Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[DaddyBuzzwole]

FINALLY A REAL MON
Buzzswole is definitely good. I don’t know much about scarf but a bulky set is great. It gets roost, toxic and I think Defog for utility. While hitting like a semi-truck with cc, drain punch, eq, ice and thunder punch. It’s definitely niche but very good when you need it.

It’s biggest problem by far is it’s rock weakness without heavy duty boots and how it loses to most special attackers.

not defog, unfortunately—that alone would catapult it from "good but niche mon" to "great tusk sidegrade". but buzzwole is a lot more legit than people give it credit for:

defensive sets are fantastic in a non-passive wall role, and combining this with a fire-type and water-type (heatran, moltres, fini, mola, waterpon?, etc) forms an extremely potent three-mon core that can stomach a lot of offensive structures while, depending on the other mons, breaking stall and/or balance at the same time. meanwhile, the scarf set is a fantastic surprise option that can snowball in a terrifying way if the opponent doesn't correctly predict both that it's scarf and the move it's locking itself into—it's extremely difficult to revenge and only gets more dangerous if you sack something. overall, i think people should look a lot more heavily into buzzwole because i am very objective and definitely not biased at all

 

[Spookcooke]

not defog, unfortunately—that alone would catapult it from "good but niche mon" to "great tusk sidegrade"

i hate the fact they didnt give it u-turn, that wouldve definitely raised it up a bit. THEY GIVE EVERYTHING UTURN WHY NOT BUZZWOLE

anyways, i've been enjoying buzzwole as a pretty good gambit, dd pult (make sure its ddance lol), and mini wincon. its bu set walls a ton of physical attackers while setting up its own attack, allowing it to clean end game when special attackers/checks have been chipped or just dead.

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

i hate the fact they didnt give it u-turn, that wouldve definitely raised it up a bit. THEY GIVE EVERYTHING UTURN WHY NOT BUZZWOLE

Why not add in body press and first impression at this point if they gave it u-turn. That would probably make it A- at best with body press and beast boosting defense (first impression is just for the lols)

 

[CappyThePulpy]

Just wanted to ask what is up with the tapu fini hype?
I was looking at the last usage stat and it sits at more usage then koko, shifu, and pelipper. Am I reading this wrong or are people really using fini?

 

[Comett7778]

Just wanted to ask what is up with the tapu fini hype?

I’ve personally rarely use it but, it can be a great set up sweeper with calm mind, acid amour, draining kiss, and stored power. Misty terrain also helps it to stop with status from effecting its team.

It also gets Defog, knock off, toxic, taunt scald, and natures madness to provide utility and spread status. Av is cool as it can take hits well and dish out good damage.

It could also use scarf. Someone with more knowledge can speak on this set as I have never interacted with it as far as I can remember, which in my opinion tells you what you need to know about it. It’s definitely a good mon, just a bit niche.

 

[Moyashi]

Personally I DON'T get the hype around Fini from some people and I've never really liked it. It was mediocre at best during the Tera era even when people were running those fishy double dance sets, but those feel even less good now that they can't Tera to blank SE hits or dodge status after terrain goes down. Toxapex is way too good and common for the set to work, while Gholdengo and Melm are equally big hinrances, and Ting-Lu has no issue phasing it out multiple times.

Other sets also just don't strike me as anything special. Fini is still prone to the same issue plaguing it late last gen, that being a flimsy Dark check due to its hazard vulnerability compounded by its tendency to eat knock off, forcing you to have back up around it and it also just tends to not be very strong on defensive sets. Maybe someone could point me to the secret tech that they think makes it super cool, but I was never impressed by it this gen during Tera and don't exactly feel any better post Tera (and I've seen quite a lot of Fini post Tera). It might be a little better post Tera just because it can't AS easily be made set up fodder, but I dunno.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

In early 2023 I used a Killer Tera steel CM ID Dkiss Stored Fini, but it fell off bc I was ass as a player back then, but I can see the potential. Scarf fini also has utility in revenge kiling and smacking Defensive mons with trick, but status sreader fini???? bro is the defensive equivalent of regigigas, it can't do shit for 5 turns

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Why not add in body press and first impression at this point if they gave it u-turn. That would probably make it A- at best with body press and beast boosting defense (first impression is just for the lols)

my dream additions for buzzwole are u-turn, knock off, defog, and body press. just imagine the utility that comes with being tusk: the prequel but also with toxic and roost and stab pivoting

 

[shinxthe17!]

