Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history.
absolutely not. this clause has been a pretty silly leftover from old tiering and we finally got rid of it for a proper sleep ban. either sleep is a broken status in its entirety or it isnt, we shouldnt consider the heavily altered version of sleep when talking about the mechanic
 
Ogerpon right now is overwhelming to deal with for balance teams and is almost single handedly making the playstyle unviable currently. I am hesitant to wave the ban hammer at everything.

My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history. The sleep clause ban artificially nerfed defensive grass types (a type that is generally bad defensively, but also necessary to have a lot of the time) resulting in no good defensive grass types in OU which is a huge reason oger feels overwhelming.

The immediate impact of this overturn is that amoongus is once again viable. A viable amoongus means that balance has something to not only deal with oger, but shut it down nigh completely, preventing ogerpon from being overbearing.

The sleep ban was unnecessary and pointless regardless. It is not like sleep moves were overbearing when we have gholdengo in the tier. I implore the council to consider this action before we try to ban ogerpon.
Sleep in horrendously uncompetitive in singles. It's not just darkrai.

Yeah, darkrai is broken with hypnosis. But Iron valiant is also stupid sometimes. Random sleep powder/spore/etc shitters like venusaur, hilligant, breloom are also insanely annoying. Red Card amoonguss can genuinely just lose you the game with absolutely no fault of your own.

Absolutely no top players miss sleep, it's one of the most unanimously agreed upon good bans in SV OU's history. Don't even suggest bringing it back.
 
My suggestion is to revert the sleep ban back to the clause it was for all the rest of comp mons history. The sleep clause ban artificially nerfed defensive grass types (a type that is generally bad defensively, but also necessary to have a lot of the time) resulting in no good defensive grass types in OU which is a huge reason oger feels overwhelming.
sinistcha and hydrapple are both pretty good
 
sinistcha and hydrapple are both pretty good
both can lose to coverage. sinistcha to knock, hydra to play rough. They are solid but not the surest answers.

Sleep in horrendously uncompetitive in singles. It's not just darkrai.

Yeah, darkrai is broken with hypnosis. But Iron valiant is also stupid sometimes. Random sleep powder/spore/etc shitters like venusaur, hilligant, breloom are also insanely annoying. Red Card amoonguss can genuinely just lose you the game with absolutely no fault of your own.

Absolutely no top players miss sleep, it's one of the most unanimously agreed upon good bans in SV OU's history. Don't even suggest bringing it back.

Uncompetitive has always been and will always be a stupid argument. This is Pokémon. Are we going to ban body slam because it can para? Are we going to ban twave because you can get full parad 20 times in a row? Are we going to ban all attacks but stoss because they can crit?

Something is either broken or it isnt. And sleep isnt since gen 5. Darkrai is an exception that might be broken because it's darkrai not because of sleep. Hypnosis Val? You really think that is a broken set? Red card amoongus was a broken pokemon when sleep existed? Show me the vr that has amoongus at S+.

People really lose to something once and want it banned. This is wild.
 
both can lose to coverage. sinistcha to knock, hydra to play rough. They are solid but not the surest answers.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Amoonguss: 360-424 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

what's with the amoonguss glazing every time someone brings up sleep, the mon is annoying to face and not even fun to use when your opponent has a gholdengo or gliscor (so like, 40% of teams)
 
both can lose to coverage. sinistcha to knock, hydra to play rough. They are solid but not the surest answers.



Uncompetitive has always been and will always be a stupid argument. This is Pokémon. Are we going to ban body slam because it can para? Are we going to ban twave because you can get full parad 20 times in a row? Are we going to ban all attacks but stoss because they can crit?

Something is either broken or it isnt. And sleep isnt since gen 5. Darkrai is an exception that might be broken because it's darkrai not because of sleep. Hypnosis Val? You really think that is a broken set? Red card amoongus was a broken pokemon when sleep existed? Show me the vr that has amoongus at S+.

People really lose to something once and want it banned. This is wild.
Sleep (while heavily nerfed with a clause) was totally balanced I swear!!! (except for 2/9 generations in which even the nerfed sleep became problematic) Just because gamefreak specifically attempted to balance spore through distribution doesn't mean the status on the whole is not both broken and uncompetitive, to the point where sleep clause became needed in the first place.
 
