Project OM Mashup Megathread

:sv/porygon-z::sv/weezing-galar:

Porygon-Z and Neutralizing Gas are banned from PokeBH!
aerobee
ANinjaDude
Clas
NoobSpammer
Lysion
rightclicker
The Hisui Region
Result (Y-N-A)
Porygon-Z​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
ABS​
BAN​
6-0-1 BAN​
Neutralizing Gas​
BAN​
ABS​
DNB​
BAN​
ABS​
BAN​
DNB​
3-2-2 BAN​

:porygon-z:
Thanks to four stackable Ability boosts (Adaptability, Download, Analytic, and Porygon's Ability of choice) and a drawback-less 140BP STAB, Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Porygon-Z could OHKO neutral Arceus formes, nearly OHKO Ice Scales Ho-Oh/Scales AV Toxapex, OHKO Eviolite Imposter with minimal SpD de-EVing, and 2HKO any non-Scales/Tyranitar resists. Foes that could withstand Boomburst would fall victim to coverage (Astral Barrage/Moongeist Beam for Ghosts, Secret Sword/Blue Flare/Armor Cannon for Steels).

:weezing-galar:
Even when restricted Neutralizing Gas could be selected as the custom Ability on native users, meaning native Neutralizing Gas users (mainly Weezing-G) could repeatedly switch in with said Ability (as well as other native Abilities) active. Ability Shield also didn’t protect holders’Abilities from negation via Neutralizing Gas due to Pokebilities’ mechanics. Through negation of opposing passive damage sponge Abilities like Regenerator, Magic Guard, Imposter, and Poison Heal, Neutralizing Gas Knock Off + Salt Cure users could make consistent progress against basically anything that couldn’t offensively threaten it, outlasting the passive defensive cores seen on almost every team.
 
Posting this PokeBH team I made like an hour ago:

:sv/cinderace: :sv/charizard-mega-y: :sv/swalot: :sv/lucario-mega: :sv/palkia-origin: :sv/toxapex:

:cinderace: To prove I am a strong trainer and not just a guy who cheesed his way to round 7 in CCC, I had to use the fully evolved form of my favourite. Band with Adaptability and Libero, along with strong coverage moves, hit very hard. I already made a post with lots of calcs.

:charizard-mega-y: I decided to use ZardY to turn Cinderace's V-creates nuclear. Magic Guard is basically the only usable ability on this guy unless you want it to be the nuke, and Life Orb is a nice drawbackless 30% boost to its attacks. I chose Torch Song as my fire STAB as it doesn't have 8 PP and helps it 1v1 lots of stuff. Knock Off is mainly for removing Heavy-Duty Boots and Assault Vests and is just a good move in general. Spikes can punish opposing momentum and has good synergy with Knock Off, and Strength Sap is Strength Sap.

:swalot: I don't think anyone has ever selected this thing in the teambuilder for anything, and I don't know why I added this to the team, but it's funny.

:lucario-mega: One of the best sweepers in the tier. I went with Swords Dance over Victory Dance to OHKO Imposter if you're a gamer and win the speed tie, and so if you're not a gamer Cinderace can outspeed Imposter. Protective Pads is for all those stupid Rocky Helmets and Burning Banthismovepleasewarks, and Strength Sap is Strength Sap.

:palkia-origin: The improof for the 3 offensive mons above. Thunder Cage and Draco Plate Judgement let it improof itself, and Hydro Steam is so I have a water move I can click if sun is up. Strength Sap is Strength Sap.

:toxapex: Is pex. Acts as another improof for ZardY. I changed Mortal Spin to Rapid Spin after the first battle I'm putting below.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2271616084-13g7dko43msf70x79tpxo2cqfjp2dkwpw Vs aerobee. In this battle Zard had Weather Ball, but I change it because I realised it's mid. I completely forgot about Merciless on Toxapex, so that's why I gave it Rapid Spin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2271639951-c31nsghjj25eqt93jyo4snsz6imsqpopw?p2 Vs ANinjaDude. Cinderace didn't even do anything in this battle, and Swalot actually put in work.
 
Posting this PokeBH team I made like an hour ago:

:sv/cinderace: :sv/charizard-mega-y: :sv/swalot: :sv/lucario-mega: :sv/palkia-origin: :sv/toxapex:

:cinderace: To prove I am a strong trainer and not just a guy who cheesed his way to round 7 in CCC, I had to use the fully evolved form of my favourite. Band with Adaptability and Libero, along with strong coverage moves, hit very hard. I already made a post with lots of calcs.

:charizard-mega-y: I decided to use ZardY to turn Cinderace's V-creates nuclear. Magic Guard is basically the only usable ability on this guy unless you want it to be the nuke, and Life Orb is a nice drawbackless 30% boost to its attacks. I chose Torch Song as my fire STAB as it doesn't have 8 PP and helps it 1v1 lots of stuff. Knock Off is mainly for removing Heavy-Duty Boots and Assault Vests and is just a good move in general. Spikes can punish opposing momentum and has good synergy with Knock Off, and Strength Sap is Strength Sap.

:swalot: I don't think anyone has ever selected this thing in the teambuilder for anything, and I don't know why I added this to the team, but it's funny.

:lucario-mega: One of the best sweepers in the tier. I went with Swords Dance over Victory Dance to OHKO Imposter if you're a gamer and win the speed tie, and so if you're not a gamer Cinderace can outspeed Imposter. Protective Pads is for all those stupid Rocky Helmets and Burning Banthismovepleasewarks, and Strength Sap is Strength Sap.

:palkia-origin: The improof for the 3 offensive mons above. Thunder Cage and Draco Plate Judgement let it improof itself, and Hydro Steam is so I have a water move I can click if sun is up. Strength Sap is Strength Sap.

:toxapex: Is pex. Acts as another improof for ZardY. I changed Mortal Spin to Rapid Spin after the first battle I'm putting below.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2271616084-13g7dko43msf70x79tpxo2cqfjp2dkwpw Vs aerobee. In this battle Zard had Weather Ball, but I change it because I realised it's mid. I completely forgot about Merciless on Toxapex, so that's why I gave it Rapid Spin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2271639951-c31nsghjj25eqt93jyo4snsz6imsqpopw?p2 Vs ANinjaDude. Cinderace didn't even do anything in this battle, and Swalot actually put in work.
Ok, so the Swalot set is funny, though I'd just like to add that Ability Shield is a very common item in this meta. It thus prevents Swalot from Skill Swapping, and now its kinda useless. It's a good sap blocker or sap revenger rather, but just use MBounce. Swalot also might be better as a setup sweeper.
 
Yay I'm finally on a council
I've only played TSPokeAAA like once but here are some things I have to say:
:pecharunt: can probably be freed because it's OU now and it's legal in regular PokeAAA
:ninetales-alola: might be broken now that it's NU and already gets a built in defence and evasion boost
:torkoal: is another weather setter that just dropped to NU, not sure if it will be broken though
:kyurem-black: and :kyurem-white: aren't supposed to be banned but are in the code (doing +Kyurem-Black, +Kyurem-White should fix it)
 
A couple PokeBH teams before tiering as a result of our survey:

:sv/zekrom::sv/steelix-mega::sv/toxapex::sv/altaria-mega::sv/hydrapple::sv/lopunny-mega:

Solid team that you can outplay basically everything with. (Unfortunately) Regenerator + FurScales is legal so one can run Regenspam without much repercussion, and Zekrom/Lopunny are surprisingly potent complements to Regenspam since opposing Imposter can provide entry points for both mons and both are tough to consistently wall (Zekrom requires specific mons or Burn via Bulwark/Beak Blast, while Lopunny can flinch through stuff with Stench PopBomb). A bit weak to Band SoR Lucario/physical Ice moves/Garchomp but, again, nothing you can't outplay.

:zekrom:: Actually really hard to wall without Steelix, since all the answers (Mega Altaria, Ting-Lu, to an extent Ferrothorn) rely on Zekrom running Glaive Rush to complement Bolt Strike so they can survive a hit and retaliate. Glacial Lance OHKOes Altaria and Gliscor unboosted, KOes Ting-Lu at +1, occasionally grants Zekrom safe attacks against Bulwark users, and also KOes everything you'd want Glaive Rush hitting. Most games that aren't dragged out end with a Zekrom sweep. Should probably be banned.

:steelix-mega:: There aren't many options to Improof Zekrom/Lopunny, but luckily Steelix exists and isn't actually that bad since you underspeed most slow pivots and annoy some of the most common defensive mons (Toxapex, Altaria, Steels, Imposter in general if you count that, Ho-Oh if you're already in and healthy). You can also randomly sponge SE hits to make foes you theoretically cannot reliably answer generally less of a nuisance.

:toxapex:: AV Scales Toxapex blanket checks every special mon bar sufficiently strong foes with STAB SE moves/Moongeist and insanely strong Mold Breaker stuff. Bog standard set.

