Unpopular opinions

Thanks, I got to read DP adventure. I bet it's absolute cinema.
I was also thinking about a Cynthia saving you last minute, but I wanted to give Charon some attention because let's be honest, he needs it after getting zero time in Platinum and got unnecessarily 1984d in BDSP. Thanks ILCA.
So what did you think of my scenario?
 
The snag I usually run into when discussing unwinnable boss fights is that it's a massive bad feeling to blow a bunch of consumables on something that looks like a legit fight but isn't. For pokemon specifically, in addition to being undesirable for that reason, a convincing illusion that this is a real fight and not a cutscene that happens to take place in the battle screen doesn't feel that practically achievable. The possibility space of what a player could be bringing is too large. Traded level 100s, evasion or other rng, more potions than the enemy has PP are all things that the script would need to be able to handle. I recall seeing Terapagos blatantly dealing damage after triggering sturdy because it's scripted to defeat Kerian, now imagine that happening without a complicated skill swap setup. That's not something that gives the impression of the opponent needing to be taken seriously, it's an indication to stop trying and go along with the railroaded plot.
 
The snag I usually run into when discussing unwinnable boss fights is that it's a massive bad feeling to blow a bunch of consumables on something that looks like a legit fight but isn't. For pokemon specifically, in addition to being undesirable for that reason, a convincing illusion that this is a real fight and not a cutscene that happens to take place in the battle screen doesn't feel that practically achievable. The possibility space of what a player could be bringing is too large. Traded level 100s, evasion or other rng, more potions than the enemy has PP are all things that the script would need to be able to handle. I recall seeing Terapagos blatantly dealing damage after triggering sturdy because it's scripted to defeat Kerian, now imagine that happening without a complicated skill swap setup. That's not something that gives the impression of the opponent needing to be taken seriously, it's an indication to stop trying and go along with the railroaded plot.
Yeah people tend to skip over the issue of how you make a battle truly unwinnable without either removing player agency or crafting an opponent that'd be equally unbeatable at the climax.

The standard answer is to make the opponent very overlevelled but not invincible and then, if the player somehow does win, things proceed like they've always done when you win a midgame evil boss fight: the protagonist stands very still while the boss monologues a bit and then walks away. This is very boring, though!

The other, smaller issue with unwinnable boss battles in Pokemon is that the battle system is heavily slanted towards OHKOs, especially if one side has a significant advantage in level or stats. This helps speed up overworld route-clearing, but doesn't make for a very interesting or narratively tense battle when you're on the receiving end.
 
>nuzlockers having to watch six of their pokemon who just survived the Mars fight just die because the script said so
 

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Unwinnable fights don't need to be in the literal battle, you can have them be cutscenes instead, which cuts a lot of the problems imo. Its not like fighting an unwinnable battle in the pokemon battle system is that engaging and epic, i think a cutscene of you getting bodied and maybe it cuts to all your pokemon having 1 hp or something makes sense
But that still relies heavily on you having a team with an 'expected' level of strength, while also wresting away your agency and not giving you the direct experience with the boss that makes forced losses interesting to me as, like, a teaser of what's to come. Once we're talking about an unwinnable cutscene in Pokemon, I'm no longer thinking about potential problems, but rather wondering what actual benefits it brings to the player experience.

It's hard, because I like the idea of normalising defeat and I think making losses a more typical part of the Pokemon experience would give the devs licence to make the games more challenging. I just haven't heard a description of an unwinnable battle that resonates.
 
But that still relies heavily on you having a team with an 'expected' level of strength, while also wresting away your agency and not giving you the direct experience with the boss that makes forced losses interesting to me as, like, a teaser of what's to come
I guess im just of a different mind about this but i dont think this is much of an issue? if you first meet this boss where the range of levels is from low 20s to low 30s depending on your commitment to the grind, if you find out all their pokemon were high 60s it makes perfect sense to get beaten up. sure, cases like having a random level 100 pokemon makes this look goofy, but having a random level 100 pokemon makes most of the game goofy in general lol.

and i think just including the pokemon themselves (or at least one or two) is a pretty fun teaser of what you'll have to face in the future.
 
Fwiw, it was known that Pokemon SM/USUM were basically the limit of what the 3ds could handle and it's a miracle they even run.

USUM world championship was expecially tragic cause the game would slow down to < 10 fps whenever a field + Mega Rayquaza were on field. Even the 3DS XL couldn't keep up.
that doesn't make me feel any better. You make games for the platforms you have, not the ones you wish you had. I shouldn't have to buy a special version of the 3ds to improve the experience. especially not so late in the console's cycle. but that's getting into the weeds. Point blank, there's no reason for the games to be as slow as they were, if the effect of your decisions is pushing the limit, then change the decisions.
 
that doesn't make me feel any better. You make games for the platforms you have, not the ones you wish you had. I shouldn't have to buy a special version of the 3ds to improve the experience. especially not so late in the console's cycle. but that's getting into the weeds. Point blank, there's no reason for the games to be as slow as they were, if the effect of your decisions is pushing the limit, then change the decisions.
They did, that's why gen 7 removed triple and rotation battles.
 
