Unpopular opinions

See I'm team "Pokemon should lean into your party being more like a DnD party" so if a legendary is super lore important that actually makes me want to be able to catch it more. And I'm not the only one, look at how many people used Ogerpon in DLC2 for its lore moments with Kieran and how that is important to the plot.

One of my ideal evolutions of the series would be for Pokemon natures to actually be personalities for party members with dynamic changes to how your Pokemon act, kinda like a much more expanded version of the dialogue we see when Pokemon are overleveled and don't obey / high affection.
 
That being said, I do at least halfway agree with Bakugames — not that I think Legendaries shouldn’t be catchable, but I am absolutely 4000% done with Legendary encounters that boil down to “False Swipe it to 1 HP and let RNG do the rest.” There’s nothing fun or interesting going on there. I guess it was understandable back in the day, but they’ve proven multiple times that they can think of better ways to make Legendary encounters feel special and engaging, and yet they keep falling back on that same old crutch.
You do not understand how much I hate legendary encounters having standard wild Pokemon AI. Unironically the single most immersion-breaking thing in this series for me. There is no compelling reason for the monarchs of space and time to have the same battle skills as a first route Starly. Kyurem-Black is a 700 BST fused titan with Ice and Dragon moves, it shouldn't choose Fusion Bolt against my full health Haxorus and yet it did. It's the same fundamental problem as your crewmates in Star Fox 64 being infamously useless: They've taken what are supposed to be incredibly powerful characters in-universe and dumbed them down to such a ludicrous extent that it reminds you of how you're ultimately interfacing with the very fancy amalgamation of lines of code in a game for 8 year olds.
Discussion reminded me of this, which in turn reminded me of how a few months ago I made a tier list of how I think various Legendaries were handled in-game in large part based on this criteria. Posting it here because some of the results get pretty wacky, mainly towards the back end:
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Of course I'm factoring in narrative value and designs and the like too (hence why Zekrom, Reshiram and Nebby are so high, they have encounters with this issue too but their story usage is good enough to offset it and leave that hiccup as a relatively brief formality), but this is the big overriding theme where relevant.

Some other notes:
-LGPE, HGSS, ORAS and Legends Arceus are the games used to place their respective regions' rosters. The lattermost game is especially crucial: if I were going off DPPt every Sinnoh Legendary would be in Bad except for Giratina who'd be in Meh
-The Forces of Nature's placements are based on LA while Zygarde is going off SM. I actually think SM Zygarde is a really neat and rewarding implementation of a Pokemon of its strength level in a vacuum but the bad optics of being an obvious Pokemon Z leftover prevent me from putting it higher
-Not everyone is ranked, namely some SWSH and SV guys are missing due to lack of familiarity
-Putting the Tapus and Hoenn mascots so low hurts like hell but I gotta be consistent

I am avidly looking forward to the XYZ trio rising to the highest tiers, Xerneas and Yveltal deserved so much better than what the bum-ass pre-Alola Ultra Ball Lottery mechanics or lack thereof gave them (Ho-oh and the Kyurem forms too but who knows when their regions are getting revisited)
 
See I'm team "Pokemon should lean into your party being more like a DnD party" so if a legendary is super lore important that actually makes me want to be able to catch it more. And I'm not the only one, look at how many people used Ogerpon in DLC2 for its lore moments with Kieran and how that is important to the plot.

One of my ideal evolutions of the series would be for Pokemon natures to actually be personalities for party members with dynamic changes to how your Pokemon act, kinda like a much more expanded version of the dialogue we see when Pokemon are overleveled and don't obey / high affection.
I find the D&D comparison interesting in that coming from the DM side, I find parity (and interchangeability) between player and enemy options to be an essential part of how I can keep designing novel encounters. So looking at pokemon in that context, I would likely be placing trainer fights as the climactic boss fights because I could actually make them climactic, while a single legendary is only ever going to be a ball of stats. Such is the result of not having a cutscene budget, I suppose.
 
So I agree with ant that Plat isn't really worth comparing to OoT in terms of tech or gameplay progression.
That's a fair case, but I have to remind you.

My comparison between OoT and Plat wasn't about what they did to advance the series, even though both did have a major shift (OoT got 3D, Plat had actual STAB for all types instead of Hidden Power, and the Physical/Special Split)

It's all about how they stand out as Classics for the franchise.

Like Wukong said in an earlier post:
Platinum to me still represents the quintessential Pokemon journey, in much the same way OoT represents a pure Zelda journey.

At this point, if one were to go back to Plat, there are a lot of later-gen mechanics that they would miss *dearly*.

For example, Nature Mints, Bottle Caps, some move updates, BDSP's HM Pokétch App... But at its core, Platinum was the last game that truly followed the original design, ultimately becoming the best game with that template.

Ant broke down the design shift in Gen 5 in an incredible, incredible post.

Generation 5 started the linear story Pokemon game.

While there are some side routes, the region has significantly more in common with a region like Galar than it does Sinnoh, Hoenn, Kanto or Johto. It's essentially a circle with a line underneath that is used as the tutorial, and you walk around that circle until hitting the top.

This reflects in how the locations are not very interconnected, as became the case with almost every Pokemon game since this region.

In a game like Hoenn or Sinnoh, most towns will have several routes. An example is Mauville, you can go West and it connects to Rustboro, East which is where you go when you get Surf. South is Lilycove, and North is the main story progression.

While some towns aren't this dense, most of them are, with several ways to get in and out from many directions. Unova and future regions instead take a very linear structure of Town -> Route -> Town with them not connecting very much. Where Unova does do this, is usually reserved for connections to the post-game areas.

