I fail to see how. Could you elaborate?
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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Pokemon and Bomberman kind of have the issue of core gameplay barely innovating outside addons for a lobg while. Bomberman suffered from it being immediately noticeable late 90s, so for "Bombermsn Hero" Hudson Soft tried a conventional 3D platformer, then a region locked arena fighter on Sega Saturn, then a mixed gameplay N64 "platformer", then GC/PS2 they experiment with arena based movement alongside a pet rpg system
Unfortunately they suddenly stopped doing mainline Bomberman titles on home console afterwards (hard to tell if it's cuz of Act Zero or not), along with most spinoffs that were either overly done party games for Land, or handheld/digital download standard Bomberman games. Then Konami bought them and...repeated the same issues for not innovating but with scummier DLC practice
Pokemon...yeah by Gen 3 we should've ditched 4 directional movement and gotten better OW story focus, but it took till Gen 6 to break the former, Gen 7 to actually model environments none rigidly, and Gen 5 attempting the latter is mixed given map design mainly
So I agree with ant that Plat isn't really worth comparing to OoT in terms of tech or gameplay progression. A lot of what made Plat way better than DP is...bringing back shit from previous Gens (Better surf speed, Mons, Battle Frontier). Distortion World while cool as a setpiece is gameplay wise not that different, and Cyrus' undercooked antisocialness is only mildly improved. Cynthia incidentally is nerfed for first fight, and doesn't actually do much when joining the player to the Distortion World. So she's still a bootleg Steven story wise :V
This is also why BDSP didn't piss me off despite being mid. It fixed DPs mon distribution issue with the Grand Underground mechanics, and general QoL improvements Gen 5 on eases a lot of things (especially the HM slave issue). It's just aesthetically mixed, and Gym/E4 teams from DP being memeably bad. The affection mechanics do hurt the game difficulty immensely, though rematch teams aren't fucking around
Unfortunately they suddenly stopped doing mainline Bomberman titles on home console afterwards (hard to tell if it's cuz of Act Zero or not), along with most spinoffs that were either overly done party games for Land, or handheld/digital download standard Bomberman games. Then Konami bought them and...repeated the same issues for not innovating but with scummier DLC practice
Pokemon...yeah by Gen 3 we should've ditched 4 directional movement and gotten better OW story focus, but it took till Gen 6 to break the former, Gen 7 to actually model environments none rigidly, and Gen 5 attempting the latter is mixed given map design mainly
So I agree with ant that Plat isn't really worth comparing to OoT in terms of tech or gameplay progression. A lot of what made Plat way better than DP is...bringing back shit from previous Gens (Better surf speed, Mons, Battle Frontier). Distortion World while cool as a setpiece is gameplay wise not that different, and Cyrus' undercooked antisocialness is only mildly improved. Cynthia incidentally is nerfed for first fight, and doesn't actually do much when joining the player to the Distortion World. So she's still a bootleg Steven story wise :V
This is also why BDSP didn't piss me off despite being mid. It fixed DPs mon distribution issue with the Grand Underground mechanics, and general QoL improvements Gen 5 on eases a lot of things (especially the HM slave issue). It's just aesthetically mixed, and Gym/E4 teams from DP being memeably bad. The affection mechanics do hurt the game difficulty immensely, though rematch teams aren't fucking around
Another day, another post that I can't neatly fit into any thread so I'm picking this one off vibes
I've been replaying XY for obvious reasons and one thing that came to mind upon ruminating on this game is that in some ways it might've actually served as a better 20th anniversary celebration than SM
-Despite sticking closer to the grid-based map design of old, Kalos is undeniably a higher scope region than Alola with a huge number of routes, the biggest regional Pokedex and several hefty manmade landmarks including the biggest city up to that point. This would've made sense if their release order had hypothetically been reversed - Start small(er) to adjust to 3D, then go all-out for the 20th with more experience on the hardware
-Mega Evolution's celebratory applications, especially with several being for perennial mascots like the Kanto starters, Mewtwo and Lucario, are self-explanatory
-While there aren't any old character cameos, Kalos has plenty of pronounced callbacks to old regions (Santalune Forest being based on Viridian, Sycamore studying under Rowan, the Reshiram & Zekrom statues at Parfum Palace, etc.)
-Even the mascot legendary duo being based around the cycle of life and death could've plausibly been used for some kind of meta commentary on the franchise's longevity
I've been replaying XY for obvious reasons and one thing that came to mind upon ruminating on this game is that in some ways it might've actually served as a better 20th anniversary celebration than SM
-Despite sticking closer to the grid-based map design of old, Kalos is undeniably a higher scope region than Alola with a huge number of routes, the biggest regional Pokedex and several hefty manmade landmarks including the biggest city up to that point. This would've made sense if their release order had hypothetically been reversed - Start small(er) to adjust to 3D, then go all-out for the 20th with more experience on the hardware
-Mega Evolution's celebratory applications, especially with several being for perennial mascots like the Kanto starters, Mewtwo and Lucario, are self-explanatory
-While there aren't any old character cameos, Kalos has plenty of pronounced callbacks to old regions (Santalune Forest being based on Viridian, Sycamore studying under Rowan, the Reshiram & Zekrom statues at Parfum Palace, etc.)