:altaria-mega:: Also standard, and a decently hard STAB-only Zekrom check. I haven't clicked Nuzzle very much but the move restricts opposing safe plays a decent amount, and Steelix completely Improofs which is nice. PixiSpin/Boomburst are always good.

:hydrapple:: An actually good AShield user since you can't have your item removed. Matcha Gotcha is kinda whatever but the random burns (that can also potentially bypass Magic Bounce) are occasionally useful and you dissuade opposing Imposter from trying to sit on you for eternity. Topsy (can be Haze) because you still need setup counterplay beyond raw bulk, while Spikes is theoretically useful though most teams remove too easily to really make use of them. You can also run Strength Sap on Regenerator users without much consequence since you have alternative means of regaining health when against Sapblockers.

:lopunny-mega:: Kinda janky set, but if you don't mind tight playing it gets the job done. King's Rock/Razor Fang are actually banned so you have to use Stench, but that's actually not as bad as it might sound. PopBomb after Coil has a ~65% chance to flinch once (and a ~42% chance to flinch twice), meaning you can sometimes just BS your way through on-paper checks, especially without immunities. Of course, a weighted coinflip is still unreliable for the Lopunny user, but the 65% flinch chance means this exchange is often in the user's favor. Knock serves two purposes: to remove opposing Helmets for the purposes of breaking/sweeping, and removing items in general (especially Ability Shield for Zekrom) whenever Lopunny gets the opportunity to do so (which is decently often given Regenspam enabling the longer games that Leftovers tends to be more impactful in). Encore lets you come in on bulky setup users and gain a couple turns' worth of Leftovers recovery at worst (and potentially safely set up Coil); importantly, Imposter can't directly heal if they happen to hardswap in, over other potential options like Strength Sap. Improofed by Steelix/Hydrapple, though PopBomb flinches against Steelix might mean you encounter (favorable) mindgames with Bulwark/Sap if you're chipped enough.


________________________________________________________________________________

Other teams:

:iron-treads::flutter-mane::roaring-moon::clodsire::toxapex::lucario-mega:

Stole the idea from ANinjaDude. Booster Energy boosts actually aren't copied by Imposter, meaning Booster Speed makes you self-Improof as long as you OHKO opposing Imposter. Treads has very good STABs despite the underwhelming stats (and de-EVing necessary for Imposter), Flutter is Flutter (and with Booster can sometimes outspeed Weather mons), and Roaring Moon hits acceptably hard with STAB and Sunsteel, the latter of which OHKOes Fairyceus. Lucario provides speed control while also serving as a potential entry point for Treads. Gimmicky as fuck on paper but the couple times I've brought this it's worked.

:gumshoos::sableye-mega::lucario-mega::toxapex::ho-oh::ting-lu:

252+ Atk Choice Band Stakeout Tera Normal Gumshoos Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Arceus: 460-560 (103.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You deal the same damage to non-FC if they stay in as well, so if you get Gumshoos in on a slower neutral non-Bulwark/FC foe chances are you're forcing a 5050 (opponent has a Ghost/healthy FC resist) or you're grabbing a KO. Actually strong priority is also highly valuable. Sableye/Toxapex Improof just hard enough that you can reliably send Gumshoos in if the former's healthy. MG Knock Lucario brings Helmet users (Toxapex/MG Ho-Oh) in and removes items. DesoLand Ho-Oh + Ting-Lu have amazing synergy, and the former screws weather over pretty effectively. Just try to set hazards early against BoR Charizard Y/DesoLand Chi-Yu.
 
:sv/Flutter Mane::sv/Gouging Fire::sv/Iron Boulder::sv/Iron Bundle::sv/Iron Jugulis::sv/Iron Leaves::sv/Iron Moth::sv/Iron Valiant::sv/Iron Treads::sv/Iron Valiant::sv/Raging Bolt::sv/Roaring Moon::sv/Sandy Shocks:
click on pokemon for importables
Have you ever sat down and thought, "Gee, I wish my Simple pokemon didn't have to worry about improofing," or "I wish I had some extra speed control on this team?" Well you're in luck, because Today I'll be breaking down exactly how to solve both of those issues with two simple words.

:Roaring Moon::Booster Energy:Booster Energy:Booster Energy: :Iron Valiant:
Why use Booster Energy? It, when combined with Protosynthesis or Quark Drive, allows your pokemon to both beat their own Imposter with the correct EVing, and also give you some emergency speed control for their sweeper at +1, or maybe even 2. Now, you may be wondering, what Booster Energy pokemon are there that you could possibly use in such a high-powered meta like PokeBH? Well, dear citizen reading this post on www.smogon.com/forums/threads/om-mashup-megathread.3711916, I'm glad you asked this, for I have compiled a list of pokemon that can use this, and even created sets and EVed them to beat their own Imposter, for your viewing and usage enjoyment.

:sv/Flutter Mane:

First off, we have Flutter Mane, a pokemon whose high Special Attack and Speed comboes with its threatening STAB combo of Ghost/Fairy to create a lethal offensive pokemon, and now, it can't even be stopped by Imposter. The combination of Astral Barrage and Moonblast 2HKOs almost the entire tier, with Pain Split making it incredibly hard for pink blobs like:Audino-Mega, Chansey, or Blissey to stop you. The provided spread always OHKOs Eviolite Imposter from full after a Nasty Plot with Astral Barrage, Moongeist Beam can't quite OHKO Imposter, so I would advise against its use.

:sv/Gouging Fire:

Next, we have the Big Gouger, who I think might be getting slept on a little because of Reshiram. Reshiram might be the better sun pick, but this Gouging Fire set is incredibly dangerous after just a single Swords Dance. Glaive Rush is a great STAB, and while normally the Fire STAB of choice is V-Create, Simple and Booster Energy both anti-synergize with it, so instead I've opted for Pyro Ball. Sunsteel Strike threatens any Fairies or FC pokemon that would try to slow you down, and because of your natural Fire typing, you're even able to spam contact moves like Sunsteel Strike or Glaive Rush without being scared of Bulwark.

:sv/Iron Boulder:

Boulder has a rather unique set of traits that I think makes it a good user of Simple+Booster Energy. It's very fast, it has SE STAB on Toxapex and Ho-Oh, and it has STAB that punishes Bulwark usage heavily. You could theoretically swap out Headlong Rush for Precipice Blades to counter Bulwark Steels if you feel lucky, or Gigaton Hammer to allow you to run a lot more EVs in Defense(instead of having to use 0 EV/19 IV Hasty, you could use 96 EV/31 IV Jolly), but then Imposters could switch out on the Gigaton, sack a different pokemon to it, and kill you with Gigaton in return, so I woudn't personally recommend it. I wouldn't recommend using Sunsteel Strike over Headlong Rush either, as it cannot quite OHKO Imposter.

:sv/Iron Bundle:

Bundle sports probably the most unique spread I've made for any of these pokemon, but it hits a few critical benchmarks. Modest 212 Special Attack is stronger than Timid 252 on Iron Bundle, while also still allowing for Booster Energy to boost Speed. This increased Special Attack also allows you to run more Special Defense EVs (176 vs 124) while still always OHKOing Imposter with Electro Drift. Freeze-Dry and Ice Beam are both very solid Ice STABs for Bundle, and Steam Eruption is a good secondary STAB.

:sv/Iron Jugulis:

Not too much to say about this one, it's a fast Booster mon weak to Electro Drift, so Improofing is pretty easy, don't know if I'd use it vs any of the Scales mons in the meta, but I think it has a chance to be able to do some interesting things.

:sv/Iron Leaves:

Another fairly simple set, STAB Flower Trick hits like a truck, Attack Order makes Improofing simple, Triple Arrows slam Steels. You could very easily swap out Flower Trick for a Psychic STAB like Psychic Fangs or Psyblade if you need to hit Toxapex.

:sv/Iron Moth:

This is the first of two pokemon that I've cooked two different sets for, but unlike the one coming up, both of the two sets are fairly similar. Malignant Chain+Fire STAB(can be Torch Song, Armor Cannon, Blue Flare, etc)+Improofing Move+NPlot. The difference comes primarily in the EVs necessary for the two different Improofing Moves(Psystrike and Earth Power). The other main difference is that Psystrike is slightly better into blobs like Blissey/Chansey, and Earth Power is better into Mega Tyranitar, so just pick whichever suits your team best.

:sv/Iron Treads:

Another good user of Simple+Booster Energy, Iron Treads has STAB SE on itself for easy Improofing, and also has STAB Sunsteel Strike, making it a super threatening pokemon, especially as the pokemon you'd ordinarily use for checking Ground/Steel moves in PokeBH, Ho-Oh, gets eviscerated by +4 Mighty Cleave.

