(Some already have been to egregious/repeat offenders, too)
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Making a post so bad multiple fucking council members have to step in what am I doing
Anyways why the fuck is corv in B+. Bro is better than lokix and enam, both A- mons. Corv should be A- or even A tbh, it's an insanely common and powerful defensive pivot in OU usable on stall, balance, and even some bulkier offenses.
Anyways why the fuck is corv in B+. Bro is better than lokix and enam, both A- mons. Corv should be A- or even A tbh, it's an insanely common and powerful defensive pivot in OU usable on stall, balance, and even some bulkier offenses.
I'll focus purely on OU, as I'm not familiar with NatDex, but the conclusion should be the same for both.
The way I see it, there are two competing principles here. Using justification from this thread:
1. If the threshold to unban quickbans is 60%, the process could be used for suspect manipulation (Instead of a suspect needing 60% to ban, quickban and then have a 60% supermajority required to reintroduce the element).
2. It should require the aforementioned supermajority to overturn the current state of the meta. (Tiering policy: "The onus of providing justification is on the side changing the status quo... The side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both")
The issue here is that the current implementation of these rules leads to a contradiction. Palafin was not legal in OU for two years. Additionally, Palafin did not receive enough survey support for the council to consider dropping it during DLC2. Its reintroduction is therefore a clear change to the status quo and should, under current policy, require a supermajority. As it was quickbanned, however, even two years after it left the metagame, it only requires 50%+1 to be allowed back in. There was clear metagame development between its ban and now, not to mention multiple suspect tests, meaning the status quo changed dramatically in that period. This is completely ignored by current policy, and is a clear example of it not lining up with the needs of the playerbase. The side here attempting to change the status quo does not require a supermajority to change the tier. Regardless of your opinion of the 'mons in question, this feels like a loophole, and not one that should remain open.
The most straightforward way to solve this issue would be to have 50%+1 votes required for a certain duration (to prevent suspect manipulation). Then, after a certain amount of time has passed (6 months is probably a reasonable amount, seeing as that was roughly the length of time between the two Gouging Fire tests), it should revert to a supermajority. That way we can avoid the current situation - something that has been gone for 2 years, which clearly would have had massive implications for the metagame during this period, being reintroduced with only a simple majority.
(I'm also in favor of changing the supermajority requirement to 55%, but that is clearly a discussion that needs to happen for Gen 10.)
Fantastic post. No words, good take. Palafin unban being 50%, regardless of policy, feels like a massive mistake, almost like cheating in some ways. I feel like this post perfectly explains why.
Most neutral hits force it to burn roosts quick and a lot of the most common offensive mons hit it neutrally rn. It's also quite passive, all it can really do is u-turn around. It also competes in that role as a physdef pivot with great mons like mola. I wouldn't put it any higher than B+, I personally have voted it lower the last few VR slates iirc.
spdef corv is also one of the best all-purpose gking checks (and kyurem scouts) in the game, while also walling mons like ival, quite a few tusk, and spikes scor along the way.
not to mention that corv is the single best defensive SD scor answer behind like fuckin Tera Ice hydrapple and your own SD scor rn.
corv is still really solid on fat rn even if it's struggling to fight its way for a spot on offense and more offensive balances rn. I think it's definitely better than a few a- mons rn.
honestly, i'm not sure why natdex didn't follow suit when ou changed the unquickban threshold to a simple majority. maybe they just didn't know—this kind of scenario comes up so rarely that virtually no one seems to be familiar with the policy (seeing as it's had to be explained something like a dozen times across this and the palafin thread). i believe the unban percentage for quickbans should remain as a simple majority to prevent manipulation of the tiering process. if it were 60% to reverse a quickban, a less scrupulous council could qb something and then test it back down and only require 40% of people wanting it to stay banned, instead of just normally suspecting it and needing 60% to ban it. technically the policy as it stands still makes things a little asymmetrical, so the danger is still present, but the only way to solve that would be to make the threshold for every suspect a simple majority and a lot of people consider that undesirable. i do think the suspect threshold being lowered to 55% might work, but i don't think that would be approved
Cry
(mola + gking is a fantastic pair. Best paired with a knocker to remove covert cloaks)
Otherwise idk. I mainly play stall and HO so idk how balance survives
I do understand the messiness of kyurems 2nd suspect makes people feel cheated and want a 3rd ASAP. But but but... how much less broken would kyurem be without tera blast
imagine dealing with a push to retest kyurem after fighting for your lives to get it banned.