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This is because, before the Unova games, the regions had a Metroidvania-esque progression where they gave more paths to backtrack as you got more exploration tools, and because they *wanted* you to see obstacles and go back, open up new paths.

While a lot of these are optional, the fact is that Unova and most subsequent games have few connections because the towns are less meant to be hub stops between routes, and more window dressing with core necessary parts on the way to the next story event, or places just to have a Gym Badge.

Because Unova is a story-game first where they want high pacing and to push you down further with repeated boss battles and constantly seeing new places. From Unova and onward, there's an increased focus on having several Rivals because they want to give players many boss battles as a finger snap to pay attention.

Let's compare Unova's first Gym and Melemele Island versus the beginning moments (up to the first gym) of Sinnoh games.

Unova: You start off with the two rival fights, standard fair, of course. But then you get to Accumula Town and have a Rival fight against N. Then you get to the end of the second route and you fight Bianca again. Now you fight Cheren again. Then you fight the Gym.

That's 6 total Major Story Battles.

Melemele Island has your opening fight with Hau of course, then you fight him again, then you fight Trial Captain as a fairly tough fight, then you fight the Trial Captain. That's 5 total Major Story Battles.

In Sinnoh, you fight Barry, then you get to do an entire route. Then you fight Barry one more time, then you take another route and after exploring the cave you fight the Gym.

3 Total Major Story Battles.

But that's not all. Because what's also extremely noticeable is how this pacing continues throughout the games. Alola and Unova are especially guilty of constant boss battles or Team Encounters. In Unova, I've talked several times before about how every single time you leave a town in this game you get stopped for a Team Plasma / Rival encounter, and that should be very clear from just memory. Striation City -> Nimbasa City is an obvious one.

First, you fight Bug Man. Then you get stopped by Bianca at the gate for a battle. Then you get stopped by Cheren in the Desert. Then you have to fight N at Nimbasa City. Then you fight the Gym leader.

Alola and Galar have similar parallels.

I didn't mention it before, but here's Galar's First Gym Run:

Fight Hop.
Fight Hop again.
Fight Hop a Third Time.
Fight Bede in the Cave.
Fight the first Gym Leader.

5

Now, I will say that Galar is not nearly as guilty as Alola/Unova for spamming bossfights, but that's also honestly probably because the game is unfinished lol. The game in general is devoid of many moments At All and we have clear evidence in datamines of cut content. That being said, the game is not really devoid of this practice, as they made three rivals for a reason.

Between the second and third gyms, for instance, you fight Bede and Marnie, then afterwards you fight Hop again. These games are constantly cycling encounters.

Just on a numerical count, I'm lazy so I'm using Nuzlocke Tracker but let's graph out the boss fight total number count by game:

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I used Firered/Heartgold as the remakes because I thought that just made sense.

Asterisks:

Heartgold* I removed the Kanto Gym Leaders, Red and the encounter with your rival at Mt. Moon. I consider this post-game material, but if you do count that as the main game, it's 38.

Ultra Sun* The original number was 54 including the Team Rainbow Rocket storyline, which has like 8 boss fights on its own. I don't consider that the main storyline.

As you can see, on average there is a massive jump from Sinnoh to Unova that stays strong, and even increases from there. Scarlet and Sword are at a decline, but still above Sinnoh by a decent amount. Except Black 2 and White 2. Now, let me talk about that real quick:

EDIT: I fucked up the graph. See, Idk why but when I made the first iteration of it I didn't include B2W2, and then when editing it back in I messed up the order. Swap Pokemon X and Black 2 on the graph for it to be accurate, and that is why I talk about how B2W2 is a low point directly after.

Black 2 and White 2 could be seen as a counter-argument to this graph and my point about bossfights I'm about to get into, but I don't think it goes against my overall point.

Now, why do I focus on bossfights so hard? Because IMO this is a great representation of the shift between Gen 1-4 and Gen 5-8: Gens 1-4 are primarily routes with bossfights as little treats, towns as rewards for making it through a long bit of gameplay without heals. Gen 5 and onward, bossfights are very frequent and the focus on routes is much smaller. The game is mostly about getting through story moments and the routes are just ways to get between Point A and B.

Black 2 and White 2 is still like this, which is really the overall point- I just like how bossfights *generally* show this shift in trend for plot and focus in the games' designs, but I am not going to argue it is a cause-and-effect necessarily. I believe it to be generally true, but I do understand it's not simply cause and effect in of itself.

Anywho, the point on map design. Here is how you move through B2W2:

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Now this is, like Kalos, still basically just a loop where sometimes you go to a side dungeon and then go back to the town there. The only thing that really is a connector in the main storyline is Undella Town, where you back track through, with several towns it actually connects to, which is rare from here on out.

But overall I still think this is 100% a loop. It's also just a very linear map in general. It's something you can't get around in a Unova game- because literally it's a oval.

I touched on BW1's map design earlier, and I wanna note that Galar is very similar it's kinda just two smaller Unovas stacked onto each other. A few side routes not there, sure, but also the Wild Area frankly evens it out in my opinion:

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Alola is similar in that you're mainly going in circles around Islands before finishing a loop and that's the end of the island. Poni Poni is the only one that isn't really like this.

A common critique of a lot of this era of games is that these games feel like Disney parks rather than open adventures, and that started with Unova, frankly.

Kalos may look a bit more complicated, but it's really just still a loop around the region with little interconnectivity outside of Lumiose City; like, the bare minimum.

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It's a more windy loop where sometimes you go to a side area before going back to the main route, but like the only interconnectivity is really Santalune (which doesn't matter until you beat the game) and Lumiose, where you go back several times to fight Lysandre/Get the badge and go to Route 14.