I went digging into the archives a few days ago to research Terastallization again. After a string of frustrating losses that felt dictated more by luck than strategy, I realized that the variance introduced by Tera mechanics deserved a deeper look. My goal was to understand what makes it such a polarizing mechanic and how it could be improved. After losing several low-ladder coin-flip matchups, I realized the problem with Tera is not Tera Blast or the type-flipping component to become immune to a previously 4x weak attack, but rather the variance caused by having so many different unknown Tera choices. This variance can save unwinnable scenarios far too often. The solution to this is "Open Tera," or revealing Tera types at Team Preview. This idea gained traction during the suspect test two years ago. The Tera vote itself was one of the closest in Smogon history (59% in favor of action), and the action preferred was Tera Preview. I didn’t count the votes myself, but my guess is that two years ago, if Tera Preview had been the choice against no action, it would have won outright.

SV OU is not a perfect metagame. However, it is redeemable because of its strong foundation of diverse team archetypes and creative strategies. The tools for a balanced and competitive experience are already in place; they just need refinement to mitigate excessive variance and improve gameplay consistency. Tons of suspect test ideas have been thrown around in various threads. The Palafin test was a huge missed opportunity to address the real root cause of SV OU discontentment. When the idea of a "community-led" suspect test arose, I created an internal big board of over 30 different suspect test ideas, including all A+ VR Pokémon and above, bringing down unloved Ubers, retesting previous controversial cases, and tweaking game mechanics. Among all these, "Open Tera" stood out because it most closely addressed the root cause of SV OU frustration: its abnormally high variance in results.

Some variance is tolerable and even encouraged. For example, moves like Scald introducing the chance of a burn or secondary effects like flinches from Air Slash add an element of unpredictability without completely overriding strategy. Pokémon is not chess; it has nondeterministic elements that make each match unique and exciting. If games didn’t have randomness, casinos wouldn’t exist because there’d be no reason to pull the lever on a slot machine. However, too much variance bails out players in poor positions far too often. This makes the game far less enjoyable. Losing to hax feels bad, but at least there are ways to minimize risks and play better. Tera, on the other hand, can feel like a “get out of jail free” card, flipping outcomes with minimal counterplay.

The Eight Components of Terastallization​

Terastallization is built on eight distinct components that make it a unique mechanic. While each of these adds depth to the gameplay, they also combine to amplify variance to a level that can feel unmanageable. Understanding these components helps clarify how they contribute to both strategic opportunities and frustration. While some of these encourage strategic depth, others significantly amplify variance:

  1. Type Transformation: The ability to change a Pokémon’s type to any other type creates flexibility, allowing surprise immunities or resistances.
  2. Tera Blast: A special move that adapts to the user’s higher offensive stat and matches their Tera type, offering unique coverage options.
  3. STAB Amplification: Pokémon that Terastallize into their original type gain an enhanced 2× multiplier on their STAB moves, compared to the standard 1.5×. This 33% increase in damage output significantly enhances their offensive pressure.
  4. Surprise Element: Without Tera Preview, opponents must guess the Tera type, creating high-stakes situations where wrong predictions flip games unexpectedly.
  5. Defensive Resilience: Tera allows a Pokémon to neutralize or reduce previously crippling weaknesses, such as Garchomp using Steel Tera to counter Ice and Fairy.
  6. Synergistic Interactions: Certain items (e.g., Assault Vest) and abilities (e.g., Protean) synergize with Tera, redefining a Pokémon’s role mid-battle.
  7. Strategic Type-Matching: Teams can leverage Tera types to counter threats or create synergies, such as Dragonite’s Normal Tera enhancing Extreme Speed.
  8. Mid-Battle Role Reversal: Tera enables dynamic role shifts, such as Dragapult becoming defensive with Fairy Tera to counter threats it couldn’t otherwise handle.
These elements interact to create unprecedented levels of variance. For example, the combination of defensive resilience (Component 5) and surprise element (Component 4) often leaves players unable to predict or counter effectively, flipping games in unpredictable ways.

Historical Precedent for Action​

Smogon has addressed problematic mechanics in the past when they threatened the competitive integrity of the game. For example, Sleep Clause and the Dynamax ban were broadly supported because they restored balance to the game. While controversial at first, these decisions ultimately enhanced competitive play and earned widespread acceptance. Tera Preview aligns with this precedent as a measured approach to preserving strategic depth while addressing its flaws. For example:

  • Sleep Clause: Implemented to mitigate the randomness of sleep spam, despite being outside cartridge rules.
  • Dynamax Ban: Dynamax was deemed too powerful for competitive play and removed entirely in Gen 8 OU.
  • National Dex itself is a modification to bring back Dexited components of previous generations.
Tera Preview aligns with this tradition. It preserves the strategic depth of Terastallization while mitigating its variance. Dynamax was laughably overpowered and had no place in OU; Tera is far less egregious but suffers from an overabundance of unpredictable outcomes.

