Palafin Suspect -- Qualified Discussion

[flyingtaco]

Every prior suspect test I've had to argue why X mon needs to be banned to improve the meta. Trying to flip the status quo isn't easy! The dnb crowd has never had to do it this generation, so it feels like you shouldn't have to this time either and shouldn't have to argue why palafin is needed in OU. But you do, because you're the ones trying to flip the status quo now.

No argument thus far has really done a good job of why we need palafin. I've heard it's anti-cheese, but is cheese really running rampant on the ladder? How much consistent success are you really getting by spamming webs or hard HO? From my experience, not much.
It revenge kills iron moth and iron valiant, but was anybody having trouble with these mons? Neither have been even remotely problematic enough to even be mentioned on tiering surveys.

First, cheese playstyles don't need to be consistent for players using them to stay on high ladder, they only need to have a good enough matchup spread against enough teams for players to maintain their elo. I sampled the November usage stats to see how prevalent cheese was.
| 33 | Araquanid | 5.65654% | 43555 | 2.187% | 40128 | 2.571% |
| 39 | Ribombee | 4.06629% | 74077 | 3.720% | 68123 | 4.364% |
These are 1825+ stats from last month.
Webs make up almost 10% of teams on high ladder! I would definitely call 10% usage of a cheese playstyle "running rampant", and Palafin would serve as a good check to many threats on Webs like Gholdengo, Iron moth, and Enamorus.

There are other less common, but no less "cheesy" playstyles on high ladder like Aurora Veil that Palafin would keep in check, since it compresses a fast encore user with powerful priority to finish off setup sweepers after Veil has expired.
| 51 | Ninetales-Alola | 2.21424% | 74884 | 3.761% | 65814 | 4.216% |
| 105 | Grimmsnarl | 0.33903% | 39331 | 1.975% | 34268 | 2.195% |

What does encore palafin bring to the table that encore wellspring doesnt? A worse defensive profile that drains momentum for you earlygame in exchange for some mediocre prio? It's a downgrade to encore wellspring in most cases and wouldn't improve the meta in any way. I also fail to see how losing a valuable ground resist (to check tusk) and water immunity (to check weather) would be freeing up your teambuilding so much that we can suddenly start using shitmons in OU (has never been the case).

Even though I might disagree with the premise that the Unban side needs to show why Palafin is "necessary" for the meta, I will state evidence for why Palafin would improve the meta.

First, palafin's priority is not mediocre. It's jet punch hits harder than Dnite's extreme speed. Since extreme speed is like half the reason to use Dnite in OU, I'd argue that having a stronger unconditional priority move gives Palafin a lot of utility and definitely does not make it mediocre:
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 105-124 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 8.4% chance to 4HKO

Palafin vs Wellspring: You hit the point exactly - encore palafin is able to role compress fast-ish encore with priority. While encore wellspring might be better in most cases, a Palafin unban would still contribute positively to the metagame by enabling teams to be built where a strong physical water type with encore and priority is needed. Palafin also has additional defensive utiility vs Wellspring, since it doesn't have the grass type, making it more sturdy into mons with poison, flying, and bug type coverage, such as Darkrai, Roaring Moon, and any mon with U-turn. In addition, Palafin fits better on bootspam teams since it is able to run boots, while wellspring is not. As an example, take this team from teams of the week:


I would argue that Palafin fits better on this team than Ogerpon-wellspring because it is
1. Able to run boots, fitting in to this bootspam structure better than Wellspring, which would be chipped over the course of a game much faster than its teammates.
2. Able to revenge kill various offensive threats like sub Iron Moth, DD tera fire dragonite encore Dnite, and tera Roaring moon, making the offense/HO matchup better

You mention how Palafin has clear weaknesses over Wellspring such as lack of a ground resist and water immunity. I think that's a healthy part of teambuilding, where you have to consider the tradeoffs between two mons that might go on your team. Some teams can afford to drop a ground resist and/or water immunity, notably teams that are already strong against these types of pokemon. In the previous example, since we have a sinistcha and a moltres, we already have the tusk matchup covered, and Sinistcha is a pretty decent check to Wellspring as well, the primary water type threat in the tier. So, this team doesn't need the utility that Wellspring provides and can instead use Palafin, which fits the team much better.

Palafin is not just a Wellspring replacement. It also has other value through its strong priority, as either a replacement or as a complement to other priority users in the tier like Dragonite and Rillaboom. Right now if you want strong, unconditional priority (so not sucker punch/thunderclap), your options are limited to Dragonite and Rillaboom. Palafin would add a third option to the tier, allowing for more styles of team structures to be built. For example, if your Dragonite team is very ice weak, you might be able to replace Dnite for Palafin and get a better team.

Right now, certain cores like Ting-Lu + Ghold + Dnite are extremely common in the metagame due to their ability to blanket check most of the tier. These mons form this commonly spammed core due to all 3 mons having high utility and large set variety without being broken. A Palafin unban will likely create entirely new cores around itself due to its high utility in Jet Punch, Flip Turn and possibly Encore. I have no idea right now what new cores will come of a Palafin unban, but one that might be created is Palafin + Rillaboom + Heatran/Moltres (if this core gets spammed in a few months I called it first), a classic fire water grass core that has two strong priority moves that cover most of the meta and Heatran/Moltres's defensive excellence. People that say Palafin's unban will add nothing to the tier are thinking too short-sighted, since it will always take people longer how to best use any new mon on Bulky offense/balance than on more linear playstyles like HO or stall. Give it a month or two, and I'm sure that SPL players will create many new team structures involving Palafin that would be impossible to create with our existing priority users.

Overall, we see that more available mons > less mons opens up teambuilding, especially for such a versatile mon like Palafin.

Imma also tell you rn that sun and rain are still ass lol palafin is not saving either of these playstyles. In order to be consistent, these playstyles need to cover defensive bases that are impossible to cover (checking opposing wellspring with your rain or checking opposing bolt with your sun) while also not being so passive that glowking can easily come in and reset your weather. Palafin contributes nothing and is little more than a barraskewda upgrade for rain teams that need smth like archaludon to actually be viable.

Even if rain and sun end up as less viable as more mainstream structures, if Palafin makes these structures more viable than they currently are, more people will run them, which increases metagame diversity. I do believe that Palafin makes rain better, since it has a much better matchup into Gambit than current rain abusers, which is one the main weaknesses of rain.
Sun is improved since it generally has a really good matchup into Palafin, which should increase its viability.

Edit: here's a Palafin + Rillaboom + Heatran team destroying webs, as an example of a new team structure possible with Palafin.
Wellspring couldn't have survived the encounter with roaring moon, assuming it's acrobatics
Also the replay shows how spedef bulk up palafin isn't a good set.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2271324720?p2

WE NEED A HERO
UNBAN PALAFIN

 

[Firer4]

I’m just gonna make a short reply to this because you basically answered the question yourself with the way you phrased things.

you are 100% right, if a pokemon needs to leave OU it’s because it is too strong or constricting or restrictive or any other synonym in the books you can think of. needing or not needing a pokemon has never been a valid argument when it comes to presenting reasoning to an existing OU pokémon suspect test. However, this palafin test is completely different, as palafin was not an OU mon to begin with but it is being introduced in OU from Ubers, and the reason why the necessity argument is a lot more compelling than it would be if it was the other way around is because we only have 2 weeks to experiment with a pokemon and i think we can all agree on the fact that 2 weeks is not a long enough period of time to make a fair and completely informed decision solely based on how strong it is for the tier. therefore, how necessary it would be to introduce this mon back in the tier, and to put it in other words, how worth the effort and the headache palafin is definitely becomes a question that both the keep banned and unban side should argue.

Now the tiering system may be flawed but no one’s forcing you to do anything. you don’t have to argue for palafin’s necessity if you don’t find that piece of information relevant, just like you can’t be going around and complain about people from both sides arguing in good faith about things they do find relevant.

The key distinction to make, in my view, is that this mon did initially begin in OU. It was subsequently quickbanned by the council without broader input from the community. Now that the player base has an opportunity to weigh in, the burden placed on them should not be excessive simply because it was quickbanned before.

There is precedent for this: overturning such bans requires only a 50+1 majority instead of the usual 60%. To lower the amount of dnb votes needed, while maintaining an excessively high burden to justify such votes, is contradictory. On one hand, the original decision is acknowledged as an undemocratic emergency measure; on the other, there is a requirement to argue that its inclusion in OU is necessary, as though it had always been classified as Uber. Such an approach undermines the context of the original ban.