You can use Route 16 to Dendemille but wow, like one option? Crazy. I guess my point is dismantled.

The only map you can argue is semi-similar to this sort of trend is the Johto map because it's small and has a loop in the middle with two outside lines.

But what it lacks for in map connectivity it makes up for how the second half of the region is essentially a neat CYOA as we all know, where you can do gyms out of order to an extent.

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This is another point in this argument where you can use this one example where my point isn't extremely obviously true and go "well guess I'm throwing the entire thing out", but I think we can all implicitly understand that Kanto, Hoenn and Sinnoh have extremely similar map design sensibilities and Unova, Kalos, Alola and Galar all pretty much do as well.

Johto itself is a weird case because of how it's a Kanto DLC and I still think it has more freedom than any game past Sinnoh. Shit, even the fact that the loop connects back so nicely without it taking the *full region* is part of why Crystal Clear works so well.

Now let's look at some other points of Sinnoh's design and specifically presentation:

Pokemon Black and White already essentially had the essentials of how 3D Pokemon would work, compared to Sinnoh which is still basically PNGs with a song in the background.


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Here's some things that both Pokemon Black and Pokemon X's battle scenes have in common:

-The camera moves. It tries to be more dynamic by moving about while waiting to select your move.
-The Pokemon are constantly animated, giving more energy to the scene.
-The camera zooms in on certain attacks, giving more depth to the animation.
Notice how none of that shit is in common with Platinum? Because Platinum was very behind its time and basically felt like a ported up GBA battle system graphically.

Now, I know this may seem "petty" kind of, but this is the kind of thing that to me makes Gen 5 such a 3D Pokemon coded game: Because frankly it basically is one, it's just on the DS.

The Era of Shitting Out Battle Gimmicks:

Pokemon Black and White started a trend in the series where games kept adding random whacky ways to battle, which hadn't been the case since Emerald, essentially.

Here's the new Battle Formats by game. I am not counting Contests, I consider those minigames. Bulbapedia Source:

Full Battle: Gen 1
Double Battle: Gen 3
Multi Battle: Gen 3
Triple Battle: Gen 5
Rotation Battle: Gen 5
Launcher Battle: Gen 5
Horde Battle: Gen 6
Sky Battle: Gen 6
Inverse Battle: Gen 6
Battle Royale: Gen 7
SOS Battle: Gen 7
Max Raid Battle: Gen 8
Tera Raid Battle: Gen 9

Outside of Double Battles and basically just that with 1 player per Pokemon on the field in Gen 3, almost every single new type of battle in the series comes from Gen 5+.

Now I want to get into like, actually Sinnoh and its design philosophy.

Sinnoh is, in my opinion, actually a pretty unintuitive region to navigate, especially as a kid. I know this because when I was a kid I was one of those people that accidentally went out of order in gyms, and spent a lot longer going through side routes because I didn't know what I was doing. We also know the developers between DP and Plat took this into heart because they changed the official Badge order lol.

It doesn't help that, another minor change between games, remember that after Generation 1 all of Johto, Hoenn and Sinnoh get funky with the Route numbers while Unova and beyond restart with Route 1 or have other names.

Sinnoh is a region that has towns connecting into each other and routes splitting off a decent amount. It's very much a part of the game that you are going to be going back to places and going off new splintered areas, backtracking through the region with new tools or just newly available parts of the storyline.

There's only really two times during a Unova playthrough where using Fly is your only way out of a big backtracking segment, which is the way to Relic Castle and back. (btw just realized I forgor to put this on the map thing, apologies! That isn't me trying to be dishonest, I just forgot!)

Meanwhile Sinnoh is gonna take you for a ride all over the fucking place.

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Now, I want to be clear, this is not me necessarily criticizing Sinnoh's region being like this, my issues aren't interconnectivity. But that I think it's very immediately clear that this is absolutely not how Unova+ games are designed.

And it's not just a Sinnoh thing, Hoenn and Kanto similarly take you for a ride:

For the sake of example, I'm gonna have this Kanto route go in dev-order of badges. I'm also gonna use Bulbapedia's guide of getting to Fuschia but you can do whatevs you like ofc. Personally I am Cycling Road pilled:

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And Hoenn:

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Less complex than Kanto and Sinnoh IMO, but overall much more interconnectivity and backtracking through the plot. There's also a lot of optional routes that head back to other places that you can take, but I'm mapping out the main story route. evil tea

In terms of pacing, Gens 1-4 generally focus on having many side routes and core routes that are relatively calm, and usually demanding to get through without expending a lot of heals or backtracking to a Pokemon Center. There's usually less encounters with story relevant characters, but usually with Evil Teams they're much larger segments.

In Gens 5-8, the side characters, plot and evil team is much more directly interwoven to the plot and core design of the region, the region feeling more like straight lines in order to make good setpieces to feed all of this to you. Routes tend to be shorter with more rest stops and HMs are de-emphasized, until they're streamlined as hell.

Most things Unova introduces are true for Gens 5-8, big or small. Hidden Abilities. Permanent TMs. Even stuff like the quick select that was reused in Gen 6, there's way more cohesion. Gen 4 and 5 are not actually very similar of games, anymore than Alola and Sinnoh are!

People group them together because they're both on the same system and we're in the nostalgia cycle where both of these games are supposed to share the crowned spot as "the peak", but in truth Unova starts so much of modern series design philosophy. I feel like the only things people really have is "they both have a lot of post game content" which like, sure I guess? I think the main campaigns matter a lot more to the game design of the series, though. There's just so much that Unova does that is more in line with modern games: B2W2 really is the start of The Giant Fucking Regional Dex.

