Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

ianlazerbeem said:
Tera Blast is going to score the highest on the survey (if we ever even get one) and we are going to get a 3rd Kyurem suspect, then a 4th one when the inevitable DNB verdict is reached. Either that or there will be no survey and the Kyurem 3 suspect is announced due to a nebulous "people complaining about it" like the ridiculous Gliscor suspect. Calling it now
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It might score high among qualified responders but Tera Blast doesn't have, and hasn't had, the support from the general community to be gone after, so suggesting it'd get the highest score on a survey is awfully strange. It's also strange that you insist a 3rd suspect would be an inevitable DNB result when both prior tests were extremely close (the prior was a single vote away remember) and the mon has only remained controversial, perhaps more so as it continues to adapt to so called counterplay. Don't get me wrong. Personally I'd love a Tera Blast ban as it'd remove an annoying piece of volatility and imbalance, but we're just not there for community support at this point..

I'm just not really sure what you're on about, respectfully. If the community truly feels negatively about Kyurem to the point of wanting to do something, if the situation with the mon hasn't improved and people feel it's negative, I don't see what's wrong with wanting to test it. (And not sure what the Gliscor comment is supposed to even be since it was banned once and barely avoided a second ban, so it's clearly a contentious mon to an extent, so calling a suspect of it ridiculous is kinda just not it).
 
Moyashi said:
It might score high among qualified responders but Tera Blast doesn't have, and hasn't had, the support from the general community to be gone after, so suggesting it'd get the highest score on a survey is awfully strange. It's also strange that you insist a 3rd suspect would be an inevitable DNB result when both prior tests were extremely close (the prior was a single vote away remember) and the mon has only remained controversial, perhaps more so as it continues to adapt to so called counterplay. Don't get me wrong. Personally I'd love a Tera Blast ban as it'd remove an annoying piece of volatility and imbalance, but we're just not there for community support at this point..

I'm just not really sure what you're on about, respectfully. If the community truly feels negatively about Kyurem to the point of wanting to do something, if the situation with the mon hasn't improved and people feel it's negative, I don't see what's wrong with wanting to test it. (And not sure what the Gliscor comment is supposed to even be since it was banned once and barely avoided a second ban, so it's clearly a contentious mon to an extent, so calling a suspect of it ridiculous is kinda just not it).
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The only reason Kyurem remains controversial is because of the people that refuse to accept the results of both suspects. And sure the suspects are "close" and yes if Kyurem is suspected over and over again eventually the combination of people that do/don't get recs will lead to a ban. But if that's going to be how the result is forced, why even bother with the suspect process at all? What I'm "on about" is that this mon has already been democratically voted to remain in the tier twice, it makes the tier better, and finch is still saying on twitter and in Smogon posts there may be another Kyurem suspect soon, without a survey of any kind released in 3 months and without an open survey released in over 6 months, and the wheel of tiering action keeps marching on and on with targets that practically seem drawn from a hat (Gliscor? Seriously?) frankly tiering policy should not even allow for a Mon voted DNB twice to be suspected again for the duration of the generation, or maybe even a fixed period like 5 or 10 years. This is no insane rant, it may even be a premonition.

You and tigers jaw constantly going "virtually nobody wants Tera blast banned" is laughable and extreme cope (on his part at least, perhaps it's just pessimism on yours,) not only is that based on absolutely no data given the survey drought we are in but the most vocal members of the council in charge of this tier are vocal about wanting Tera blast suspected and it scored decently high on the last survey, and, anecdotally speaking I've heard a lot of buzz for a Tera blast suspect for a long time. Whether it actually happens remains to be seen but the interest seems to be there
 
Is there a point in doing a 1 through 5 survey? Is there a better other than non binary way to do it? Perhaps something that resembles rank choice voting? I'm just thinking here

You often see posts encouraging you vote 1 or 5. And I realistically see kyurem as you know, maybe a 3 or 4. But I'm more inclined to give it a 1 since I know all 55% of voters likely feel strongly enough to give it a 5 even if it's obviously not a 5? And a tera blast ban can easily push it down a little. (I'll be so annoyed if someone is dull enough to respond telling me subtect exists).

Because I'd rather see tera blast first I would be gaming my response and others will do the same around their desired outcome. Is there a way to make surveys more legit?