-Even the mascot legendary duo being based around the cycle of life and death could've plausibly been used for some kind of meta commentary on the franchise's longevity
Generation 5 started the linear story Pokemon game.
While there are some side routes, the region has significantly more in common with a region like Galar than it does Sinnoh, Hoenn, Kanto or Johto. It's essentially a circle with a line underneath that is used as the tutorial, and you walk around that circle until hitting the top.
This reflects in how the locations are not very interconnected, as became the case with almost every Pokemon game since this region.
In a game like Hoenn or Sinnoh, most towns will have several routes. An example is Mauville, you can go West and it connects to Rustboro, East which is where you go when you get Surf. South is Lilycove, and North is the main story progression.
While some towns aren't this dense, most of them are, with several ways to get in and out from many directions. Unova and future regions instead take a very linear structure of Town -> Route -> Town with them not connecting very much. Where Unova does do this, is usually reserved for connections to the post-game areas.
This is because, before the Unova games, the regions had a Metroidvania-esque progression where they gave more paths to backtrack as you got more exploration tools, and because they *wanted* you to see obstacles and go back, open up new paths.
While a lot of these are optional, the fact is that Unova and most subsequent games have few connections because the towns are less meant to be hub stops between routes, and more window dressing with core necessary parts on the way to the next story event, or places just to have a Gym Badge.
Because Unova is a story-game first where they want high pacing and to push you down further with repeated boss battles and constantly seeing new places. From Unova and onward, there's an increased focus on having several Rivals because they want to give players many boss battles as a finger snap to pay attention.
Let's compare Unova's first Gym and Melemele Island versus the beginning moments (up to the first gym) of Sinnoh games.
Unova: You start off with the two rival fights, standard fair, of course. But then you get to Accumula Town and have a Rival fight against N. Then you get to the end of the second route and you fight Bianca again. Now you fight Cheren again. Then you fight the Gym.
That's 6 total Major Story Battles.
Melemele Island has your opening fight with Hau of course, then you fight him again, then you fight Trial Captain as a fairly tough fight, then you fight the Trial Captain. That's 5 total Major Story Battles.
In Sinnoh, you fight Barry, then you get to do an entire route. Then you fight Barry one more time, then you take another route and after exploring the cave you fight the Gym.
3 Total Major Story Battles.
But that's not all. Because what's also extremely noticeable is how this pacing continues throughout the games. Alola and Unova are especially guilty of constant boss battles or Team Encounters. In Unova, I've talked several times before about how every single time you leave a town in this game you get stopped for a Team Plasma / Rival encounter, and that should be very clear from just memory. Striation City -> Nimbasa City is an obvious one.
First, you fight Bug Man. Then you get stopped by Bianca at the gate for a battle. Then you get stopped by Cheren in the Desert. Then you have to fight N at Nimbasa City. Then you fight the Gym leader.
Alola and Galar have similar parallels.
I didn't mention it before, but here's Galar's First Gym Run:
Fight Hop.
Fight Hop again.
Fight Hop a Third Time.
Fight Bede in the Cave.
Fight the first Gym Leader.
5
Now, I will say that Galar is not nearly as guilty as Alola/Unova for spamming bossfights, but that's also honestly probably because the game is unfinished lol. The game in general is devoid of many moments At All and we have clear evidence in datamines of cut content. That being said, the game is not really devoid of this practice, as they made three rivals for a reason.
Between the second and third gyms, for instance, you fight Bede and Marnie, then afterwards you fight Hop again. These games are constantly cycling encounters.
Just on a numerical count, I'm lazy so I'm using Nuzlocke Tracker but let's graph out the boss fight total number count by game:
I used Firered/Heartgold as the remakes because I thought that just made sense.
Asterisks:
Heartgold* I removed the Kanto Gym Leaders, Red and the encounter with your rival at Mt. Moon. I consider this post-game material, but if you do count that as the main game, it's 38.
Ultra Sun* The original number was 54 including the Team Rainbow Rocket storyline, which has like 8 boss fights on its own. I don't consider that the main storyline.
As you can see, on average there is a massive jump from Sinnoh to Unova that stays strong, and even increases from there. Scarlet and Sword are at a decline, but still above Sinnoh by a decent amount. Except Black 2 and White 2. Now, let me talk about that real quick:
EDIT: I fucked up the graph. See, Idk why but when I made the first iteration of it I didn't include B2W2, and then when editing it back in I messed up the order. Swap Pokemon X and Black 2 on the graph for it to be accurate, and that is why I talk about how B2W2 is a low point directly after.
Black 2 and White 2 could be seen as a counter-argument to this graph and my point about bossfights I'm about to get into, but I don't think it goes against my overall point.
Now, why do I focus on bossfights so hard? Because IMO this is a great representation of the shift between Gen 1-4 and Gen 5-8: Gens 1-4 are primarily routes with bossfights as little treats, towns as rewards for making it through a long bit of gameplay without heals. Gen 5 and onward, bossfights are very frequent and the focus on routes is much smaller. The game is mostly about getting through story moments and the routes are just ways to get between Point A and B.