Stolen from R_N 's old ass post:

Emerald: 202
DP: 151
Platinum: 210
BW: 156
B2W2: 301!!!
Kalos: 457
SM: 302
USUM: 403
Galar: 400

B2W2 really started the Expansion of the dex, adding around 100 before XY crushed that record (becoming the largest). Clearly that was too much so since then we've settled from 300 -> 400, which in my opinion is honestly a pretty good number.

Overall, I think that Unova sparks a change in priority in the design of the series, how the series will go aesthetically (even musically, but I don't have the music brain to dissect that, IMO music Gen 5 and up sounds pretty different than Gen 1 to 4) and that it feels like the devs in this soft-reboot. I dunno. Soft-rebooted the series.

Which means that a lot of the design of old, of which Sinnoh was a part of, was kinda pushed aside. A lot of Sinnoh's legacy is as I said initially, nostalgia, Cynthia memes and some of the Pokemon designs, many of the most popular being evolutions of old Pokemon. It's not that Sinnoh has nothing going for it, but it is not a game that set the stage for what the series would become. It is not an Ocarina of Time at all.

Anywho I could talk a lot about how Generation 5 was the actual spark of shift in the series design, but like I've already spent way too fucking long on this. I'm tired lol
And now the comparison is even more clear.

After OoT, the Zelda franchise started to take different approaches to the games. Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are very obvious examples of this.

After Platinum, Pokémon started to focus more on story and other different design choices.

Both games are iconic in their franchises for being a showcase of their classic design. Regardless of one's opinion about the games after them, they're different. Breath of the Wild is a completely different game compared to OoT, and that's fine.

But they are different.

That comparison was never about the games that came before, the evolution of their franchises, how much they were a foundation for the rest of them (I literally said that Platinum and Emerald got better map design than the newer games by a mile), or how much of a technological marvel they were at the time.
It was about the fact that even though they have some dated mechanics that stick out like a sore thumb, they're the gold standard classics that always should be taken into consideration when one thinks about game design in their franchises.

If I were to recommend a great, classic-style Zelda game, I'd pick OoT.
If I were to recommend a great, classic-style Pokémon game, I'd pick Platinum.

It's as simple as that. :mehowth:
 
After OoT, the Zelda franchise started to take different approaches to the games. Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are very obvious examples of this.

After Platinum, Pokémon started to focus more on story and other different design choices.
No lol it's the opposite, every 3D Zelda for the next 10 years was a direct sequel to OoT and basically a rehash of all the elements it introduced to the series.

Literally read Aonuma's quote:

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Literally the director of Zelda (and almost all of these games) ghimself can admit that basically every 3D Zelda after Ocarina of Time was using that format. In fact, even down to things like plot, this is true:

Majora's Mask is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time.
Wind Waker is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time.
Twilight Princess is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time.

Skyward Sword, the last traditional 3D Zelda (note btw that that phrase in general is quite literally "ocarina of time style 3D Zelda" p much) is the only 3D Zelda before BotW that is not literally a sequel to OoT in story significance. 3/4 sequels before BotW were defined by their relation to Ocarina of Time. Majora's Mask is about Child Link after the main quest, Wind Waker is about what happens after Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess is also about what happened after Ocarina of Time!

The devs spent so much time retreading Ocarina of Time that they got bored of it which is why Breath of the Wild exists.

Ocarina of Time defined the mainline series in every way after its release. It was the format for 15 years. To say that "things changed afterwards" shows a complete misunderstanding of the franchise.

If anyone is wondering why I'd go through the effort of spending 2ish hours on a post on this subject, it's because Ocarina of Time is not a game that should be lazily compared to any game you think is good in another series. Ocarina of Time not only defined its own series but literally almost every 3D Action Adventure title still has it as its Grandfather.

This conversation gives me psychic damage not because I care for Ocarina of Time personally as a game, but as a gaming history/development nerd, to see one of the most important games of all-time be compared to a middle entry in another series because "I like it and it's part of an old style and Ocarina of Time is (now, after 15 years of a style it created) part of an old style and I like it" which is so vacant of any actual understanding of what OoT means. SparkNotes ass understanding.

Platinum did not reinvent anything in the industry, let alone JRPGs, let alone Pokemon itself. It did not even define its own series for more than 2 years. Pokemon Platinum did not spark major change in the series, it was the fourth entry into a tired formula that was tropey beyond all belief and it happened to be the second-to-last game (HGSS exists remember!) before the devs finally got bored of the formula.
 
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See there's a bit of nuance here because I think legendaries being uncatchable would work if that legendary were a significant and important character in the game, or if it were only usable in certain circumstances. Unfortunately that's just not how the games do it.

Thats what I want them to do, ultimately. i want them to make legendaries that are always significant and important characters, whether it be for lore, direct interactions with the player or something else. If it doesnt talk, has no importance and only exists to be caught, it's not a legendary, its a normal pokemon. if you don't want to make a story or write some lore for all pokemon, demote them. make them normal, breedable pokemon. volcanora being a normal pokemon certainly didn't stop people from viewing it as an epic as fuck encounter.

and if you dont want a game whos lore surrounds a legendary pokemon, simply don't make them. make them be referenced in religious items, drawings etc but never show them, because they don't matter
 
and if you dont want a game whos lore surrounds a legendary pokemon, simply don't make them. make them be referenced in religious items, drawings etc but never show them, because they don't matter
I don't agree with you on this subject *as a whole*, I think if we can see a Pokemon in design we should be able to obtain it, but I think the idea of having more alluded to Pokemon like Ho-Oh in Ep 1 of the anime, Kyurem-Complete or just entirely unique Pokemon that we can't see? I think that'd be a cool way to tackle the concept of uncatchable Pokemon.
 