Im glad I'm not the only one that has noticed the pattern around tera blast discourse. Shadowy smoggy forces at work protecting tera blast?
 
Moyashi said:
It might score high among qualified responders but Tera Blast doesn't have, and hasn't had, the support from the general community to be gone after, so suggesting it'd get the highest score on a survey is awfully strange. It's also strange that you insist a 3rd suspect would be an inevitable DNB result when both prior tests were extremely close (the prior was a single vote away remember) and the mon has only remained controversial, perhaps more so as it continues to adapt to so called counterplay. Don't get me wrong. Personally I'd love a Tera Blast ban as it'd remove an annoying piece of volatility and imbalance, but we're just not there for community support at this point..
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how are we to know? it's never actually been on a public survey, just the olt qualifier one. we can't conclusively say we know what the general community thinks of it until we get a survey that's open to the general community

but i do agree with you on one thing: we really, desperately need surveys on a regular basis. not just one every six months. once a month, minimum. if i had a badge i would legit be typing up a pr thread about this
 
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I like the idea of Keldeo. It beats Gliscor + Tera Normal, Kyurem, Kingambit, Tusk, Samurott, Gholdengo, and Flip Turns on everything else (except stupid broken Woger).

I just built a team featuring Keldeo and subtect Clefable.


A ban of Tera Blast would be a positive change to the metagame as it would allow for increased competitiveness due to not having to guess whether or not the mon in front of you will utilize it.
An unban of Regieleki would be kinda scary though. Teams with no ground type or who lost their ground type may just get run over. However, Regieleki will not be banworthy as not only is it walled by Grounds, it is also far too frail and susceptible to priority. We already have a precedent for this as we saw it fall to UU in gen 8, even with the unnerfed Transistor ability. It is cool how it can outspeed booster Iron Valiant by 2 points, though.

Volcarona being unbanned would be interesting, as it is completely walled by Heatran, Moltres, Skeledirge, Clodsire and Toxapex usually, Dragonite, etc. Swords Dance Gliscor also 1v1s it (the bulky set is still OHKOed by +2 Tera Normal Facade lmao) as well as Raging Bolt.

Iron Moth becomes less scary. Serp dies. Enam probably finally goes to UU. Volc being back might just kill Meowscarada. Weavile will stay UU :(

Let’s ban Tera Blast!! :boi:

(Also put down Solgaleo under your extra concerns on the survey!)
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
how are we to know? it's never actually been on a public survey, just the olt qualifier one. we can't conclusively say we know what the general community thinks of it until we get a survey that's open to the general community

i'm trying to be more positive in this new year
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Not only has it not been on any public survey, it's been written in by several people on each one - if the first Volc decision was any indication, write ins can be grounds for a quick ban - why are the ones for Tera blast not even leading to survey inclusion?

If you're trying to be positive how about follow the rule that most children seem to be able to understand, "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all." I agreed with a post you made earlier and you choose to condescend anyway? You have failed your resolution already.
 
Bakugames said:
the real 2025 resolution is for you two to stop fighting and throwing cheap shots at each other. its been 2 years and its always the same thing with youse

anyway. what were yalls favorite sets of 2024? I'm a team stealer unfortunately but i'd love to hear from folks
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Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Hex
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn

Pivot pult is one of the most consistent mons in the meta imo, since its speed control is so nice. I usually bring twave, since wisp is expected more often, and my teams usually like slower opponents.

Samurott-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 184 HP / 140 Atk / 100 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off

Av samu is a favorite of mine, as it combines defensive utility and solid power. Surviving specs crown focus blast and outspeeding uninvested gliscor is very nice.

Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip
- Knock Off

Main man cornerstone is the reason i got into rmts, as it has so much power and strength, alongside underrated utility with sturdy. Adamant is used for the sheer power, which is super nice for getting kills
 
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Bakugames said:
the real 2025 resolution is for you two to stop fighting and throwing cheap shots at each other. its been 2 years and its always the same thing with youse

anyway. what were yalls favorite sets of 2024? I'm a team stealer unfortunately but i'd love to hear from folks
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Kuro @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp

Inspired by Incineroar. “What if Incineroar was fast and not walled by Gliscor?”


