1 having never built for it and then vote ban. Reqs in this tier is also too easy but thats another discussion
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As the ruler of the sun nation, I have made a pact with the Great Tusk legion. Great tusk has stated that those accusations are straight up lies, and that it was the Landorus-T Legion trying to frame them.
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Still think it's funny that I have yet to see any argument that justifies the idea that changing the status quo of the tier should be 60% on one side, 50% on the other.
Why should one brand of status quo change be easier to implement than the other?
A PR thread has already been made and it's cringe. How many times have pro-ban people for suspects this Gen had 55-59% ban vote and not gotten their way?
Now people are freaking out because 1 mon didn't go the way of the majority vote? Saying the council is rigging shit? Calling to undo the process?
Fucking wild how people become Pokemon Lawyers all the time, people care so much more about making sure every Pokemon is in OU than actually if it makes the tier better or not.
Because let's be honest. Deoxys Speed is NOT the hill to die on lmfao. I am truly centrist on it, don't care either way, but that's exactly it- there really isn't much lost. Either an HO cringelord or a nothingburger that drops to UU, a tier that surely would also either be HO cringelord and probably be UUBL or something.
This isn't some gluemon we needed, it doesn't actually add some great checks to the tier that are necessary, it's a mono-Psychic frail mon with hazards + an NP Z Focus set. This mon was not that important. There are many other mons to care way more about.
Lastly, some people made fun of me for the take that you should just quickdrop Pokemon and then wait to see if there is naturally a want for a suspect, rather than just tying those process together, and I'm glad to be instantly vindicated.
A few weeks is never enough to judge any threat that isn't obviously ludicrously broken, and if the mon wasn't immediately suspected I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have even gotten a suspect again. But if you're gonna give opportunities like this, you're gambling that people irrationally vote/make rash decisions, because that is going to be what happens: People just go off vibes.
If you actually want Pokemon like Roaring Moon to drop, you shouldn't advocate for a retest, and even if you think it will be super broken you should at least prefer that because:
1. We can start a suspect if it is that broken anyways, very quickly, and continue from there.
2. If not, then we simply can do other tiering matters as need be, making things more flexible.
And if you really hate the 60% unban supermajority, maybe consider the 60% ban majority being cringe as fuck too.
You have got to have the most obnoxious posts on this thread and that's saying a lot. At least others are attempting to contribute to the discussion meanwhile you over here trying to spark an imaginary fire against the imaginary hostile council that you feel is targeting you for being actively hostile and annoying toward the community. You're annoying
Nobody actually cares about Deoxys-speed itself in this situation. That was never the point and half your drivel-fueled argument is off that. Based off this PR thread here, it was pitched to make retests for unbanning a simple 50%+1 majority, to prevent council manipulation by technicality cases. I'll explain it simply for people who don't like reading very much.
Say council hated zamazenta with a passion and they wanted it out of here. In theory, if they just pulled a regular suspect, they'd need a 60% majority to send to to ubers. However, if they decided to instant ban it into suspect testing it back down under the guise of making a tour less toxic; they'd only need 40% support to keep it in Ubers; so getting what they want is significantly easier.
This is the official reasoning the rule exists for official metagames. Natdex isn't beholden to following official tiering policy; no. But when its a ruling that exists to prevent technical voting manipulation these type of rules should be followed or it makes you look really fuckin bad. Of course, this wasn't intentional. I have zero reason to presume there was any purposeful moves to keep deoxys-speed of all frauds locked up from the higher ups, which is why calling for the result to be adjusted to what it was supposed to be is more reasonable than it first sounds. The decision from the higher ups to double down and not adjust it when they found out the mistake is what I have an issue with, as I eluded to in the current PR thread in question.
You can think what you want about the 60% majority thing, I think it's a little corny too but I understand why it exists. But dismissing/mocking arguments being made in the PR thread because you miss the point entirely is a bad look.
If there is one thing I hope to see come from this Generation for all of smogon, it’s a changing of the supermajority. I know in SV Ou mons like Kyurem and Gliscor barely stayed in Ou despite multiple suspects each, leading to a prolonged stale meta-game. There is clear still support and was support multiple times for their ban, but they missed the 60% by 1% or 2%, or in Kyurem’s case a singular vote.
Now I do think there should be a supermajority (for both banning and unbanning a Pokémon), because there needs to be prove to be a good amount more support for change in a tier in my opinion. A 50% + 1 could lead to a very divisive pokemon (like Palafin in SV Ou right now) to be unbanned with the smallest of majorities. However 60% is definitely too much. I feel as though 55% is pretty much the ideal number. It’s still higher than 50% + 1, but isn’t as difficult to get as a 60% supermajority, while still proving their is significant enough community backing.