I don't agree with you on this subject *as a whole*, I think if we can see a Pokemon in design we should be able to obtain it, but I think the idea of having more alluded to Pokemon like Ho-Oh in Ep 1 of the anime, Kyurem-Complete or just entirely unique Pokemon that we can't see? I think that'd be a cool way to tackle the concept of uncatchable Pokemon.

I understand being against uncatchable pokemon, i know im being pretty anti-concept with the franchise by this (mostly influenced by other monster catchers who have non-catcheables and also my own preferences in lore etc), but i think more mysterious pokemon we will never know about are extremely fun.

The fandom has an aversion to them, constantly begging for them to be revealed or whatever, but I think sometimes a concept is strongest when its something we'll never discover. The kyurem transformations are more interesting when you know they'll never be able to remake the original dragon again, that this half glued shell is the best we'll ever get. its something lost to time, being brought back by human ego and a pokemons desire/desperation
 
I understand being against uncatchable pokemon, i know im being pretty anti-concept with the franchise by this (mostly influenced by other monster catchers who have non-catcheables and also my own preferences in lore etc), but i think more mysterious pokemon we will never know about are extremely fun.

The fandom has an aversion to them, constantly begging for them to be revealed or whatever, but I think sometimes a concept is strongest when its something we'll never discover. The kyurem transformations are more interesting when you know they'll never be able to remake the original dragon again, that this half glued shell is the best we'll ever get. its something lost to time, being brought back by human ego and a pokemons desire/desperation
Unova ranks pretty low on my "Legends Region Wishlist" (assuming every game has to take place in the past, which ofc they don't have to but that's the general take) for this reason tbh. My analysis of each game's prospects is kinda like this:

Johto
Duh

Galar
I feel like we don't really get to see a lot of the legendary lore since so much of it takes place long ago and we just get like, idk I just think what we got was pretty boring LOL

Hoenn
Maybe we get more on the Draconids? What if we saw the birth of Mega Rayquaza? Also I feel like Hoenn as a region lends itself well to a less human-inhabited place

Paldea
There's a lot of stuff you could take with this region, but I think it's just too new for me to want a real deep dive right now. Still, an Area Zero Expedition team game literally writes itself.

Alola
Alola is a weird region in that it is both full of human landscaping yet also very... not? I can't imagine Alola itself would look very different or be an interesting transformation going back into the past. Plus a lot of the coolest lore kinda just takes place in the game.

Unova
I don't want to see Kyurem's complete form, but I think maybe something based on the Victini movie's clips of the past could be interesting.

Kanto
Please Stop
 
Platinum did not reinvent anything in the industry, let alone JRPGs, let alone Pokemon itself. It did not even define its own series for more than 2 years. Pokemon Platinum did not spark major change in the series, it was the fourth entry into a tired formula that was tropey beyond all belief and it happened to be the second-to-last game (HGSS exists remember!) before the devs finally got bored of the formula.
Honestly Platinum and XY are very similar games in that they have strong fundamentals that keep me from calling them anything below good but can't quite cross over into that next level because they are still too beholden to design choices that hadn't made sense since the Game Boy, mainly in regards to storytelling. "We wanna make our villains more dangerous and sinister than ever before, but this is a Pokemon game so they gotta be a side-gig to the gym challenge and resolved before the actual final boss!" "We got these extremely high concept legendaries who should be towering presences, but this is a Pokemon game so they gotta be Ultra Ball lotteries with wild Pidgey AI!" etc etc

In XY's case this is why even post-teraleak I still mostly don't care that we never got Z: Unless the plan was to do gigantic structural overhauls that no previous third version came close to these issues were baked into the cake. The only common complaint I also care about that would've been realistically fixable was the crummy boss design, and as R_N once said that seems intentional enough that they might've just not bothered.

To put all this another way, I put XY and Platinum on the same level because they are bogged down by lack of focus. The Unova games, SM/USUM and even SV were far more comfortable dumping tropes where needed to get the aesthetic, thematic and mechanical results they were looking for. One of the keys to Legends Arceus' success imo is plucking out the cool mystical/spiritual shit in Sinnoh and actually orienting the game around it while leaving the extraneous junk behind. I used to complain that there weren't enough towns and cities but writing Souring on Sinnoh made me realize "Oh huh wait I don't actually miss a lot of these places because they were Generic Pokemon Settlements for the most part". Is it a coincidence that they chose these regions as the first two settings for Legends games? Given my perspective on DPPt is pretty clearly a minority take yeah most likely, but hey I don't care it works out nicely on my end.
 
"We wanna make our villains more dangerous and sinister than ever before, but this is a Pokemon game so they gotta be a side-gig to the gym challenge and resolved before the actual final boss!"
I will never unsee Lysandre as just being Cyrus 2.0 thanks to this parody, but even more shamefully, that plot in itself became a tired trope for villain motivation


Gen 8/9 tried changing it, but are way too sloppy in execution
 
This conversation gives me psychic damage not because I care for Ocarina of Time personally as a game, but as a gaming history/development nerd, to see one of the most important games of all-time be compared to a middle entry in another series because "I like it and it's part of an old style and Ocarina of Time is (now, after 15 years of a style it created) part of an old style and I like it" which is so vacant of any actual understanding of what OoT means. SparkNotes ass understanding.
You really gotta lighten up a bit, y'know. It ain't that serious.

Tell you what. Wii Sports is the OoT of the Wii era (Wii Sports Resort is BotW because the plane game is open-world).

And with that insightful post, we can all stop derailing the thread and go back to talking about things that are actually relevant.


Types should have exclusive moves, and TMs should be massively nerfed.

Let's be honest, there are way too many examples of moves that should never have been turned into TMs. Close Combat is a very obvious example of one.