 

[Srn]

First, cheese playstyles don't need to be consistent for players using them to stay on high ladder, they only need to have a good enough matchup spread against enough teams for players to maintain their elo. I sampled the November usage stats to see how prevalent cheese was.
| 33 | Araquanid | 5.65654% | 43555 | 2.187% | 40128 | 2.571% |
| 39 | Ribombee | 4.06629% | 74077 | 3.720% | 68123 | 4.364% |
These are 1825+ stats from last month.
Webs make up almost 10% of teams on high ladder! I would definitely call 10% usage of a cheese playstyle "running rampant", and Palafin would serve as a good check to many threats on Webs like Gholdengo, Iron moth, and Enamorus.

There are other less common, but no less "cheesy" playstyles on high ladder like Aurora Veil that Palafin would keep in check, since it compresses a fast encore user with powerful priority to finish off setup sweepers after Veil has expired.
| 51 | Ninetales-Alola | 2.21424% | 74884 | 3.761% | 65814 | 4.216% |
| 105 | Grimmsnarl | 0.33903% | 39331 | 1.975% | 34268 | 2.195% |


Even though I might disagree with the premise that the Unban side needs to show why Palafin is "necessary" for the meta, I will state evidence for why Palafin would improve the meta.

We can split hairs on what we mean by "running rampant" but I maintain that these playstyles are not consistently successful, regardless of how commonly used they are. Ladder players definitely favor quick games so you can't correlate usage with viability 100%. These playstyles are not consistently successful because the metagame already has tools to keep these teams in check and palafin isn't necessary to do so.

First, palafin's priority is not mediocre. It's jet punch hits harder than Dnite's extreme speed. Since extreme speed is like half the reason to use Dnite in OU, I'd argue that having a stronger unconditional priority move gives Palafin a lot of utility and definitely does not make it mediocre:
252 Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 105-124 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 8.4% chance to 4HKO

Espeed is also pretty mid lol it's weak af without band or tera normal. Espeed is also not half the reason to use dnite these days, dd sets with tera blast or unique teras like ground+flexible coverage+multiscale are very strong rn and many of these sets drop espeed entirely. Just watch my oupl finals game for one of many examples.

Palafin vs Wellspring: You hit the point exactly - encore palafin is able to role compress fast-ish encore with priority. While encore wellspring might be better in most cases, a Palafin unban would still contribute positively to the metagame by enabling teams to be built where a strong physical water type with encore and priority is needed. Palafin also has additional defensive utiility vs Wellspring, since it doesn't have the grass type, making it more sturdy into mons with poison, flying, and bug type coverage, such as Darkrai, Roaring Moon, and any mon with U-turn. In addition, Palafin fits better on bootspam teams since it is able to run boots, while wellspring is not. As an example, take this team from teams of the week:


I would argue that Palafin fits better on this team than Ogerpon-wellspring because it is
1. Able to run boots, fitting in to this bootspam structure better than Wellspring, which would be chipped over the course of a game much faster than its teammates.
2. Able to revenge kill various offensive threats like sub Iron Moth, DD tera fire dragonite encore Dnite, and tera Roaring moon, making the offense/HO matchup better

You mention how Palafin has clear weaknesses over Wellspring such as lack of a ground resist and water immunity. I think that's a healthy part of teambuilding, where you have to consider the tradeoffs between two mons that might go on your team. Some teams can afford to drop a ground resist and/or water immunity, notably teams that are already strong against these types of pokemon. In the previous example, since we have a sinistcha and a moltres, we already have the tusk matchup covered, and Sinistcha is a pretty decent check to Wellspring as well, the primary water type threat in the tier. So, this team doesn't need the utility that Wellspring provides and can instead use Palafin, which fits the team much better.

Palafin is not just a Wellspring replacement. It also has other value through its strong priority, as either a replacement or as a complement to other priority users in the tier like Dragonite and Rillaboom. Right now if you want strong, unconditional priority (so not sucker punch/thunderclap), your options are limited to Dragonite and Rillaboom. Palafin would add a third option to the tier, allowing for more styles of team structures to be built. For example, if your Dragonite team is very ice weak, you might be able to replace Dnite for Palafin and get a better team.

Right now, certain cores like Ting-Lu + Ghold + Dnite are extremely common in the metagame due to their ability to blanket check most of the tier. These mons form this commonly spammed core due to all 3 mons having high utility and large set variety without being broken. A Palafin unban will likely create entirely new cores around itself due to its high utility in Jet Punch, Flip Turn and possibly Encore. I have no idea right now what new cores will come of a Palafin unban, but one that might be created is Palafin + Rillaboom + Heatran/Moltres (if this core gets spammed in a few months I called it first), a classic fire water grass core that has two strong priority moves that cover most of the meta and Heatran/Moltres's defensive excellence. People that say Palafin's unban will add nothing to the tier are thinking too short-sighted, since it will always take people longer how to best use any new mon on Bulky offense/balance than on more linear playstyles like HO or stall. Give it a month or two, and I'm sure that SPL players will create many new team structures involving Palafin that would be impossible to create with our existing priority users.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but once again, none of this is stuff the tier needs, nor is it improving the tier. The added strain on building every team is really not worth the creation of some more BO cores which are already the most successful and most consistent playstyles in the tier.

Overall, we see that more available mons > less mons opens up teambuilding, especially for such a versatile mon like Palafin.

It's not that simple. Some pokemon don't really serve as glue in teambuilding/have very limited defensive utility and only exist as offensive threats to check. Think of mons like espathra, do you think this would be opening up teambuilding? lol ofc not. More available mons could mean more pokemon that your 6 needs to check, which could strain teambuilding more than open it. It really depends on what kind of pokemon we're adding to the tier.

Even if rain and sun end up as less viable as more mainstream structures, if Palafin makes these structures more viable than they currently are, more people will run them, which increases metagame diversity. I do believe that Palafin makes rain better, since it has a much better matchup into Gambit than current rain abusers, which is one the main weaknesses of rain.
Sun is improved since it generally has a really good matchup into Palafin, which should increase its viability.

As sun's super soldier I can assure you sun has not improved. Increasing palafin usage doesn't really solve any of sun's core problems I outlined in my previous post, if anything, it makes them worse because increased palafin usage = increased raging bolt usage = sun continues to suffer. There are many more top tier pokemon on solid structures that take advantage of palafin, sun is still ass.
I agree palafin makes rain better, it is a barraskewda upgrade, but gambit is not the main problem that rain struggles with.

 

[sims796]

As sun's super soldier I can assure you sun has not improved. Increasing palafin usage doesn't really solve any of sun's core problems I outlined in my previous post, if anything, it makes them worse because increased palafin usage = increased raging bolt usage = sun continues to suffer. There are many more top tier pokemon on solid structures that take advantage of palafin, sun is still ass.
I agree palafin makes rain better, it is a barraskewda upgrade, but gambit is not the main problem that rain struggles with.

This line right here. I thought RB was a Sun staple, am I mistaken? Can you clarify this one point? Is Raging a huge issue for sun?

 

[Srn]

This line right here. I thought RB was a Sun staple, am I mistaken? Can you clarify this one point? Is Raging a huge issue for sun?

raging bolt is both a sun staple and very difficult for sun to check, so increasing usage of it is bad for sun. You're forced into awkward AV users like tusk/slither wing, momentum sinks like ting-lu, or weirdos like tinkaton+pivots with ur own tusk.

 

[zS]

The key distinction to make, in my view, is that this mon did initially begin in OU. It was subsequently quickbanned by the council without broader input from the community.

While it did begin in OU and was banned immediately, there’s a couple of things that are not right in your post.

The key distinction to make, in my view, is that this mon did initially begin in OU. It was subsequently quickbanned by the council without broader input from the community.

this is only true semantically, the community was involved, and made aware, of what was going on with palafin and every single mon that was banned during the first ban waves through threads like the Council’s Radar, and every single community member, once those mons were put on the radar, had the opportunity to discuss them in the metagame thread and a lot of them did so. Just because these mons were quick banned (rightfully so too i might add) does not mean that the community didn’t weigh in the decision at all.

Now onto the part that confused me the most:

Now that the player base has an opportunity to weigh in, the burden placed on them should not be excessive simply because it was quickbanned before.

I’m sorry but this sentence is either worded extremely poorly or you’re saying that the playerbase is the dnb side? and that we shouldn’t burden the dnb side simply because and I quote “the first decision was an undemocratic emergency measure”? well pardon my french but in any case this is bullshit.

