Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

no way we really want a char y suspect test…it’s wraps for the tier
Lord no, it’s incredibly strong and a bit restrictive, but it’s very far from broken and has clear and defined checks.
I say we do another survey and suspect the number one mon ez
I say this and/or a moon suspect. Assuming the number one mon isn’t something obviously not broken, which it probably won’t be. The only problems I see with suspecting moon are choice sets( specifically banded) on sun teams being very strong, but a suspect still couldn’t hurt.
 
Lord no, it’s incredibly strong and a bit restrictive, but it’s very far from broken and has clear and defined checks.

I say this and/or a moon suspect. Assuming the number one mon isn’t something obviously not broken, which it probably won’t be. The only problems I see with suspecting moon are choice sets( specifically banded) on sun teams being very strong, but a suspect still couldn’t hurt.
I agree with the moon suspect but tbh, but while unbanning Mons is fun, etc, it won't make the tier more "competitive" I mean, it PROBABLY won't I can't say for sure, normally tho unbanning Mons does not help make with making the tier more competitive this is also why I, for now, wish we ban the things that are broken first and if we think adding the mons in question like idk moon or esphatra won't fuck up the tier then add em, at least this is my opinion, moon won't fix the problem of the tier so i think it's not the right time, we should, probably, first fix it
 
In addition if you were to look at Zard-Y’s checks you’ll see Great Tusk can help with a number of them. Moltres doesn’t like getting knock-offed by Tusk, Dragonite and Salamence don’t wanna take an ice spinner, Blissy is forced out, T-Tar is often forced out by Tusk, while taking a good chunk from headlong rush, and it can sort of help with Toxipex depending on the Toxipex’s set. While it doesn’t hard wall all of these it makes their matchups much easier and serves to apply meaningful chip to makes them take Zard-Y’s attacks much less easily.
I agree with this for the most part, but its not like tusk can switch into the majority of yard checks. Pex can threaten with scald burn and toxic, switching into Molt means u might take a sun boosted flamethrower, tusk can never switch into mlati, blissey can toxic, etc. Tusk is still a stellar partner as it can still check dnite and remove rocks, but for the most part when yard is forced out by smth, ur usually not bringing tusk in, and you just have to keep the yard checks alive while outputing offensive pressure to keep rocks up.
 
There are so few switches to Char Y, let alone switches to Char Y that don't get cooked by its partners / pursuit. I was considering using Lati even though I dislike its weakness to status, but then I realized I'd have to fit Flip Turn to not make it insanely weak to Gambit / Ttar / etc. in most matchups.

Glowking itself already straight up gets 2HKO'd without AV which is annoying.

I made this graph yesterday because I was frustrated lol:

View attachment 701624

I considered so many mons, even going into full-on shitmons to see if they could do it, and they can't lol.

Salamence itself isn't a good mon but it's had a niche on some Balance archetypes with HDB before btw, but overall there are three major archetypes to Char Y checks that are viable:

1. The Cooked By Hazards

If Moltres/Dnite/Salamence get knocked, they lose with rocks up every time.

2. The Passive Blob

Blissey, Latis (mostly) (depends on MU), Toxapex has to click Recover every time which makes it ultimately passive

3. Smoked By Coverage

Ttar/Mega Ttar (I will not take this mon as a check seriously after my full HP Mega TTar was dropped by Focus Blast on the switch), P

Keep in mind, this is from a Balance-oriented brain, most of the checks that are lower tiers or even some of the higher tiers here are much better on BO/HO where longevity is not a major concern.

Raging Bolt is a great counter to Char Y cores, as I said a few days ago, but it's F tier here because my Balance Team isn't trying to play like BO, it's trying to be flexible in what the turn count/matchup might be, and Raging Bolt can still only come in at most two times before it dies. You want a consistent answer.

I think for me the most surprising calc was Clodsire, I thought it would tank or at worst Char Y would need to calc Fire Blast, but nope it just 2HKOs fairly consistently lol.

Rocks up is obviously a great check to Char Y, but I think it's really shortsighted to just say "put up rocks easy", because Rapid Spin is very easy to run right now, Terapagos + Tusk sun is also very good imo, and that isn't stopped by Ghold exactly. This means you need to spinblock or just get every turn right to keep Rocks up, which one could say is reasonable but I wouldn't really agree for Balance, would agree for HO and (mostly) BO (sacking Ghold for it is usually worth tbh)

One thing I want to try still is Mega Altaria, but its stats are just so bleak. I found this spread

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Def / 48 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Return
- Roost
- Earthquake
- 4th

which lets it switch into Max Attack Headlong Tusk (without Proto boost, note that), beat Urshifu, wall Char Y, usually beat Heatran, Ogerpon without Play Rough, Raging Bolt, good Urshifu switch (especially because knock switch), Mega Ttar, Mega Lopunny

Mon has so massive of problems though, that I really don't think it'll work. It is very passive, is an easy Ferro switch, easy Volc switch, isn't good at checking the birds, etc. etc.