The result is that types have been losing their identity. There should be more flavorful moves to help types to stand out more from one another.


Most status effects in this franchise are awfully designed.

Sleep has been banned in Gen 9, and it's not uncommon to see Amoonguss mucking up games in VGC.
The fact of the matter is that Sleep is straight-up unfun to play against. If you get hit with a sleep move, you usually have to hold that and switch out before you become setup food, or click buttons and hope RNG doesn't go out of its way to screw you over.

Freeze is straight up horrible. Frostbite was a major improvement just because it wasn't freeze. That's how bad things are.

This makes it very hard for certain types to stand out.
Poison enjoys moves like Sludge Bomb having a 30% chance of putting their opponents on a timer, playing it to its strength as a defensive type while also giving it a solid STAB option. Meanwhile, Ice is stuck because anything with over 10% freeze chance is instantly a problem.
 
Y'know, I wonder how fucked the meta would be if Sleep could override a status like it already does for Rest

So like if say in Doubles, Opponent's Scald burns one of your mons, but then you potentially can use spore on your own mon to override it so you don't deal with the atk/hp cut. It's stupid, and Rest already is nigh universal, but it potentially means no status is permanent thanks to sleep. Effectively, an even more sleep centralized meta

Also what if poison cut the opponents special attack like burn before Frostbite?
 
You only mention sleep and freeze as bad that is not most status effects because that is only two out of five. Besides hating on them is not even an unpopular opinion.
Focus Blast is supposed to hit 70% of the time, numbers are meaningless.

I just want to defuse the metaphor argument, play nice dammit.
 
On the subject of Pokemon availability, I dislike how Legends Arceus showcases all their new Pokemon. It sounds cool in theory, but in reality it takes an element of discovery away because every new design is shoved in your face instead of well, discovering it yourself. That said some of the designs are among my favorites, although Hisuian Growlithe just randomly looks like shit lol.

After finally catching Celebi in Crystal VC I felt so excited, and it's a good reminder that scarcity makes Pokemon cooler. I'm planning to finally do that DSN hack to get the mythicals in (I tried once and couldn't get it going but I'll try again), and it's exciting because of the potential to use hard-to-find Pokemon. I feel differently about trade Pokemon because they're teased by including their normal forms in game which suck without the last evolution. Also, after finally getting access to another DS for a few hours last week, doing the trades took forever. Not that long for one trade, but doing any real numbers starts becoming time consuming.

As someone who got into the games as an adult, its a point of pride for me that I don't pick my favorite games based on the order I first played them in. With Legendaries tho, I can't lie, after 4-5th game, they just seem less exciting. It's an inherent result of adding more every generation, they start feeling cheaper. My favorites would probably be Gen 1 and 2s, because I like how they aesthetically fit into the plot. I do think the whole Roaming Pokemon works better in theory because it turns into a pain in the ass after the first time you do it, but it's cool in theory.

After playing more Pokemon and seeing plenty of Pokemon use the same moves a little worse, Legendaries do seem less interesting as well. As it turns out, when you give any level 70 Pokemon Psychic it can knock a lot of things out. One thing that I dislike about legendary pokemon being so readily available, is how they naturally dominate competitive and battle facility discourse when they don't play any real role in the game.
 
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I recently went back to Legends Arceus in the hopes of picking up a the Hisuian shinies I had to add to my collection, and promptly ended up putting another 40 hours onto the game over the last month. Compared to SV, I'm just having a lot more fun with this game, between the different ways you have to approach different Pokemon and the checklist that ensures you actually have stuff to do after the main campaign.

Too bad the combat is really poorly thought out. I think most people agree that the combat is not the best aspect of this game, but it's only upon going back that I realized just how bad of a mechanic the style system really is. As in, I think this mechanic doesn't work with Pokemon on a fundamental level.

1. Strong Style is basically pointless.
Even compared to most Pokemon games, Legends Arceus wants you to exclusively use super effective moves thanks to all those "Defeat with X type move" requirements. Once you have high level Pokemon, there is basically zero reason to ever use this. I'm already able to kill most Pokemon in one hit when I want, so the power boost tends to be largely unnecessary.

2. Agile Style is- marginally better.
Agile Style at least had the potential to be useful, as being able to sacrifice PP for speed is a mechanic that could be useful for Pokemon's combat style. You drop something like this in competitive, it would definitely leave a mark; in game, however, there's the small issue that your Pokemon naturally gets faster as you level up. Meaning that Agile Style also becomes useless for a lot of Pokemon at high levels.

3. Why?!
Obviously, I don't think the trade off with either style is really worth losing that PP, but that opportunity cost is actually a big problem. First, the Dex requires you to use certain moves a lot, so having to spam items or go back to camp to rest makes that process considerably more annoying. But more importantly: why in the actual hell does it still consume the extra PP when you miss?! When you consider what the game wants you to do, this is an indescribably stupid decision. A lot of the moves you want to use have low PP and/or lower accuracy, so wasting 2 PP for no benefit feels even more irritating than most usual Pokemon RNG. Have you seen how many times it wants you to use all these moves? Of course I'm going to try doubling up as much as possible! (Also I'm pretty sure the accuracy in this game is bugged since there's been several occasions where I repeatedly missed a 100% move despite not seeing any fog). All this penalty does is further disincentivize you from using the Styles.

I'm still having fun with Legends for the moment, but I'm not sure I'm gonna bother filling up all the combat achievements. It's not a great sign when the biggest reaction I have to give from interacting with this mechanic is "Thank God I don't have to do that anymore!" Trying to use the Styles just- actively makes the game less fun, and I am hoping that ZA ditches this mechanic entirely and chooses some other gimmick. Even if you did fix all the issues, they might end up being too good and become a formality that feels equally tedious to use. I'm simply not convinced there's a way to balance this idea to make it worthwhile without breaking the game.
 