1- the playerbase is just as much the dnb side as it is the ban side, and both are arguing the same things there’s no burden put on anyone, if you find it burdening to have to argue this case just don’t? go on with your day you’ll feel a lot better i promise.

2- you’re basically arguing that the decision should be overturned simply because the community didn’t get to weigh in the first place, when that metagame was 2 years ago, 400 pokemon short, and completely unrelated to what we currently have. even with community output, the reasoning would be entirely different and these two incidents are not at all based on the same metagame so it’s not worth mentioning as precedent.

3- the 50+1 majority requirement is already a burden OFF the dnb side, and i’m sorry but the context of this suspect test shouldn’t even warrant this policy being enforced in the first place. the whole thing was bought for likes, it was never a tiering policy decision but rather something that fell from a piñata. but it is being enforced still because rules are rules and that’s the only way to go about it to avoid making it a precedent for other rulings to be overturned which is completely fair. but you can’t just ask people on the ban side of things to not burden the dnb side with arguing more things because they have to reach a lesser threshold than they would have had this been an existing OU pokemon. both sides are trying to make their case and saying that one of them should stop burdening them with arguments is a huge show of bad faith.

 

[Firer4]

I’m sorry but this sentence is either worded extremely poorly or you’re saying that the playerbase is the dnb side? and that we shouldn’t burden the dnb side simply because and I quote “the first decision was an undemocratic emergency measure”? well pardon my french but in any case this is bullshit.

1- the playerbase is just as much the dnb side as it is the ban side, and both are arguing the same things there’s no burden put on anyone, if you find it burdening to have to argue this case just don’t? go on with your day you’ll feel a lot better i promise.

While I appreciate the concern, I assure you that my well-being isn't in any danger.

2- you’re basically arguing that the decision should be overturned simply because the community didn’t get to weigh in the first place, when that metagame was 2 years ago, 400 pokemon short, and completely unrelated to what we currently have. even with community output, the reasoning would be entirely different and these two incidents are not at all based on the same metagame so it’s not worth mentioning as precedent.

I’m not suggesting that the ban should be overturned simply because it was a council ban. Rather, I’m arguing that the criteria we use to evaluate whether Palafin belongs in OU or Uber should not be influenced by the fact that it was previously quickbanned. This isn’t about questioning the council’s ability to quickban—it’s about ensuring that now, with the opportunity to follow the proper procedure, we do so without bias.

Consider this: if we quickbanned Kyurem tomorrow and later retested it with the stipulation that its inclusion in OU must be argued as necessary for the tier, it would clearly undermine the legitimacy of the process.

The fact that we are playing in a substantially different metagame today further weakens the validity of the original ban rather than reinforcing it. This shift only underscores the importance of not imposing elevated requirements to justify a ‘Don’t Ban’ vote. I think most would agree that a quickban of Palafin under the current circumstances would not be justifiable

but you can’t just ask people on the ban side of things to not burden the dnb side with arguing more things because they have to reach a lesser threshold than they would have had this been an existing OU pokemon. both sides are trying to make their case and saying that one of them should stop burdening them with arguments is a huge show of bad faith.

I hardly think this is a show of bad faith. I am entirely open to arguments that Palafin is unhealthy for the metagame or too difficult to handle. I haven’t made up my mind yet, but if those arguments end up convincing me, I will cast a vote to ban it. What I disagree with, however, is the notion that if Palafin isn’t broken and wouldn’t ruin the meta—but also isn’t deemed necessary because it would ultimately be a neutral addition—this would justify a ban. I understand that you don't agree with this perspective but is it really such a preposterous stance, that you can't even justify having a reasoned discussion about it? I believe I argued my point politely and in good faith.

 

[Lily]

re: what the tier "needs", since it's come up a few times;

This understandably is pulled from some incredibly poor wording in the tiering policy framework and is set to be updated in the nearish future. There is nothing any tier "needs"; SV OU doesn't "need" Landorus or Great Tusk or Gholdengo or Kingambit or whatever else but to deny they contribute to the metagame would be silly. The only bans that have ever "needed" to happen are things that remove agency from the player entirely (e.g. Funbro). Even something like the BW OU Excadrill unban all those years ago which was framed as necessary was not truly so in the strictest sense of the word; BW OU may have sucked without it (idk i wasn't playing) but it wasn't the difference between games being playable and not.

It's definitely on the free Palafin side to argue why it should be freed and what it brings to the table bc ultimately that's the side that wants to change the status quo. We just should focus on whether what it brings is good for the tier & whether or not it's broken/unhealthy rather than whether or not it's a necessary piece of the tier, cus nothing fits that criteria.

Longer post about the mon itself rather than policy boringness perhaps coming soon

 

[Firer4]

We just should focus on whether what it brings is good for the tier & whether or not it's broken/unhealthy rather than whether or not it's a necessary piece of the tier, cus nothing fits that criteria.

I am 100% on board with that, thanks for clarifying. Arguing that it is strictly necessary just seemed an impossibly high bar to clear. I hope I didn't come across as needlessy pedantic for belabouring this point, but I had the impression that a certain emphasis was put on this wording by the ban side, so it felt important to hash out.

Longer post about the mon itself rather than policy boringness perhaps coming soon

Who cares about Palafin when we have the potential to make groundbreaking improvements to the tiering policies for decades to come?!

 

[DripLegend]

Just got reqs and will be voting ban, I do not have a ton to contribute throughout the thread without repeating most people on this side of the argument, but an argument about palafin particularly stands out to me regarding the "useless palafin turn". Pokemon is a game of momentum anyway, and when other factors in the game like hazards also take a turn to set up, palafin's setup turn isn't an egregious trade-off and it's less risky relative to other dead turns as palafin has flip turn access. The ability being "useless" is also not true, since getting the massive upgrade from baby to hero form is good enough to be worth the cost of one turn. Not to mention the fact that Darkrai, a mon who has consistently been OU for the generation, literally does have a useless ability.

 

[SupaGmoney]

Hello and I hope everyone is having a good Holidays / New Year



Many people have asked for my thoughts on the Palafin suspect so I figured I’d drop my two cents. Storm Zone , Pais, MAVERICK SHOOTERS. TMTito, and hellom all made great arguments as to why this mon should be banned and I wanted to elaborate further.

They did a great job explaining the specific sets and individual properties that make it broken, so I won’t belabor the point. However, I will say that I think the Bulk Up sets are extremely underexplored especially in regards to Tera type and Tera Blast and absolutely have potential to be problematic later down the line should this mon stay.

In that same vein, I want to quickly tackle another misconception that I have seen pop up, and that is people falsely equating Palafin and Ogerpon-Wellspring. First off, these mons are not alike at all. Ogerpon is the most linear and predictable breaker in OU right now and very straightforward to plan for in the builder. It is both Tera type and Item locked. That cuts down massively on the variance of sets it can run, unlike mons such as Kingambit or the previously mentioned Palafin. Palafin can run anything from Mental Herb and Covert Cloak to Boots and Choice Band as well as a variety of offensive and defensive Teras with potential Tera Blast, making it significantly more unpredictable and dangerous. Not only that, but Palafin has the strongest priority option in the game as it already gets natural STAB and doesn’t require any kind of opponent action the way Thunderclap and Sucker Punch do. This means that the options to revenge kill a Palafin that has gotten out of control are significantly reduced, whereas there are plenty of Pokémon that are faster or have priority that can revenge Ogerpon. As a result, Ogerpon counterplay is almost always the same regardless of set and very consistent overall. The same cannot be said for Palafin, and again both hellom and Storm Zone did great jobs explaining why.

However, my main gripe with Palafin is that I have seen too many people claim that OU needs Palafin around to check hyper offense (HO) or just standard offense because the archetypes are too good. This isn’t even remotely true, and anyone who has built and played extensively can attest to how difficult it is to build/pilot a truly consistent HO in this meta as there are so many roadblocks and obstacles that it has to overcome. Mons like Moltres, Ting-Lu, Dragapult, Dragonite, Weather, Stall, techs like Red Card, Lokix, Primarina, the list goes on, have provided many options for players looking to reliably beat HO.

The reality is that all playstyles were balanced and viable prior to the Palafin test, and the stats back this up as well. Taking a look at the most recent official tours, SCL and OU Circuit, we can see this to be true.

From SCL:

Bulky offense and balance staples like Zamazenta, Gholdengo, Dragonite, Slowking-Galar and Ting-Lu all have phenomenal win rates and high usage.