Missed Opportunities and Future Directions​

I don’t fault any tier leader—they’ve done incredible work, and I certainly wouldn’t want that job. That said, as a community, we’ve made systemic missteps that have compounded over time, leaving key opportunities to improve the tier unaddressed. However, as a community, we’ve made systemic missteps:

  • Kyurem: Mishandled twice, it dominated the tier and warped team-building before being banned (and then unbanned after joke votes intended to have no impact kept it alive when a cheating scandal broke out.)
  • Kingambit: A razor-thin vote allowed it to run unchecked, becoming one of the biggest problems in OU.
  • Palafin: A suspect test could have addressed Tera's overwhelming presence, but the opportunity was missed.
These decisions weren’t made by any single individual, but they’ve shaped the current state of SV OU. We now have the chance to fix Tera before inaction causes permanent damage. Open Tera would reduce variance without removing the mechanic entirely, striking a balance between innovation and competitive fairness.

Call to Action​

Inaction is a choice. The closer we get to the end of SV’s lifecycle, the harder it becomes to make meaningful changes. Open Tera offers a solution that respects the spirit of Terastallization while addressing its flaws. Let’s not let this opportunity slip away again. The future of SV OU depends on our willingness to act now.
 
I think adding sleep back would be very bad for balance teams. As we all know, Gen 9's power level is very high, and being able to throw off a sleep and effectively eliminate a role that may have been necessary to stop a slough of offense would be very difficult to handle. Of course you could perhaps say that balance could make use of sleep and its users itself, but offensive dynamics that center around sleep don't sound very healthy to me.
 
I forgot who said this, but it was something along the lines of “Sleep isn’t only problematic when it works, it’s also problematic when it doesn’t, if you have a dedicated sleep sack and Hypnosis fails, you’re now in a much worse position because your sleep sack is going to get either killed or set up on, and your previous counter can still get put to sleep”

The idea that Sleep is anything but broken is absolutely laughable, just flat out disabling a team member is brainless cheese that makes the game objectively worse to play in. For the most part, every Pokemon is important to a team, even on HO there are some mons that you would rather preserve, getting what’s at worst a phaze (that, unlike WW or DTail, can’t be undone immediately) and at best a free kill and/or free setup is often all that you need to win the game. Such strategies were meant for 10 year olds who can’t find away around a certain Pokemon on a Gym Leader’s team, not actual competitive play that demands skill from its players.
 
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I think the reason there's always people bringing up the sleep ban every so often is that whenever any mid/low tier options in any competitive game get nerfed, there's always going to be pushback either from the small pool of people using said options or by regular people wondering why underpowered stuff gets worse even if it is for the 'greater good'. It reminds me of Yugioh banlist discourse where a powerful card gets banned due to being abused by top tier decks, many rejoice while some complain about how their deck needs that staple to reach its potential. It's not a logical feeling, but not hard to understand where it comes from and will probably keep popping up for a long time.
If nothing else, I used to be vehemently against how sleep was handled as well, but as I played more games, I began to be willing to look at the bigger picture as at minimum, sleep is too format warping in a metagame this explosive and is arguably not healthy in the metagames before Gen 9 (but that's a different can of worms)


+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Amoonguss: 360-424 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
You could tell me Pokemon were real I would still find it more believable than the idea of Zen Headbutt Ogrepon.
 
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I am still DNB on Ogerbroad, but I am less supportive of its existence now. Trailblaze variants are just as obnoxious as R*pid Sp*n Great Tusk, oftentimes just mashing STAB or coverage options on everything after a speed boost, with little to no issues. Ironically, this is probably a reason to be in the DNB camp as balance and fat teams that use it can often overwhelm offense and HO by just being too fast, Horn Leech also provides consistent longevity which is something that balance and fat teams need. People complain about its offensive capabilities but that's usually a byproduct of them ignoring its anti-offense capabilities.
 
Inaction is a choice. The closer we get to the end of SV’s lifecycle, the harder it becomes to make meaningful changes. Open Tera offers a solution that respects the spirit of Terastallization while addressing its flaws. Let’s not let this opportunity slip away again. The future of SV OU depends on our willingness to act now.
I don’t think tera preview is a good enough measure to satisfy most people who actually want action on it.