I'm sorry, but having mons be 13-16k tris average on a 3DS was always stupid, that's literally Xbox360 tier. The average for the 3DS across most games was 1-4K

They should've had models GC/Wii tier, but nooo. They barely optimized the Zbrush sculpts from Creatures Inc (and yes, the leaks have these for some mons)

The char models in ORAS/SuMo are fine, well suited for the system. The mons aren't, and while one can argue that they're future proofed, that's something Creatures should deal with, not GameFreak. Pokedex 3D Pro models can afford being absurdly high poly cuz that's not dealing with actual gameplay, much less online (like SSBM trophies being super high poly, but chars are standard)

And again, this is all on a 240p system. There's no benefit for an actual game
 
I feel like the obvious answer to forced losses is to put them at the beginning of the game when the player shouldn't have many resources to waste or ways to cheese the fight. SV already did this with Houndoom. Having the evil head honcho show up at the end of route 1 and beat your punk ass with a level 56 Gyarados and four unknown Pokemon in the back before calling you lame and disappearing until the climax could work.
 
I thought of something similar to this, but for the Celestic Town encounter. I'd personally be inclined to keep "attempting to kill the player" as Ghetsis' thing and just stick with my aforementioned idea of Cyrus crushing you in battle as a final warning to not muck things up more than you already have. If we wanna go the Epic Infanticide Moment route, though, I'd have Cynthia save you. Maybe edit the scenery so that instead of one random grunt there's an entire brigade swarming Celestic Town

Not gonna go any deeper than that b/c I'm just writing fanfiction now so I'll just leave off with the fun fact that all of this basically happened in Diamond & Pearl Adventure. When Hareta meets Cyrus at Celestic Town he brings out his Gyarados who blows up the bridge on Route 210 causing Hareta to fall into the river. It's pretty raw!
As a DP Adventure Stan, I want to add a detail that I think contributes to the Cyrus point and might actually be a workaround to the "Hopeless Boss Fight" issue.

Prior to the Gyarados scene mentioned, Cyrus is fighting and easily dominating a battle with Hareta's Piplup (delayed evolution but it's not a Pikachu situation I swear) using his Weavile, the latter fainting near the end to a Torrent boosted attack. Cyrus finds himself trembling with anticipation (not necessarily fear), only to bring out Gyarados and blow Hareta away because he considers letting his emotions slip a sign Hareta is dangerous (and even chastises himself for still flying off the handle in response too). Notably in this manga, Cyrus only displays these two Pokemon in Battle before Spear Pillar, but the Gyarados alone is imposing enough to cow every other opponent or ally into submission (Saturn visibly groveling despite flooring the Gym Leaders and holding the advantage for most of his battle with Hareta).

I think the following make this a reasonable approach even in gameplay
  • Fighting only a portion of their team mans they can go "quality over quantity" with what may be a strong-for-mid game fully evolved Pokemon. Weavile would be a very high stat Pokemon for Celestic Town, and levels are easier to explain away as "gamey" than the Evo stage
  • Member number can be excused by the "testing you/you're not worth my full power" mentality for an early encounter
  • Defeating the battling mon avoids the resource-wasting issue by creating a section you have to win/survive (for another example, FF9 has several encounters with a scripted end, but if you die prior to the boss's health/time running out, you WILL get a Game Over)
  • A cutscene follow-up like the Gyarados moment isn't subject to level disparity and highlights the villain's immorality, as Pokemon-sicced-on-humans is a surprisingly rare course of action in this series, primarily used by Ghetsis and the Paradise Protection Protocol and then some questionable candidates (does Mother Beast Lusamine or Lysandre nuking his own base count?)
Pokemon's emphasis on items for utility (as opposed to wider spell/ability lists) and trading for potential high-level access leaves it in a tricky position for crafting "cutscene battle" sequences, but they still like to do RPG structures that would really benefit from being able to do them, especially in recent games where they sort of cheat in a sequence like the SwSh Wolf.
 
Alternatively, just having a battle that's harder than what the player is expected to be able to handle could have a similar effect. Something I like about USUM is how certain fights (mainly, Lusamine and Malie Hau) will let the player lose and the story will advance regardless. Sure, none of these are a life or death situation, but letting the player live with that loss is an effective way to establish them as worthy rivals, way more than a forced loss would (imo)
 
Evil teams in game teams being wack while other media portray them more interestingly has happened before, and imo the worst offender is Team Aqua. The grunts, admins and leader can't help but limit themselves to poochy, zubat and carvanha, that doesn't really say "we want to expand the ocean". Their ultimate plan is to sink everything under the water, yet most of their own pokemon wouldn't SURVIVE that scenario! (zubat can't flap forever, can it?). In the anime most of Team Aqua run Walrein and Crawdaunt, and while it would be insane to fight Walreins over and over, their pre evolved forms aren't out of the question. And Adventures gives even more variety to the admins.