If anyone has any ideas for what to pair with it LMK, I don't think this mon is actually viable but I think it could be fun to see a Mega Altaria Balance to cteam Char Y lol

Ultimately idk if I'd really support a Char Y suspect test, but I am kinda finding it to be an asshole to deal with. I think over time we'll find more Technology to deal with this mon on Balance that doesn't feel like shit, but if not then I will probably support a test tbh.
I think we forgot an important individual...
23b27f674f3a3af42a5a8211bb47f23084a3b033r1-2048-2048v2_uhq.jpg

Hippowdon imo is a mon that is still dormant, and needs to wake up.
 
I didn't say I wanted a Char Y suspect I said it is probably to me the biggest problem in the builder and that if it doesn't become easier over time, then I would support a suspect lol

But in general you didn't give any real argument here so I don't get the point of this snark. I didn't want to admit that I think Char Y is pretty annoying for almost a month now, because I said "Well that mon is fine in Gen 6 OU, 7 OU, Gen 8 ND so why wouldn't it be fine here", but at the minimum we gotta admit that this is probably the best Char Y has ever been due to new tools for an almost perfectly synergistic core.

I wouldn't even be bringing this up a few weeks ago because I would've said "Put up rocks + adapt", and I'm willing to give the mon more time but IMO Balance and BOs without Bolt have an insanely hard time teambuilding with this core in the tier.

Sun teams in moderngens historically are very much focused around Fire type moves which have plenty of resists, what makes this iteration of Sun nutty is specifically that the Sun is buffing mons that have entirely different offensive-defensive profiles, while otherwise the most different it usually gets is a Grass-Type Pokemon with Chlorophyll, a generally weak type.

Meanwhile in SV OU the Sun setters are a lot worse and also you can Tera at any time to say "no" to any threat in front of you, limiting it more by letting you veto card a threat.

So my thought is just survey and do other tiering, but I think Char Y should continue to be looked at. Maybe if another Pokemon is banned then it'll be easier to handle to where it's no longer a problem, I don't know, don't claim to know. But I'm not dying on the hill of banning any Pokemon right now tbh.
I agree that you would be living in disneyland if you think you can defensively deal with an offensive core of yard/tusk/gambit/bolt on non-stall teams in the long-term. Most people would agree zard y on sun teams is disproportionately strong, but sun teams by construction are quite defensively weak into opposing mons such as Garchomp, Tusk, ID Zama, Bolt, and Valiant depending on whatever their 5th/6th are, usually a regen water like Alo, Pex, or Bro + turtle/hatt/kart. All of these mons except Valiant can fit on balance which is cool, so you have room to go on the offensive vs them.

Yeah, long term checks are pretty much limited to spdef pex, spdef moltres, mlatias and blissey. Blissey has obvious issues I won't get into, and mtias can be a bit passive, but its bad matchup vs gambit is overstated and I find it isn't unusual for it to win the 1v1. Mtios and phys def moltres are 2HKOd by Weather Ball which is pretty bad for the former since Roost is 8PP and Luster Purge doesn't OHKO. I find you also usually have to sack a mon when you land a toxic with pex or moltres because scorch/wball is a 3hko, which is something to keep in mind.

The thing is, yard is a build-around mon that really wants to trade positively, like 1.5-1 or 2-1 against most teams, because of how much is invested into enabling it in the builder. So even if spdef moltres and pex are realistically the only long-term options you have on balance, and even if you have to sack a mon to land a toxic, this is fine in practice. They (ESPECIALLY PEX) are really good into the rest of the meta anyway vs e.g. zama, valiant, volc, so you're not at all losing much by running them.

On the topic of pre-existing mons, I would oppose any suspect and adamantly vote dnb on every single one. I like the meta as how it is, a lot of room for counterplay to most mons exists beyond a simple checks/counters checklist. The most annoying mons imo are lele, valiant and zard y but they are fine to deal with in practice.
 
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I agree that you would be living in disneyland if you think you can defensively deal with an offensive core of yard/tusk/gambit/bolt on non-stall teams in the long-term. Most people would agree zard y on sun teams is disproportionately strong, but sun teams by construction are quite defensively weak into opposing mons such as Garchomp, Tusk, ID Zama, Bolt, and Valiant depending on whatever their fifth is, usually a regen water like Alo, Pex, or Bro. All of these mons except Valiant can fit on balance which is cool, so you have room to go on the offensive vs them.

Yeah, long term checks are pretty much limited to spdef pex, spdef moltres, mlatias and blissey. Blissey has obvious issues I won't get into, and mtias can be a bit passive, but its bad matchup vs gambit is overstated and I find it isn't unusual for it to win the 1v1. Mtios and phys def moltres are 2HKOd by Weather Ball which is pretty bad for the former since Roost is 8PP and Luster Purge doesn't OHKO. I find you also usually have to sack a mon when you land a toxic with pex or moltres because scorch/wball is a 3hko, which is something to keep in mind.