Tera preview is an interesting idea in theory, revealing tera types before the game theoretically allows you to not get surprised by cheesy or surprising teras. VGC is an example of something like this, as open teamsheets allow tera types (and more) to be available to the opponent. I think the big problems with tera preview are that it a) does not work as well with how the established format for most tournament and serious games go, and b) can very easily leak other details about a mon’s set, thereby revealing a lot more than just tera type.

Most Smogon tournament games are player in a Best of Three format, wherein you are able to switch teams between different sets and a huge importance is placed on information gathering and metagame knowledge to extrapolate based on that info gathering. Tera Preview is highly conducive to both of these, giving your opponent a slate of information about all 6 of your mons.

For example, say you and your opponent both have a Kingambit and an Iron Valiant. Your Kingambit is Tera Dark and your Val is Tera Electric. Their Kingambit is tera Fairy and their Val is Tera Dark. It’s fairly easy for your opponent to surmise that you are tera electric because you’re running thunderbolt- a tera choice you would pretty much only go for on a Calm Mind Valiant- and your Kingambit likely has an offensive EV spread and double dark move + SD as well as black glasses. Their Kingambit, on the other hand, is running a defensive tera fairy indicating that it’s most likely a defensive Kingambit with Lum Berry or Leftovers, and their Valiant is tera dark, a typing you essentially only see on SD Val. Overall, just from the tera preview you’ve both gained a massive informational boost just by looking at the tera preview. Without tera preview, the better player is going to be better at looking at team preview and the information shown throughout the game to figure out what the most likely set is for a given mon and thus the counterplay to it. I believe one of the most important parts of mons is figuring out what set your opponent is so you can understand how best to deal with that set, and in turn how you can utilize your unknown sets to surprise your opponent and gain the advantage. In a sense, the ability to adapt to and figure out what your opponent is running is actually one of the more skill-based aspects in the game that rewards metagame knowledge and creativity in the builder. Tera preview is by no means the Open Team Sheets of VGC, but it levels the informational playing field in a way that does not actually make the game more competitive. If your opponent is able to pull out a surprise tera type and reverse sweep you, that is, in my opinion, largely your fault. When playing a set, it is your responsibility to ensure you are positioned in a way that a given mon doesn’t sweep you, tera or not. If a mon is so broken that there is literally nothing you could do about it, either change your team or ban it. If tera is so overwhelmingly broken that you had no chance simply because there was a surprise tera type, then tera should probably be banned.

In my opinion, open tera both trivializes the informational aspect of playing pokemon and does not actually fix any of the unhealthy metagame dynamics that might be caused by tera.

In its attempt to satisfy everyone, it literally satisfies no one.
 
You could tell me Pokemon were real I would still find it more believable than the idea of Zen Headbutt Ogrepon.
I mean, i'd believe it. Back in DLC1, Amoonguss still had Spore to carry it, and there was no Play Rough needed since Raging Bolt and Hydrapple didn't exist yet. Also, Rillaboom was everywhere but that's besides the point because RIllaboom gets fried by Power Whip thanks to its own terrain (and would become irrelevant come Sneasler's ban + DLC2 regardless). As such, you could afford to fit the coverage since nothing else really wanted to come in on that mon - I don't think Sinistcha was as big as it is now. though, Encore was nice to stop Manaphy while it was still a threat in the tier.
 
I don’t think tera preview is a good enough measure to satisfy most people who actually want action on it.

Tera preview is an interesting idea in theory, revealing tera types before the game theoretically allows you to not get surprised by cheesy or surprising teras. VGC is an example of something like this, as open teamsheets allow tera types (and more) to be available to the opponent. I think the big problems with tera preview are that it a) does not work as well with how the established format for most tournament and serious games go, and b) can very easily leak other details about a mon’s set, thereby revealing a lot more than just tera type.

Most Smogon tournament games are player in a Best of Three format, wherein you are able to switch teams between different sets and a huge importance is placed on information gathering and metagame knowledge to extrapolate based on that info gathering. Tera Preview is highly conducive to both of these, giving your opponent a slate of information about all 6 of your mons.