I dunno, Team Magma suffers from the same, but it's more notorious qith Aqua because this is HOENN, it contains a plethora of water pokemon both old and new, and Team Aqua can't even bring itself to use the onmipresent Wingulls and Tentacools. Just what happened there? They can't even excuse it with "those Pokemon aren't in the Regional dex" like DP did...
What makes this so maddening is that I'm pretty sure one of the leaked RS early builds did exactly this! I seem to recall Matt having Huntail (a pokemon no major trainer in the final game uses!) and someone using Pelipper. If I'm right it means Game Freak knew what to do and then nerfed Team Aqua for literally no reason. Whyyyy
 
Genuinely Johto is a significantly more interesting region, Johto by all accounts should be "Kanto 2" but Sinnoh feels more like that to me lol

It's funny you say this because on a side note outside of aesthetics, playing through Diamond again has me notice how scarily closely DP in particular mirrors and mimics Kanto's original game design.

The three starters (saying this even though I adore them) have the same BSTs as their Kanto equivalents at every stage, and Grotle evolves into Torterra at Level 32 while Monferno and Prinplup evolve into Infernape and Empoleon at Level 36, which is the same case with Venusaur relative to Charizard and Blastoise. The first few routes introduce Bidoof and Starly, which are perfect mirrors of Rattata and Pidgey. Starly is the first early route bird to really mimic Pidgey from a game design standpoint as a three-stage bird.

Barry's team tends to mirror Blue's throughout the game too. He starts with the starter advantageous against your own, and his first teammate is Starly, much akin to Blue's Pidgey, and he forms an FWG trio in half his team, and two constants. Blue's team was Starter/Pidgeot/Rhydon/Alakazam/two of Exeggutor/Arcanine/Gyarados depending on the starter, Barry's meanwhile is Starter/Staraptor/Heracross/Snorlax/two of Roserade/Rapidash/Floatzel depending on the starter, which is a parallel.

The level curve and boss fight arrangements are fairly similar too. Roark is a Rock-type first Gym Leader like Brock and he has a Geodude and Onix too, with his ace being Cranidos at...Level 14, like Brock's Onix, which is then followed by an overall similar level curve with Volkner capping out with a Level 50 ace, much like Giovanni in RGB, and the second Gym Leader having a Level 22 really-strong-for-that-point ace too. Even though it's at a different point there's a point where two Gym Leaders have similarly leveled Pokemon as well, in this case Maylene and Crasher Wake (in Kanto it was Koga and Sabrina). The Elite Four and Cynthia are at similar levels to the Kanto League with the same level progression, the difference being that their aces are all one level higher than their Kanto equivalents.

A lot of other similarities pop up as well. Veilstone City is a near perfect mirror of Celadon City, with a Game Corner, a Department Store, and the evil team's secret hideout, and the next major city you visit, Pastoria, follows in Fuschia City's footsteps with its own equivalent Safari Zone and like Kanto's Safari Zone, the Great Marsh has a lot of exclusive Pokemon to the Safari Game, at first just Skorupi, Croagunk, and Carnivine, but then Platinum expands these to Tangela (Tangrowth) and Yanma (Yanmega), much like how Kanto's Safari Zone had Exeggcute, Rhyhorn, and a bunch of single stage Normal-types. Platinum despite changing things up makes the parallel here even more apparent since Maylene and Wake are moved to being the 4th and 5th Gym Leaders.

And the last thing is the obvious DP dex having 151 Pokemon which is basically a mirror of Gen 1, right down to the end of the dex having the major legendaries and 151 being the Mew equivalent (Manaphy). Not to mention the minor legendary trio (Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf) is positioned in a similar way to Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, the three being Level 50 encounters you meet close to the end of the game, and then in the post-game you meet several Level 70 legendaries like Mewtwo in Gen 1, although DP does it threefold with Giratina, Heatran, and Regigigas all in post-game dungeons.

I could go on and on but this is something I definitely noticed. The notion of Sinnoh being "Kanto 2" can be described as quite accurate in another regard when you look at all this, in terms of how the game is designed and structured.
 
It's funny you say this because on a side note outside of aesthetics, playing through Diamond again has me notice how scarily closely DP in particular mirrors and mimics Kanto's original game design.