Personally I DON'T get the hype around Fini from some people and I've never really liked it. It was mediocre at best during the Tera era even when people were running those fishy double dance sets, but those feel even less good now that they can't Tera to blank SE hits or dodge status after terrain goes down. Toxapex is way too good and common for the set to work, while Gholdengo and Melm are equally big hinrances, and Ting-Lu has no issue phasing it out multiple times.

Other sets also just don't strike me as anything special. Fini is still prone to the same issue plaguing it late last gen, that being a flimsy Dark check due to its hazard vulnerability compounded by its tendency to eat knock off, forcing you to have back up around it and it also just tends to not be very strong on defensive sets. Maybe someone could point me to the secret tech that they think makes it super cool, but I was never impressed by it this gen during Tera and don't exactly feel any better post Tera (and I've seen quite a lot of Fini post Tera). It might be a little better post Tera just because it can't AS easily be made set up fodder, but I dunno.

I do think Fini has more of a niche than most mons, but that's probably because I'm clinically insane...


persephone (Tapu Fini) @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 16 SpD / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Nature's Madness
- Surf
- Taunt

I used Fini here as an accompanying piece to my Z-Volc hazstack team, and its main objective was to eradicate possible checks like , and and wear down stuff like and . It's not as impressive now that the sun gang exists but paired with the right team, can still work in a pinch.

B tier at best

 

[jawsome274]

my dream additions for buzzwole are u-turn, knock off, defog, and body press. just imagine the utility that comes with being tusk: the prequel but also with toxic and roost and stab pivoting

i thought past paradox forms were the prequels

 

[Karmazz]

OHKO's aren't everything. Mega Kangaskhan couldn't OHKO anything either, but that doesn't tell the full story, does it? Urshifu SS has like, no good switches that can be easily slotted into a team. Everything not called Buzzwole just gets pulverized by one of its two STABs or Poison Jab. Imagine a Physical Zard Y that isn't quad weak to rocks and ignores Intimidate because why on Earth not, now you have Urshifu. How can you genuinely advocate for this thing, seriously now. It's a lot more than just punching one turn scenarios into the calculator, it can U-Turn out on the switch, or just like, 2HKO you with another attack? Like half the "checks" you mentioned just get pulverized on turn 2. Also, you have yet to prove to me that Scarf isn't viable.

(explaining a wallbreaker to a natdex player) imagine a zard y…

To avoid posting a one-liner shitpost, what moves are people finding success with on spdef moltres? I’ve been using u-turn+defog because it’s a more offensive team and it needs hazard control, but not having toxic/whirlwind for zard and volc feels kinda bad. You straight up just loose to roost volc which sucks.

 

[Comett7778]

To avoid posting a one-liner shitpost, what moves are people finding success with on spdef moltres?

Toxic is my personal favorite. Defog is okay on teams that really need hazard control on more than 1 mon. However having your main form of removal be on a mon that takes 50% from rocks without boots doesn’t feel great to use.

Whirlwind is also cool. I don’t use it too often, but it’s far from a bad move. Also u turn, roost, and flamethrower/mystical fire feel like musts. It’s just the final move the rotates.

 

[TBE]

Toxic is my personal favorite. Defog is okay on teams that really need hazard control on more than 1 mon. However having your main form of removal be on a mon that takes 50% from rocks without boots doesn’t feel great to use.

Whirlwind is also cool. I don’t use it too often, but it’s far from a bad move. Also u turn, roost, and flamethrower/mystical fire feel like musts. It’s just the final move the rotates.