:sv/Iron Valiant:

The second pokemon that I've cooked up two sets for, and probably the most flexible pokemon on this list, Iron Valiant is in a very unique position, where as long as it runs Fairy STAB for self-proofing, it can really use whatever two coverage moves it wants. Glacial Lance for Gliscor, Electro Drift for Ho-Oh/Toxapex, Precipice Blades for Mega Steelix, you get the idea. It can easily pick apart just about any team with the right coverage moves. Very scary pokemon, don't sleep on this.

:sv/Raging Bolt:

A pokemon that I'm not as sure about, Raging Bolt feels like just worse Miraidon/Ampharos-Mega, but it might be able to leverage its 409 speed tier after Booster and Simple Nasty Plot to do something. Fairly basic moveset, could probably be experimented with more.

:sv/Roaring Moon:

Another Dragon, this time a bit faster and stronger than Gouging, but a lot worse into Fairies, Roaring Moon can threaten to seriously mess with most teams with Glaive Rush/Knock Off/Sunsteel Strike, and can also switch out Knock Off for Wicked Blow if you want to sacrifice utility for raw damage output. Another scary pokemon, does feel a little awkward to set up at the moment, and hates Bulwark 50/50s, but definitely keep an eye on this mon.

:sv/Sandy Shocks:

A pokemon I haven't experimented with much, inspired by Slothy0wl's usage of it on a rain team a couple weeks back, Sandy Shocks is a fairly simple pokemon for my purposes. Fast, STAB Electro Drift, SE STAB on itself for easy Improofing, and then a flex slot to do whatever it wants with. Could do with some tinkering, and feels a little frail, but isn't a bad pokemon by any means.
 
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:sv/Flutter Mane::sv/Gouging Fire::sv/Iron Boulder::sv/Iron Bundle::sv/Iron Jugulis::sv/Iron Leaves::sv/Iron Moth::sv/Iron Valiant::sv/Iron Treads::sv/Iron Valiant::sv/Raging Bolt::sv/Roaring Moon::sv/Sandy Shocks:
click on pokemon for importables
Have you ever sat down and thought, "Gee, I wish my Simple pokemon didn't have to worry about improofing," or "I wish I had some extra speed control on this team?" Well you're in luck, because Today I'll be breaking down exactly how to solve both of those issues with two simple words.

:Roaring Moon::Booster Energy:Booster Energy:Booster Energy: :Iron Valiant:
Why use Booster Energy? It, when combined with Protosynthesis or Quark Drive, allows your pokemon to both beat their own Imposter with the correct EVing, and also give you some emergency speed control for their sweeper at +1, or maybe even 2. Now, you may be wondering, what Booster Energy pokemon are there that you could possibly use in such a high-powered meta like PokeBH? Well, dear citizen reading this post on www.smogon.com/forums/threads/om-mashup-megathread.3711916, I'm glad you asked this, for I have compiled a list of pokemon that can use this, and even created sets and EVed them to beat their own Imposter, for your viewing and usage enjoyment.

:sv/Flutter Mane:

First off, we have Flutter Mane, a pokemon whose high Special Attack and Speed comboes with its threatening STAB combo of Ghost/Fairy to create a lethal offensive pokemon, and now, it can't even be stopped by Imposter. The combination of Astral Barrage and Moonblast 2HKOs almost the entire tier, with Pain Split making it incredibly hard for pink blobs like:Audino-Mega, Chansey, or Blissey to stop you. The provided spread always OHKOs Eviolite Imposter from full after a Nasty Plot with Astral Barrage, Moongeist Beam can't quite OHKO Imposter, so I would advise against its use.

:sv/Gouging Fire:

Next, we have the Big Gouger, who I think might be getting slept on a little because of Reshiram. Reshiram might be the better sun pick, but this Gouging Fire set is incredibly dangerous after just a single Swords Dance. Glaive Rush is a great STAB, and while normally the Fire STAB of choice is V-Create, Simple and Booster Energy both anti-synergize with it, so instead I've opted for Pyro Ball. Sunsteel Strike threatens any Fairies or FC pokemon that would try to slow you down, and because of your natural Fire typing, you're even able to spam contact moves like Sunsteel Strike or Glaive Rush without being scared of Bulwark.

:sv/Iron Boulder:

Boulder has a rather unique set of traits that I think makes it a good user of Simple+Booster Energy. It's very fast, it has SE STAB on Toxapex and Ho-Oh, and it has STAB that punishes Bulwark usage heavily. You could theoretically swap out Headlong Rush for Precipice Blades to counter Bulwark Steels if you feel lucky, or Gigaton Hammer to allow you to run a lot more EVs in Defense(instead of having to use 0 EV/19 IV Hasty, you could use 96 EV/31 IV Jolly), but then Imposters could switch out on the Gigaton, sack a different pokemon to it, and kill you with Gigaton in return, so I woudn't personally recommend it. I wouldn't recommend using Sunsteel Strike over Headlong Rush either, as it cannot quite OHKO Imposter.

:sv/Iron Bundle:

Bundle sports probably the most unique spread I've made for any of these pokemon, but it hits a few critical benchmarks. Modest 212 Special Attack is stronger than Timid 252 on Iron Bundle, while also still allowing for Booster Energy to boost Speed. This increased Special Attack also allows you to run more Special Defense EVs (176 vs 124) while still always OHKOing Imposter with Electro Drift. Freeze-Dry and Ice Beam are both very solid Ice STABs for Bundle, and Steam Eruption is a good secondary STAB.

:sv/Iron Jugulis:

Not too much to say about this one, it's a fast Booster mon weak to Electro Drift, so Improofing is pretty easy, don't know if I'd use it vs any of the Scales mons in the meta, but I think it has a chance to be able to do some interesting things.

:sv/Iron Leaves:

Another fairly simple set, STAB Flower Trick hits like a truck, Attack Order makes Improofing simple, Triple Arrows slam Steels. You could very easily swap out Flower Trick for a Psychic STAB like Psychic Fangs or Psyblade if you need to hit Toxapex.

:sv/Iron Moth:

This is the first of two pokemon that I've cooked two different sets for, but unlike the one coming up, both of the two sets are fairly similar. Malignant Chain+Fire STAB(can be Torch Song, Armor Cannon, Blue Flare, etc)+Improofing Move+NPlot. The difference comes primarily in the EVs necessary for the two different Improofing Moves(Psystrike and Earth Power). The other main difference is that Psystrike is slightly better into blobs like Blissey/Chansey, and Earth Power is better into Mega Tyranitar, so just pick whichever suits your team best.

:sv/Iron Treads:

Another good user of Simple+Booster Energy, Iron Treads has STAB SE on itself for easy Improofing, and also has STAB Sunsteel Strike, making it a super threatening pokemon, especially as the pokemon you'd ordinarily use for checking Ground/Steel moves in PokeBH, Ho-Oh, gets eviscerated by +4 Mighty Cleave.

:sv/Iron Valiant:

The second pokemon that I've cooked up two sets for, and probably the most flexible pokemon on this list, Iron Valiant is in a very unique position, where as long as it runs Fairy STAB for self-proofing, it can really use whatever two coverage moves it wants. Glacial Lance for Gliscor, Electro Drift for Ho-Oh/Toxapex, Precipice Blades for Mega Steelix, you get the idea. It can easily pick apart just about any team with the right coverage moves. Very scary pokemon, don't sleep on this.

:sv/Raging Bolt:

A pokemon that I'm not as sure about, Raging Bolt feels like just worse Miraidon/Ampharos-Mega, but it might be able to leverage its 409 speed tier after Booster and Simple Nasty Plot to do something. Fairly basic moveset, could probably be experimented with more.

:sv/Roaring Moon:

Another Dragon, this time a bit faster and stronger than Gouging, but a lot worse into Fairies, Roaring Moon can threaten to seriously mess with most teams with Glaive Rush/Knock Off/Sunsteel Strike, and can also switch out Knock Off for Wicked Blow if you want to sacrifice utility for raw damage output. Another scary pokemon, does feel a little awkward to set up at the moment, and hates Bulwark 50/50s, but definitely keep an eye on this mon.

:sv/Sandy Shocks:

A pokemon I haven't experimented with much, inspired by Slothy0wl's usage of it on a rain team a couple weeks back, Sandy Shocks is a fairly simple pokemon for my purposes. Fast, STAB Electro Drift, SE STAB on itself for easy Improofing, and then a flex slot to do whatever it wants with. Could do with some tinkering, and feels a little frail, but isn't a bad pokemon by any means.
I also can confirm these are real, yesterday I got 6-0d by a lead SD iVal with my other Cinderace team
 
STAAABmons Tiering!