Black 2 and White 2 is still like this, which is really the overall point- I just like how bossfights *generally* show this shift in trend for plot and focus in the games' designs, but I am not going to argue it is a cause-and-effect necessarily. I believe it to be generally true, but I do understand it's not simply cause and effect in of itself.
Anywho, the point on map design. Here is how you move through B2W2:
Now this is, like Kalos, still basically just a loop where sometimes you go to a side dungeon and then go back to the town there. The only thing that really is a connector in the main storyline is Undella Town, where you back track through, with several towns it actually connects to, which is rare from here on out.
But overall I still think this is 100% a loop. It's also just a very linear map in general. It's something you can't get around in a Unova game- because literally it's a oval.
I touched on BW1's map design earlier, and I wanna note that Galar is very similar it's kinda just two smaller Unovas stacked onto each other. A few side routes not there, sure, but also the Wild Area frankly evens it out in my opinion:
View attachment 711592
Alola is similar in that you're mainly going in circles around Islands before finishing a loop and that's the end of the island. Poni Poni is the only one that isn't really like this.
A common critique of a lot of this era of games is that these games feel like Disney parks rather than open adventures, and that started with Unova, frankly.
Kalos may look a bit more complicated, but it's really just still a loop around the region with little interconnectivity outside of Lumiose City; like, the bare minimum.
It's a more windy loop where sometimes you go to a side area before going back to the main route, but like the only interconnectivity is really Santalune (which doesn't matter until you beat the game) and Lumiose, where you go back several times to fight Lysandre/Get the badge and go to Route 14.
You can use Route 16 to Dendemille but wow, like one option? Crazy. I guess my point is dismantled.
The only map you can argue is semi-similar to this sort of trend is the Johto map because it's small and has a loop in the middle with two outside lines.
But what it lacks for in map connectivity it makes up for how the second half of the region is essentially a neat CYOA as we all know, where you can do gyms out of order to an extent.
This is another point in this argument where you can use this one example where my point isn't extremely obviously true and go "well guess I'm throwing the entire thing out", but I think we can all implicitly understand that Kanto, Hoenn and Sinnoh have extremely similar map design sensibilities and Unova, Kalos, Alola and Galar all pretty much do as well.
Johto itself is a weird case because of how it's a Kanto DLC and I still think it has more freedom than any game past Sinnoh. Shit, even the fact that the loop connects back so nicely without it taking the *full region* is part of why Crystal Clear works so well.
Now let's look at some other points of Sinnoh's design and specifically presentation:
Pokemon Black and White already essentially had the essentials of how 3D Pokemon would work, compared to Sinnoh which is still basically PNGs with a song in the background.
Here's some things that both Pokemon Black and Pokemon X's battle scenes have in common:
-The camera moves. It tries to be more dynamic by moving about while waiting to select your move.
-The Pokemon are constantly animated, giving more energy to the scene.
-The camera zooms in on certain attacks, giving more depth to the animation.
Notice how none of that shit is in common with Platinum? Because Platinum was very behind its time and basically felt like a ported up GBA battle system graphically.
Now, I know this may seem "petty" kind of, but this is the kind of thing that to me makes Gen 5 such a 3D Pokemon coded game: Because frankly it basically is one, it's just on the DS.
The Era of Shitting Out Battle Gimmicks:
Pokemon Black and White started a trend in the series where games kept adding random whacky ways to battle, which hadn't been the case since Emerald, essentially.
Here's the new Battle Formats by game. I am not counting Contests, I consider those minigames. Bulbapedia Source:
Full Battle: Gen 1
Double Battle: Gen 3
Multi Battle: Gen 3
Triple Battle: Gen 5
Rotation Battle: Gen 5
Launcher Battle: Gen 5
Horde Battle: Gen 6
Sky Battle: Gen 6
Inverse Battle: Gen 6
Battle Royale: Gen 7
SOS Battle: Gen 7
Max Raid Battle: Gen 8
Tera Raid Battle: Gen 9
Outside of Double Battles and basically just that with 1 player per Pokemon on the field in Gen 3, almost every single new type of battle in the series comes from Gen 5+.
Now I want to get into like, actually Sinnoh and its design philosophy.
Sinnoh is, in my opinion, actually a pretty unintuitive region to navigate, especially as a kid. I know this because when I was a kid I was one of those people that accidentally went out of order in gyms, and spent a lot longer going through side routes because I didn't know what I was doing. We also know the developers between DP and Plat took this into heart because they changed the official Badge order lol.
It doesn't help that, another minor change between games, remember that after Generation 1 all of Johto, Hoenn and Sinnoh get funky with the Route numbers while Unova and beyond restart with Route 1 or have other names.
Sinnoh is a region that has towns connecting into each other and routes splitting off a decent amount. It's very much a part of the game that you are going to be going back to places and going off new splintered areas, backtracking through the region with new tools or just newly available parts of the storyline.
There's only really two times during a Unova playthrough where using Fly is your only way out of a big backtracking segment, which is the way to Relic Castle and back. (btw just realized I forgor to put this on the map thing, apologies! That isn't me trying to be dishonest, I just forgot!)