HO staples like Raging Bolt, Iron Treads, Darkrai, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant have pitiful win rates in comparison.

While win rates are not the only part of the story, they do successfully demonstrate the point that hyper offense is not the best archetype in this meta, otherwise the aforementioned staples would definitely have much higher win rates.

If we take a look at what top players like Storm Zone and xavgb have brought to their OU Circuit games, I see plenty of balanced and bulky offense playstyles. These teams are also performing very well against all kinds of offense and hyper offense.

OU Circuit Replays:

• Primarina + Tinkaton Bulky Offense https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-810348
• Garganacl Bulky Offense: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-810604
• Slowking-Galar + Scizor Bulky Offense: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-810594
• Ting-Lu + Rotom Balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-811384?p2
• Clefable + Alomomola Balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-811387?p2
• Corviknight + Dragapult Bulky Offense: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-812104

I’ve said this before as well, but xavgb, the best balance player in all of OU, also won this year’s OLT. How could that be possible if HO was the de-facto best and most dominant playstyle? Surely he would’ve just used HO only if so right? Yet, if you take a look at his games, you will see he used almost exclusively balance and bulky offense for the entirety of that tournament and dominated it. Since then, there have been no net changes to the bans/unbans in OU.

I also recently peaked the SV OU ladder with my Bronzong Stall (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/peaked-1-2039-elo-–-bronzong-stall.3756953/) so I have a great grasp of what the ladder looked like prior to the Palafin drop as well. And from the replays I posted, I can attest that at the highest level of the ladder, hyper offense was not the most dominant style. I saved replays of almost every game I played and have posted replays below from exclusively 1800+ ELO players that I played against, as these are players who have been able to win relatively consistently on the ladder in that iteration of the meta. And as we can see once again, bulky offense and balance dominate the archetype choices of these players:

• Okidogi Balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2264092334-fmct9b9jl5nj7b4cipzmknxjttvogpapw
• Clefable + Skarmory Hazard Stack: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2243878416-k3aavauhsx1pjgtijhvnmtub9iy9v6vpw?p2
• Band Dragonite Bulky Offense: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2246041013-d7fom2wa9lgfcw6vy84nglpv0kjjn56pw
• Bellibolt Bulky Offense https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2262750936-0vmp1qqphtygaq9ageaufdhha5j7mz3pw
• Mamoswine Bulky Offense: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2263070195-z62xu1qufyrq4uknfuzu0h4996pitb7pw
• Trick Room: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2263081622-9ahrbdacqnztqpq8fqprslxn9f5i8s4pw
• Slowking-Galar + Ting-Lu Balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2264779024-z9wiluq8lnqhu6x8timdwxwkg1d5gedpw?p2
• G-Weezing + Tornadus-T Balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2265429124-6t827re7dfufl5ht8o95prtf9gfq7dkpw?p2

For these reasons, it is just outright false when people claim that hyper offense or standard offense dominate SV OU. The true SV OU meta consists primarily of bulky offense and balance. HO and standard offense are not the best archetypes and haven’t been for a long time. Therefore, we don’t need Palafin to check offense because SV OU doesn’t have a problem with checking offense.


However, not only does Palafin not solve any meaningful problems in the meta, it actually creates a number of bigger issues.

It is undeniable that Palafin is a great check to offense with its crazy strong priority and solid bulk. However, as I mentioned previously, this isn’t something that the tier needs. There are actually many checks to offense already. Between all the priority like Dragonite, Scizor, Kingambit, Lokix, Raging Bolt, plus very solid anti-offense Pokemon like Zamazenta, Moltres, Zapdos, Ting-Lu, Slowking-Galar, Primarina etc. already existing, it is actually too much for most offense to deal with once you throw Palafin into the mix. Srn also made a similar point regarding how hard it is to use HO and offense even without Palafin around. Thus, as a result of a Palafin unban, HO and offense move towards the bottom of the archetype viability, with the exception of a few niche styles like webs, just as Storm Zone explained. We also get a massive surge in Dragon types like Kyurem, Raging Bolt, and Dragapult as well as mons like Zapdos and Ogerpon Wellspring which can check Palafin offensively, as it is quite difficult to answer this mon defensively due to its ability to pivot on checks with extremely strong Flip Turns or shut them down with Taunt. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that a meta with more webs, Raging Bolt, Zapdos, Kyurem, and Ogerpon is not one that we should be striving for, which unfortunately will be the case should Palafin be unbanned.

Due to its raw strength and ability to beat any playstyle, for example Bulk Up + Taunt to beat Fat/Stall or Band Jet Punch to beat HO/Offense, Palafin becomes a very centralizing force in this meta. This leads to a surge in Palafin teams, which as we have seen from this suspect test, are primarily Pivot Spam Bulky Offense and balance. Pokémon like Zapdos, Dragapult, and Kyurem also get way better as I mentioned earlier since they are both great checks and great partners for Palafin due to their excellent natural synergy. Palafin deals with bulky ground types and revenges offensive threats while also pivoting on bulky waters and dragons to bring in Dragapult/Kyurem/Zapdos, which in turn beat Palafin’s checks and can also pivot on their respective checks to bring in Palafin. It is precisely this ability of Palafin to break, pivot, revenge kill, and sweep all in one that make it problematic and centralizing.

I had a ton of success myself on ladder using bulky offense with Palafin + Zapdos/Specs or Boots Raging Bolt + Kyurem/Dragapult + Ground type like Great Tusk or Ting-Lu as this combo is almost impossible for most offense and HO to deal with. A lot of balance teams also folded to this pivot spam as they were unable to keep up with the momentum.

When it comes to balance, the best teams I played with and faced had Pokémon like Alomomola in particular as well as Slowking-Galar that used slower pivoting moves to deny the momentum of bulky offenses and bring in breakers, including Palafin of their own.

In conclusion, what this suspect test has shown us is that these pivot spam bulky offenses and balances become the best archetypes by far in a Palafin meta. This is frankly one of the most boring and uninteractive metas imaginable because games quickly devolve into players endlessly clicking Flip Turn, Volt Switch, and Chilly Reception. A Palafin meta is not one that is conducive to an enjoyable or skill intensive metagame in the slightest. Not only do I think that Palafin doesn’t add anything necessary to the tier, but it also actively detracts from it and makes it worse. For this reason, I will be voting Ban on Palafin, and I hope you will do so as well. Thank you.

 

[xavgb]

I'm generally in agreement with the points made by Hellom/Zs/Zioziotrip/Storm/Supa and will be voting Ban. Palafin is a confusing mon with a lot of set options but for the most part I think it does almost everything it needs to do in the meta from three sets (Boots/CB/BU 3 atks). I won't say that Spdef Taunt Bulk Up is a bad set, but it kinda fits into a similar territory as Breaking Swipe Gouging Fire did where sacrificing the natural power leads to a bunch of random checks and counters popping up. I think it would detract from any argument to waste too much time on this set because it hasn't even been that common from what I've seen and there's enough material to work with from the main three sets.

As people have re-iterated a few times, the best Palafin teams seem to be pivot Bulky Offenses and Balances which are already the best styles in the metagame. These teams also compensate for the baby form quite well since you're usually playing roughly the same gameplan but in a marginally slower order. I certainly don't think that the turn investment is detrimental enough to be consistently abusable from the other side, it really depends on your matchup more than anything. The difficulty with dealing with these styles is that the best way to handle pivot-heavy teams is to use the best mons, so that you can create maximum winning chances in the windows of opportunity where they don't have direct control of the game. This paradigm is at odds with a large amount of the counterplay that is currently being brought up as a way to deal with Palafin, as a lot of the answers are mid-to-low end picks whose main weaknesses stem from a lack of ways to deal with threats outside of the specific things they're intended to answer. In terms of top mons that are answers we're left with Wellspring/Bolt/Zap/Pult/Zama and 4 of those 5 struggle with Punching Glove Bulk Up sets.

As I mentioned briefly in the last paragraph, the lower end answers just aren't very good in the meta at large, and on a practical level this will always leave them prone to Flip Turn, whether that's coming from Boots or CB sets (which also just decimates these mons with Tera Water Wave Crash). There seems to be a misconception that we already had all of these random mons that handle Palafin being kicked around in the metagame at large, and frankly it's just not realistic to what was actually happening especially at high levels of play. The grasses were already being dropped as Ogerpon checks due to U-turn Ogerpon rising, and in the case of Amoonguss every playstyle that isn't stall already doesn't want it due to the fact that you're better off with blanket checks like Zama + handling Ogerpon offensively. Unfortunately for this type of counterplay, Palafin's access to strong priority as well as its ability to run an item/different Teras takes away a lot of the options that you'd usually have against Ogerpon, and it also has access to Ice coverage for the Grasses and Dnite which makes its profile noticeably different to check in the builder.