STAAABmons tiering was stagnant since before DLC2, leaving it in a perpetually unbalanced state. Therefore, we've attempted to generally lower the power level via banning clearly overpowered Pokemon, restricting potentially problematic moves, and banning a few Abilities. This is meant to serve as a starting point for future tiering, and the metagame might not necessarily be fully balanced even after the below changes. These changes also maybe revisited in the future.

New bans/restricts:
  • :darkrai:Darkrai
  • :gouging-fire:Gouging Fire
  • :ho-oh:Ho-Oh
  • :keldeo:Keldeo
  • :kyurem:Kyurem
  • :latios:Latios
  • :lugia:Lugia
  • :lunala:Lunala
  • :magearna:Magearna
  • :manaphy:Manaphy
  • :necrozma-dawn-wings:Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
  • :necrozma-dusk-mane:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
  • :raging-bolt:Raging Bolt
  • :regigigas:Regigigas
  • :reshiram:Reshiram
  • :shaymin-sky:Shaymin-Sky
  • :solgaleo:Solgaleo
  • :volcarona:Volcarona
  • :zekrom:Zekrom
  • Boomburst
  • Ceaseless Edge
  • Dragon Energy
  • Electro Shot
  • Eruption
  • Final Gambit
  • Glacial Lance
  • Jet Punch
  • Lumina Crash
  • Quiver Dance
  • Population Bomb
  • Rising Voltage
  • Surging Strikes
  • Tail Glow
  • Take Heart
  • Triple Arrows
  • Water Shuriken
  • Water Spout
  • Wicked Torque
  • Hadron Engine
  • Toxic Debris
  • Triage

Unbans:
  • Chi-Yu
  • Gengar
  • Gholdengo
  • Great Tusk
  • Hariyama
  • Iron Hands
  • Zoroark-Hisui
 
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PokeBH Survey Results (+ Tiering!)

Huge thanks to everyone who participated to PokeBH's first ever tiering survey! Here are the results:

How much do you enjoy PokeBH currently?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.31.09 PM.png


Average: 7.29/10

This is pretty high! We're glad people are enjoying the metagame and are committed to keeping it fun.


How competitive do you think PokeBH is currently?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.31.46 PM.png


Average: 7.57/10

Even higher! It helps that most of the potentially banworthy game elements are simply overpowered, rather than uncompetitive matchup fishes, and that currently major constraints on SV BH, like 8 PP recovery and the potency of passive damage, are overall less pronounced in PokeBH.


Is Regenerator + FurScales banworthy?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.32.16 PM.png


Close to a 50-50 split, with a slight bias in favor of tiering action. While helping to keep other problematic elements in check, Regenerator + FurScales is arguably overcentralizing and a ban would likely increase the diversity of viable team structures.

Is Gliscor banworthy?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.32.28 PM.png


Pretty strong lean towards no action. In addition to Gliscor's sets (outside of perhaps VD) being clearly manageable, a high-tier Ground/Flying Poison Heal user has a positive metagame impact in discouraging passive teambuilding cores.

Is Ho-Oh (no Regen + FurScales ban) banworthy?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.32.37 PM.png


This is honestly much more pro-Ban than I personally expected, and we only included it for if people largely opposed Regenerator + FurScales and Toxapex bans but believed Ho-Oh to be banworthy. As such, we didn't vote on it this slate.

Is Lucario-Mega banworthy?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.32.46 PM.png


A 50-50 with relatively high uncertainty. While normally tiering action wouldn't be pursued in this situation, general sentiment among the playerbase seemed to move towards favoring a ban so we voted on Lucario.

Is Toxapex (no Regen + FurScales ban) banworthy?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.32.54 PM.png


A rather surprising result to me. Toxapex would've escaped a council vote regardless of whether Regenerator + FurScales was voted on or not.

Is Burning Bulwark banworthy?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.33.13 PM.png


Another honestly surprising result. The relative prevalence of non-AV Regenerator users and contact move attackers makes Burning Bulwark more potent than in SV BH, making it all the more contentious.

Is Victory Dance banworthy?

Screenshot 2025-01-12 at 9.33.23 PM.png


Another 50-50. Unlike in SV BH, some healthy Victory Dance users (Gliscor, Ho-Oh, Kingambit) are innately favored against healthy Strength Sap users, making such sets generally more difficult to handle.

Any other potentially banworthy elements?

Regenerator > 1/2 – 2
Simple – 1
Stench – 1

A Regenerator clause and Simple weren't voted on because the council believed a FurScales ban to be favorable to artificial constraints to building and because no council member was yet convinced that Simple was an issue.

________________________________________________

A vote was held on the more problematic elements listed in the survey (save for Ho-Oh), with the additions of Zekrom and restricting Stench due to the latter two's contentiousness. The results are below:

:sv/toxapex::sv/lucario-mega::sv/zekrom::sv/gouging-fire::sv/trubbish:

Regenerator + FurScales, Lucario-Mega, Zekrom, and Burning Bulwark are banned from PokeBH! Stench is now restricted!
aerobee
ANinjaDude
Clas
NoobSpammer
Lysion
rightclicker
The Hisui Region
Result (Y-N-A)
Regen + FurScales​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
DNB​
BAN​
ABS​
BAN​
6-1-0 BAN​
Lucario-Mega​
BAN​
ABS​
DNB​
DNB​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
4-2-1 BAN​
Zekrom​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
ABS​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
6-0-1 BAN​
Burning Bulwark​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
DNB​
BAN​
BAN​
DNB​
5-2-0 BAN​
Victory Dance​
BAN​
ABS​
DNB​
DNB​
DNB​
DNB​
ABS​
1-4-2 DNB​
Restrict Stench​
YES​
YES​
YES​
YES​
YES​
YES​
YES​
7-0-0 RESTRICT​

:toxapex::ho-oh::hydrapple:
Running Fur Coat/Ice Scales on a native Regenerator user allowed most teams to run functional defensive cores relying on said Pokemon, making wearing them down via passive damage near impossible. This centralized the metagame around Regenspam, breakers that could threaten the most prevalent native Regenerator users, and moves easily usable on Regenerator users that otherwise wouldn't be as spammable, such as Salt Cure and protection moves. We didn't vote on Ho-Oh specifically because of Regen + FurScales' current metagame impact; if deemed necessary we will take action on Ho-Oh in the future.

:lucario-mega:
Lucario was a ridiculously strong breaker with only Fur Coat users resisting Sunsteel Strike/Gigaton Hammer (or well-played Ability Shield Hydrapple) existing as reliable defensive counterplay. Kartana was arguably broken by the same elements so if any additional Pokemon (particularly Metagross/Perrserker) are considered broken in the future we may consider banning Sunsteel/Gigaton.

:zekrom:
Setup Zekrom had very little defensive counterplay, with most neutral walls getting OHKOed at +1 by LO Sword of Ruin/Adaptability sets and most other potential answers losing to Glacial Lance (over Glaive Rush). Imposter could soft-check if at full and Eviolite intact but that could not be considered reliable counterplay, especially with an easily Improof in Mega Steelix existing. Ability Shield users were also prone to being made impotent via item removal.

:gouging-fire:
Burning Bulwark promoted 50-50s between the Bulwark user and contact move attackers made effectively insignificant by Burns, making it much more unhealthy than other Protect move variants. Already controversial in base BH, Bulwark could be more easily ran thanks to the relative abundance of non-AV Regenerator users and contact move attackers.

:trubbish:
Stench was mainly used with Population Bomb, as King's Rock/Razor Fang were already banned and the move had a 65% chance to flinch after an accuracy boost. While such sets were either threatened by opposing Rocky Helmet users or difficult to Imposter-proof, this combination nevertheless allowed users to cheese past on-paper counterplay with a couple of convenient flinches and opposing Helmets could be removed via Knock Off.
 
A PokeBH Team that I really like:
:sm/arceus-fairy: :sm/blissey: :sv/kingambit: :sm/ho-oh: :sm/gliscor: :ss/eternatus:
Explanations to what each member does~
Arceus-Fairy :arceus-fairy:
A great mon in regular BH, and I decided to go with the Judgement set because I felt like being immune to Knock was better than running a weaker move with more PP and having Lefties recovery. Not much to say, it selfproofs quite well by stalling out Imposter :chansey: and trapping with Thunder Cage.

Blissey :blissey:
Why Blissey? :blissey: I do credit The Hisui Region for this as they used to use Shed Shell Imp. I also recently have gotten into Gen 7 PH so I felt like Shed Shell was a pretty good Imposter item. It just so happened aerobee sent out a post advertising about Spirit Shackle Ho-Oh :ho-oh:, so I felt like it could work as a good cteam against those types of sets.

Kingambit :kingambit:
A really underlooked mon in PokeBH, Supreme Underlord is no joke, and it can sweep. V Dance, Spirit Shackle to trap, and Pressure is really nice to PP Stall Imp faster. Opted for FC to help take Gigatons, though aerobee suggest Power Trip which works just as fine. Defiant comes in handy to get attack boosts and be immune to Sap attack drops.