Meanwhile Sinnoh is gonna take you for a ride all over the fucking place.
Now, I want to be clear, this is not me necessarily criticizing Sinnoh's region being like this, my issues aren't interconnectivity. But that I think it's very immediately clear that this is absolutely not how Unova+ games are designed.
And it's not just a Sinnoh thing, Hoenn and Kanto similarly take you for a ride:
For the sake of example, I'm gonna have this Kanto route go in dev-order of badges. I'm also gonna use Bulbapedia's guide of getting to Fuschia but you can do whatevs you like ofc. Personally I am Cycling Road pilled:
And Hoenn:
Less complex than Kanto and Sinnoh IMO, but overall much more interconnectivity and backtracking through the plot. There's also a lot of optional routes that head back to other places that you can take, but I'm mapping out the main story route. evil tea
In terms of pacing, Gens 1-4 generally focus on having many side routes and core routes that are relatively calm, and usually demanding to get through without expending a lot of heals or backtracking to a Pokemon Center. There's usually less encounters with story relevant characters, but usually with Evil Teams they're much larger segments.
In Gens 5-8, the side characters, plot and evil team is much more directly interwoven to the plot and core design of the region, the region feeling more like straight lines in order to make good setpieces to feed all of this to you. Routes tend to be shorter with more rest stops and HMs are de-emphasized, until they're streamlined as hell.
Most things Unova introduces are true for Gens 5-8, big or small. Hidden Abilities. Permanent TMs. Even stuff like the quick select that was reused in Gen 6, there's way more cohesion. Gen 4 and 5 are not actually very similar of games, anymore than Alola and Sinnoh are!
People group them together because they're both on the same system and we're in the nostalgia cycle where both of these games are supposed to share the crowned spot as "the peak", but in truth Unova starts so much of modern series design philosophy. I feel like the only things people really have is "they both have a lot of post game content" which like, sure I guess? I think the main campaigns matter a lot more to the game design of the series, though. There's just so much that Unova does that is more in line with modern games: B2W2 really is the start of The Giant Fucking Regional Dex.
Stolen from R_N 's old ass post:
Emerald: 202
DP: 151
Platinum: 210
BW: 156
B2W2: 301!!!
Kalos: 457
SM: 302
USUM: 403
Galar: 400
B2W2 really started the Expansion of the dex, adding around 100 before XY crushed that record (becoming the largest). Clearly that was too much so since then we've settled from 300 -> 400, which in my opinion is honestly a pretty good number.
Overall, I think that Unova sparks a change in priority in the design of the series, how the series will go aesthetically (even musically, but I don't have the music brain to dissect that, IMO music Gen 5 and up sounds pretty different than Gen 1 to 4) and that it feels like the devs in this soft-reboot. I dunno. Soft-rebooted the series.
Which means that a lot of the design of old, of which Sinnoh was a part of, was kinda pushed aside. A lot of Sinnoh's legacy is as I said initially, nostalgia, Cynthia memes and some of the Pokemon designs, many of the most popular being evolutions of old Pokemon. It's not that Sinnoh has nothing going for it, but it is not a game that set the stage for what the series would become. It is not an Ocarina of Time at all.
Anywho I could talk a lot about how Generation 5 was the actual spark of shift in the series design, but like I've already spent way too fucking long on this. I'm tired lol
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All of this is why I firmly consider HGSS the end of "The Classic Era". Similarly SWSH feels like the end of the era you're describing with Legends Arceus and SV marking yet another design shift towards big open areas where you're encouraged to tackle things at your pace, even if not completely open world like in SV's case.
I've tried on-and-off to come up with my own fancy name for Gens 5-8 but haven't had much luck. I dunno, The Storybook Era? Something like that?
that's a really great post Ant, when I saw your first one, I was able to predict the direction, but the evidence you provided to paint a picture and the thought you put into it is impressive and shows in its quality!!
One comparison that's been bubbling for me, is that if I were to think of Pokemon generations as Kanye albums, I'd say Gens 1/2 are College Dropout, Gen 3 late Registration, and Gen 4 Graduation. In Gen 4, there's a polish to the games that didn't exist beforehand, and a lot of the dialogue has this knowing chuckle that acknowledges this isn't your first rodeo. The roadblocks get increasingly sillier, the ceremonial giving of items and important progressions include a wink, and parts of the game become more streamlined.
Gen 5 is MBDTF, the magnum opus, filled to the brim with content, that subtly introduces the shift in kanye's creative style that would exist in the second half of his career. Then Yeezus, or in Pokemon's case Gen 6, is where there is a more direct and obvious shift in style and artistic direction. And I think both shifts are important.
Another comparison that comes to mind for me, is that of Bionicle. I grew up with Bionicle, and one cool thing about it, the part that made me gravitate to it, was the worldbuilding. There were monthly comic books, and short chapter books that went into extra detail and had many little stories that developed the characters and helped me form an emotional bond with them. Then the line ended, and the one that replaced it, was dumbed down and lost my interest around the time playing with toys started to feel like a social liability. They tried bringing it back in 2015, but the story lacked it's charm and felt every bit as dumbed down as its first replacement.