Wouldn't you rather bury it for good by eliminating tera blast as a factor?
Thanks
imagine dealing with a push to retest kyurem after fighting for your lives to get it banned.
Wouldn't you rather bury it for good by eliminating tera blast as a factor?
Thanks
Thanks for the quick answer. im running a BO team with Waterpom and zapdos + glowking for kyu, but also having all purpose great T means im super weak again freeze dry after all. slotting in alo would open me up to quite a big electric weakness.. i guess you cant prep for it all but i still feel like im missing something.
This is why I'm ban palafin. Strains the builder too much. Probably just go kyu and try and go gking against Bolt. Out-offense them. GL.
I personally think Kyurem is more the issue than palafin. Like if there was no Kyurem palafin being answered would be even easier. I’m sure i’m not the only one having an easier time answering palafin than kyurem, and I think the majority would agree
I'm ban on both, sooooo. Yeah. I don't like majorly stressful unnecessary building checks. gg
sub tect kyurem doesn't need tera blast, same with 4spa atk. Tera blast isn't the problem for that mon, its just smth that helps it to be more broken, but it will change nothing in facts as only 1 set uses it. So yeah, I'll definitively vote ban on both kyurem and palafin
Kyurem wouldnt be less "broken" without Tera Blast. Sure, DD sets are massively nerfed, but those were never the problem anyway. In fact, Kyurem's issue is not exactly that he is broken, but that he freezes way too often with the Sub Protect sets specifically. All other sets are 100% fine (for me personally), thats the only problematic one, because its very consisent at freezing in many match-ups vs Mons that would otherwise beat or wall it (especially Tera Steel Levitate Mons like Latios).
Even with that set, I think that Kyurem is not as big of a problem for the tier as Waterpon, Gliscor and Raging Bolt are, though I will still vote Ban on it if its suspected again, provided Palafin stays out of the tier, of course.
Even with that set, I think that Kyurem is not as big of a problem for the tier as Waterpon, Gliscor and Raging Bolt are, though I will still vote Ban on it if its suspected again, provided Palafin stays out of the tier, of course.
How are people still sleeping on galarian weezing, its everything you could want from a hazard remover
This thing shouldn’t be RU by usage
This thing shouldn’t be RU by usage
i want special bulk, and maybe not being walled by poisons or fires depending on if im wisp or tox. oh, and maybe not being weak to tusk headlong
As a hazard remover, being able to Defog versus Gholdengo is definitely really neat. But it doesn't do it well. It's already got a poor matchup into it - It's outsped and especially threatened by Make It Rain.
It must find an opportunity to threaten hazard removal against a teammate, so only when Gholdengo could switch in to block the defog, is the defog really worth it over other forms of hazard control.
There will be Gholdengo teammates that Weezing-G can threaten a defog against. But if this somewhat rare situation ever becomes common and/or impactful enough, Gholdengo may start running ability shield as an item to block Neutralising Gas. And it's this situation, no matter how common, undermines the value of using Weezing-G: a defog user that can defog no matter what (and even this comes with the condition of finding a safe turn against a good matchup).
Bottom line, I think its worth as the team's hazard remover, while cool, is already tenuous, so it really needs to find value on OU teams for other reasons.
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If Gholdengo was gone, it would easily be OU, since it would be able to run Levitate and wall almost all the grounds (also Spikes) while still removing hazards. Not being able to do that means that its defensive profile is worse, despite Defogging vs Ghold.
That's the point, though. Gholdengo comes in to block Defog or Rapid Spin. (Or Mortal Spin). Geezing directly bypasses this. Ghold being good into Geezing in a 1 V 1 is irrelevant to the hazard situation. In fact, nearly every other remover used in OU besides Corv hits Ghold supereffectively. Nobody claims this means Ghold cannot block them, though, because none of that is how blocking hazard clear actually works. The mon doing the hazard clear finds an opportunity, and THEN the blocker switches in. It's very telegraphed. Ghold switching into Geezing is irrelevant because you already cleared at that point.