Ho-Oh :ho-oh:
A standard MG utility set, as I am writing this the council has its eyes towards Ho-Oh which partly explains why I am writing this now. With the people on the council banning RegenFurScales aka 99% of my teams are illegal now, this is one of the only good ones left that are still legal.

Gliscor :gliscor:
Not much to say other than its a Pheal mon. Trade Salt Cure and Knock with Imp though make sure you get Knocked only when you are poisoned. Spiky Shield was Bulwark, but with Bulwark ban, I had to change it to something else.

Eternatus :eternatus:
Regen set that has Dragon Energy as its main move, with chip stuff, pairs well with Ho-Oh IMO as a dual Regen core.

ANinjaDude cteaming you
stuff like Nasty Plot simple
super strong HO that can just wallbreak you

Hah! Got you to click! In all seriousness I don't save replays. I think I have one of beating splodge somewhere though its somewhere lol

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meta thoughts
Combining this post with my meta thoughts just so I don't take up too much space double posting and get accused of that warcrime
Overall, I like the meta rn, and the recent banslates, though I'm not that happy that RegenFurScales got banned. I personally didn't care about Bulwark :gouging fire: and Lucario ban :lucario-mega:, but RegenFurScales getting banned seem a bit too far. Personally, I'm not a stall guy like aerobee, but I felt like the current meta with RegenFurScales was a good meta, and this sudden shift of banning seemed too far. I had proposed a limit to 2-3 because I don't like RegenSpam teams ahem ANinjaDude. but yeah it is what it is
 
I'm also here to share a PokeBH team I made, and some of my thoughts on the meta.

:sv/cinderace: :sv/palkia-origin: :sv/altaria-mega: :sv/lucario-mega: :sv/ampharos-mega: :sv/chansey: i know lucario just got banned but this team was made before that happened


:cinderace:
When ANinjaDude said that Cinderace's whole niche over Meowscarada was being able to use V-create without activating Libero (or something like that), I decided to build around MGLO Cinderace. V-create is basically a must-have move (technically Flare Blitz could work, but the 50% extra power is overall better), Volt Tackle was mainly to hit Ho-oh and Toxapex, Glacial Lance is a good coverage move that hits stuff like Gliscor, and Wave Crash is mostly a filler move that I didn't use very much.
:palkia-origin:
I used FC Palkia as Cinderace's improof on this team too, and this time I used a Take Heart set. I chose Scald over Steam Eruption because I didn't want both of my attacks to have 8 PP in a meta where Pressure is very common. Lustrous Globe is mainly so Palkia can absorb Knock Off and Trick while still getting a damage boost.
:altaria-mega:
Mega Altaria is one of the best spinners in the format, and its typing lets it improof Palkia and Ampharos. Nuzzle might not be the best choice on this team because it cripples Mega Lucario and Cinderace, which are the team's only ways of dealing with opposing Altaria, but like I've said many times, I'm not the best builder. I don't really need to explain the other moves on Altaria because aerobee already has.
:lucario-mega:
Mega Lucario is one of the best wallbreakers in the format, with 145 base attack and Adaptability boosted Sunsteel Strikes and Gigaton Hammers. Close Combat is another good STAB move, and Trick is to cripple defensive Pokemon and it helped with Thankgodthismovegotbanneding Bulwarks. Fur Coat Palkia can also improof it.
:ampharos-mega:

I wasn't sure what else to add to this team, so I added the pink giraffe. I can't be bothered to explain the set because rightclicker already did.

:chansey:
I wasn't sure what else to add to this team (again), so I just slapped on imp. Originally it was Eviolite, but after The Hisui Region beat me with Take Heart Ghostceus I realised my team didn't really have any answers to it, so I changed to Spooky Plate.


Now for my thoughts on the new bans and the meta:
Regen+FurScales was kinda dumb, and I was the other person who said to limit Regenerator to 1 or 2 if it didn't get banned
Mega Lucario didn't seem too broken for me because I saw Ho-oh and/or Toxapex in a lot of battles, but since RegenFurScales I wasn't too sure on whether it should've been banned or not
I didn't see Zekrom very much so I'm not too sure about that ban either
Burning Bulwark was by far the most banworthy thing, now that it's gone you don't need to constantly scout for it
Stench was also kinda dumb

I think the most banworthy thing in the meta right now is Simple, Booster Energy, or Iron Valiant, but I haven't seen it in enough games to know for sure
 
:Greedent:ULTRA MIX HUB:Wiglett:
I have no idea how we went so long without a hub this gen but here it is​

What is Ultra Mix?
Ultra Mix is a mashup between Almost Any Ability, Alphabet Cup, Camomons, Mix and Mega, Tier Shift, and Scalemons. You may be thinking to yourself, "Wow Mr.TTLT thats a lot of OMs how am I ever going to build for such a complex format?" Well luckily for you the OMs damage calculator allows you to combine Mix and Mega, Tier Shift, and Scalemons, showing a pokemon's pre- and post-Mega Evolution stats. Here is an extremely simplified version of how the Pokemon work in this format. Lets take :greedent: and break it down.
Normally Greedent is a pretty horrid Pokemon in almost all formats, but in Ultra Mix is where it can finally shine.

1737063734412.png



Just looking at Greedent's scaled stats you can kind of already see why its good in Ultra Mix, as with Tier Shift it gets some respectable bulk with 120/164/135 stats and being anything but passive with 164 attack. Plus, with the letters S and G, Greedent has access to many support and damaging moves such as Stone Axe, Sacred Fire, Gigaton Hammer, Shore Up, Swords Dance, Spikes, and more. However, Greedent's stats are not the only thing getting scaled here as the Mega Stone buffs it gets are also scaled by the same boost Greedent gets. For example, if you gave Greedent Latiosite, instead of getting the normal +100 bst with 40/20/30/10 additions, Latiosite's stats would instead multiply by the scaling Greedent received (which is what Greedents stats are scaled by) giving Greedent +56 Attack, 28 Defense 42 Special Attack, and 14 Special Defense, for a total of +140 stats. This means lower BST Pokemon benefit more from Mega Stone boosts. I'll make another post showing more of how this scaling affects Pokemon in this format.

Council:
:mimikyu: Haha gamer'd (Tier Leader)
:Arbok: Clas
:Charizard-Mega-Y: The Dragon Master
:Solgaleo: The Hisui Region
:Pikachu-Belle: TheIronPikachu
Rules and Bans:
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is shown in percentages
Evasion Items Clause: Evasion items are banned
Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
Sleep Moves Clause: Sleep-inducing moves are banned
Terastal Clause: You cannot Terastallize
Camomons Mod: Pokémon have their types set to match their first two moves.
Scalemons Mod: Every Pokemon's stats, barring HP, are scaled to come as close to a BST of 600 as possible
Tier Shift Mod: Pokémon get stat buffs depending on their tier, excluding HP.
1 Ability Clause: Limit 1 of each ability
:dugtrio:Arena Trap
:komala: Comatose
:serperior: Contrary
:Dubwool:Fluffy
:Furfrou: Fur Coat
:darmanitan-galar:Gorilla Tactics
:Azumarill: Huge Power
:Frosmoth:Ice Scales
:Zoroark:Illusion
:ditto:Imposter
:pyukumuku:Innards Out
:Scovillain: Moody
:Weezing:Neutralizing Gas
:Kangaskhan-Mega:Parental Bond
:medicham: Pure Power
:Gothitelle: Shadow Tag
:bibarel: Simple
:blaziken: Speed Boost
:Araquanid:Water Bubble
:Shedinja:Wonder Guard
:Vigoroth:Vigoroth
:Basculin-White-Striped:Basculin-White-Striped
:Gastly:Gastly
:sneasler:Dire Claw
:Boltund:Electrify
:Lucario:Extreme Speed
:Houndstone:Last Respects
:Pawmi:Revival Blessing
:Garganacl:Salt Cure
:Cyclizar:Shed Tail
:polteageist:Shell Smash
:Magearna:Shift Gear
:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:Surging Strikes
:Zygarde:Thousand Arrows

Sample Teams:
WIP
 
:Greedent:ULTRA MIX HUB:Wiglett:
I have no idea how we went so long without a hub this gen but here it is​

What is Ultra Mix?
Ultra Mix is a mashup between Almost Any Ability, Alphabet Cup, Camomons, Mix and Mega, Tier Shift, and Scalemons. You may be thinking to yourself, "Wow Mr.TTLT thats a lot of OMs how am I ever going to build for such a complex format?" Well luckily for you the OMs damage calculator allows you to combine Mix and Mega, Tier Shift, and Scalemons, showing a pokemon's pre- and post-Mega Evolution stats. Here is an extremely simplified version of how the Pokemon work in this format. Lets take :greedent: and break it down.
Normally Greedent is a pretty horrid Pokemon in almost all formats, but in Ultra Mix is where it can finally shine.