To me, both the shift to Gen 6 and Bionicle's cancellation represented a larger change in thought in the Entertainment industry, that was mirrored in hollywood and tv in its own way. There's no point in going above and beyond, appealing to serious fans. The lowest common denominator dictates whether or not the product sells, so they are who we should appeal to.
Then you don't get a postgame, and postgame facilities begin to be cut and you are told Well of course, 95% of people stop playing after the story ends, so why would you ever expect GameFreak to go above and beyond? I'm sure most ppl didn't care about the Bionicle lore, but without that, it would have been just another toy line for me. And so with Pokemon, they gradually began cutting the edges, til in Galar there were very little in the way of optional content, because the casual fan will not have curiousity, so what's the point. Who cares if the battle facilities aren't there, when the ppl who care will buy the game anyways? And in S/V, the world feels hollow because they didn't bother to put things in it.
I think some of the lack of success of B/W is slightly overexagerated by Pokemon fans, but I think there were some board meetings where some contractors came in and told them based on market research, making Pokemon fans be able to pet Pikachu meant more to them than an interesting or challenging fight in the Elite 4. Having a Pokedex that introduces too many new faces or carefully curates the old isn't as important as making sure everyone can use Gyarados and Eevee every single game.
I also think they got attached to this idea of making the Pokemon World feel real, like some sort of virtual reality, and Pokemon Go and Legends: Arceus have been the closest they've come to achieving that vision. I like the latter and would probably like the former, but the idea in the abstract repulses me, I don't care about being able to pet Pikachu because Pikachu isn't real, and I'd rather spend time developing real emotional relationships with real animals at that point. I was perfectly fine developing a small attachment to a Pokemon because it looked cool and was fun to fight against other Pokemon in a game, I don't need a magical pet simulator.
One comparison that's been bubbling for me, is that if I were to think of Pokemon generations as Kanye albums, I'd say Gens 1/2 are College Dropout, Gen 3 late Registration, and Gen 4 Graduation. In Gen 4, there's a polish to the games that didn't exist beforehand, and a lot of the dialogue has this knowing chuckle that acknowledges this isn't your first rodeo. The roadblocks get increasingly sillier, the ceremonial giving of items and important progressions include a wink, and parts of the game become more streamlined.
Gen 5 is MBDTF, the magnum opus, filled to the brim with content, that subtly introduces the shift in kanye's creative style that would exist in the second half of his career. Then Yeezus, or in Pokemon's case Gen 6, is where there is a more direct and obvious shift in style and artistic direction. And I think both shifts are important.
Another comparison that comes to mind for me, is that of Bionicle. I grew up with Bionicle, and one cool thing about it, the part that made me gravitate to it, was the worldbuilding. There were monthly comic books, and short chapter books that went into extra detail and had many little stories that developed the characters and helped me form an emotional bond with them. Then the line ended, and the one that replaced it, was dumbed down and lost my interest around the time playing with toys started to feel like a social liability. They tried bringing it back in 2015, but the story lacked it's charm and felt every bit as dumbed down as its first replacement.
To me, both the shift to Gen 6 and Bionicle's cancellation represented a larger change in thought in the Entertainment industry, that was mirrored in hollywood and tv in its own way. There's no point in going above and beyond, appealing to serious fans. The lowest common denominator dictates whether or not the product sells, so they are who we should appeal to.
Then you don't get a postgame, and postgame facilities begin to be cut and you are told Well of course, 95% of people stop playing after the story ends, so why would you ever expect GameFreak to go above and beyond? I'm sure most ppl didn't care about the Bionicle lore, but without that, it would have been just another toy line for me. And so with Pokemon, they gradually began cutting the edges, til in Galar there were very little in the way of optional content, because the casual fan will not have curiousity, so what's the point. Who cares if the battle facilities aren't there, when the ppl who care will buy the game anyways? And in S/V, the world feels hollow because they didn't bother to put things in it.
I think some of the lack of success of B/W is slightly overexagerated by Pokemon fans, but I think there were some board meetings where some contractors came in and told them based on market research, making Pokemon fans be able to pet Pikachu meant more to them than an interesting or challenging fight in the Elite 4. Having a Pokedex that introduces too many new faces or carefully curates the old isn't as important as making sure everyone can use Gyarados and Eevee every single game.
I also think they got attached to this idea of making the Pokemon World feel real, like some sort of virtual reality, and Pokemon Go and Legends: Arceus have been the closest they've come to achieving that vision. I like the latter and would probably like the former, but the idea in the abstract repulses me, I don't care about being able to pet Pikachu because Pikachu isn't real, and I'd rather spend time developing real emotional relationships with real animals at that point. I was perfectly fine developing a small attachment to a Pokemon because it looked cool and was fun to fight against other Pokemon in a game, I don't need a magical pet simulator.
*ORAS Frontier cut*
"They made Gen 4!"
*Dexcut announced*
"They made Gen 4!"
