Unpopular opinions

[okispokis]

I recently went back to Legends Arceus in the hopes of picking up a the Hisuian shinies I had to add to my collection, and promptly ended up putting another 40 hours onto the game over the last month. Compared to SV, I'm just having a lot more fun with this game, between the different ways you have to approach different Pokemon and the checklist that ensures you actually have stuff to do after the main campaign.

Too bad the combat is really poorly thought out. I think most people agree that the combat is not the best aspect of this game, but it's only upon going back that I realized just how bad of a mechanic the style system really is. As in, I think this mechanic doesn't work with Pokemon on a fundamental level.

1. Strong Style is basically pointless.
Even compared to most Pokemon games, Legends Arceus wants you to exclusively use super effective moves thanks to all those "Defeat with X type move" requirements. Once you have high level Pokemon, there is basically zero reason to ever use this. I'm already able to kill most Pokemon in one hit when I want, so the power boost tends to be largely unnecessary.

2. Agile Style is- marginally better.
Agile Style at least had the potential to be useful, as being able to sacrifice PP for speed is a mechanic that could be useful for Pokemon's combat style. You drop something like this in competitive, it would definitely leave a mark; in game, however, there's the small issue that your Pokemon naturally gets faster as you level up. Meaning that Agile Style also becomes useless for a lot of Pokemon at high levels.

3. Why?!
Obviously, I don't think the trade off with either style is really worth losing that PP, but that opportunity cost is actually a big problem. First, the Dex requires you to use certain moves a lot, so having to spam items or go back to camp to rest makes that process considerably more annoying. But more importantly: why in the actual hell does it still consume the extra PP when you miss?! When you consider what the game wants you to do, this is an indescribably stupid decision. A lot of the moves you want to use have low PP and/or lower accuracy, so wasting 2 PP for no benefit feels even more irritating than most usual Pokemon RNG. Have you seen how many times it wants you to use all these moves? Of course I'm going to try doubling up as much as possible! (Also I'm pretty sure the accuracy in this game is bugged since there's been several occasions where I repeatedly missed a 100% move despite not seeing any fog). All this penalty does is further disincentivize you from using the Styles.

I'm still having fun with Legends for the moment, but I'm not sure I'm gonna bother filling up all the combat achievements. It's not a great sign when the biggest reaction I have to give from interacting with this mechanic is "Thank God I don't have to do that anymore!" Trying to use the Styles just- actively makes the game less fun, and I am hoping that ZA ditches this mechanic entirely and chooses some other gimmick. Even if you did fix all the issues, they might end up being too good and become a formality that feels equally tedious to use. I'm simply not convinced there's a way to balance this idea to make it worthwhile without breaking the game.

 

[ant4456]

I recently went back to Legends Arceus in the hopes of picking up a the Hisuian shinies I had to add to my collection, and promptly ended up putting another 40 hours onto the game over the last month. Compared to SV, I'm just having a lot more fun with this game, between the different ways you have to approach different Pokemon and the checklist that ensures you actually have stuff to do after the main campaign.

Too bad the combat is really poorly thought out. I think most people agree that the combat is not the best aspect of this game, but it's only upon going back that I realized just how bad of a mechanic the style system really is. As in, I think this mechanic doesn't work with Pokemon on a fundamental level.

1. Strong Style is basically pointless.
Even compared to most Pokemon games, Legends Arceus wants you to exclusively use super effective moves thanks to all those "Defeat with X type move" requirements. Once you have high level Pokemon, there is basically zero reason to ever use this. I'm already able to kill most Pokemon in one hit when I want, so the power boost tends to be largely unnecessary.

2. Agile Style is- marginally better.
Agile Style at least had the potential to be useful, as being able to sacrifice PP for speed is a mechanic that could be useful for Pokemon's combat style. You drop something like this in competitive, it would definitely leave a mark; in game, however, there's the small issue that your Pokemon naturally gets faster as you level up. Meaning that Agile Style also becomes useless for a lot of Pokemon at high levels.