Lastly, on a more personal note directly based off of my experience with the tier so far, I don't really believe in the positives that Palafin brings. Sure, on the face of it the extra priority move makes it "easier" to build, but the cost of this is that you have a prio move from a really good Balance/Bulky Offense pokemon that easily takes care of some of the threats that we're currently relying on to dent BOs and balances. I don't think this is conducive to good gameplay, as it's essentially taking the strongest styles in the metagame and addressing some of their issues in a way that is very simple to play with, which I don't consider a positive trait. The Palafin metagame definitely isn't fully developed in terms of potential 6s etc, but the way I see it, this pokemon most likely ranges from being a small net negative to the metagame to a large net negative to the metagame, as its building advantages when using it are negated by the building disadvantages that come from preparing against it.

 

[Finchinator]

I will be making two posts -- this one breaking down Palafin's impact on the tier and some recurring points I disagree with, then another giving my personal opinion on Palafin later today or tomorrow.

Palafin shifts the tier a lot. You can look at it in terms of individual usage where Ogerpon-Wellspring sees yet another increase or Alomomola finds a new peak. Alternativeely, you can look at it in terms of archetypes, where old school offenses are forced to pack Water immunities or durable resists while balanced teams are incentivized to run Rocky Helmet or Wave Crash sponges more than before. To me, the metagame later in the suspect test played musical chairs both with the tier at the start of the suspect test*** and especially with the pre-suspect tier. We saw a realignment within offense, a shuffling in the distributuon of weather teams, and balanced teams shifting a bit, albeit not as much as other archetypes.

***

I believe future OU retests (be it later this generation or in future generations) should be three weeks rather than two. We saw the tier shift a ton throughout this retest and introducing any potential top Pokemon would have this impact. I think the standard suspect length for something already in the tier is insufficient for adding something entirely new and I plan to reevaluate how retests are conducted in the future.

Pivoting back to Palafin, I find a few things that have been said (repeatedly) in this thread to be really questionable:

• Palafin-Lokix comparison
• Claiming Palafin adds nothing to the tier or what it brings is not positive at all
• How people perceive the initial entry of base Palafin

A number of people earlier in this suspect (on the forums, on discord, on PS, etc.) claimed Palafin's pivot sets, notably Choice Band and Heavy-Duty Boots, are just more like Lokix as a trade-based revenge killer and stopper. It can do this, but Palafin offers a ton more as Choice Band Wave Crash is insanely powerful, locking in progress unless you face Dondozo, Alomomola, or a Water immune core that gets turns right. Choice Band Palafin can OHKO Ogeron-Wellspring, 2HKO Volcanion, and even 2HKO chipped Dondozo with Close Combat, too, so it's feasible for enough positioning to be done to where you are almost always forcing good progress.

Obviously Heavy-Duty Boots sets do not pack the same punch and do not even use Wave Crash, but Encore is a huge benefit into balance and pairing it with Future Sight can make it (especially with Tera Fighting Close Combat) a huge threat. They also last a lot longer as Choice Band Palafin's main downside becomes longevity, capping it at a handful of entries and a couple of kills usually while Heavy-Duty Boots can be a more durable presence.

As for people who claim Palafin does not add anything or the added priority is not necessarily noteworthy, I disagree profusely. This is not a reason to keep something in the tier if you view it as broken, which I do feel Palafin is, but there is no denying how much of a benefit it is to dissuade Iron Moth on offense or even limit the potential of a Tera Ground Roaring Moon/Dragonite/Kyurem. We see a big trickle effect of Palafin on offensive structures on ladder right now with structures like Sticky Webs fitting Ogerpon-Wellspring, Rain taking up a bigger piece of the puzzle, and Volcanion beginning to surface more, all of which have larger ripple effects as well. There are pretty big teambuilding impacts here and a lot I view as interesting. I think if Palafin's power level was just a little lower, we would have a great piece for the metagame and I still think this test will be pretty close as a lot of prior posters poin out some of the benefits of the jet puncher.

Finally, I find it pretty funny how everyone assigns different value to needing to switch-in and out with Palafin. I think there is a pretty huge correlation to what set you are using -- Flip Turn variants have an easier time, balance teams have more freedom, and hyper offense with stationary Palafin is really the only scenario where there is a noteworthy cost here, in my opinion. I do not think this is a huge obstacle for Palafin and mainly perceive it as a limiting factor for BU variants on very specific offenses, not the larger case for Palafin on either end.

I will make another post later tonight or tomorrow outlining my thoughts on why I plan to vote ban on Palafin, what sets/structures I used, and the counterplay (and lack thereof) in the tier, but a few of these points stood out to me over the last week or two and I wanted to get ahead on them.

 

[Moisture99]

It seems like a double standard that one is expected to demonstrate how an unban candidate is both necessary and not broken while to ban a mon you only have to show it is broken and nothing else. The issue of the status quo isn't as applicable to council quickbans rather than community decisions, supported by how the unban threshold has also been adjusted to 50%+1 instead of the usual 60%, and so official policy already reflects this. Imo having to demonstrate something is necessary is an unreasonable bar, especially when it pretty much boils down to which metagames people prefer, and therefore generally based on more subjective criteria than whether something is broken.

As for Palafin itself, it's certainly very strong but I don't think it's to a disproportionate extent when evaluated against other monsters like Ogerpon and Raging Bolt. I got reqs with a range of teams, such as https://pokepast.es/7c4c38f9bc4dade3 and https://pokepast.es/83fda76863918653, the latter of which was built before Palafin's release, with only Moth changed to Tera Grass Energy Ball, and they were generally fine into most Palafins. Theoretically, you could say there exists a Palafin set with a strong matchup into these teams, but matchup fishes have always existed and you are still unlikely to instantly lose with your own ability to tera and emergency checks like Zamazenta, Wisp Rai/Pult, or Encore mons.

I personally enjoy how Palafin limits mons like Kingambit, Valiant and pigeonholes Moth into Tera Grass. While Palafin does contribute to the rise of already dominant mons in Raging Bolt and Ogerpon-W, I think this was probably happening regardless and it can't really be attributed mainly to Palafin. It's definitely a Zamazenta or Raging Bolt type mon where it can abuse defensive tera to stat check a lot of things in a pinch, which is also pretty cool for teambuilding.

The result is likely going to be ban, which is disappointing but understandable. Still hoping more DNB people post their thoughts as it seems that side has been quite quiet at least in this thread.

 

[Finchinator]

I will be voting ban on Palafin because I think it is broken due to lack of counterplay, specifically lack of overlapping counterplay between sets.

I used three sets throughout laddering, which I view as the best ways of using Palafin: Choice Band, Heavy-Duty Boots with 3A and Encore (4A is acceptable though), and offensive Bulk Up 3A. I think a lot of people tried Palafin sets that seemed good in the past or on paper, but they were actually mid and this clouded initial perception of it.

Examples

Taunt + BU was much better when Palafin was first released and counterplay consisted of Toxapex and Amoonguss predominantly. Nowadays, it is more cheese than anything else. Non-choiced AoA sets with damage boosting items like Life Orb are strong, but definitely not one of the pressure points here and do not see much usage. Bulk Up + Substitute is the worst Palafin variant and really is worthwhile once every dozen games or less.

Choice Band Palafin is way better than I thought it would be. Jet Punch off of Choice Band is practically a cheat code against offense, but Wave Crash makes it a threat into all styles. Unless you have Alomomola, Amoonguss, or a core with a Water immune (you can argue Sinistcha, Rotom-W, Rillaboom, or Primarina, but a few Flip Turn sequences can put them into 2HKO range), you are going to lose a Pokemon or multiple against it with balance. Even if you have a core with Ogerpon-Wellspring or Volcanion, the former dies to Close Combat and the latter is easily 2HKOd, so you are not exactly safe. Hell, even Alomomola and Amoonguss teams need to be cognizant of Future Sight + Choice Band Palafin, which I used for a great chunk of reqs with an edit of JackRG's team.