*SV being SV*
"They made Gen 4. They made Gen 4. They made Gen 4-"
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We can agree to disagree on the OoT vs. Platinum thing because it's just circling the drain at this point. But this point I actually agree with and is supported well by your subsequent post (assuming the 80% is an exaggeration obviously).
I made a similar point years ago that Gen 5 seemed to "bridge" the gap between Gen's 1-4 and what we even still see today as far as what I consider "post-modern era" Pokemon. For better or for worse, Gen 5 deserves credit for ushering in that era and kind of still stands on its own to me as a unique generation in the broader context of the franchise.
In some ways, a game like BW2 might have the broadest appeal as a game that appeased the "purists" of the franchise, while still having enough modern flair to not feel outdated or age quicker than games that preceded it. Even as someone who ranks Platinum above it, it's hard to really deny this point and is something I've even come to appreciate about the game quite a bit.
That's it. Gen 10 region will be based on Germany and the plot will mirror the Third Reich history and it will conclude that Pokémon Hitler did nothing wrong.
They already did that in Gen 6
Spent some time browsing r/PokeLeaks recently and, according to one post on there, apparently both Zeraora and Zarude were at one stage planned as anime-only Pokemon.
This was famously also the case with Lugia back in the day, but we are more than two decades on from that and I'm honestly amazed that (if true) anyone at Nintendo still thinks that this would be a viable idea, or that Game Freak would - for lack of a better phrase - get away with it. The concept of a Pokemon you can't actually use at all in the games is without precedent and with good reason - people would hate it. Sure, it explains why Zeraora and Zarude basically don't exist in game canon, but if they weren't in the games at all every Pokemon forum on the Internet would be filled with countless posts from irate fans: "They should let us get [anime mythical] in the games!!!" "Where can you get [anime mythical]??" "How do I catch [anime mythical]??"
I'm not saying that people bitching on here and on Reddit is something TPC gives much worry to (if that were the case, they'd long be out of business) but an anime-only Pokemon just seems so counterintuitive. I mean, even Ash-Greninja didn't stay anime-only for very long, and that right there is a cast-iron example of a Pokemon which has no business being available in the games.
This was famously also the case with Lugia back in the day, but we are more than two decades on from that and I'm honestly amazed that (if true) anyone at Nintendo still thinks that this would be a viable idea, or that Game Freak would - for lack of a better phrase - get away with it. The concept of a Pokemon you can't actually use at all in the games is without precedent and with good reason - people would hate it. Sure, it explains why Zeraora and Zarude basically don't exist in game canon, but if they weren't in the games at all every Pokemon forum on the Internet would be filled with countless posts from irate fans: "They should let us get [anime mythical] in the games!!!" "Where can you get [anime mythical]??" "How do I catch [anime mythical]??"
I'm not saying that people bitching on here and on Reddit is something TPC gives much worry to (if that were the case, they'd long be out of business) but an anime-only Pokemon just seems so counterintuitive. I mean, even Ash-Greninja didn't stay anime-only for very long, and that right there is a cast-iron example of a Pokemon which has no business being available in the games.
I do in fact hate it, but gens 8 and 9 have added precedent for forms that can't be used at all by the players. Feels like full mons being locked out is in the path the games are headed.
Forms are one thing. There have always been forms or variants that weren't accessible to some degree - differently coloured Pokemon, armoured Mewtwo etc. But a whole species seems a little too much.
This is only semi-related but one of my hot takes is Pokemon spinoffs should let you catch/in some way continue to play with any Pokemon in the game, within a reasonable extent.
When I was a kid I got Pokemon Ranger and Diamond pre-owned at GameStop, and I remember hating Ranger because you only use Pokemon for a short time before moving on. I also played Pokemon Rumble Blast as a kid and I was like "I hate that I can't train the Pokemon and keep them, why do I have to ditch them"
I think the only spinoffs I've played that I don't mind is PokePark games or stuff like Unite/Pkmn Channel/Snap because I feel like the purpose is either "woah 3D Pokemon" or Unite is well, a competitive moba lol
I understand where you're coming from, but while the average PokeFan is probably capable of understanding that "SuperBoss Eternatus will be nerfed before I can use it" fairly happily, "Here's a mon that you will never get to use at all" is likely to piss people off enough that GF will probably add it back in a DLC or similar. I mean, there was Eternal Flower Floette in VI, which had no attention paid to it at all, and people are still waiting for that to be released(Legends ZA?). And they gave us the Totems and all Necrozma forms in Gen VII. If GF makes a mon of any significance, I think it would be released eventually, because people will be upset enough if they don't that they'll change their minds.
im a freak because i think legendaries should be uncatchable. i love the concept of pokemon that you cant own, and also the catch legendaries part of the post game is the most annoying unfun dogshit ever, with galar being the only one to provide some fun to it by not forcing you to use your lv 100 false swiper and chug balls at it, instead letting you fight it and have Some Fun
I just don’t really see any upside to creating a Pokémon and not making it usable. Like QuentinQuonce said, forms are one thing, but with an actual species it’s like… you just sat there and designed a whole-ass Pokémon, and you’re not going to let players do the one thing the series is all about — catching and training and bonding with that unique, lovable monster?