The thing is, yard is a build-around mon that really wants to trade positively, like 1.5-1 or 2-1 against most teams, because of how much is invested into enabling it in the builder. So even if spdef moltres and pex are realistically the only long-term options you have on balance, and even if you have to sack a mon to land a toxic, this is fine in practice. They (ESPECIALLY PEX) are really good into the rest of the meta anyway vs e.g. zama, valiant, volc, so you're not at all losing much by running them.

On the topic of pre-existing mons, I would oppose any suspect and adamantly vote dnb on every single one. I like the meta as how it is, a lot of room for counterplay to most mons exists beyond a simple checks/counters checklist. The most annoying mons imo are lele, valiant and zard y but they are fine to deal with in practice.
Those are the main options, however as I said a day ago I've been looking into Mega Altaria because I think it could be interesting, and I think it's honestly not that bad.

On the surface it might look kinda ass but give it an honest go, and if you still dislike it then fair enough you can make fun of it lol

https://pokepast.es/d3c20faabe4fa6c7

Urshifu variant ^

https://pokepast.es/2b0eb4e01bb23aa9

Kartana variant ^

This team has a lot of great qualities, mainly Mega Altaria is a surprisingly good anti-meta mon that forces very specific Pokemon on the opposing team to not lose to, which means you just build around those.

This Mega Altaria has carried me in entire matchups, especially sun matchups. The only threatening Pokemon on Sun is Proto Attack Tusk, if it's Proto Speed it is walled, walls Char Y consistently, walls Raging Bolt very easily.

Problem matchups:

1. Mega Venusaur, straight-up can 6-0 the Urshifu variant, that's why Gliscor on that one has random looking SD. SD is your out against that specifically, it was U-Turn before I realized how much of a problem it is.

The Kartana variant replaces the SD Z Urshifu for a similar SD Z Kart, which has a much better MU (though def not perfect). I've mostly been playing the Urshifu one, but I might switch to the Kart one and try that a lot more myself.

2. Weird fringe Stalls
This team has no Rocks and no Knock Off, which is part of why one may automatically assume it's an ass team. For the record, I love Knock Off spam and I wanted to fit Rocks, but this team actually straight up doesn't need it in 90% of MUs and also it can't fit. Gliscor needs Defog as hazard removal, Tusk could hypothetically replace this spot but you'd lose a pivot (if you want to run U-Turn) and recovery alongside your only EQ immunity after Altaria Megas.

This leaves a lot of the stall matchup coming down to two very specific things: Can Heatran's trapper set get the targets it needs, and then can Urshifu/Kart get the rest of the kills necessary.

I've lost to Shedinja Torn-T stall just by failing to get into a position for Heatran to get traps + get Shedinja out, also won but it was a lot harder than it would be for most teams which have much easier tools for it.

The great parts of this team is that playing proactively is 100% rewarded but it also has the flexibility to play reactively for a lot of the match. With Mega Altaria you simply wall most offensive Pokemon and then Toxic -> Clefable stall them out, or other methods like Heatran Protect + Gliscor, etc. etc.

Then if the Bird switches in to try to annoy Mega Altaria you just poison that too.

Hex is there on the Pult alongside Shadow Ball to extra reward getting that.

Clefable's coverage move here is something I've debated back and forth, Thunderbolt or Flamethrower; Thunderbolt helps you versus Toxapex mainly, that is straight up the biggest reason it's there. But it's also obviously helpful against other stuff like Alo. But Flamethrower is arguably better just by helping punishing the steels and getting towards an endgame where Mega Altaria can just wall out and Poison an entire team.

I might experiment with a utility Clefable set here instead, giving the team hazards and a Knock spammer, though I think the set as is fits on the team very well- Unaware CM Clef can and will win games.

Here are Pokemon I've been using Mega Altaria for:

-Mega Char Y
-Proto Speed Tusk
-Raging Bolt
-Ogerpon
-Dnite
-Volc
-Zama
-Mega Lop
-DD Pult
-Random DD Gyara HOs on the ladder lol
-Kommo-o

Heatran is obviously your way to break past cores with Corv or other Steels.

This team wishes it had better answers to the Lele/Gholds with Focus Z, but it's a doable matchup with a correct read, and those are very predictable Z move users.

The fact that this team has 3 Knock immune Pokemon means that your Fake Magic Guard Clefable is probably never losing its boots (unless you're fine with getting Knocked), there's almost always something else that can take it.

Gliscor is mandatory next to Mega Altaria because it's the best Fogger bird for the job, and the status immunity is great because you don't want Alt to get status'd, and I think this extends beyond just this team as a very general rule on how to build with this RUBLord.

I don't think this mon will ever be a high tier, but it's been very entertaining seeing a gamestate like this and having Mega Altaria win out solo

1736044088559.png


I've also fucked up Rain a lot, since Mega Swampert's best shot without Bulk Up is Ice Punch

252 Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Altaria-Mega: 130-154 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So I usually add it to the Toxic stall fodder lol

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Altaria-Mega in Rain: 117-138 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

This was a calc that surprised me as it happened lmao
 
I agree that you would be living in disneyland if you think you can defensively deal with an offensive core of yard/tusk/gambit/bolt on non-stall teams in the long-term.
Stall teams absolutely can’t deal with this either, unless you’re maybe running weird stuff like spdef Moltres. Even just Gambit’s Pursuit makes it difficult for Blissey to help with Bolt.
 