1737063734412.png



Just looking at Greedent's scaled stats you can kind of already see why its good in Ultra Mix, as with Tier Shift it gets some respectable bulk with 120/164/135 stats and being anything but passive with 164 attack. Plus, with the letters S and G, Greedent has access to many support and damaging moves such as Stone Axe, Sacred Fire, Gigaton Hammer, Shore Up, Swords Dance, Spikes, and more. However, Greedent's stats are not the only thing getting scaled here as the Mega Stone buffs it gets are also scaled by the same boost Greedent gets. For example, if you gave Greedent Latiosite, instead of getting the normal +100 bst with 40/20/30/10 additions, Latiosite's stats would instead multiply by the scaling Greedent received (which is what Greedents stats are scaled by) giving Greedent +56 Attack, 28 Defense 42 Special Attack, and 14 Special Defense, for a total of +140 stats. This means lower BST Pokemon benefit more from Mega Stone boosts. I'll make another post showing more of how this scaling affects Pokemon in this format.

Council:
:mimikyu: Haha gamer'd (Tier Leader)
:Arbok: Clas
:Charizard-Mega-Y: The Dragon Master
:Solgaleo: The Hisui Region
:Pikachu-Belle: TheIronPikachu
Rules and Bans:
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is shown in percentages
Evasion Items Clause: Evasion items are banned
Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
Sleep Moves Clause: Sleep-inducing moves are banned
Terastal Clause: You cannot Terastallize
Camomons Mod: Pokémon have their types set to match their first two moves.
Scalemons Mod: Every Pokemon's stats, barring HP, are scaled to come as close to a BST of 600 as possible
Tier Shift Mod: Pokémon get stat buffs depending on their tier, excluding HP.
1 Ability Clause: Limit 1 of each ability
:dugtrio:Arena Trap
:komala: Comatose
:serperior: Contrary
:Dubwool:Fluffy
:Furfrou: Fur Coat
:darmanitan-galar:Gorilla Tactics
:Azumarill: Huge Power
:Frosmoth:Ice Scales
:Zoroark:Illusion
:ditto:Imposter
:pyukumuku:Innards Out
:Scovillain: Moody
:Weezing:Neutralizing Gas
:Kangaskhan-Mega:Parental Bond
:medicham: Pure Power
:Gothitelle: Shadow Tag
:bibarel: Simple
:blaziken: Speed Boost
:Araquanid:Water Bubble
:Shedinja:Wonder Guard
:Vigoroth:Vigoroth
:Basculin-White-Striped:Basculin-White-Striped
:Gastly:Gastly
:sneasler:Dire Claw
:Boltund:Electrify
:Lucario:Extreme Speed
:Houndstone:Last Respects
:Pawmi:Revival Blessing
:Garganacl:Salt Cure
:Cyclizar:Shed Tail
:polteageist:Shell Smash
:Magearna:Shift Gear
:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:Surging Strikes
:Zygarde:Thousand Arrows

Sample Teams:
WIP
How did TIP sneak onto the council
 
Camove Chaos Cup - Conclusion, Thoughts, and Statistics

Everyone's here.
:blissey::regirock::coalossal::cresselia::alomomola::toxapex::gliscor::rhyperior::tangrowth::hydrapple::weezing-galar::goodra-hisui::hatterene::tyranitar-mega::latias-mega::slowking-galar::clodsire::skeledirge::heatran::volcanion::archaludon::dragonite::glastrier::ursaluna-bloodmoon::reuniclus::rampardos::camerupt-mega::torkoal::roaring-moon::raging-bolt::walking-wake::pincurchin::iron-moth::iron-valiant::iron-bundle::politoed::swampert-mega::lopunny-mega::gyarados-mega::landorus-therian::scizor-mega::diancie-mega::ogerpon-hearthflame::blacephalon::pinsir-mega::blaziken::slaking::regigigas::dragapult::zeraora::naganadel::pidgeot-mega::sceptile::yanmega::gardevoir-mega::basculegion-f::tapu-lele::haxorus::kleavor::magnezone::mabosstiff::alakazam::shaymin-sky::lycanroc-dusk::tapu-bulu::excadrill::roserade::banette-mega::espeon::tornadus::thundurus::grimmsnarl:
Won't you have some camove too?

hi. my name is lily, or the hisui region, and i have had the pleasure of following the amazing meta of camove chaos since its very first game. the creation of this tier is my greatest success as an om mashup player and as a pokemon showdown user entirely. almost unrecognizable from its beginning in 2022, camove has risen to prominence as one of the most popular omms consistently throughout all of generation 9. its stature today in the community is very different from back when i struggled even to get it set as an omm roomtour. it is now commonplace to see it played in a variety of relatively followed omm and other meta related tours. i owe much of this to my former camove council of dluxe/linkcode, thetrueltaker (formerly haha gamer'd), dasocks, cautiousabandon, clas, gamer but swag, and my successor banded body press. without them, none of this would be possible. with the conclusion of the camove chaos cup (congrats to winner clas and runner up dluxe, both amazingly talented players), the council has decided that it is once again time for more tiering changes.

these tiering changes will preceded by a tiering survey, where the community will have the ability to vote on several detailed aspects of the meta and provide their own thoughts and insights on the tier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiering Survey
https://forms.gle/AAjjTYV37MTZqkXS7
Deadline: Jan 31 7:00 PM GMT+0
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
now, for my personal thoughts. i am incredibly honored to have been able to host the first all-camove forum tournament, and it certainly has shed some light on the tier. many people, including myself, have begun to realize that the tier is definitely, to say the least, reliant on matchup. with the seemingly infinite selection of moves that can be used on every pokemon, and the limited amount of moveslots and typings that can be ran on one team, building viable camove teams is very restrictive and some can automatically lose due to an unfortunate moveset on an opponent's sweeper. ironically, in a meta where anything can run anything, variety and freedom is lacked when building good sets. the most consistent mons in the tier are blissey, regirock, coalossal, and to an extent the few viable regenerators. if you want to consistently beat all of the super strong overbearing mons like mabosstiff, magnezone, ursaluna bloodmoon, any mixed fairy, and even lopunny, you need to dedicate a lot of teamslots to bulky mons that are less offense oriented. this was previously the case with stuff like zardy and darm, but a lot of new tech is just getting discovered (which is a good thing) and is causing the same problems. i haven't touched on substitute yet, but it's probably the most overlooked problem right now. kyurem was banned because of its ridiculous substitute aqua step bulk up heal order set, allowing it to bypass both spectral thief and topsy turvy, and basically forcing the unviable haze onto every team. we banned kyurem, and now usage is rising for sub/cm/moonblast/recovery archaludon. archaludon, while its stats arent as crazy as kyurem's, has stamina which allows it to boost its defense and set up calm minds behind substitutes. substitute granting immunity to sthief and topsy is pivotal as these are by far the most common setup countermeasures. it also invalidates wisp, dragon tail/circle throw, mortal spin, clear smog, and probably any other countermeasure you can think of that isn't just clicking band infiltrator dragapult gigaton hammer. the counterplay is extremely limited and sub/normal type is extremely splashable to btfo 90% of teams. i would say the best route is to ban mabosstiff, magnet pull, and substitute. i urge you, reader, to please fill out the tiering survey if you have played any camove and leave your thoughts on the meta, as it would greatly help save the meta, and you'd be helping the council more than you know. if you want to win games in the tp seasonal, use magnezone, mabosstiff, sub articuno or archaludon, ursaluna bloodmoon, or mega scizor. not all at once tho. click the above mons sprites for some mostly viable sets and thank you for reading. below i will post the usage stats for the camove tour and thank you everyone for playing and supporting the meta.


>> usage stats doc <<
notable points
- cresselia was used the most, being used in 84 games, slowking-galar was #2 with 71 games, and alakazam was #3 with 56 games
- shoutout to scizor for almost beating zam with 55 games
- cresselia was also the most used pokemon in four separate rounds
- archaludon is the most used pokemon to have a winrate of over 60, with 68.18% out of 22 games
- banette won 17 out of 21 games, roughly 81%
- blacephalon won 9 out of 11 games, a winrate of 81.82%, giving it the best winrate in the top 50
- 147 unique pokemon were used, which is almost one fourth of all fully evolved pokemon
- mabosstiff and blastoise were both used in 7 games and both lost 7 games, hatterene was used in 5 and lost 5


thanks for your time!
 