And what about spin-offs? Say they make a Pokémon just for the anime. Is it also barred from ever getting a card in the TCG? Being catchable in Pokémon GO? If not, then the inability to use it in the main games becomes all the more glaringly inconsistent and arbitrary. Yet if there were a multimedia embargo on a single Pokémon… what exactly is the benefit of that? Just being able to say they did it? So that its Bulbapedia page can say, “This Pokémon is the only species that has only ever appeared in the anime, with no availability in any other medium.” Well great. Now we have the Pokémon equivalent of a Clembot. Or the Bittercold 2.0. Who gives a shit?
It’s really just a waste of an asset that every corner of the franchise could be making good use of.
That being said, I do at least halfway agree with Bakugames — not that I think Legendaries shouldn’t be catchable, but I am absolutely 4000% done with Legendary encounters that boil down to “False Swipe it to 1 HP and let RNG do the rest.” There’s nothing fun or interesting going on there. I guess it was understandable back in the day, but they’ve proven multiple times that they can think of better ways to make Legendary encounters feel special and engaging, and yet they keep falling back on that same old crutch.
And what about spin-offs? Say they make a Pokémon just for the anime. Is it also barred from ever getting a card in the TCG? Being catchable in Pokémon GO? If not, then the inability to use it in the main games becomes all the more glaringly inconsistent and arbitrary. Yet if there were a multimedia embargo on a single Pokémon… what exactly is the benefit of that? Just being able to say they did it? So that its Bulbapedia page can say, “This Pokémon is the only species that has only ever appeared in the anime, with no availability in any other medium.” Well great. Now we have the Pokémon equivalent of a Clembot. Or the Bittercold 2.0. Who gives a shit?
It’s really just a waste of an asset that every corner of the franchise could be making good use of.
That being said, I do at least halfway agree with Bakugames — not that I think Legendaries shouldn’t be catchable, but I am absolutely 4000% done with Legendary encounters that boil down to “False Swipe it to 1 HP and let RNG do the rest.” There’s nothing fun or interesting going on there. I guess it was understandable back in the day, but they’ve proven multiple times that they can think of better ways to make Legendary encounters feel special and engaging, and yet they keep falling back on that same old crutch.
See there's a bit of nuance here because I think legendaries being uncatchable would work if that legendary were a significant and important character in the game, or if it were only usable in certain circumstances. Unfortunately that's just not how the games do it.
If I stumbled across Mewtwo in Cerulean Cave, had to battle it, and then couldn't catch it, yeah I'd be pissed off - what the hell was the point of that? But if the plot of RGBY was that Mewtwo was a supervillain-esque mon who rampaged across Kanto and had to be fought in the ruins of Saffron City, after which I'd take it down with an almighty battle, yeah I'd feel a little better about not being able to catch it because it'd feel more natural that it's a force of nature I can't tame.
Similarly, if the only time you could use Reshiram/Zekrom in BW was for that one climactic battle with N, then that'd feel like a properly-earned reward and a real one-time "holy shit this is so cool" moment. Instead you get it and are able to use it basically any time you like after that. Eternamax Eternatus being unusable post-the big battle feels appropriate, because it's a massively powered-up state that you don't want to ever see again, and the regular form is powerful enough as it is.
That's basically how the anime has always done things for the most part - legendary Pokemon have powers far beyond even the most powerful regular species, and if they're allied with humans it is at their discretion, not yours. Lugia doesn't need Ash, but Ash sure as hell needs Lugia.
See I'm team "Pokemon should lean into your party being more like a DnD party" so if a legendary is super lore important that actually makes me want to be able to catch it more. And I'm not the only one, look at how many people used Ogerpon in DLC2 for its lore moments with Kieran and how that is important to the plot.
One of my ideal evolutions of the series would be for Pokemon natures to actually be personalities for party members with dynamic changes to how your Pokemon act, kinda like a much more expanded version of the dialogue we see when Pokemon are overleveled and don't obey / high affection.
One of my ideal evolutions of the series would be for Pokemon natures to actually be personalities for party members with dynamic changes to how your Pokemon act, kinda like a much more expanded version of the dialogue we see when Pokemon are overleveled and don't obey / high affection.
Discussion reminded me of this, which in turn reminded me of how a few months ago I made a tier list of how I think various Legendaries were handled in-game in large part based on this criteria. Posting it here because some of the results get pretty wacky, mainly towards the back end:
Of course I'm factoring in narrative value and designs and the like too (hence why Zekrom, Reshiram and Nebby are so high, they have encounters with this issue too but their story usage is good enough to offset it and leave that hiccup as a relatively brief formality), but this is the big overriding theme where relevant.