This set alone maybe is maybe only borderline broken as there are some checks and it can be capped at 1-2 KOs depending on recoil and hazards, but when you realize the checks to it that are not stall exclusive (Dondozo and Toxapex) do not check Bulk Up variants and can even be made liabilities, you have a huge problem. Bulk Up + Acrobatics or Bulk Up + Ice Punch can dispatch of Hydrapple and potentially Sinistcha while eventually beating Alomomola or Amoonguss depending on item (Lum is very common) and Tera (half dozen different options with various match-ups). I do not find Bulk Up sets quite as good as Choice Band altogether, but they can fit with similar support like Future Sight or even just work on offense with other complimentary breakers. Boosted Jet Punch is insanely good into offense, as we see with Choice Band Palafin, but it is arguably even better when you can switch moves or use Lum/Tera Fire for Wisp Pult, Tera Electric for Zapdos on Rain or Raging Bolt, etc. -- it is a very high ceiling variant with the floor still being that of a steady revenge killer.

I will say I think the pivot set of Jet Punch / Close Combat / Flip Turn / Encore or filler with Heavy-Duty Boots was not really broken so much as a very good momentum piece on bulky-offense or even balance. It is good at dissuading Iron Moth, Tera Ground Roaring Moon/Dragonite/Kyurem, Iron Boulder, and plenty of others while being able to disrupt set-up or bulky sequences with Encore. I actually find this set standalone to be pretty healthy and enjoyed my time playing with it and engaging with this aspect of Palafin in the metagame, but we do not tier fragments -- we tier whole Pokemon and the aforementioned dynamic with Choice Band and Bulk Up sets proves too much for the metagame, in my opinion.

I enjoyed this retest and most of my laddering experience. I do not think Palafin is blatantly broken and I am glad we gave it a shot, but I think the stronger sets took hold of the tier to a degree and counterplay is too variable between Palafin variants to make teambuilding a consistent practice. In the future, I think proper retests could use another week and maybe even have a settling period at the start where it is usable, but people cannot get reqs, so that the metagame can evolve as I feel the tier now is vastly different than the tier when Palafin initially dropped. This is another policy discussion altogether though. In the meantime, I am voting ban on Palafin!

Happy New Year everyone, enjoy

 

[dreevee7]

I will be voting DNB on Palafin because in my opinion it is not broken and contributes a lot to the tier. I think other people have already made good points about what this mon contributes to the tier so i will instead choose to focus on why I think it is not broken.

Out of all the common sets the strongest in my opinion is by far the choice band set due to its ability to 2HKO even mons that are supposed to counter it like Sinistcha or Raging Bolt with the help of Tera Water wavecrash. This sounds crazy broken on paper but in my experience the prediction reliant nature of the choice band set makes it mostly able to be kept in check. Water absorb pokemon, especially Ogerpon-Wellspring, are a huge problem for this set because if you lock into a water type attack you are losing insane amounts of momentum. On the other hand, if you lock into CC you are allowing the opponent to potentially switch into a ghost type. Even if you manage to get the prediction right and KO the opposing pokemon, you're still going to let the opponent switch into something else which has the ability to check you, like if you CC into Ogerpon-Wellspring, then the opponent can switch into something like Dragapult or Raging Bolt to easily revenge kill you if not get off a good chunk of damage on the switch. Its not even unreasonable to expect people to run multiple pokemon that might "check" palafin in this way, since most of these pokemon are already very good on their own. On top of that, its not like a water absorb pokemon is even necessary to check it, running multiple resists will allow you to get it killed without too much trouble.

Other sets like boots utility just do not do enough damage for me to consider broken, so even if they are not as reliant on prediction they are just good sets, nothing broken.

Finally there is the bulk up set, which in my opinion is honestly kinda trash. Yes it can be a potential setup sweeper, but it just takes too long to get going in order to successfully do so in my experience. In order for this to put in any work, the opponent has to willingly sit around and watch it set up instead of actually doing something to stop it. Also, to address the argument that ive seen many people have that these sets can always beat their counters with some surprise option like mental herb acrobatics for ogerpon or tera fairy tera blast for some dragon types, it is true that this will sometimes win you a game but its not going to work every time, your opponent has to have the very specific pokemon that you are trying to counter. Its more in line with something like Dragonite or Kingambit which will occasionally become unstoppable against certain teams with the right tera / set combination, but its pretty rare to see it actually work out in that exact way.

I also wanted to address the idea that ive seen many people suggest which is that Zero Palafin is somehow not a problem or that the turn spent as Zero Palafin is basically non-existent. In my opinion this is an insane drawback to pretty much any palafin set (less so on momentum sets with flip turn, but still a problem). Leading with Palafin is very exploitable for the opponent especially if they have any sort of setup threat. You won't instantly lose the game if you lead into the wrong pokemon like DD kyurem, but it will be very costly. On the other hand, if you dont lead with Palafin, youll struggle to find an opportunity to get it in due to the baby form's frailty, especially given that youll have to immediately switch it back out again (which is also a huge momentum sink). It's not that Zero Palafin is totally incapable of accomplishing anything, like it might be able to get off a surprise attack for some damage, but overall its just too weak and too exploitable to not be a massive drawback. I think this alone would make palafin not broken, but in conjunction with all the other problems I mentioned it makes it even worse, to the point of being pretty balanced in my experience.

This fact that Palafin is not broken combined with all the positive attributes it brings to the tier is why I will vote DNB and i hope other people do too.

 

[TheTT6]

Fin has 2 sets.
band is not broken
bulk up is not broken (without tera)

While I dont find Fin to be broken, i think it brings a very luck based component to the game. tera just makes this mon unbeatable depending on which tera you pick. ive lost to electric, ground, poison, bug, and everything else. not knowing what it will morph into makes it a complete luck game as it cleans in late game.

I will be voting BAN

 

[ausma]

To be blunt, I do not have the time nor do I really have a strong enough opinion to vote this go around, but since I'm a council member and have been playing/building with and against Palafin extensively, I see it as my responsibility to still make a stance and provide some perspective.

Palafin is an exceedingly unique Pokemon with an offensive playstyle that lends poorly to hyper offense but fits snug onto balance and bulky offense thanks to its gimmick and how its utility lends very well to their gameplan. Holistically speaking, the activation turn can be a deficit, but more often than not it is negligible. Provided that you have Pokemon that are willing to stomach a hit or two, folding a bit of momentum at the start of the game is no big deal for teams with backbones that tend to complement Palafin anyway.

Regarding its relationship to each composition:

Spoiler

Hyper Offense:

Some Hyper Offenses can fit Palafin, mainly Sticky Web due to Araquanid being a ludicrously resilient setter generally making it easy to lead with Palafin barring into Raging Bolt or Zapdos teams. However this is also because offensive Bulk Up fits really well on it. It can naturally outspeed and delete it with Acrobatics or through raw power, and the composition loves Jet Punch's utility into Cinderace, which is generally Sticky Web's bane.

Non-Webs Hyper Offense is hurt by the presence of Palafin, as it's another priority option/bulky attacker to account for, but is one that can't be readily exploited by it without conscientious teambuilding.

I do think its impact on the composition is a bit overstated. With the rise of Alolan Ninetales HO to buffer its blows and also the general presence of Jet Punch resistances on the composition regardless (Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, Kyurem, etc) it is far from outright screwed as a result of Palafin. Furthermore, it is the kind of archetype that, when given an inch, takes a mile when it comes to momentum, which it can obtain from baby Palafin without needing a sack.

But that being said, Veil and adjacent structures were already very volatile and having something else that pressures its viability does make using it more shackled by nature. Choice Band Jet Punch is extremely brutal for the composition no matter how you slice it, especially with hazard support. The aforementioned checks very rarely run Heavy-Duty Boots when run on these compositions, so hazard damage can accrue really easily on top of the incoming, already high-power priority move.

Bulky Offense

Bulky Offense is the composition that on paper benefits the most from Palafin's presence, as it fits its gameplan like a glove thanks to its ability to incapacitate a good amount of lethal Bulky Offense threats like Iron Moth. It struggles pretty hard into offensive Bulk Up and doesn't really like having to deal with Choice Band, but defensive Bulk Up is generally pretty manageable. Plus, while threatening, Choice Band can be overwhelmed more reliably since the high-power Jet Punch can be responded to within reason unlike hard offense. Barring that, Palafin itself features best on Bulky Offense since it adores the powerful blend of power and the bulk it brings to the table, and its Hero form can activate pretty easily as well.