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now, for my personal thoughts. i am incredibly honored to have been able to host the first all-camove forum tournament, and it certainly has shed some light on the tier. many people, including myself, have begun to realize that the tier is definitely, to say the least, reliant on matchup. with the seemingly infinite selection of moves that can be used on every pokemon, and the limited amount of moveslots and typings that can be ran on one team, building viable camove teams is very restrictive and some can automatically lose due to an unfortunate moveset on an opponent's sweeper. ironically, in a meta where anything can run anything, variety and freedom is lacked when building good sets. the most consistent mons in the tier are blissey, regirock, coalossal, and to an extent the few viable regenerators. if you want to consistently beat all of the super strong overbearing mons like mabosstiff, magnezone, ursaluna bloodmoon, any mixed fairy, and even lopunny, you need to dedicate a lot of teamslots to bulky mons that are less offense oriented. this was previously the case with stuff like zardy and darm, but a lot of new tech is just getting discovered (which is a good thing) and is causing the same problems. i haven't touched on substitute yet, but it's probably the most overlooked problem right now. kyurem was banned because of its ridiculous substitute aqua step bulk up heal order set, allowing it to bypass both spectral thief and topsy turvy, and basically forcing the unviable haze onto every team. we banned kyurem, and now usage is rising for sub/cm/moonblast/recovery archaludon. archaludon, while its stats arent as crazy as kyurem's, has stamina which allows it to boost its defense and set up calm minds behind substitutes. substitute granting immunity to sthief and topsy is pivotal as these are by far the most common setup countermeasures. it also invalidates wisp, dragon tail/circle throw, mortal spin, clear smog, and probably any other countermeasure you can think of that isn't just clicking band infiltrator dragapult gigaton hammer. the counterplay is extremely limited and sub/normal type is extremely splashable to btfo 90% of teams. i would say the best route is to ban mabosstiff, magnet pull, and substitute. i urge you, reader, to please fill out the tiering survey if you have played any camove and leave your thoughts on the meta, as it would greatly help save the meta, and you'd be helping the council more than you know. if you want to win games in the tp seasonal, use magnezone, mabosstiff, sub articuno or archaludon, ursaluna bloodmoon, or mega scizor. not all at once tho. click the above mons sprites for some mostly viable sets and thank you for reading. below i will post the usage stats for the camove tour and thank you everyone for playing and supporting the meta.
Near completely agree with this, though I also want to add that the offensive power level is also simply too high relative to defense to maximize building variety and skill expression when playing – the majority of interactions involving a PhysDef mon coming in to check a SD foe result in 50-50s between Strength Sap and attacking (often via Foul Play or Spectral Thief) that can't be meaningfully mitigated if the opponent lives one attack. Much of this is just the nature of the metagame – +2 attacks should always be able to 2HKO common walls – but at the same time this facet of gameplay is uninteractive. On the special side, you either run Blissey and take 40-70 at +2 or a Regenerator pivot (overrated btw), take a good bit more, and pivot to something else – even worse since there's no special Strength Sap equivalent, so if Blissey either has to run Spectral and/or Topsy/Parting Shot to both have generally good typing or pivot to a faster/priority teammate to force the opponent out. Generally lowering the offensive power level so less bulky mons with more convenient Abilities (Sturdy is actually pretty decent but Regenerator/Flash Fire/Lightning Rod/Levitate are obviously more worthwhile) is the best way to go about it imo. My tiering takes have not changed significantly from at the time I wrote this post, except with maybe greater clarification on which game elements I'd potentially want gone. I'll add more to this post if I realize I forgot anything.
  • Ban Astral Barrage, the practical use case is for mons to bust through conventional answers with OHKOes/2HKOes even after Topsy with STAB
  • Ban Rising Voltage, I think ETerrain is frankly broken and only held back by lack of consistency
  • Maybe ban Gigaton Hammer, hits inordinately hard on some things but I personally like how defensive mons can exert pressure using this move
  • Ban Stakeout (Mabosstiff works to an extent but walls are slow enough that Gumshoos isn't unusably bad), incentivizes building HO/stall over balance because the latter has the hardest time with near-unwallable Banded mons
  • Alakazam has minimal defensive counterplay and increases matchup variance because it can basically tech for anything without losing too much effectiveness. Not broken but is unhealthy enough to warrant a ban imo
  • I think Scrappy is conceptually healthy but Bloodmoon is not – unreasonably hard to wall without faster Cresselia and most would-be answers lose to one of Psystrike or Substitute. Oblivion Wing on this is also cancer
  • Mega Scizor sports too good a combination of bulk and power – walls struggle to out-offense via Spectral and faster foes have to worry about strong priority. Not conventionally broken imo but does overly restrict team structures to ones that can realistically attempt to handle it (ex. Regirock over Alomomola so you survive at +2). If base Scizor turns out to be too powerful we can also look at Dragon Darts
  • Specs Raging Bolt in Sun 2HKOes neutral Blissey with Blue Flare/Armor Cannon
  • Banded Roaring Moon is also kinda crazy but to a lesser degree imo
  • Zard X is basically unwallable unless you severely restrict your defensive typings to accommodate for it (Regirock/PhysDef Coalossal get 2HKOed by Electro Drift, leaving basically Electric/Poison Cresselia, Rhydon/Rhyperior, and random Water/Grounds, all of which can be feasibly teched for)
  • Mixed Mega Diancie is very hard to defensively handle without very good matchup (Magma Storm/Headlong/Spikes or Stone Axe/Sap is what I've been running but you can definitely vary the set)
  • Mega Gardevoir is pretty annoying to handle but I think it's manageable
  • Consider banning Oblivion Wing, users can run away with games inordinately easily due to the passivity of special walls
  • Unban Heal Order imo, nowadays a lot of offensive mons just win against so-called checks by wearing them down. (Un)fortunately, depending on how you see it, in a meta where any mon can choose their typing and coverage there inherently won't be a great balance between consistency/skill expression and fast pacing but from a tiering standpoint only the former really matters. Also Coalossal (which greatly improves consistency due to having no weaknesses with Bug/Steel) becomes better
  • If none of the above happen, consider freeing Giratina (Type: Null is about as bulky with Eviolite and almost no one's running that) or select Arceus formes (assuming Multitype locks you to your respective type)
As for cheese/generally unhealthy interactions:
  • Magnet Pull is like the most obviously unhealthy game element out there when MagPull users can choose whatever attacks they want
  • Ban Substitute. If you build competently Sub users aren't difficult to deal with but the range team structures that do happen to deal with it are quite a bit less than would be the case in a post-Sub meta
  • Shaymin-Sky can go, even without Normal-type for Spectral you can bs through checks enough to sweep (my favorite is Discharge/Mountain Gale/Coil/Sub but even if Substitute were to go it'd likely remain potent)
  • Ban Slaking, Skill Swap sets are matchup fishes but are also potent enough in general to be justifiable in general. Regigigas is in the same boat but I find it somewhat less effective in general
  • Ban Unburden, I don't think people use Sceptile very much anymore but it's an unhealthy game element regardless
  • I think Pursuit is generally healthy but it warrants discussion – restricting non-PhysDef defensive mons' typings to being non-Dark-weak is fine, but some stronger Pursuit users can also threaten neutral foes and with Knock Off and an additional STAB that's where things start to become questionable
  • Normalize is not a problem in the slightest but if you want to hit all cheese I guess that can go too
Misc.:
  • Ban Stone Axe maybe? Leaning slightly in favor since hazards seem a bit too easy to reliably set right now I don't really mind if it stays
  • Could honestly consider banning Z-moves, to truly be safe you have to consider otherwise suboptimal plays to account for a potentially significantly stronger opposing attack when offensive threats can already barely be contained
  • Can't justify a ban but I hate Torch Song
  • Ban Boots? (contingent on Heal Order unban)
 