Some other notes:
-LGPE, HGSS, ORAS and Legends Arceus are the games used to place their respective regions' rosters. The lattermost game is especially crucial: if I were going off DPPt every Sinnoh Legendary would be in Bad except for Giratina who'd be in Meh
-The Forces of Nature's placements are based on LA while Zygarde is going off SM. I actually think SM Zygarde is a really neat and rewarding implementation of a Pokemon of its strength level in a vacuum but the bad optics of being an obvious Pokemon Z leftover prevent me from putting it higher
-Not everyone is ranked, namely some SWSH and SV guys are missing due to lack of familiarity
-Putting the Tapus and Hoenn mascots so low hurts like hell but I gotta be consistent
I am avidly looking forward to the XYZ trio rising to the highest tiers, Xerneas and Yveltal deserved so much better than what the bum-ass pre-Alola Ultra Ball Lottery mechanics or lack thereof gave them (Ho-oh and the Kyurem forms too but who knows when their regions are getting revisited)
I find the D&D comparison interesting in that coming from the DM side, I find parity (and interchangeability) between player and enemy options to be an essential part of how I can keep designing novel encounters. So looking at pokemon in that context, I would likely be placing trainer fights as the climactic boss fights because I could actually make them climactic, while a single legendary is only ever going to be a ball of stats. Such is the result of not having a cutscene budget, I suppose.
That's a fair case, but I have to remind you.
My comparison between OoT and Plat wasn't about what they did to advance the series, even though both did have a major shift (OoT got 3D, Plat had actual STAB for all types instead of Hidden Power, and the Physical/Special Split)
It's all about how they stand out as Classics for the franchise.
Like Wukong said in an earlier post:
At this point, if one were to go back to Plat, there are a lot of later-gen mechanics that they would miss *dearly*.
For example, Nature Mints, Bottle Caps, some move updates, BDSP's HM Pokétch App... But at its core, Platinum was the last game that truly followed the original design, ultimately becoming the best game with that template.
Ant broke down the design shift in Gen 5 in an incredible, incredible post.
And now the comparison is even more clear.
After OoT, the Zelda franchise started to take different approaches to the games. Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are very obvious examples of this.
After Platinum, Pokémon started to focus more on story and other different design choices.
Both games are iconic in their franchises for being a showcase of their classic design. Regardless of one's opinion about the games after them, they're different. Breath of the Wild is a completely different game compared to OoT, and that's fine.
But they are different.
That comparison was never about the games that came before, the evolution of their franchises, how much they were a foundation for the rest of them (I literally said that Platinum and Emerald got better map design than the newer games by a mile), or how much of a technological marvel they were at the time.
It was about the fact that even though they have some dated mechanics that stick out like a sore thumb, they're the gold standard classics that always should be taken into consideration when one thinks about game design in their franchises.
If I were to recommend a great, classic-style Zelda game, I'd pick OoT.
If I were to recommend a great, classic-style Pokémon game, I'd pick Platinum.
It's as simple as that.
No lol it's the opposite, every 3D Zelda for the next 10 years was a direct sequel to OoT and basically a rehash of all the elements it introduced to the series.
Literally read Aonuma's quote:
Literally the director of Zelda (and almost all of these games) ghimself can admit that basically every 3D Zelda after Ocarina of Time was using that format. In fact, even down to things like plot, this is true:
Majora's Mask is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time.
Wind Waker is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time.
Twilight Princess is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time.
Skyward Sword, the last traditional 3D Zelda (note btw that that phrase in general is quite literally "ocarina of time style 3D Zelda" p much) is the only 3D Zelda before BotW that is not literally a sequel to OoT in story significance. 3/4 sequels before BotW were defined by their relation to Ocarina of Time. Majora's Mask is about Child Link after the main quest, Wind Waker is about what happens after Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess is also about what happened after Ocarina of Time!
The devs spent so much time retreading Ocarina of Time that they got bored of it which is why Breath of the Wild exists.
Ocarina of Time defined the mainline series in every way after its release. It was the format for 15 years. To say that "things changed afterwards" shows a complete misunderstanding of the franchise.
If anyone is wondering why I'd go through the effort of spending 2ish hours on a post on this subject, it's because Ocarina of Time is not a game that should be lazily compared to any game you think is good in another series. Ocarina of Time not only defined its own series but literally almost every 3D Action Adventure title still has it as its Grandfather.
This conversation gives me psychic damage not because I care for Ocarina of Time personally as a game, but as a gaming history/development nerd, to see one of the most important games of all-time be compared to a middle entry in another series because "I like it and it's part of an old style and Ocarina of Time is (now, after 15 years of a style it created) part of an old style and I like it" which is so vacant of any actual understanding of what OoT means. SparkNotes ass understanding.
Platinum did not reinvent anything in the industry, let alone JRPGs, let alone Pokemon itself. It did not even define its own series for more than 2 years. Pokemon Platinum did not spark major change in the series, it was the fourth entry into a tired formula that was tropey beyond all belief and it happened to be the second-to-last game (HGSS exists remember!) before the devs finally got bored of the formula.
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Thats what I want them to do, ultimately. i want them to make legendaries that are always significant and important characters, whether it be for lore, direct interactions with the player or something else. If it doesnt talk, has no importance and only exists to be caught, it's not a legendary, its a normal pokemon. if you don't want to make a story or write some lore for all pokemon, demote them. make them normal, breedable pokemon. volcanora being a normal pokemon certainly didn't stop people from viewing it as an epic as fuck encounter.
and if you dont want a game whos lore surrounds a legendary pokemon, simply don't make them. make them be referenced in religious items, drawings etc but never show them, because they don't matter