The three starters (saying this even though I adore them) have the same BSTs as their Kanto equivalents at every stage, and Grotle evolves into Torterra at Level 32 while Monferno and Prinplup evolve into Infernape and Empoleon at Level 36, which is the same case with Venusaur relative to Charizard and Blastoise. The first few routes introduce Bidoof and Starly, which are perfect mirrors of Rattata and Pidgey. Starly is the first early route bird to really mimic Pidgey from a game design standpoint as a three-stage bird.

Barry's team tends to mirror Blue's throughout the game too. He starts with the starter advantageous against your own, and his first teammate is Starly, much akin to Blue's Pidgey, and he forms an FWG trio in half his team, and two constants. Blue's team was Starter/Pidgeot/Rhydon/Alakazam/two of Exeggutor/Arcanine/Gyarados depending on the starter, Barry's meanwhile is Starter/Staraptor/Heracross/Snorlax/two of Roserade/Rapidash/Floatzel depending on the starter, which is a parallel.

The level curve and boss fight arrangements are fairly similar too. Roark is a Rock-type first Gym Leader like Brock and he has a Geodude and Onix too, with his ace being Cranidos at...Level 14, like Brock's Onix, which is then followed by an overall similar level curve with Volkner capping out with a Level 50 ace, much like Giovanni in RGB, and the second Gym Leader having a Level 22 really-strong-for-that-point ace too. Even though it's at a different point there's a point where two Gym Leaders have similarly leveled Pokemon as well, in this case Maylene and Crasher Wake (in Kanto it was Koga and Sabrina). The Elite Four and Cynthia are at similar levels to the Kanto League with the same level progression, the difference being that their aces are all one level higher than their Kanto equivalents.

A lot of other similarities pop up as well. Veilstone City is a near perfect mirror of Celadon City, with a Game Corner, a Department Store, and the evil team's secret hideout, and the next major city you visit, Pastoria, follows in Fuschia City's footsteps with its own equivalent Safari Zone and like Kanto's Safari Zone, the Great Marsh has a lot of exclusive Pokemon to the Safari Game, at first just Skorupi, Croagunk, and Carnivine, but then Platinum expands these to Tangela (Tangrowth) and Yanma (Yanmega), much like how Kanto's Safari Zone had Exeggcute, Rhyhorn, and a bunch of single stage Normal-types. Platinum despite changing things up makes the parallel here even more apparent since Maylene and Wake are moved to being the 4th and 5th Gym Leaders.

And the last thing is the obvious DP dex having 151 Pokemon which is basically a mirror of Gen 1, right down to the end of the dex having the major legendaries and 151 being the Mew equivalent (Manaphy). Not to mention the minor legendary trio (Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf) is positioned in a similar way to Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, the three being Level 50 encounters you meet close to the end of the game, and then in the post-game you meet several Level 70 legendaries like Mewtwo in Gen 1, although DP does it threefold with Giratina, Heatran, and Regigigas all in post-game dungeons.

I could go on and on but this is something I definitely noticed. The notion of Sinnoh being "Kanto 2" can be described as quite accurate in another regard when you look at all this, in terms of how the game is designed and structured.

Professor Rowan: "I'm taking a long research trip to another region!"

His assistant: "ah, are you going somewhere you can experience something totally different to your usual surroundings?"

Professor Rowan: "What? No."
 
Professor Rowan: "I'm taking a long research trip to another region!"

His assistant: "ah, are you going somewhere you can experience something totally different to your usual surroundings?"

Professor Rowan: "What? No."
I like to think that Oak came to Sinnoh and was like "Shit's really the same everywhere, huh?"

If you think about it, Oak has to be the most well-traveled Professor since he's in the Johto and Sinnoh games.
 
Here's a take for you all. Fans of Gen 4 and 5 are the biggest grognards active in the fandom. Genwunners probably outnumber them in total, but by in large they are not as major a force in the fandom as fans of Gen 4 and 5, especially 5.

That may be true for now, but with Pokémon Legends: Z-A on the way, Generation 6, or more specifically, Pokémon XY may just be next in line to be the subject of "look at this hidden gem / actually the best games in the series" discourse. I write this as a strong Generation 6 fan.
 
I don't think hoenns map is particularly good or worthy of any sort of special praise compared to other regions
7.8/10, too much water.

So this isn't just a one liner, I have to somewhat disagree on this. Splitting the world in half into water and land is great to tie it into the whole story of land and sea needing each other for everything to coexist peacefully. However, the water biomes are mostly mid, which detracts from the motif since they are now boring. The exception is routes 132, 133 and 134, with there fast flowing waters making for something interesting.
The land routes are pretty good, with the routes before fallarbar town (the ash routes, if I'm getting the town name wrong) being very atmospheric, and the jungle routes including the weather institute being something I don't think we have seen much besides the grass trial area in sm.
Idk it's leagues and bounds above any other, but is for me the best region map.
 
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