Bulky Offense is the best and most reliable archetype in this metagame, and Palafin buffs it. That being said, I don't necessarily view that as a bad thing, as part of what makes Bulky Offense so effective is how much it as an archetype rewards clever but intuitive teambuilding. Palafin being able to offensively role compress with its blend of bulk, power, and extremely reliable priority can, in a way, be a healthy tenant that gives the playstyle more room to experiment with off-picks. This is imo is the primary argument toward makes Palafin a positive addition overall, especially as it can also see good use on a bevy of Balance compositions, arguably the most versatile and varied archetype in the game.

Balance

Balance imo actually suffers a bit from Palafin's presence in the tier. The issue is that it is the most liable to struggle into its set variety. Choice Band can shred Balance teams without a sturdy Water-type answer as they often have very volatile forms of Speed control, which Palafin reaps upon. They also usually cannot afford to stack multiple dedicated checks if they do have one to handle Palafin, due to the offensive saturation already present in the metagame and the composition's reliance on having defensive resilience. Also because these teams tend to lack multiple Palafin checks naturally, they are also vulnerable more variants of its Bulk Up set, mainly the Covert Cloak ones, since they can't outlast it as reliably. The HDB sets also tend to thrive into Balance, as they are especially vulnerable to the Future Sight and Knock Off support that it is typically paired with, and they have the longevity to play footsies with Balance teams.

As previously eluded to, it can still benefit from Palafin for very similar reasons as Bulky Offense, and its affinity toward offensive role compression does enhance variety in a meaningful way, but its closer draw toward defense means Palafin is more prone to capitalizing on it which can make it as much of a deficit as a benefit.

Fat and Stall:

While Palafin doesn't work well on these compositions, they are inherently reinforced with so many potent checks that it's quite difficult for Palafin to do much here without dedicated external support. Even with Taunt, Rocky Helmet Alomomola, Hydrapple, Sinistcha, etc. are able to generally 1v1 or overwhelm it to a point where it is incapable of pulling off a successful sweep. Offensive Jet Punch gets owned pretty badly by most bulky Water-types. HDB pivot sets do the best here.

The HDB pivot is its most reliable set that is also one of the most effective and splashable, and is offensively within reason to respond to by itself. It blends everything that could make Palafin healthy and accentuates them in a very real and wonderful way; personally, I like having it around. That being said, I can see an argument against it after having seen the kinds of teams it fits on. It benefits heavily from Future Sight and Knock Off support to really make it menacing, but unlike other abusers its ability to tank hits creates a more reliable dynamic with the one-two punch of Future Sight since the second part of the combo occurs after the turn has ended. On top of this, it can still effectively force switches because of its innate power and priority to pull off this interaction multiple times over the course of the game. That being said, this set cannot afford to run Wave Crash as a result of 4MSS, and also because part of what makes it so effective is its longevity. Having Flip Turn and Jet Punch as your primary STABs can leave a bit to be desired, as you'd then be reliant on Close Combat, Future Sight, and potentially your Tera to properly amplify your threat potential. Because of this, resilient Future Sight resistances like Corviknight, Gholdengo, and Hatterene for the most part can stomach this set, but do have to respect Flip Turn. It needing progress, good clicks, and very deliberate positioning throughout the game before reaching its scary heights (as a result of its immediate power being a bit of a setback), though, I think is within reason. It doesn't feel too unlike Pokemon like Weavile, Meowscarada, or Darkrai in how it takes advantage of Future Sight and weaves in-and-out into bulkier teams.

People who say Choice Band is a meme I believe have not actually played into teams that know how to utilize it, and I believe this set is the only one that can properly show how explosive it has the potential to be since it is the only one that effectively uses a high power STAB. Its Jet Punch is ludicrously strong into dedicated offenses and Wave Crash is a disgusting click into Balance. JackRG's team in particular is a great exhibition of how nice defensive failsafes, Galarian Slowking, and Cinderace can reap big value from it into cutthroat offenses that they can't afford stacking checks for without losing proactive options. That being said, it needs dedicated support due to its vulnerability to hazards and Wave Crash recoil really cutting into its breaking opportunities, especially into teams that force the Palafin user to turn on their brain.

---

All of this in mind, I do think Palafin has a noticeable amount of check overlap across its sets that also have intrinsic setbacks, of which can actually make it feel underwhelming to use compared to the more extreme and more readily-applicable heights you can get from other Pokemon like Roaring Moon or Kingambit. These intrinsic setbacks are meaningful enough to make teams that don't have the best matchup into a given set have a fighting chance. That being said, I also recognize that this set variety does have a bit of an uncomfortable relationship with the many compositions in the tier, and that it doesn't holistically add a lot to compositions that are already struggling.

I personally believe Palafin doesn't really do a lot that other Pokemon can't already do, aside from providing a very strong revenge killer for different flavors of offensive Pokemon like Iron Moth and Iron Valiant. If you value that, then more power to you; but, in terms of being a win condition and a wallbreaker - which it often is attempting to be - it is interchangeable with a bevy of Pokemon and is generally just more shit to account for, whether it's particularly effective at filling those roles or not. While typically I don't subscribe to the "necessary" argument for a multitude of reasons, I think unbans are fundamentally a different case. Freeing a Pokemon in an unban suspect means that it only needs a simple majority, and it inverses the typical onus involved with DNB vs Ban arguments where the change in the status quo must be argued by the DNB side instead. Because of this, I think the argument of not having it around on the basis of not being a positive presence and comparatively worsening the tier, even by just a little bit, is generally justified.

Ultimately, I believe one's verdict of Palafin is going to be extremely dependent on how you perceive tiering philosophy and what you value in the structure of the tier. If you value viability balance across the spectrum of archetypes, then Palafin does not help that and actually worsens it. If you dislike how its several viable sets have unique relationships with different archetypes to a debilitating extent, then Palafin very much is not worth having. But, if you value letting Pokemon be available if they're able to be overall handled or are feasible to make some kind of a gameplan against, then Palafin is fine.

After all this writing I apologize if this is a bit of an anticlimactic conclusion, but I personally am ambivalent to it staying. This is part of why I decided to sit out of this suspect, on top of my personal life consuming a lot of my time and that not being conducive to the new reqs system. If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably vote to let it stay; it has had a genuinely negligible impact on the past few days of building/playing for me to where I wouldn't really care either way. In general, I err closer toward bans being maintained in overt cases of imbalance and this is why I'm overall a fan of protocols like those we've taken recently in freeing Deoxys-Speed, Zamazenta, and Darkrai, who have not had any recent opportunities to actually be in an OU environment until this generation. But unlike these Pokemon Palafin's positive effects have felt less noticeable to where its less healthy qualities tend to rear their head more often than its healthy qualities do, so ultimately I'm a lot less passionate about it when it comes to Palafin. My main advice for voters is to adhere to their personal beliefs when it comes to unban-based tiering philosophy and vote for what they think is best for the circumstances that define the tier, whatever that means for them.

 

[Karmazz]

Got reqs earlier. This is by far the hardest suspect decision I've participated in. I tried writing this post 4 or 5 times but every time I finished I had changed my mind, so I'm just not gonna pretend to argue for something I only kind of believe in.

I will ask, if anyone has high level replays with palafin that they can share it would be really appreciated. I surprisingly faced very few palafin's on ladder, and there's obviously no tournament replays to look at. Calcs and speculation can only do so much.

 

[DSC_6387]

The best argument to keep this banned is a wave effect on the meta by strengthening other mons due to its presence.

Nonetheless, this mon has not proven to be broken, at least no more than roaring moon is.

I will test a bit more, but as of now I am leaning to unban.

 

[samohi0]

252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 441-519 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Mew: 456-538 (112.8 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

it was proven before that when the best switch in for a mon is an immunity the mon is broken and that was in a generation without tera. Palafin is constricting on teambuilding and is not consistently beatable with any Pokemon not even ogerpon which gets ohkod by cc. and besides that I don't see what positive it has on the tier

 

[TPH]

After mulling it over for a day, I think the correct decision on Palafin is unban.

CB Tera Water: CB Palafin, especially when tera'd, represents a greater dilemma in SV. Sure, Wave Crash trucks pretty much everything in sight, but between rocks and recoil, you get two hits of that max vs the vast majority of teams. Considering you commit tera and position it, should you not be rewarded with a kill? I would argue it's a wasted tera if you don't get a kill or two with a choice bander before it dies. In addition, SV has always struck me as offensive enough that even balances can still sack a mon and still have the firepower to win, so I don't see how it cripples the other team enough that the opponent can't do anything.