Orochi (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Earth Power
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain

Absolute goat. OHKOs Clefable and GKing at +2. Beats Corviknight and Moltres. Walls certain stupid broken Woger sets.


Parts Bullet @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Quick Attack
- U-turn

I LOVE BAND PULT SO MUCH!! SPECS WHO? If you don’t have a Fairy type, you WILL lose.


Here’s a decent team with all 3 of these sets! Give Tusk Boots if you’re scared. https://pokepast.es/0106e252b9e82b05
 
ianlazerbeem said:
The only reason Kyurem remains controversial is because of the people that refuse to accept the results of both suspects. And sure the suspects are "close" and yes if Kyurem is suspected over and over again eventually the combination of people that do/don't get recs will lead to a ban. But if that's going to be how the result is forced, why even bother with the suspect process at all? What I'm "on about" is that this mon has already been democratically voted to remain in the tier twice, it makes the tier better, and finch is still saying on twitter and in Smogon posts there may be another Kyurem suspect soon, without a survey of any kind released in 3 months and without an open survey released in over 6 months, and the wheel of tiering action keeps marching on and on with targets that practically seem drawn from a hat (Gliscor? Seriously?) frankly tiering policy should not even allow for a Mon voted DNB twice to be suspected again for the duration of the generation, or maybe even a fixed period like 5 or 10 years. This is no insane rant, it may even be a premonition.
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Well, I guess one of these points is half-right at least, on the basis that Kyurem survived the second Suspect post-Manipulation-ban because of one self-admitted joke DNB vote (which I would reasonably say, completely separate from any protest of the outcome, isn't in the spirit of Democracy since it was not predicated on what the voter actually desired as an outcome for that one cast). General sentiment I see repeatedly has never posed Kyurem as making the tier better; DNB at most does not consider it unmanageable enough to warrant removal (put more skeptically, it doesn't worsen the tier enough to ban). If there's any mon that can legitimately justify a 3rd Suspect within the "same" Meta (meaning no major roster drop or new mons overhauling the state of things), it's Kyurem given the questionable spirit of its DNB margin and the unique situation of actually having a period of no-Kyurem Meta to compare against the game with it present both then and now. Tangentially, I also don't understand what's so "drawn from a hat" about Gliscor being tested when it's a mon that was banned once, and was suspected again while doing a lot of what it did before plus-some this time.

What's outlandish about Kyurem being controversial amongst people who "refuse to accept the results," when Kyurem DID have a majority Ban vote ratio? Even if not the 60% Supermajority (amongst the kerfuffle mentioned before), the majority of SV players want Kyurem out instead of in, and thus are not going to be particularly positive about the result even if they continue to play while it's here.

I need to stress again: Kyurem literally only survived the 2nd Suspect Test because of a single unserious vote. Policy and respect for the letter of the law means it stays, but that also doesn't mean that a DNB verdict is reflective of community sentiment either.

ianlazerbeem said:
Not only has it not been on any public survey, it's been written in by several people on each one - if the first Volc decision was any indication, write ins can be grounds for a quick ban - why are the ones for Tera blast not even leading to survey inclusion?

If you're trying to be positive how about follow the rule that most children seem to be able to understand, "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all." I agreed with a post you made earlier and you choose to condescend anyway? You have failed your resolution already.
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The Volcarona Quickban was a self-admitted mistake by the Council, so I wouldn't use it as a frame of reference for a tiering action you support positively. I agree that Tera Blast ought to be an explicit survey option given how much talk has surrounded it as an element of the metagame, but the Volc citation is at best irrelevant and at worst runs counter to the change you're advocating.
 
Bakugames said:
the real 2025 resolution is for you two to stop fighting and throwing cheap shots at each other. its been 2 years and its always the same thing with youse

anyway. what were yalls favorite sets of 2024? I'm a team stealer unfortunately but i'd love to hear from folks
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Landorus-Therian @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- U-Turn
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