Stall teams absolutely can’t deal with this either, unless you’re maybe running weird stuff like spdef Moltres. Even just Gambit’s Pursuit makes it difficult for Blissey to help with Bolt.
Yeah fair enough, I haven't really dabbled with stall since imo tera ban made it worse. Probably lights out if its attack boost tusk too since that 2hkos everything on stall except dozo which is 3hkoed.
 
I think we forgot an important individual... View attachment 701773
Hippowdon imo is a mon that is still dormant, and needs to wake up.
hippowdon is an underrated yard check, yes, but why is nobody talking about the goat Chesnaught

Those are the main options, however as I said a day ago I've been looking into Mega Altaria because I think it could be interesting, and I think it's honestly not that bad.

On the surface it might look kinda ass but give it an honest go, and if you still dislike it then fair enough you can make fun of it lol

https://pokepast.es/d3c20faabe4fa6c7

Urshifu variant ^

https://pokepast.es/2b0eb4e01bb23aa9

Kartana variant ^
OMG malt was mentioned, my baby!! i do have 2 questions about the team tho.

1. if you were going to go z on sd shifu why not use electrium-z for the pex mu? it acts as a lure against pex to allow clef to sweep easier. also hits slowbro and mola.

2. why hex specs pult? shadow ball seem much more consistent and your team only has one status spreader, so hex doesnt seem very good imo. flamethrower seems much more appropriate for specs pult as to punish gambit switch ins harder (ur team also looks a bit tough vs gambit if its the kart variant)
 
I didn't say I wanted a Char Y suspect I said it is probably to me the biggest problem in the builder and that if it doesn't become easier over time, then I would support a suspect lol

But in general you didn't give any real argument here so I don't get the point of this snark. I didn't want to admit that I think Char Y is pretty annoying for almost a month now, because I said "Well that mon is fine in Gen 6 OU, 7 OU, Gen 8 ND so why wouldn't it be fine here", but at the minimum we gotta admit that this is probably the best Char Y has ever been due to new tools for an almost perfectly synergistic core.

I wouldn't even be bringing this up a few weeks ago because I would've said "Put up rocks + adapt", and I'm willing to give the mon more time but IMO Balance and BOs without Bolt have an insanely hard time teambuilding with this core in the tier.

Sun teams in moderngens historically are very much focused around Fire type moves which have plenty of resists, what makes this iteration of Sun nutty is specifically that the Sun is buffing mons that have entirely different offensive-defensive profiles, while otherwise the most different it usually gets is a Grass-Type Pokemon with Chlorophyll, a generally weak type.

Meanwhile in SV OU the Sun setters are a lot worse and also you can Tera at any time to say "no" to any threat in front of you, limiting it more by letting you veto card a threat.

So my thought is just survey and do other tiering, but I think Char Y should continue to be looked at. Maybe if another Pokemon is banned then it'll be easier to handle to where it's no longer a problem, I don't know, don't claim to know. But I'm not dying on the hill of banning any Pokemon right now tbh.
Thing with yard is that it has insane damage output and you cannot just leave it be, however rocks are so good, you should always run them no matter what and by running them you already put yard teams in a bit of trouble. I find Pult to be a pretty good yard check, as it can take weather balls nicely and threaten back big damage with darts, while also being able to cripple yard's most formidabile partener in Great Tusk. What makes yard so strong now is the absence of tera, before you would just tera dragon, take a weather ball and then punish it with twave on Slowking for example. I also thing xard has some potential in him
 
1. if you were going to go z on sd shifu why not use electrium-z for the pex mu? it acts as a lure against pex to allow clef to sweep easier. also hits slowbro and mola.
Toxapex isn't actually a big problem for this team due to Gliscor sitting on Scalds, Heatran is the designated Slowbro / Mola / Toxapex bulky water trapper, Electrium Z isn't a bad idea but I didn't run it mainly because my concern with the Z Move was killing the birds without Shifu getting statused and Waterium Z is more consistent at killing Zapdos as a result:

+2 252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Gigavolt Havoc (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 260-306 (67.8 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Hydro Vortex (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 369-435 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Electrium Z is definitely good though and you can run that if you want, Moltres is seemingly a lot more common anyways. I'll be experimenting with this team further because I enjoy it so I'll try Electrium Z myself and report back sometime, currently using Stealth Rock Knock Off Clef.

2. why hex specs pult? shadow ball seem much more consistent and your team only has one status spreader, so hex doesnt seem very good imo. flamethrower seems much more appropriate for specs pult as to punish gambit switch ins harder (ur team also looks a bit tough vs gambit if its the kart variant)
Shadow Ball is your default option but 4th move on Specs Pult on Balance on my teams is usually traditionally is very free.

Draco Shadow Uturn is really all you need. This means usually I'd do something like run Thunderbolt/Thunder to specifically own the Rain matchup, Fire Blast / Hydro Pump to own Heatran or Steels, etc. Hex fits this team the best because Mega Altaria is very good at proactively getting Toxics along with the Heatran cooking almost all of the Toxic immunities, so there are games where you can get down to a Hex sweep.