The issue with Defog on Moltres is not really because of its Stealth Rock weakness, though it may play a small part but the main reason is Moltres does not check what it switches into without Toxic, Roar or Brave Bird. You could say it is too passive. Like without any of those moves and if you are only firs move + U-Turn, you significantly weaken your matchup to Yard, Volcarona and other things do not fear you as much since you are reduced to a U-Turn bot. Toxic still helps into stuff like Landorus, opposing Moltres or Zapdos and especially Yard because otherwise it will PP stall your roost if you cannot threaten it back. Brave Bird/Hurricane and Roar can be used to check ID Zamazenta or Substitute Volcarona if your team is weaker into those Pokémon. You are absolutely correct that U-Turn, Roost and fire stab are mandatory, I’m not sure which is better between Flamethrower and Mystical Fire because I haven’t given it a ton of thought but both seem to work fine if you are are to 2hko Gholdengo.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

What're your thoughts on Jirachi? Rn it can Check Lele, go Secret power with Rilla in team, Trick/Encore Kingambit, depending on whether you are scarf or not, and Iron head is the good ol' reliable. It sure hates the anti-contact birds so I suggest running Secret power instead Of Body Slam so you keep the 60% paralysis outside Of terrains and on electric terrain, while 60% sleep on Gterrain is also nice. -1 Spa on misty terrain can prove useful (wall things like Fini setuping) and -1 Spe on Psychic Terrain does Help you Check lele.


Another tech is Soak bellibolt, tho I'm not running It, Yet.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

Another tech is Soak bellibolt, tho I'm not running It, Yet.

Soak Bellibolt when the opponent does the forbidden technique of switching out!

I do want to experiment with Bellibolt again though, I remember building something involving Electric Z Bellibolt with Slack Off back when Tera was still around. Muddy Water is funny coverage and is such a trolly move too. However, Soak just doesn't seem great because the opponent can just leave the field.

 

[Moyashi]

The issue with Defog on Moltres is not really because of its Stealth Rock weakness, though it may play a small part but the main reason is Moltres does not check what it switches into without Toxic, Roar or Brave Bird.

I’d actually say it’s a major qeLness holding it back as a defogger. You don’t want a hazard remover that’s so vulnerable to knock off, because then if Moltres loses its boots, it becomes very easy to exploit even with rockers it beats like non rock move Great Tusk and LandoT. In general that vulnerability tends to make it hard to rely solely on Moltres for removal, forcing a second remover on your team so it doesn’t easily crumble under the circumstances I mentioned (especially because you’re not using Moltres just for Defog but also defensive use and losing boots also means less reliable defensively).

The stuff you mention is also very true, needing the right moves to pressure what it checks.

 

[Comett7778]

forcing a second remover on your team so it doesn’t easily crumble under the circumstances

I feel like using moltres as a defogger leads you down two paths

1. You use heavy duty boots spam to make up for Moltres’s flaws, and at that point why are you even running removal on Moltres ?

2. You have a second more reliable removal mon, and at that point why are you running removal on Moltres?

 

[Karmazz]

I’d actually say it’s a major qeLness holding it back as a defogger. You don’t want a hazard remover that’s so vulnerable to knock off, because then if Moltres loses its boots, it becomes very easy to exploit even with rockers it beats like non rock move Great Tusk and LandoT. In general that vulnerability tends to make it hard to rely solely on Moltres for removal, forcing a second remover on your team so it doesn’t easily crumble under the circumstances I mentioned (especially because you’re not using Moltres just for Defog but also defensive use and losing boots also means less reliable defensively).

The stuff you mention is also very true, needing the right moves to pressure what it checks.

From experience this is definitely true, especially if their rocker has knock. If Molt ever gets knocked the game is basically over if you rely on it for hazard removal. Other rock weak foggers like Zap don’t have this problem to the same extent because 25% is way more manageable than 50%.

 

[slopcat]

What're your thoughts on Jirachi? Rn it can Check Lele, go Secret power with Rilla in team, Trick/Encore Kingambit, depending on whether you are scarf or not, and Iron head is the good ol' reliable. It sure hates the anti-contact birds so I suggest running Secret power instead Of Body Slam so you keep the 60% paralysis outside Of terrains and on electric terrain, while 60% sleep on Gterrain is also nice. -1 Spa on misty terrain can prove useful (wall things like Fini setuping) and -1 Spe on Psychic Terrain does Help you Check lele.