The GOAT came back from the verge of irrelevancy (hyperbole) to become the offense staple it's always been. (pretty sure this is a 2024 set but I don't actually remember)
 
ianlazerbeem said:
The only reason Kyurem remains controversial is because of the people that refuse to accept the results of both suspects. And sure the suspects are "close" and yes if Kyurem is suspected over and over again eventually the combination of people that do/don't get recs will lead to a ban. But if that's going to be how the result is forced, why even bother with the suspect process at all? What I'm "on about" is that this mon has already been democratically voted to remain in the tier twice,
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No one "refuses" to accept the results. The mon has remained controversial because it's a hugely potent and versatile mon that tends to hand choose counterplay, which has become more true as it's explored Tera Blast options to further expand its threat recently which has only made it harder to answer reliably. It's one thing when a mon pretty solidly remains unbanned and doesn't have any major shifts in playstyle, or the tier adapts to it in a way that makes it even more palatable than it was during its suspect. But Kyurem isn't that. It's adapted to its supposed counterplay, its expanded its set options more and it keeps on pushing boundries. The fact that it was so close, especially the second time, means that it wasn't a truly cut and dry decisive vote and ignoring complaints about it, especially if they grow in volume, would be irresponsible. And you act like every DNB voter is still DNB on it.

ianlazerbeem said:
, it makes the tier better, and finch is still saying on twitter and in Smogon posts there may be another Kyurem suspect soon, without a survey of any kind released in 3 months and without an open survey released in over 6 months, and the wheel of tiering action keeps marching on and on with targets that practically seem drawn from a hat (Gliscor? Seriously?) frankly tiering policy should not even allow for a Mon voted DNB twice to be suspected again for the duration of the generation, or maybe even a fixed period like 5 or 10 years. This is no insane rant, it may even be a premonition.
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"It makes the tier better" really because that's not exactly a unified sentiment. You're more than welcome to feel that way but others do not, as evidenced by it remaining contentious. Plenty of people do not agree with this sentiment at all. What's frustrating is a part of your tone is coming off as bad faith here, as you're not honestly accepting people's thoughts and feelings on the matter. You can roll your eyes or call a Gliscor suspect ridiculous, but good players wanted it so it happened. Also I doubt you'd be singing the same tune regarding tiering policy and not allowing more than two suspects if it were a mon that you hated that escaped a ban twice. Also... what does "it may even be a premonition" even mean here.

ianlazerbeem said:
You and tigers jaw constantly going "virtually nobody wants Tera blast banned" is laughable and extreme cope (on his part at least, perhaps it's just pessimism on yours,) not only is that based on absolutely no data given the survey drought we are in but the most vocal members of the council in charge of this tier are vocal about wanting Tera blast suspected and it scored decently high on the last survey, and, anecdotally speaking I've heard a lot of buzz for a Tera blast suspect for a long time. Whether it actually happens remains to be seen but the interest seems to be there
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I'd ask you kindly not strawman and actual read what I said, because I never said "virtually nobody wants tera blast banned", I specifically said the general community hasn't shown support strong enough, as it has come across as not thinking it's a big enough problem. I pointed out that top players were more in support of a suspect of the move.

ianlazerbeem said:
Not only has it not been on any public survey, it's been written in by several people on each one - if the first Volc decision was any indication, write ins can be grounds for a quick ban - why are the ones for Tera blast not even leading to survey inclusion?
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Maybe don't cite an incident that everyone generally agrees was a poor decision.
 
mcribs said:
Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Hex
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn

Pivot pult is one of the most consistent mons in the meta imo, since its speed control is so nice. I usually bring twave, since wisp is expected more often, and my teams usually like slower opponents.
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I agree that PivotPult is great but it’s also doing jack shit physically with that spread. You’d be better off just going with Draco Meteor.
 
Seraphyde said:
I agree that PivotPult is great but it’s also doing jack shit physically with that spread. You’d be better off just going with Draco Meteor.
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Draco meteor is a good move to have, but it makes pult especially weak with the special attack drop. Darts are nice to force clod and blissey to recover, so theres not much need to invest that much. I do agree that draco has better MU into ground types
 
Is there some merit to the idea of running Blissey on non stall teams in big 2025? It's a staple in older generations balances because of its inmense special bulk and, well, it's still inmense and can switch into every special threat, :iron moth: :raging bolt: :darkrai: :gholdengo:,... Is there a good reason why we only see Blissey on stall now? For example, this set (tera can be other things)

Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
 
AerionT said:
Is there some merit to the idea of running Blissey on non stall teams in big 2025? It's a staple in older generations balances because of its inmense special bulk and, well, it's still inmense and can switch into every special threat, :iron moth: :raging bolt: :darkrai: :gholdengo:,... Is there a good reason why we only see Blissey on stall now? For example, this set (tera can be other things)

Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
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I do think that Blissey on non stall comps can be explored more, but the reason why it isn't really used a lot on non stall is because its a bit passive. It can let in a lot of things that you don't really want, which can be incredibly annoying. Also ting lu and glowking can cover fast amounts of the special threats, while being more proactive.
Still think it should be explored more, I experimented a bit with it on non stall, and it can definetely work well.
 