Edit:

Electrium Z is 100% the way.
 
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We keep hearing till this vwry day to unban so many mons that deep down, we know there broken. Think Mega Lucario, Mega Metagross, Roaring Moon, Palafin, etc. But there is 1 mon in particular that I would like to potentially give a suspect test to. I have tought about it a bit, and wanted to hear some of your toughts...
emma-landolfini-screenshot-2022-12-14-at-19-14-06.jpg


Now before you light up your torches and lift your forks at me and say "this man just wants stall to be meta", listen to watch I have to say...
76533571-bdaf-4a9b-8409-cc79dc44e76e_text.gif
My reasoning for why I decided to nominate Lugia for a potential suspect test are as follows:
-Tera is no longer around: Previously it was understandable why having Lugia around was a bad idea. In a way Lugia is similar to Skeledirge and Garganacl, in the sense that it would've been a "Tera Hog" or a mon that relies heavily on having tera at it's disposal to be functional. Tera Water, Fairy, Steel and Poison all would've been vert irritating to deal with. Now tough, with Tera out of the picture, Lugia's defensive profile would be much more limited, as Psychic/Flying isn't exactly the best defensive type combination in the game, speaking of, thid leads into my 2nd reason.

-It's counters are plentiful: I scratch this briefly in my 1st reasoning, but it's typing is pretty meager defensively, and very exploitable to common tactics in the metagame. It's Flying typing leaves it vulnerable to Stealth Rock, meaning it MUST run Heavy Duty Boots, otherwise it would lose a quarter of its Health upon entry, which would also invalidate it's Multiscale ability, should you go for that ability. It's also a mon that is weak to both rocks AND Knock-Off, meaning you would most likely have yo run it with proper team support, like Clefable, Gliscor, or Mega Scizor, to make up for it's Knock Off vulnerability. This Knock Off weakness also means it has a Pursuit weakness, with one of the most popular mons in the tier being a Pursuit user, and Mega Tyranitar also being a solid choice in the tier, Lugia is gonna have it rough out there. Weaknesses to Ghost, Ice and Electric are also pretty damning, giving how the tier also has 2 common ghost types in Dragapult and Gholdengo, and Ice and Electric moves are used pretty common as coverage, if not STAB.

-Not a ton of diversity: This is all speculation, but Lugia is most likely to run 2 sets. The first being a defensive set, and the other being a Calm Mind set. The defensive set mainly use to slow things down for the opponent to then make progress via statuses like Thunder Wave or Toxic, whereas for the Calm Mind set, it could be an okish wincon under certain matchups, but neither of these sets seem spectacular. Lugia mostly seems like it would fit on Balance or Stall like teams.

Now I am aware at some of the strenghts Lugia has at its disposal, in fact, im gonna list them:
-Really good bulk, alongside good HP.
-Amazing speed for something so bulky.
-2 great abilities in Multiscale and Pressure, of which it can use both to great effect.
-Decent movepool, recover in either Recover or Roost, coverage in Earth Power, Psychic Noise, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, status in Toxic or Thunder Wave, phazing in Roar or Dragon Tail, and even trapping in Whirlpool.

Am I truly 100% sure that Lugia would be a healthy presence in the meta? No, but I think it wouldn't hurt to give it try. I think Lugia could find a proper home with mons like Kingambit being so common, but I could also be wrong, and Lugia might turn our ladder into GSC for two weeks, who knows until we try it. I would like to hear people's toughts on my proposal. Now then, light up your torches!
200w (1).gif
 
i see alot of people talking about zard y and how its broken but nobodys talking about what happens when the zard clicks dd and sweeps ur team because its now faster then dragapult and 2hkos it with weather ball and then clicks +1 eq to ohko the heatran
 
We keep hearing till this vwry day to unban so many mons that deep down, we know there broken. Think Mega Lucario, Mega Metagross, Roaring Moon, Palafin, etc. But there is 1 mon in particular that I would like to potentially give a suspect test to. I have tought about it a bit, and wanted to hear some of your toughts...
View attachment 702367

Now before you light up your torches and lift your forks at me and say "this man just wants stall to be meta", listen to watch I have to say...
View attachment 702379My reasoning for why I decided to nominate Lugia for a potential suspect test are as follows:
-Tera is no longer around: Previously it was understandable why having Lugia around was a bad idea. In a way Lugia is similar to Skeledirge and Garganacl, in the sense that it would've been a "Tera Hog" or a mon that relies heavily on having tera at it's disposal to be functional. Tera Water, Fairy, Steel and Poison all would've been vert irritating to deal with. Now tough, with Tera out of the picture, Lugia's defensive profile would be much more limited, as Psychic/Flying isn't exactly the best defensive type combination in the game, speaking of, thid leads into my 2nd reason.