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Near completely agree with this, though I also want to add that the offensive power level is also simply too high relative to defense to maximize building variety and skill expression when playing – the majority of interactions involving a PhysDef mon coming in to check a SD foe result in 50-50s between Strength Sap and attacking (often via Foul Play or Spectral Thief) that can't be meaningfully mitigated if the opponent lives one attack. Much of this is just the nature of the metagame – +2 attacks should always be able to 2HKO common walls – but at the same time this facet of gameplay is uninteractive. On the special side, you either run Blissey and take 40-70 at +2 or a Regenerator pivot (overrated btw), take a good bit more, and pivot to something else – even worse since there's no special Strength Sap equivalent, so if Blissey either has to run Spectral and/or Topsy/Parting Shot to both have generally good typing or pivot to a faster/priority teammate to force the opponent out. Generally lowering the offensive power level so less bulky mons with more convenient Abilities (Sturdy is actually pretty decent but Regenerator/Flash Fire/Lightning Rod/Levitate are obviously more worthwhile) is the best way to go about it imo. My tiering takes have not changed significantly from at the time I wrote this post, except with maybe greater clarification on which game elements I'd potentially want gone. I'll add more to this post if I realize I forgot anything.
  • Ban Astral Barrage, the practical use case is for mons to bust through conventional answers with OHKOes/2HKOes even after Topsy with STAB
  • Ban Rising Voltage, I think ETerrain is frankly broken and only held back by lack of consistency
  • Maybe ban Gigaton Hammer, hits inordinately hard on some things but I personally like how defensive mons can exert pressure using this move
  • Ban Stakeout (Mabosstiff works to an extent but walls are slow enough that Gumshoos isn't unusably bad), incentivizes building HO/stall over balance because the latter has the hardest time with near-unwallable Banded mons
  • Alakazam has minimal defensive counterplay and increases matchup variance because it can basically tech for anything without losing too much effectiveness. Not broken but is unhealthy enough to warrant a ban imo
  • I think Scrappy is conceptually healthy but Bloodmoon is not – unreasonably hard to wall without faster Cresselia and most would-be answers lose to one of Psystrike or Substitute. Oblivion Wing on this is also cancer
  • Mega Scizor sports too good a combination of bulk and power – walls struggle to out-offense via Spectral and faster foes have to worry about strong priority. Not conventionally broken imo but does overly restrict team structures to ones that can realistically attempt to handle it (ex. Regirock over Alomomola so you survive at +2). If base Scizor turns out to be too powerful we can also look at Dragon Darts
  • Specs Raging Bolt in Sun 2HKOes neutral Blissey with Blue Flare/Armor Cannon
  • Banded Roaring Moon is also kinda crazy but to a lesser degree imo
  • Zard X is basically unwallable unless you severely restrict your defensive typings to accommodate for it (Regirock/PhysDef Coalossal get 2HKOed by Electro Drift, leaving basically Electric/Poison Cresselia, Rhydon/Rhyperior, and random Water/Grounds, all of which can be feasibly teched for)
  • Mixed Mega Diancie is very hard to defensively handle without very good matchup (Magma Storm/Headlong/Spikes or Stone Axe/Sap is what I've been running but you can definitely vary the set)
  • Mega Gardevoir is pretty annoying to handle but I think it's manageable
  • Consider banning Oblivion Wing, users can run away with games inordinately easily due to the passivity of special walls
  • Unban Heal Order imo, nowadays a lot of offensive mons just win against so-called checks by wearing them down. (Un)fortunately, depending on how you see it, in a meta where any mon can choose their typing and coverage there inherently won't be a great balance between consistency/skill expression and fast pacing but from a tiering standpoint only the former really matters. Also Coalossal (which greatly improves consistency due to having no weaknesses with Bug/Steel) becomes better
  • If none of the above happen, consider freeing Giratina (Type: Null is about as bulky with Eviolite and almost no one's running that) or select Arceus formes (assuming Multitype locks you to your respective type)
As for cheese/generally unhealthy interactions:
  • Magnet Pull is like the most obviously unhealthy game element out there when MagPull users can choose whatever attacks they want
  • Ban Substitute. If you build competently Sub users aren't difficult to deal with but the range team structures that do happen to deal with it are quite a bit less than would be the case in a post-Sub meta
  • Shaymin-Sky can go, even without Normal-type for Spectral you can bs through checks enough to sweep (my favorite is Discharge/Mountain Gale/Coil/Sub but even if Substitute were to go it'd likely remain potent)
  • Ban Slaking, Skill Swap sets are matchup fishes but are also potent enough in general to be justifiable in general. Regigigas is in the same boat but I find it somewhat less effective in general
  • Ban Unburden, I don't think people use Sceptile very much anymore but it's an unhealthy game element regardless
  • I think Pursuit is generally healthy but it warrants discussion – restricting non-PhysDef defensive mons' typings to being non-Dark-weak is fine, but some stronger Pursuit users can also threaten neutral foes and with Knock Off and an additional STAB that's where things start to become questionable
  • Normalize is not a problem in the slightest but if you want to hit all cheese I guess that can go too
Misc.:
  • Ban Stone Axe maybe? Leaning slightly in favor since hazards seem a bit too easy to reliably set right now I don't really mind if it stays
  • Could honestly consider banning Z-moves, to truly be safe you have to consider otherwise suboptimal plays to account for a potentially significantly stronger opposing attack when offensive threats can already barely be contained
  • Can't justify a ban but I hate Torch Song
  • Ban Boots? (contingent on Heal Order unban)
Sounds like what a stall lover would say ngl
 
:sv/golisopod::sv/reshiram::sv/sneasler:

Regenerator + Emergency Exit/Wimp Out and Reshiram are banned from PokeBH! Unburden is now restricted!
aerobee
ANinjaDude
Clas
NoobSpammer
Lysion
rightclicker
The Hisui Region
Result (Y-N-A)
Regen + Wimp Out clones​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
7-0-0 BAN​
Reshiram​
BAN​
ABS​
BAN​
BAN​
ABS​
ABS​
BAN​
4-0-3 BAN​
Restrict Unburden​
ABS​
YES​
ABS​
YES​
YES​
YES​
NO​
4-1-2 YES​

:golisopod::wimpod:
Mostly a policy thing – while one would have had to run Pokemon at low enough levels that they are basically irrelevant in battle, it was technically possible to regain the same raw HP from Regenerator that would be lost from switching into Stealth Rock + 3 Spikes, allowing for a truly endless battle.

:reshiram:
Reshiram was unreasonably hard to wall without Ability Shield, especially considering one couldn't reliably make out on preview if it were physical (V-create) or special (usually NP/Torch Song setup). Additionally, Speed Boost and Unburden sets could discourage Imposter from hard switching in, giving it a degree of autonomy against teams relying on Imposter against it (and true defensive options were severely restricted).

:sneasler:
Unburden users here were significantly more powerful than they are in base BH, as users included decently strong Mold Breaker users (Ogerpon-H, Reshiram) and there were a wider range of Imposter-proofed sets (for example, with Fire STAB Ceruledge). While not necessarily consistent and mostly consigned to HO archetypes, non-native Unburden was considered unhealthy enough to warrant a ban.
 
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SMEARGLE AND VICTORY DANCE HAVE BEEN RESTRICTED AND LAST RESPECTS HAS BEEN BANNED FROM ULTRA MIX!
TheTrueLtakerTheDragonMasterClasTheIronPikachuTheHisuiRegionResults
Last RespectsBANBANDNBBANBAN4-1 BAN
SmeargleRESTRICTRESTRICTRESTRICTRESTRICTRESTRICT5-0 RESTRICT
VibravaDNRRESTRICTDNRRESTRICTDNR3-2 DNR
Victory DanceRESTRICTDNRRESTRICTRESTRICTRESTRICT4-1 RESTRICT
:Smeargle:Smeargle with its insane movepool and scaling allows it to basically run any stone and typing in the game making it hard to have consistent counterplay for if you don't know what its running. It also abuses the broken moves in the format that are allowed due to uncommon letters.

:Lilligant-Hisui:Victory Dance is basically just the V-create enabler allowing the V mons to become bulkier faster and stronger.

:Houndstone:Last Respects has been banned since it was a move that could cheese games vs weakened phys walls and is just a dumb move in general.
 
pokebh sets but they arent fun or good and are actually just fucking garbage and delusional and you get the point

:sv/swampert-mega:
Swampert-Mega @ Covert Cloak / Splash Plate
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Surging Strikes
- Precipice Blades
- Jungle Healing

big speed + big power or something. awful into dondozo which is fine bc that guy sucks but the real killer is being awful into desoland hooh. at least you can use that as an improof

:sv/heatran:
Heatran @ Ability Shield / Covert Cloak
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed / Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Salt Cure
- Shore Up
- Teleport
- Topsy-Turvy / Nuzzle

actually checks a bunch of stuff (glisc, hooh, darmg, etc) but because of reliance on resistances/immunities instead of raw stats you can be bruteforced through easily by things you do not resist

:sv/haxorus:
Haxorus @ Choice Band
Ability: Sword of Ruin / Dragon's Maw
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glaive Rush
- Gigaton Hammer / Dragon Darts
- V-create
- Bolt Strike / Gigaton Hammer

tiny kyub :3 you deal pretty big damage but slow and 0 bulk

:sv/landorus-therian:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Victory Dance
- Spirit Shackle
- Earthquake
- Strength Sap

youre like setup gliscor but with better initial bulk so you can check some stuff better. also you have more atk i guess. thats literally it

:sv/pinsir-mega:
PTEROWL HAZUKU (Pinsir-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- V-create
- U-turn
- Stone Axe / Spikes

big mence but instead of having to improof it you just bop imposter with your fly stab and call it a day
(you still have to improof it but shut up let me make this guy look not as bad as he is)

:sv/venusaur-mega:
Venusaur-Mega @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Healing Wish
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Haze

sole psyc weakness probably gives this guy a niche but im too lazy to actually build so i just made him prank screens for now
 
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