I don't care about this scenario because it hasn't happened here + just make a PR thread if this type of bad behavior happens + I don't actually care if we give the Council more power, either 2 things: 1. Create a rule that solves this loophole with a PR thread rather than creating an even worse system (Which GUARANTEES bullshit with every suspect like this, not a chance of foul play) or 2. actually give Councils more power to idk, be the Councils of their tiers
Nah
It isn't more reasonable, it's unreasonable to change the result post-vote and then make the results invalid
If you understand why the 60% supermajority for a Ban exists (to protect the status quo) then you should understand why a 50% simple majority for an Unban is bad (failing to protect the status quo)
I don't miss the point, it's just a bad point. Caring about hypothetical loopholes when you can then just make a PR thread about the loophole, rather than this just being applied normally (it was literally a normal Suspect scenario) isn't an equivalent.
Making the requirement to unban shit way easier than the requirement to ban shit is corny when the 60% supermajority has been defended to death by people as "protecting the status quo of the tier", then the status quo is protected with an unban with the same % required, and then people freak out. I'll not agree with any proposal to make it 50% Unban unless that proposal includes 50% Ban, but I also know you don't GAF about my opinion so W/E
You can't just say you "don't care" about the reasoning behind something and proceed to dismiss it without offering any alternative solutions to it - the reasoning is still valid despite the manipulation not occurring here, since it can happen in the future with a more unscrupulous council. It's also not "guaranteed bullshit", far from it - SV OU has used this system, and even if we implemented it, it wouldn't change any results besides Deo-S.
So you're saying unofficial tiers can just go with whatever policies they want and not face drops in their reputation for it? That's an interesting argument, I'll say that.
If you understand the reasoning behind the simple majority for an unban (prevent potential council interference, whether malicious and intentional or accidental), you should be able to actually give good arguments against it.
Except there already has been a tiering policy thread about this loophole and we came up with this solution! This is the exact solution that tiering policy dictates all official tiers follow, and while we are not an official tier, we should align as close to official tiers as possible. This is quite literally not the "normal" application of tiering thresholds.
Maybe people don't give a fuck about your opinion because you aren't justifying it with good enough arguments besides creating a false equivalency. Cheers.
With the standard ruleset done in SVOU, if council quickbanned zamazenta because they really hated it under the guise of making a tour less toxic, it's still bypassing the standard 60% majority you would've needed for a more standard suspect, going from 60% to 50%. In either scenario you still end up with a large chunk of your playerbase frustrated because of "malicious" council actions. Yes 50% +1 mitigates this corruption slightly but it still remains and has the bi-product of lowering the threshold of very controversial unban suspects like Palafin in SV OU, therefore making it more of a toss up in terms of community concensus for the gain of insignificantly improving the bureaucratic side of things.
Will respond to your claims in PR at some point.
Also open message to posters here: let's treat people who have differing opinions with respect instead of just making some one-liner response.
This post makes the assumption the official tiering policy is good, and I do not agree with that. It's bad.
The current Palafin CGOUexample is a GREAT example of how, yes, every single suspect that is 50% for Unban is automatically pretty bullshit.
We have a generation where almost every Pokemon hits a 55-59% ban percentage, but nothing happens as a result. A generation full of drama because nothing is able to happen, not because a solid majority doesn't want things to happen, but because it's not hitting the exact supermajority or above.
Then you get the unban chance for a Pokemon like Palafin, where a simple majority is all that is needed to get something down that, if broken, and not absurd to the point of something like Ursaluna BloodMoon, has a good chance of getting suspected and still not hitting that supermajority on Ban.
To actually think that unofficial tiers are weird/bad for not going along with policy, you have to actually assume that official policy is good- I don't, it's bad. Unofficial tiers pushing the boundaries is great, and NatDex has done it before- SWSH NatDex's great Kokoloko Tiering period would not have gone through under CG Tiering official policy, but official policy can literally just fail to get things done.
I don't care that hard about potential "foul play" because I see any Unban suspect as Foul play. On top of that, I also just don't care about giving the Council more power, and think the Council should have more power by default.
I agree. Really I do think 50%+1 should be the standard for banning stuff so this 10% issue isnt present. But to quote UT from IS "dont let perfect be the enemy of good" sure its flawed, but its still a good thing and 10% better is 10% better so
Honestly I am sympathetic that the situation itself happened, but I can't defend the handling of the discovery of the mistake tis all. I understand why the choice was made, I just inherently disagree with it. As for the highly controversial aspect, sure. I do agree with the sentiment, but I think the benefits of the anti-corruption aspect to outweigh that part. Sometimes 50%+1 suspects will see results being shitty, SVRU okidogi's broken ass scoring 49%/50% and then rising next shift anyways, but in an ideal world stuff like Palafin will be voted on with the "right decision" made. The main benefit is givin the players the power to decide as opposed to strictly council etc ykno. I'll be lookin forward to that reply whenever it comes
I think Deo speed is mid as hell but I can't be mad about the result because I didn't bother getting recs. If you're in the boat of "can't believe this happened!" and you didn't get recs, well. you can't complain lol.
The 60% threshold is fine. The difference between this and 50+1 is so small that it really, truly doesn't matter. The real solution to these perceived "wow this goes against community sentiment" votes is to not be a bum and go get recs.
The 60% threshold is fine. The difference between this and 50+1 is so small that it really, truly doesn't matter. The real solution to these perceived "wow this goes against community sentiment" votes is to not be a bum and go get recs.