Palafin unbanned? Boo
It's funny how whenever I vote for something, the opposite result happens. Voted for Kyurem ban, it ended up unbanned because of voter fraud situation. Voted for Palafin unbanned, and it still gets banned.
 
CM + Serene Grace + BoltBeam Tera Steel Blissey sounds like a fun way to infuriate your opponent, though you can do the same with Dudunsparce who has more physical bulk + Boomburst at the expense of initial Special bulk.
 
Kibo said:
maybe Za combat system will be the one in main games, and not Arceus combat system, since with megas you'd need abilities and items to make em fully work,
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Regigigas has Slow Start in PLA despite the lack of abilities and LGPE had mega evolutions without held items existing (interestingly this led to Mewtwo and Charizard getting to pick which mega they wanted mid battle). I wouldn't get your hopes up just yet for traditional combat. Items and abilities could also be imported into the PLZA system just as they were imported into GSC and ADV.
 
AerionT said:
Is there some merit to the idea of running Blissey on non stall teams in big 2025? It's a staple in older generations balances because of its inmense special bulk and, well, it's still inmense and can switch into every special threat, :iron moth: :raging bolt: :darkrai: :gholdengo:,... Is there a good reason why we only see Blissey on stall now? For example, this set (tera can be other things)

Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
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Chansey has actually been used successfully on non stall teams, here and here for example. It's preferred over Blissey due to being bulkier on the physical side and a bit less of a momentum sink, as long as you have something else to handle Ghold.
 
Bakugames said:
anyway. what were yalls favorite sets of 2024? I'm a team stealer unfortunately but i'd love to hear from folks
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As a chief, let me provide only the highest tier tech:
Ursaluna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Dragon / Fairy / Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Crunch

My favorite set I've been using not long into my SV hurrah. SPD Ursaluna absolutely FUCKS and it's easily my favorite Mon to use outside of best Catto. The amount of games I've just won due to the sheer bulk and steady power is great!

Okidogi @ Leftovers
Ability: Guard Dog
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 96 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off

An Okidogi designed around setting up and sponging hits. Absolutely walls Zama, Corv, etc without a single issue. tera Dark to bait glowkings and stall match ups.

NYA NYA CAT (Meowscarada) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Flower Trick
- Tera Blast
- Triple Axel

cat
 
Bakugames said:
anyway. what were yalls favorite sets of 2024? I'm a team stealer unfortunately but i'd love to hear from folks
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Stall breaker webs abuser (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Throat Spray
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Electric/Fire/Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psychic Noise
- Hyperspace Fury/Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Thunderbolt

I loved using this on webs as Hoopa-U can break most of stall and can almost ohko tusk with psychic noise, can probably live an univested gholdengo shadow ball not sure about make it rain but yeah that's it ^^
(Just pray it doesn't take a choice locked item that's useless for it)
 
senorlopez said:
This is simply ignorant and not true even in modern times, though it sways away from mons conversation. I could cite examples of far right parties in Europe gaining political power as a result of protest votes to the two party system to highlight controversial topics such as immigration policy (UKIP,REFORM etc). This as an example, also happened in the 2016 US election where third party protest votes helped Trump win swing states such as Pennsylvania and Wisconsin even though there was obviously no chance that a third party was going to win. There are many many examples protest votes have been used in history to incite change.
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sv ou don't bring up politics in the meta discussion thread challenge (impossible)

please reread the post. i specified that protest votes don't accomplish anything for the people casting them. the only thing protest voting accomplishes in a system with only two possible outcomes (such as suspect tests) is swaying the vote towards one of the two primary options, usually the one the protest voters like the least. it never actually benefits the people who are doing the protest voting
 
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