3. Why?!
Obviously, I don't think the trade off with either style is really worth losing that PP, but that opportunity cost is actually a big problem. First, the Dex requires you to use certain moves a lot, so having to spam items or go back to camp to rest makes that process considerably more annoying. But more importantly: why in the actual hell does it still consume the extra PP when you miss?! When you consider what the game wants you to do, this is an indescribably stupid decision. A lot of the moves you want to use have low PP and/or lower accuracy, so wasting 2 PP for no benefit feels even more irritating than most usual Pokemon RNG. Have you seen how many times it wants you to use all these moves? Of course I'm going to try doubling up as much as possible! (Also I'm pretty sure the accuracy in this game is bugged since there's been several occasions where I repeatedly missed a 100% move despite not seeing any fog). All this penalty does is further disincentivize you from using the Styles.

I'm still having fun with Legends for the moment, but I'm not sure I'm gonna bother filling up all the combat achievements. It's not a great sign when the biggest reaction I have to give from interacting with this mechanic is "Thank God I don't have to do that anymore!" Trying to use the Styles just- actively makes the game less fun, and I am hoping that ZA ditches this mechanic entirely and chooses some other gimmick. Even if you did fix all the issues, they might end up being too good and become a formality that feels equally tedious to use. I'm simply not convinced there's a way to balance this idea to make it worthwhile without breaking the game.

See I have a different perspective which is that Agile/Strong Style is super fucking broken and trivializes combat, along with it just being a boring basic ass system

Like okay. It takes PP. So what

I can literally teleport to like 3 camps at any time to fully heal at any time. If I have 20 PP for a move I can do this 10 times for free for that single move.

I see zero reason to not spam these almost every single attack

 

[Lontra Assassina]

Types should have exclusive moves, and TMs should be massively nerfed.

Let's be honest, there are way too many examples of moves that should never have been turned into TMs. Close Combat is a very obvious example of one.

The result is that types have been losing their identity. There should be more flavorful moves to help types to stand out more from one another.

To add on to this, I wouldn't be surprised if moves like Close Combat or Earthquake received the Return/Scald treatment in future games

 

[Sonikku A]

Infernape had it good for too long

 

[AztecCroc]

why in the actual hell does it still consume the extra PP when you miss

Because PP reduction happens before everything else.

 

[CPU]

Types should have exclusive moves, and TMs should be massively nerfed.

Let's be honest, there are way too many examples of moves that should never have been turned into TMs. Close Combat is a very obvious example of one.

The result is that types have been losing their identity. There should be more flavorful moves to help types to stand out more from one another.

Just confirming that by "types" you mean "pokemon with specific types" because moves also have types, but powerful moves being turned into TMs doesn't really have any particular bearing on their type.

I generally agree with the sentiment that the moves turned into TMs should probably be refined with certain powerful options not being used, and I agree that some moves are too widely distributed for what they are (I am a fellow Close Combat hater). I disagree with the idea that moves should have more than a small handful of special, exclusive moves, though.

I think a good TM list would have a mix of the following (only really thinking of attacking moves here, status TMs are a slightly different beast):

1. Reliable, useful moves that are used to give Pokémon consistent STAB options (also for "adjacent" types, more on that later)
2. Weaker or more situational moves that have strategic use that may be more widely distributed than the first category
3. Unorthodox or creative TMs that can expand coverage past the usual typing groups.

The first group is pretty self-explanatory, but for the second, I'm thinking of moves like Draining Kiss, Brick Break, or Icy Wind: weaker moves that have strategic use. I think something like Focus Punch would also be in this group. It's extremely powerful but isn't something that can be spammed; making it hit takes either setup or a read. The last group is a little vague, but what comes to mind for it is one of my favorite machine moves in the series, Gen 8's Power Whip TR. Yeah, it's a Grass move, but that's really just a reference to the series' classic Vine Whip. It gave a powerful physical Grass coverage option to a pretty wide variety of Pokémon, and I think that's really cool. Unfortunately, this last category is dominated by physical attacks; special moves are hard to build for wide/unusual distribution.

There's always going to be some overlap between these groups (Scald is uncomfortably between groups 1 and 2, though there are a couple of interesting learners that like it for group 3 reasons). A TM list also needs to account for use in both single and double battles, and it ought to provide attacking options on both the physical and special side. An in-game consideration is also deliberately making weaker TMs across the types to give coverage options for the mid-game, even if these options get overshadowed by stronger options later on. Game Freak has tried to address this in the last two generations and I think it's kinda fun.