I've not seen one ability shield Ghold on the ladder. They tend to prefer to run other things. If they have to run Ability Shield just for Geezing, which is niche, they would suffer for that. They would also probably wind up facing more Ace or other things that bypass them.
As for Geezing's value on other teams, it has an several other niches from the NG ability, such as annoying Gliscor or disrupting weather leads. There are a lot of little things that can benefit you despite not generally being a reason to devote a slot to it in of themselves.
You can still run Levitate Geezing. In exchange for the better defensive profile, you need to be more careful of Defog and T-spikes. Which ability is better really depends more on what you are trying to do. Both sets are niche, though.
In general, Geezing suffers from passivity and its low stats outside of defense. It's not as good as most physical walls in the tier. I don't know that it would be straight OU because of its limitations. It would still likely only fit on certain teams.
Air Balloon NG is temporary, but also possible with a Tera to mitigate the Ground weakness. In this way, you can further annoy Gliscor. You generally don't want to use your Tera on Geezing, though, since you might not get the greatest value out of that.
abil shield ghold what happened to no shitposts
I would be okay with palafin here either way to be honest but I think oddly enough without Kyurem, Palafin answers become a lot easier to slot due to Kyurem being a cause of a lot of the threat saturation. Stuff like Raging Bolt and Waterpon would see a ton more usage.
Bro typing in this OU room is so exhausting but I miss being recognized in mid ladder so bad </3 the things girls do to chase fame
Anyways, hamurott is lowk kinda insane. I put it S- on my personal VR (although I also put a lot more pokemon in S- like lando, gking, scor, etc) because I think it's the freest progress maker of all time.
My guy sets Spikes AND knocks for himself AND uses the Spikes and Knock to break with razor shell and taunt in one pokemon. It's insane. He's the judge, jury, and executioner and somehow is able to run an AV set that both sets, knocks, and breaks.
Not only that, but bandurott is insane. Many a time you'll hear the lost words of Sire clod crying to his mother, "MOTHER WHY? WHY BANDUROTT ON THIS FOGGY WINTER NIGHT? THE LORD HAS FORSAKEN US" and he would be correct. Bandurott and SD taunt are insanely stupid sets that can rip stall into pieces. Ask stallcord for more details.
Despite my shitposting, I believe samurott is genuinely an S- mon in the SV OU metagame. It's the arguably best progress maker in the tier, it rips apart stall, fat, and balance depending on the set, and it has amazing supportive scarf and AV sets, and can do all those while setting Spikes, knocking, and breaking in once.
Anyways, hamurott is lowk kinda insane. I put it S- on my personal VR (although I also put a lot more pokemon in S- like lando, gking, scor, etc) because I think it's the freest progress maker of all time.
My guy sets Spikes AND knocks for himself AND uses the Spikes and Knock to break with razor shell and taunt in one pokemon. It's insane. He's the judge, jury, and executioner and somehow is able to run an AV set that both sets, knocks, and breaks.
Not only that, but bandurott is insane. Many a time you'll hear the lost words of Sire clod crying to his mother, "MOTHER WHY? WHY BANDUROTT ON THIS FOGGY WINTER NIGHT? THE LORD HAS FORSAKEN US" and he would be correct. Bandurott and SD taunt are insanely stupid sets that can rip stall into pieces. Ask stallcord for more details.
Despite my shitposting, I believe samurott is genuinely an S- mon in the SV OU metagame. It's the arguably best progress maker in the tier, it rips apart stall, fat, and balance depending on the set, and it has amazing supportive scarf and AV sets, and can do all those while setting Spikes, knocking, and breaking in once.
I rarely grind but I just went for 9 consecutive wins with Pinkacross' Psyspam team, really fun one, just a tiny bit better in this Palafin meta I'd say. Granted I was crushing lowladder and it's not a serious teamstyle but when I'm down it always puts me in the mood