For example, say you and your opponent both have a Kingambit and an Iron Valiant. Your Kingambit is Tera Dark and your Val is Tera Electric. Their Kingambit is tera Fairy and their Val is Tera Dark. It’s fairly easy for your opponent to surmise that you are tera electric because you’re running thunderbolt- a tera choice you would pretty much only go for on a Calm Mind Valiant- and your Kingambit likely has an offensive EV spread and double dark move + SD as well as black glasses. Their Kingambit, on the other hand, is running a defensive tera fairy indicating that it’s most likely a defensive Kingambit with Lum Berry or Leftovers, and their Valiant is tera dark, a typing you essentially only see on SD Val. Overall, just from the tera preview you’ve both gained a massive informational boost just by looking at the tera preview. Without tera preview, the better player is going to be better at looking at team preview and the information shown throughout the game to figure out what the most likely set is for a given mon and thus the counterplay to it. I believe one of the most important parts of mons is figuring out what set your opponent is so you can understand how best to deal with that set, and in turn how you can utilize your unknown sets to surprise your opponent and gain the advantage. In a sense, the ability to adapt to and figure out what your opponent is running is actually one of the more skill-based aspects in the game that rewards metagame knowledge and creativity in the builder. Tera preview is by no means the Open Team Sheets of VGC, but it levels the informational playing field in a way that does not actually make the game more competitive. If your opponent is able to pull out a surprise tera type and reverse sweep you, that is, in my opinion, largely your fault. When playing a set, it is your responsibility to ensure you are positioned in a way that a given mon doesn’t sweep you, tera or not. If a mon is so broken that there is literally nothing you could do about it, either change your team or ban it. If tera is so overwhelmingly broken that you had no chance simply because there was a surprise tera type, then tera should probably be banned.

In my opinion, open tera both trivializes the informational aspect of playing pokemon and does not actually fix any of the unhealthy metagame dynamics that might be caused by tera.

In its attempt to satisfy everyone, it literally satisfies no one.
Your point is valid that predicting a Kingambit’s Tera type should involve accounting for the most common possibilities, but the problem is the unreasonable breadth of viable options. It’s not just about handling “most” of those moves but addressing how an off-meta Tera can completely circumvent the prepared counterplay.

For example, in one of my matches, I had Corviknight positioned perfectly to handle Kingambit, only for it to reveal Tera Ghost and completely nullify my planned counterplay. I had the game in hand if it had been any other Tera option. Tera Ghost is a common Kingambit Tera type, but teambuilding in SV OU is too constrained to account for 18 possible Tera options simultaneously. This isn’t just a matter of poor prep—it’s a flaw in how Tera mechanics introduce unpredictable variance. Even with experience, you can’t reasonably account for every possible Tera type, leading to unavoidable losses that feel out of the player’s control.

Open Tera solves this by allowing players to craft strategies around known Tera types during Team Preview. It preserves the strategic depth of timing Tera effectively but removes the frustration of blind guessing. This makes the mechanic more competitive while retaining its unique flavor.
 
I haven't played SV since I beat the game.

When you say open tera- is this mechanic in the game? Or only with full open team sheets?

Because we're certainly sticking with what's possible in game at this point

And I don't think smogon community wants full open team sheets

Back on topic of Tera blast ban
 
When you say open tera- is this mechanic in the game? Or only with full open team sheets?
No they mean you know your opponent's tera types as part of team preview, but not the other parts of their pokemon's sets like moves Evs natures items etc.
Is that a thing in the game or a gentleman's agreement thing where we're agreeing to tell eachother ahead of time? I don't really like it but could support if Tera blast ban doesn't ease concerns

No tera blast bans doesn't stop fire ghost dark fairy Gambits though. Fairy a little since blast usually accompanies

Edit forgot Flying
I think they mean modding showdown. Afaik in VGC team sheet doesn't include tera as well. Correct me if I'm wrong
 
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Open Tera solves this by allowing players to craft strategies around known Tera types during Team Preview. It preserves the strategic depth of timing Tera effectively but removes the frustration of blind guessing. This makes the mechanic more competitive while retaining its unique flavor.
Respectfully, no. Open Tera does not solve this problem at all and I'm confused why you went from "you can't reasonably account for every possible tera" to that. The issue you describe of "too many tera options" is ultimately a variance element that affects the builder more than anything. There's a lot of high powered centralizing threats like Raging Bolt, Kingambit, Wellspring, Kyurem, Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, Samurott-H (that's right I called Hamurott centralizing), Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, and yes it's difficult to truly account for all of them along with their various tera types. You can only prep for so much, which brings me to my main point,

What does Open Tera do for this? The issue isn't not being able to strategize because you lack info on their tera type, the issue you describe is functionally a match up problem due to constraints on the builder because of too much variance and not enough resources to account for enough of it. Knowing Gambit is Ghost type won't ultimately change anything if you weren't able to prep for that specific Tera type. This is compounded by the way so many of the top tier threats I mentioned often are being stacked on the same team together, and overwhelming one another's checks.
 
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