Another tech is Soak bellibolt, tho I'm not running It, Yet.

its pretty decent i think just super fucking hard to slot frankly. it does cool shit but that cool shit will almost never be the reason you won and oftentimes i think it runs headfirst into the issues of its typing. the best dark type of all time is running free in the format and with so much contact punishment and an inability to switch into almost ANYTHING but lele i think you just wind up feeling really bad a lot of the time. i think the main issue with secret power + rillaboom just has you ask the question of why would you not JUST use rillaboom? boom already despises the birds and ferro and now you're basically down 2 mons vs them in order to counter lele even harder. and yes, lele is really really prevalent and strong, but the girl is NOT unstoppable. hslam zenta vs non-choiced or any myriad of things from tran to gambit to molt vs choiced or crown and dengo on the whole already serve as completely adequate counterplay to lele, so i think that niche is just too cornered to fit jirachi in besides for fun.

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

I know this post was made 10 days ago:

All of Palafin, Roaring Moon, and Espathra are more warping than people are letting on and if it were up to me I wouldn't even let their names be mentioned. For me they have to solve more issues than they cause for an overall net positive, otherwise it's just adding an additional constraint to the teambuilder. Alternatively they have to be so obscenely bad post-Tera that they don't seriously impact the health of the tier 99% of the time (re: Regieleki). You couldn't claim this for Deoxys-S, you absolutely can't for Palafin and Roaring Moon, maybe Espathra??

I'm used to reading this from random members, but I’m baffled to read this coming from a Tier Leader. Pokémon aren’t kept in a tier because they provide more good than bad. Pokémon are kept in a tier if they are not overpowered, uncompetitive or centralizing. That’s the bottom line of the Tiering Policy. Otherwise, the council could easily manipulate the system by banning any Pokémon they want and arguing that it shouldn’t be reintroduced into OU because 'it doesn’t bring enough value'. "Does Cloyster provide more good than bad? No? Ban it." It’s just absurd.

 

[TBE]

I know this post was made 10 days ago:

I'm used to reading this from random members, but I’m baffled to read this coming from a Tier Leader. Pokémon aren’t kept in a tier because they provide more good than bad. Pokémon are kept in a tier if they are not overpowered, uncompetitive or centralizing. That’s the bottom line of the Tiering Policy. Otherwise, the council could easily manipulate the system by banning any Pokémon they want and arguing that it shouldn’t be reintroduced into OU because 'it doesn’t bring enough value'. "Does Cloyster provide more good than bad? No? Ban it." It’s just absurd.

Im not going to speak for him but how I thought or view tiering policy now is Pokémon are “tiered” based on the things you said. However, in cases where borderline Pokemon are allowed in a tier, then you should consider if they offer anything of value to the meta. There isn’t many times when a Pokemon is so blatantly broken that it is completely bad for the meta. There are plenty of examples of borderline Pokemon existing in order to hold the tier together. Most tiers have that one centralizing figure that keeps things in their place, like Magearna in SMOU, Jirachi in DPPOU, Zamazenta earlier in this meta or Dragapult arguably right now. When unbanning Pokemon, I understand the caution of not wanting to release Pokemon that aren’t obviously broken but potentially disruptive to the meta. Such as Palafin or Roaring Moon. And I do think it makes a bigger difference when you take action if the Pokemon is already banned. Since they were banned for a good reason in the first place (sometimes lol). So in Cloysters case or Dragapult, even if I am wrong and your assessment of Runo’s argument is correct then it would still be an extreme measure taken. And they have done this with quick banning Ursaluna in the past so consider that it can happen but it’s not how they tier under normal circumstances.

I’m just going to take this opportunity to say free Moon, free Lugia, free Magearna, free Esparthra, free Dry Passing. On a serious note this meta feels perfect to me. Interested in where the future suspects leads us and slightly scared.

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

Im not going to speak for him but how I thought or view tiering policy now is Pokémon are “tiered” based on the things you said. However, in cases where borderline Pokemon are allowed in a tier, then you should consider if they offer anything of value to the meta. There isn’t many times when a Pokemon is so blatantly broken that it is completely bad for the meta. There are plenty of examples of borderline Pokemon existing in order to hold the tier together. Most tiers have that one centralizing figure that keeps things in their place, like Magearna in SMOU, Jirachi in DPPOU, Zamazenta earlier in this meta or Dragapult arguably right now. When unbanning Pokemon, I understand the caution of not wanting to release Pokemon that aren’t obviously broken but potentially disruptive to the meta. Such as Palafin or Roaring Moon. And I do think it makes a bigger difference when you take action if the Pokemon is already banned. Since they were banned for a good reason in the first place (sometimes lol). So in Cloysters case or Dragapult, even if I am wrong and your assessment of Runo’s argument is correct then it would still be an extreme measure taken. And they have done this with quick banning Ursaluna in the past so consider that it can happen but it’s not how they tier under normal circumstances.