I recently went back to Legends Arceus in the hopes of picking up a the Hisuian shinies I had to add to my collection, and promptly ended up putting another 40 hours onto the game over the last month. Compared to SV, I'm just having a lot more fun with this game, between the different ways you have to approach different Pokemon and the checklist that ensures you actually have stuff to do after the main campaign.

Too bad the combat is really poorly thought out. I think most people agree that the combat is not the best aspect of this game, but it's only upon going back that I realized just how bad of a mechanic the style system really is. As in, I think this mechanic doesn't work with Pokemon on a fundamental level.

1. Strong Style is basically pointless.
Even compared to most Pokemon games, Legends Arceus wants you to exclusively use super effective moves thanks to all those "Defeat with X type move" requirements. Once you have high level Pokemon, there is basically zero reason to ever use this. I'm already able to kill most Pokemon in one hit when I want, so the power boost tends to be largely unnecessary.

2. Agile Style is- marginally better.
Agile Style at least had the potential to be useful, as being able to sacrifice PP for speed is a mechanic that could be useful for Pokemon's combat style. You drop something like this in competitive, it would definitely leave a mark; in game, however, there's the small issue that your Pokemon naturally gets faster as you level up. Meaning that Agile Style also becomes useless for a lot of Pokemon at high levels.

3. Why?!
Obviously, I don't think the trade off with either style is really worth losing that PP, but that opportunity cost is actually a big problem. First, the Dex requires you to use certain moves a lot, so having to spam items or go back to camp to rest makes that process considerably more annoying. But more importantly: why in the actual hell does it still consume the extra PP when you miss?! When you consider what the game wants you to do, this is an indescribably stupid decision. A lot of the moves you want to use have low PP and/or lower accuracy, so wasting 2 PP for no benefit feels even more irritating than most usual Pokemon RNG. Have you seen how many times it wants you to use all these moves? Of course I'm going to try doubling up as much as possible! (Also I'm pretty sure the accuracy in this game is bugged since there's been several occasions where I repeatedly missed a 100% move despite not seeing any fog). All this penalty does is further disincentivize you from using the Styles.

I'm still having fun with Legends for the moment, but I'm not sure I'm gonna bother filling up all the combat achievements. It's not a great sign when the biggest reaction I have to give from interacting with this mechanic is "Thank God I don't have to do that anymore!" Trying to use the Styles just- actively makes the game less fun, and I am hoping that ZA ditches this mechanic entirely and chooses some other gimmick. Even if you did fix all the issues, they might end up being too good and become a formality that feels equally tedious to use. I'm simply not convinced there's a way to balance this idea to make it worthwhile without breaking the game.
See I have a different perspective which is that Agile/Strong Style is super fucking broken and trivializes combat, along with it just being a boring basic ass system

Like okay. It takes PP. So what

I can literally teleport to like 3 camps at any time to fully heal at any time. If I have 20 PP for a move I can do this 10 times for free for that single move.

I see zero reason to not spam these almost every single attack
 
Types should have exclusive moves, and TMs should be massively nerfed.

Let's be honest, there are way too many examples of moves that should never have been turned into TMs. Close Combat is a very obvious example of one.

The result is that types have been losing their identity. There should be more flavorful moves to help types to stand out more from one another.
To add on to this, I wouldn't be surprised if moves like Close Combat or Earthquake received the Return/Scald treatment in future games
 
Types should have exclusive moves, and TMs should be massively nerfed.

Let's be honest, there are way too many examples of moves that should never have been turned into TMs. Close Combat is a very obvious example of one.

The result is that types have been losing their identity. There should be more flavorful moves to help types to stand out more from one another.
Just confirming that by "types" you mean "pokemon with specific types" because moves also have types, but powerful moves being turned into TMs doesn't really have any particular bearing on their type.

I generally agree with the sentiment that the moves turned into TMs should probably be refined with certain powerful options not being used, and I agree that some moves are too widely distributed for what they are (I am a fellow Close Combat hater). I disagree with the idea that moves should have more than a small handful of special, exclusive moves, though.

I think a good TM list would have a mix of the following (only really thinking of attacking moves here, status TMs are a slightly different beast):
  1. Reliable, useful moves that are used to give Pokémon consistent STAB options (also for "adjacent" types, more on that later)
  2. Weaker or more situational moves that have strategic use that may be more widely distributed than the first category
  3. Unorthodox or creative TMs that can expand coverage past the usual typing groups.
The first group is pretty self-explanatory, but for the second, I'm thinking of moves like Draining Kiss, Brick Break, or Icy Wind: weaker moves that have strategic use. I think something like Focus Punch would also be in this group. It's extremely powerful but isn't something that can be spammed; making it hit takes either setup or a read. The last group is a little vague, but what comes to mind for it is one of my favorite machine moves in the series, Gen 8's Power Whip TR. Yeah, it's a Grass move, but that's really just a reference to the series' classic Vine Whip. It gave a powerful physical Grass coverage option to a pretty wide variety of Pokémon, and I think that's really cool. Unfortunately, this last category is dominated by physical attacks; special moves are hard to build for wide/unusual distribution.

There's always going to be some overlap between these groups (Scald is uncomfortably between groups 1 and 2, though there are a couple of interesting learners that like it for group 3 reasons). A TM list also needs to account for use in both single and double battles, and it ought to provide attacking options on both the physical and special side. An in-game consideration is also deliberately making weaker TMs across the types to give coverage options for the mid-game, even if these options get overshadowed by stronger options later on. Game Freak has tried to address this in the last two generations and I think it's kinda fun.