-It's counters are plentiful: I scratch this briefly in my 1st reasoning, but it's typing is pretty meager defensively, and very exploitable to common tactics in the metagame. It's Flying typing leaves it vulnerable to Stealth Rock, meaning it MUST run Heavy Duty Boots, otherwise it would lose a quarter of its Health upon entry, which would also invalidate it's Multiscale ability, should you go for that ability. It's also a mon that is weak to both rocks AND Knock-Off, meaning you would most likely have yo run it with proper team support, like Clefable, Gliscor, or Mega Scizor, to make up for it's Knock Off vulnerability. This Knock Off weakness also means it has a Pursuit weakness, with one of the most popular mons in the tier being a Pursuit user, and Mega Tyranitar also being a solid choice in the tier, Lugia is gonna have it rough out there. Weaknesses to Ghost, Ice and Electric are also pretty damning, giving how the tier also has 2 common ghost types in Dragapult and Gholdengo, and Ice and Electric moves are used pretty common as coverage, if not STAB.

-Not a ton of diversity: This is all speculation, but Lugia is most likely to run 2 sets. The first being a defensive set, and the other being a Calm Mind set. The defensive set mainly use to slow things down for the opponent to then make progress via statuses like Thunder Wave or Toxic, whereas for the Calm Mind set, it could be an okish wincon under certain matchups, but neither of these sets seem spectacular. Lugia mostly seems like it would fit on Balance or Stall like teams.

Now I am aware at some of the strenghts Lugia has at its disposal, in fact, im gonna list them:
-Really good bulk, alongside good HP.
-Amazing speed for something so bulky.
-2 great abilities in Multiscale and Pressure, of which it can use both to great effect.
-Decent movepool, recover in either Recover or Roost, coverage in Earth Power, Psychic Noise, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, status in Toxic or Thunder Wave, phazing in Roar or Dragon Tail, and even trapping in Whirlpool.

Am I truly 100% sure that Lugia would be a healthy presence in the meta? No, but I think it wouldn't hurt to give it try. I think Lugia could find a proper home with mons like Kingambit being so common, but I could also be wrong, and Lugia might turn our ladder into GSC for two weeks, who knows until we try it. I would like to hear people's toughts on my proposal. Now then, light up your torches!
View attachment 702380
Bro just put the fries in the bag. Lugia is not ok calm mind is just absurd and would contribute no real positives to the meta it would just be broken annoying and be hard to kill. Also plz never cook again
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Bro just put the fries in the bag. Lugia is not ok calm mind is just absurd and would contribute no real positives to the meta it would just be broken annoying and be hard to kill. Also plz never cook againView attachment 702417
Im not gonna too harsh on you because I fear jeff the shark. I just gave an overall opinion of what I think can be a mon to be tested. Also about you telling me not to cook again...
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But there is 1 mon in particular that I would like to potentially give a suspect test to. I have tought about it a bit, and wanted to hear some of your toughts...
I’ve gotta disagree with this, Lugia is a monster defensively and has great setup.

Lugia @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Toxic/Thunder Wave
- Psychic Noise
- Whirlpool/Hidden Power Fighting/Whirlwind

This for the most part would be the standard Lugia minus my 5 second EVs put in which would be better optimized. Whirlpool could allow for the possibility of taking cheesy KOs even if it is niche. While hidden power fighting would be more widely used to check Gambit which is one of its best checks, only out classed by Mega T-Tar in my opinion.

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 136-162 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 165-195 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

0 SpA Lugia Hidden Power Fighting vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 180-216 (48.1 - 57.7%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kingambit Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 144-169 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Kingambit switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 118-139 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

Multiscale allows it to live hits it has no right to and do solid damage with Hidden power fighting or status. I will admit Gambit and T-Tar are good checks, but like with Pult the Lugia user can predict and bring another mon in safely. This forces an unhealthy will they won’t they scenario for both players for will they stay in or switch in the check’s switch in and will they heal on a pursuit, or switch out.

This is if a team has it’s best checks in Mega T-Tar or Gambit. While both are very good teams without them will struggle to do anything into Lugia, besides wear it down with chip or try and status it. I personally believe a toxiced Lugia would still be able to provide significant utility against a Mega T-Tar and Gambit-less teams, and not cripple it as much as toxic does other walls. Losing heavy duty boots would suck for sure, but with reliable recovery it could be worked around for sure, as many other mons do. It also has enough bulk to take hits from Pult and Ghold or could switch out thanks to no threat of pursuit. I will say it can’t hit ghold back without EQ or Shadow Ball, both of which it wouldn’t love running, tho I could maybe see EQ

196 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 180-212 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

0 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 116-140 (27.8 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

While I do think it’s calm mind sets would be flat out worse, they still are definitely worth a mention. This would probably be the most balanced aspect as statusing Lugia would severely cripple it. If it’s got some chip, priority should be able to deal with it especially Gambit sucker punch and some fallen boosts. Also weakness policy would be nothing but low ladder cheese and curse sets could maybe see so use but mostly would just be a worse calm mind set.