Many players default to mono boots in SV because hazards are abundant, making the tier extremely proactive if you don't go that route. Considering CB Palafin requires at least two dead turns from the start of a game to become usable, it's more on the opponent to use that time to set up a hazard or snatch momentum to help limit its effectiveness. We also have faster mons and slower resists that force it out, meaning it doesn't often get multiple kills in a row in the early-mid game, which could theoretically end the game on the spot.

Boots: I played most of my run with the boots encore set, which felt completely healthy, if not an outright net positive for the tier. Jet Punch is incredible utility as a priority move vs offense and doesn't do enough to bulkier stuff that it can be a strong STAB. It's bulky enough that you can use it as a mix-up against bulky offense. The last slot is a toss-up, but Encore is excellent with its speed tier. It isn't broken in the slightest, at least imo.

I don't have anything to add on the BU set cause I didn't play with or against it more than a handful of times. Go reread Lax's post about how it's healthy for the tier to have teratypes the builder can handpick to shore up problems. I thought he covered that part pretty well.

To close, in the last year or so, I have been of the belief that anything that I can't immediately look at and say please quickban should be kept and observed longer because I think minimal bans are ideal. If Palafin had been dropped at the start of the DLC, it would fall into this category, and thus, it should be unbanned.

 

[xavgb]

CB Tera Water: CB Palafin, especially when tera'd, represents a greater dilemma in SV. Sure, Wave Crash trucks pretty much everything in sight, but between rocks and recoil, you get two hits of that max vs the vast majority of teams. Considering you commit tera and position it, should you not be rewarded with a kill? I would argue it's a wasted tera if you don't get a kill or two with a choice bander before it dies. In addition, SV has always struck me as offensive enough that even balances can still sack a mon and still have the firepower to win, so I don't see how it cripples the other team enough that the opponent can't do anything.

This needs a lot of context. Yes, Tera allows you to kill basically anything with a lot of mons whenever you want, but the reason people don't randomly do that is because there's supposed to be major drawbacks to the effect of having that mon get forced out and no longer achieve anything after burning the tera. When CB Palafin pops a Tera Water Wave Crash to beat a defensive water resist, it still has a priority move strong enough to OHKO Darkrai/Val/Tera sweepers etc in the back + potentially more Wave Crash kills as well as a stupidly strong Flip Turn etc. Sacking a mon and having the "firepower" to win in SV means having a wincon, something that actually pushes the game once Tera is burned, but again Palafin does insane damage to most of these mons so it's just not the same situation in practice. The few mons that can clean a game through a Tera Water CB Palafin (like Zama and Dnite) should be covered by basic balance teammates so there isn't really a consistent solution here.

All of this is before we get into the issues with a pokemon that already has such a strong offense matchup simultaneously being able to 2HKO bulky resists, all in a tier that only has one immunity to its main STAB (which is rarely found on balance teams).

Many players default to mono boots in SV because hazards are abundant, making the tier extremely proactive if you don't go that route. Considering CB Palafin requires at least two dead turns from the start of a game to become usable, it's more on the opponent to use that time to set up a hazard or snatch momentum to help limit its effectiveness. We also have faster mons and slower resists that force it out, meaning it doesn't often get multiple kills in a row in the early-mid game, which could theoretically end the game on the spot.

It's one turn most of the time, two would only be in a rare situation where you don't lead Palafin and then switch it in on an attack and get doubled on the next turn (generally there's no reason to let this happen with a normal Palafin team). Another way of looking at it is that it's not possible to cede the initiative more than once when activating Palafin, no matter when you do it. On top of this, you can often do a simple mixup when it comes to Palafin leads, where you either aim to lead Palafin on a non-threatening Pokemon so that you can simply use your response to that Pokemon t1, or you lead with a pivot option that scares out their main threats t1, which can usually be transferred into an early Palafin activation anyway. Most of this philosophy is already present in the regular lead game, where you prepare around the possibility of getting the lead matchup wrong and being forced out. Palafin's lead game is definitely worse than this, but nowhere near as much as some of the DNBers in this thread seem to think. Really the main thing that changes from the ability is that you don't get to use Palafin on most forms of HO unless it's webs, but my earlier post here was already built around that assumption.

As for the rest of this paragraph, yes it's true that the tier as a whole is more proactive when people aren't spamming Boots (which is a good thing), but most of the structures that Palafin enables aim to play reactively as an ideal. I'll re-iterate the sentiment from the first paragraph here - early momentum is just the first step to executing a winning plan; the actual winning part requires some form of direct breakthrough to take advantage of the momentum. Palafin compensates for its weak early game momentum by denying late-game win opportunities, which is perfect for people who cannot plan games accurately enough to hold onto the initiative or sequence correctly around opposing sweepers. This isn't a recipe for giving good players more safety nets against weaker players - in fact it represents the opposite shift in the metagame, where weaker players get to indulge their urge to solve problems conclusively in the builder, while strong players have to shop around in a dwindling pool of options so that their teams don't get invalidated by a mediocre player spamming Jet Punch in an endgame.

I don't think Palafin is some world-beater that will find itself on the absolute best team the metagame has to offer, but I do think it's good enough to be found on strong teams which serve to decrease the level of skill expression in the current meta. This sentiment seems to be shared by most of the SPL/SCL level players in this thread, as most of these players appear to favour the Ban side.


P.S. I've seen a couple of people argue that we need Palafin's Jet Punch in the meta because we don't have enough strong priority otherwise. Please keep in mind that we don't just have Kingambit/Dnite/Raging Bolt/Samurott/lower ranked priority as options for dealing with sweepers, we also have the likes of Zama and Booster Valiant, as well as defensive behemoths like Ting-Lu and phazers like Moltres. This also probably serves as a good time to remind people that the two Tera types that aim to break Steels and dodge status from the contact birds are both weak to Jet Punch. On top of all the options I mentioned against sweepers it's also worth remembering that in the event that a sweeper outfoxes our current speed control options, there is still a whole Tera button which at its best is designed for handling situations like this. In a Tera metagame it's better to organize things such that people have to actually burn a valuable resource when they get into a bad position against a sweeper, rather than trying to engineer your way towards a metagame where there's so many forms of absurdly strong priority that bad positions against sweepers no longer exist. Finally, as SupaGMoney pointed out in his post, the data from recent high-level tournaments doesn't back the idea that offense is in dire need of a nerf via Palafin being in the tier. It just doesn't make sense to try and bring Palafin back to the tier on the basis that it'd provide a much-needed nerf to offense, at a time when the evidence for offense needing a nerf is lacking.

 

[Zapsuki]

https://pokepast.es/c1922f7712239f4e 45 W - 10 L

I have battled against Palafin's Choice Band set and Bulk Up set, and neither set seems broken. I do have to be fair and acknowledge that my suspect test team has 5 Palafin checks. I did not really prepare for Palafin besides increasing Garchomp's speed from 325 to 330. The loss of momentum on Palafin's first turn can be minimized with solid pivots. I only have checks, not counters, so Palafin can still easily trade. My experience suspect laddering says unban, but the team adds too much bias. I'm not sure yet; I can swayed either way.

 

[Venuesaur]

Short post; got reqs a little bit earlier on with this team i built (https://pokepast.es/4c8fc51d7bc68e5f) and after being dnb for a while, I've decided to change my vote to ban. I think palafin is too statted out for the relatively minor drawback of its ability, and the big thing that changed my mind was the combination of its stats, jet punch and bulk up with the ability to tera to potentially get another set up boost. I think jet punch paired with its insane natural attack stats and one of the best types in the game means that an advantageous set or tera type into a particular team (i.e, having tera electric into a zapdos team) means it gets another bulk up, something which when paired with jet punch's natural priority would just be too much for most teams to handle. It's versatility also means you have basically no idea what to expect when faced with it, although that's also because it has just been introduced. Because of this, voting ban.

P.S: Team I built is still getting edited, but I think this version is pretty solid as is. Synthesis is actually way stronger on grasspon then I thought given how its often serving both an offensive and defensive role on the team, and I only really miss stuff like uturn or SD in more niche situations; pads is because zapdos is broken. The Hamurott set started off as the CTC AV spread but I went more bulky w sacred sword to matchup better into other darks that Hamurott ended up being used to check; I also ended up going more bulky as I ended up valuing its ability to come in on special mons moreso then it's breaking strength. The rest of the team is more standard, but I enjoy using it and it's the first team I built after taking a break to focus on school.