Okay, so I brought up "adjacent" types earlier. That really wasn't great wording. What I'm thinking of is how a lot of Pokémon types end up feeling similar in the moves they learn because of how strictly type often dictates what moves they're "allowed" to have. Direct contact physical attacks sometimes get a little more freely distributed than indirect physical or special moves, since they're based on physical attributes/body type, but type can still restrict who learns what.

  • Normal and Dragon have traditionally been allowed to learn moves of a lot of different types. You don't see as much of the Gen 1 kaiju coverage nowadays on Normal pokes, with their learnsets being more determined by their concept, but there is still the example of the Normal/Dragon Drampa being able to learn attacking moves of every type but Poison.
  • Fire and Electric tend to have narrow type coverage, but maybe this is more a result of so many examples of these types being monotype. Solar Beam was given to Fire types for the sun connection, and Electric types sometimes get light-based attacks like Flash Cannon (RIP to Signal Beam).
  • Water types usually can learn a smattering of potent Ice-type moves, but this doesn't often go the other way for Ice. Specially-focused Ice Pokémon are often at the mercy of their secondary type for coverage, if they have one.
  • Grass and Bug Pokémon often feel extremely same-y because they have a hard time branching out. Both types are pretty likely to get Poison coverage, Grass Pokémon might get some Ground attacks, and Bug often gets Grass moves (and, in earlier Gens, Psychic moves), but these aren't the most useful attacks for hitting the 7 types that resist their STABs.
  • Ground and Rock tend to get very similar coverage sets, with both types usually learning each other's premier moves. More hefty Steel types also get these attacks, though Steel types have some affinity for Electric coverage, too.
  • Flying types have been given the wind-based coverage moves Heat Wave and Icy Wind, though these only really help if you're a special attacker. Physical Flying Pokémon, particularly bird pokes, get the short end of the stick because they lack the appendages to use punching, biting, or kicking moves; OR they don't have the mass/reasonable facility to use head/body/tail attacks, only hoping that their concept lets them learn something useful.
  • Psychic, Ghost, and Dark all overlap in different ways, being mystical and indirect/sneaky types. Psychic and Ghost both have a pretty good chance of being able to learn each other's main attacks, along with Electric and Grass energy attacks. Dark Pokémon often get a little more unique coverage attacks, as a treat.
  • Fairy is a little weird, but their nature theming lends them to learning Grass moves, and their ethereal theming often gives them Psychic moves.

My takeaway from this is that Steel is a real problem for types like Flying, Grass, Bug, Fairy, and Ice to account for if they're not lucky.
Physical attributes or concepts also play a big part in what moves Pokémon can learn, which is why Dragon "coverage" is more liberally distributed to Pokémon in the Monster and Dragon egg groups (and Dragon Pulse to Runerigus). They make type-exclusive moves conceptually abhorrent to me, but maybe that's just me reading things too literally.

Being part of a specific fangame Discord, the main dev had a goal to limit the usual TM distribution from the main series and to make Egg Moves coverage or strategy options first and foremost. He also feels that every Pokémon of a given type defaulting to a group 1 TM is boring (Thunderbolt for special Electrics, as an example). It's a Gen 2 hack, so things are considerably more simple than modern Pokémon, but I respect and to some extent agree with that viewpoint. I think in a lot of cases in modern Pokémon, when Game Freak gives TMs out, the thought process is "Why not?" instead of "Why?", leading to repetitive strategies between Pokémon of the same type, with efficacy being dictated mostly by differences in stats or abilities. That said, I think deliberately preventing a Pokémon from getting a TM it should logically get for balance reasons is pretty corny (Hurricane Zapdos in the past, Dragon Dance Garchomp for a modern example).

Apologies for any weird sentence constriction, I'm not proofreading this, as it was written on my phone with rewrites here and there where i may have missed a word or added a redundant phrase.
 
The last group is a little vague, but what comes to mind for it is one of my favorite machine moves in the series, Gen 8's Power Whip TR. Yeah, it's a Grass move, but that's really just a reference to the series' classic Vine Whip. It gave a powerful physical Grass coverage option to a pretty wide variety of Pokémon, and I think that's really cool. Unfortunately, this last category is dominated by physical attacks; special moves are hard to build for wide/unusual distribution.
See, this is where it gets problematic.

The way I see it, types should have moves and concepts heavily tied to them. For example, Electric with paralysis and speed control in general.

So while I'm fine with say, Thunderbolt being a common coverage TM, I'm not exactly sold on Discharge and maybe even Thunder being available to random Joe Schmos.

In my opinion, if you want big damage, and especially the effects that are tied to that type's identity, you should use that type. For that to happen, you need TM coverage to be limited.

Think of it as the antithesis of the idea that "the best Ice-type is a Water-type with Ice Beam" that we had more prevalently in older gens.

There's no bigger sign that a type is messed up when it's relegated to a coverage move at best.

I have no issues whatsoever with Close Combat. It's an excellent, unique move. I do have an issue with it being a TM and mons like Haxorus having it. It's literally just power creep. Before, if you wanted to use it, you needed a Fighting-type. Now you got a Dragon of all things able to click CC for a gorillion damage and no accuracy issues on two types that could check it otherwise.

That's just hack-tier design. :mehowth:
 
I think the issue is how a lot of these high power moves also have very broad flavor. close combat is probably one of the most generic fighting moves out there, its literally just "throw yourself and punch and bite and KILL!!!!", which of course almost any living being is capable of doing. At least something like play rough has flavor that makes it having a more restricted distribution make sense.

My take? make close combat weaker and replace it with a more fighting focused move with high damage.
 
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