I also question what Lugia will bring to the tier? At best a defensive defoger which is great at spreading status and other utility such as whirlwind, dragon tail and psychic noise. It’s got too much utility and too good bulk even in a teraless meta. And if you don’t have a good check it’s incredibly annoying to deal with and can still be with one. In my opinion it would make the meta game more unhealthy rather you have a check or not.

Sorry about the random long post and feel free to disagree with me on this. Also if I got any information wrong on this please let me know so I can fix it!
 
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Bro just put the fries in the bag. Lugia is not ok calm mind is just absurd and would contribute no real positives to the meta it would just be broken annoying and be hard to kill. Also plz never cook againView attachment 702417
Zero substance in this post but I’ll bite. Clef is hard to kill in gen 4, Skarm is hard to kill in gen 3. Toxapex is hard to kill in gen 7. Gliscor is hard to kill in almost every gen it’s allowed in lol. I mean I can go on but the point being is that the belief that Pokémon are banned or not suspected because they are “too hard to kill” has a bad track record. I can count on one hand the amount of times a pokemon was banned because it is so defensively overwhelming and I don’t think Lugia compares to any of those. What does Lugia add to the tier? I know this is a common question when people talk about suspecting an Uber in OU. I think it would be healthy on fat, it blanket checks a lot of things, similar to Terapagos but is an option for Defensive teams instead of Offense. It has a less specific niche as opposed to Terapagos “offensive rapid spinner”. I’m not sure how great Lugia would be on stall, since it lacks the ability to make progress on aggressive stall teams and it does not have great longevity because of its typing and nerfed 8pp for less aggressive or passive stall teams. Maybe Psychic Noise is good enough idk. If anything the meta shifts towards more fat/stall type of structures as a response to Lugia. Omar kinda had me second guess myself when he had a change of heart on this issue. For context he said the Z-Ground cm + Psychic Noise or Ice Beam is broken. I don’t necessarily disagree that this set is incredibly strong on paper but it is important to remember that this guy takes a lot of turns to setup before it can actually threaten things. Otherwise it is just fodder to status.

Personal predictions: I think Lugia would be a mu fish into Offense/HO and severely limit the bullshit those teams get away with because despite common perception of the meta, I think offense is still the most flexible style and facilitates the most broken abusers. Fat/Stall teams would become more common and I think balance would be the most consistent play style.

Suspect Lugia after Roaring Moon/Magearna/Esparhtra. It is not a priority but it is also not obviously broken, to some people.
 
While yard is very strong and can be annoying to play against. Teams do have outs against it smart plays like getting up rocks quickly. Checks in :tyranitar-mega:, :raging bolt:, :Toxapex:, the latis (:Latios-mega: and :Latias-mega:), :Dragonite:, :Moltres:. Pretty decent list in my humble opinion. I think yard just is one of the lazy build punishers personally. I had my fair share of loses against it and I also abused it but it’s def not broken.

Also while not being a switch in :weavile: kinda shits on sun builds too kinda encourage that guys usage. How you may ask? Well for one nothing comes in on it safely in sun nothing really wants to take knock and it beats sun staples like :Great tusk: and :raging bolt:. One might say but :kingambit: I do not think gambit appreciates a knock lol.
 
I think SpD Grinmsnarl can be a decent check to both Mega Charizard Y and Great Tusk. Of course Grimm is not good into Gambit without drain punch but you can pair it with Zama, Iron Valiant, and Moltres to take care of Gambit and opposing Ghold. This is what I ran in the calc and it's Bulk Up, Light Screen, Reflect, and Spirit Break with Careful Nature which maybe it's not the best set but you can try to see if it works for you guys. I could be wrong but never hurts to try it out you know.
 
Charizard Y is what I would describe as a "Kamikaze Pokemon". It comes in, punches a massive hole in the opponent's team, and then goes down extremely quickly. Another Pokemon like this would be something like Hoopa. If Zard Y is a persistent threat throughout the entire match, you might be doing something wrong. It isn't hard to stop with rocks on the field, that quad weakness will start penalizing its entries really fast. It is often paired with durable removal options like Tusk, but there are enough stops to Rapid Spin in the format, like Dragapult or Gholdengo. If you really have to, you can switch in your anti-removal Pokemon and let it go down so you can force the opponent's Pokemon out with another one of your guys, making it so that they can't remove their hazards. Playing around Zard Y requires you to keep up constant pressure, it's a consistent foil to many hastily built teams and has enough stops to keep it from being too overwhelming. The fact that there are people who seriously want to suspect this Pokemon completely baffles me.
 
It isn't hard to stop with rocks on the field, that quad weakness will start penalizing its entries really fast.
This is why I and many others (Including the Sun sample team) run double removal. I’ve also run a slow pivot to allow the removal to get in easier, along with Roost on Zard-Y for teams where focus blast isn’t necessary. It’s definitely a huge weakness but it can be played around to get the huge benefits of having a Zard-Y last longer. Also idk anyone who seriously wants a suspect. I’ve said how it is very good and can be a bit restrictive, but a properly built team can handle it quite well. It definitely should not be suspected.
 
Guys I recently started playing two Interesting fairy types, I would like to talk abt them.