I’m just going to take this opportunity to say free Moon, free Lugia, free Magearna, free Esparthra, free Dry Passing. On a serious note this meta feels perfect to me. Interested in where the future suspects leads us and slightly scared.

The National Dex tier just experienced a major shift with the ban on Terastallization, making it the perfect opportunity to discuss the potential reintroduction of new elements to the tier. Over a month ago, Deoxys-Speed was suspect tested, but there were two Pokémon with similar results in the survey: Dragapult (to ban) and Roaring Moon (to unban). There has been overwhelming support for more suspect tests in this thread, particularly for Roaring Moon. I think the least the council could do is conduct a survey to gauge the community's opinions, but the Tier Leader's post comes across as blatantly shutting down the community’s input. I mean, they were willing to suspect Darkrai and Roaring Moon while Terastallization was still in play; Palafin was suspected in OU where Terastallization is allowed; they seem to have forgotten to include Espathra on the unban slate.

Personally, I don’t really care whether Roaring Moon is unbanned or not—I just disagree with the reasoning in that post for shutting down potential suspect tests (whether for banning or unbanning) when the metagame is entirely different from before. To quote their first and only survey post after the Tera ban:

Thank you all for responding! Be on the lookout for future surveys, would like to host these much more often with what is likely going to be some turbulent months filled with tiering.

 

[sealoo]

The National Dex tier just experienced a major shift with the ban on Terastallization, making it the perfect opportunity to discuss the potential reintroduction of new elements to the tier. Over a month ago, Deoxys-Speed was suspect tested, but there were two Pokémon with similar results in the survey: Dragapult (to ban) and Roaring Moon (to unban). There has been overwhelming support for more suspect tests in this thread, particularly for Roaring Moon. I think the least the council could do is conduct a survey to gauge the community's opinions, but the Tier Leader's post comes across as blatantly shutting down the community’s input. I mean, they were willing to suspect Darkrai and Roaring Moon while Terastallization was still in play; Palafin was suspected in OU where Terastallization is allowed; they seem to have forgotten to include Espathra on the unban slate.

Personally, I don’t really care whether Roaring Moon is unbanned or not—I just disagree with the reasoning in that post for shutting down potential suspect tests (whether for banning or unbanning) when the metagame is entirely different from before. To quote their first and only survey post after the Tera ban:

that first survey we posted was explicitly to gauge what happens next, with the results being DeoS sus -> Moon sus -> Pult sus as they were essentially the only 3 mons people want to see action regarding and council seemed to reaffirmed this sentiment, but I can guarantee the next survey will be a few days after the meta settles from the Pult test.

Moon has been intended to be next for a while, but due to this thread, that was recently resolved, it had to be delayed until a verdict was reached there. It should be coming out tonight if all goes right.

I'm also not really sure how Runo's post comes off as shutting anything down? he's just giving his opinion like every other person does in this thread, not officially ruling that something will happen or not

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

I'm also not really sure how Runo's post comes off as shutting anything down? he's just giving his opinion like every other person does in this thread, not officially ruling that something will happen or not

Maybe I overestimated Runo's individual 'power' because of his post/position as a Tier Leader, but I still believe that the tiering justifications for not suspecting a Pokémon are incredibly flawed. It's not like this is a past gen or there is no time to suspect things.

 

[sealoo]

Yeah its fair to disagree with the sentiment, I think its an interesting argument between if a mon has to cross the hurdles of both contributing something positive AND being balanced to get unbanned successfully, or just be balanced. It makes it a bit of a challenge to unban things that aren't resoundingly bad, and some people overall just dont want much change to the meta.

Do keep in mind that Runo isn't even on council for OU which is who decides the suspects though, he isnt a dictator (yet )