&


Let's talk about them. Enam imo in this meta is better running Superpower as it snipes AV Gambit and Ttar/Mtar, Fly Z as a Nuke (Seriously it does High damage) Play rough for STAB and Zen Headbutt so it doesn't have to burn Z on any and every Clodsire and pex.
Enam can also run Mixed sets with Superpower as its sole Phys move, with Contrary so it can still spam, and because hey you get spatk boosts from Moonblast now.


Mega Audino on the other hand already scared off people. While it's Obviously a hard check to Draga, why would one use a Mega slot on this? well depending on the EV spread Mega Aud Can check almost everything that doesn't hit is for SE Damage, And thanks to its Huuuuge movepool it can spread Para, knock, Heal bell, Wishtect, Chip things down bit by bit with Dazzling gleam, or do BOOM and snipe shit with its Crazy Coverage
60 SpA Audino-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor-Mega: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
92 Atk Audino-Mega Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 184-220 (50.5 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
92 Atk Audino-Mega Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 188-224 (55.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Audino-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 158-186 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So actually it can do stuff. And it can Skill Swap with stuff Like Gliscor to Table the turns, Yawn things to force Pivot, especially effective with Knock, imo its absence of ability (except if u run Skill swap) is what scares people off, but imo it can be overcame, esp with support like Hazard Control and Hazard themselves.
So you can slap a Coverage move in there, just like slowking will sometimes pull Ice Beam/Flamethrower out its ass to Snipe a mon.
*



So that's it for the Fairies what do you think about Mega Aud? not a lot of things OHko it, by not a lot I mean
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Audino-Mega: 326-384 (79.5 - 93.6%)

but I also have another mon to talk about, to "discuss" eh, and it is none other than
Silly Worm Orthworm!
I like using Orthworm because it's even more reliable of a lando counter than lando, as it resists Z Rock, flying, Explosion, and is ummune to toxic. Why would I not use bronzong for this deed, if I want a Bulky steel that's Immune to Ground and resists Ice (Kyurem coounter)? because Orthworm has better tools. its Heavy slam, STAB and to get rid of fairies, comes from 310kg instead of Bron's 187, it can Trap With Sand Tomb and setup with Coil, thus running a Sand tomb Coil Bpress Itail set, it can restoChesto too or beneficiate from wish support (from, for example, Mega Aud) or run theset I run in Heavy Slam ID BP Spikes. ID BP makes you a literal menace in late game, esp with Heavy slam to dunk on Things that can't OHKO it like HP Fire Lele or Mixed Ival, who thuds into Worm after 1 SD. Orthworm is lso a Spiker that Wins vs the most common Hazard removal, being (Cringe) Defog Corv, CC-less Tusk (Hella common I stg), and Flamethrower-less Terapagos. Earth eater is much better than Levitate also because you're not immune, you HEAL from taking ground type damage. BU Tusk, a potent sweeper if u ask me, is not doing shit to Orthworm, and can get chipped with Helmet. I like Orthworm on Gterrain bcause with lefties it's +12% HP per turn, or with Help you still get passive recovery. The Biggest Drawbacks of Orthworm imo are its lack of toxic, of Recovery move bar rest and of Amnesia. I mean, look at this guy. would you give it you car keys? Of course there are other ones, like 55 Spdef, or the fact it has to have a Teammate that can scout opps' movepools bc it struggles fitting in tect, or even its lack of Shed Tail (Most sane ban this gen) and the fact it has absolutely no shot at ever Damaging a gholdengo bc Picture this, let's take a Coil Set, that can have incr damage output, you trapped a Tusk and Coiled up 6 times, opp sends Bulky dengo and you
+6 0 Atk Orthworm Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Gholdengo: 161-189 (42.5 - 50%)
Literally do NOT 2HKO at +6 attack with a 100BP 215% Acc STAB bc Orth has a Steelix type attack stat, "you better be in lower tiers or else you migh as well use Dragon Rage lol". Anyways I am convinced Orthworm's niche is actually there and if y'all have any suggestion (Other than not using orthworm) on what set using that I might have overooked, tell me.


Lastlyyyy, I want to talk about duck prime. you heard it right, duck prime.


lil Goat has the non-negligible niche of not dropping to any Prio in the tier, thanks to Recover to live sucker punch, Conversion to electric for Bullet punch, and generally the defense boost does the Job against Espeed. imo Conversion to Electric is the best bc like the other contenders are Ice and ghost and in a meta with Kingambit can we afford to be weak to either STAB? Moreover, Ice beam as Coverage is almost as good as Ice beam as STAB, except when you have Ice beam as Coverage it imples you actually live stuff. imo good on Webs, Screens and Gterrain. Gterrain because, well, halving EQ power is great.


Did I say Lastly before PZ? certainly. Do I abide by my own rules? nah.
ANOTHER ONE


Imo this guy provides Speed control, and emergency Flinch to win vs things like specspult, trick is a cool tool and abov all, 70BP Hynosis. Secret power on Gterrain has 30% Sleep, boosted by serene Grace. Sleep the Yard, swtch. Simple but effective mon, discuss guys
 
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