Okay, so I brought up "adjacent" types earlier. That really wasn't great wording. What I'm thinking of is how a lot of Pokémon types end up feeling similar in the moves they learn because of how strictly type often dictates what moves they're "allowed" to have. Direct contact physical attacks sometimes get a little more freely distributed than indirect physical or special moves, since they're based on physical attributes/body type, but type can still restrict who learns what.

Long writeup of stuff i think most people here know already

• Normal and Dragon have traditionally been allowed to learn moves of a lot of different types. You don't see as much of the Gen 1 kaiju coverage nowadays on Normal pokes, with their learnsets being more determined by their concept, but there is still the example of the Normal/Dragon Drampa being able to learn attacking moves of every type but Poison.
• Fire and Electric tend to have narrow type coverage, but maybe this is more a result of so many examples of these types being monotype. Solar Beam was given to Fire types for the sun connection, and Electric types sometimes get light-based attacks like Flash Cannon (RIP to Signal Beam).
• Water types usually can learn a smattering of potent Ice-type moves, but this doesn't often go the other way for Ice. Specially-focused Ice Pokémon are often at the mercy of their secondary type for coverage, if they have one.
• Grass and Bug Pokémon often feel extremely same-y because they have a hard time branching out. Both types are pretty likely to get Poison coverage, Grass Pokémon might get some Ground attacks, and Bug often gets Grass moves (and, in earlier Gens, Psychic moves), but these aren't the most useful attacks for hitting the 7 types that resist their STABs.
• Ground and Rock tend to get very similar coverage sets, with both types usually learning each other's premier moves. More hefty Steel types also get these attacks, though Steel types have some affinity for Electric coverage, too.
• Flying types have been given the wind-based coverage moves Heat Wave and Icy Wind, though these only really help if you're a special attacker. Physical Flying Pokémon, particularly bird pokes, get the short end of the stick because they lack the appendages to use punching, biting, or kicking moves; OR they don't have the mass/reasonable facility to use head/body/tail attacks, only hoping that their concept lets them learn something useful.
• Psychic, Ghost, and Dark all overlap in different ways, being mystical and indirect/sneaky types. Psychic and Ghost both have a pretty good chance of being able to learn each other's main attacks, along with Electric and Grass energy attacks. Dark Pokémon often get a little more unique coverage attacks, as a treat.
• Fairy is a little weird, but their nature theming lends them to learning Grass moves, and their ethereal theming often gives them Psychic moves.

My takeaway from this is that Steel is a real problem for types like Flying, Grass, Bug, Fairy, and Ice to account for if they're not lucky.

Physical attributes or concepts also play a big part in what moves Pokémon can learn, which is why Dragon "coverage" is more liberally distributed to Pokémon in the Monster and Dragon egg groups (and Dragon Pulse to Runerigus). They make type-exclusive moves conceptually abhorrent to me, but maybe that's just me reading things too literally.

Being part of a specific fangame Discord, the main dev had a goal to limit the usual TM distribution from the main series and to make Egg Moves coverage or strategy options first and foremost. He also feels that every Pokémon of a given type defaulting to a group 1 TM is boring (Thunderbolt for special Electrics, as an example). It's a Gen 2 hack, so things are considerably more simple than modern Pokémon, but I respect and to some extent agree with that viewpoint. I think in a lot of cases in modern Pokémon, when Game Freak gives TMs out, the thought process is "Why not?" instead of "Why?", leading to repetitive strategies between Pokémon of the same type, with efficacy being dictated mostly by differences in stats or abilities. That said, I think deliberately preventing a Pokémon from getting a TM it should logically get for balance reasons is pretty corny (Hurricane Zapdos in the past, Dragon Dance Garchomp for a modern example).

Apologies for any weird sentence constriction, I'm not proofreading this, as it was written on my phone with rewrites here and there where i may have missed a word or added a redundant phrase.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The last group is a little vague, but what comes to mind for it is one of my favorite machine moves in the series, Gen 8's Power Whip TR. Yeah, it's a Grass move, but that's really just a reference to the series' classic Vine Whip. It gave a powerful physical Grass coverage option to a pretty wide variety of Pokémon, and I think that's really cool. Unfortunately, this last category is dominated by physical attacks; special moves are hard to build for wide/unusual distribution.

See, this is where it gets problematic.

The way I see it, types should have moves and concepts heavily tied to them. For example, Electric with paralysis and speed control in general.

So while I'm fine with say, Thunderbolt being a common coverage TM, I'm not exactly sold on Discharge and maybe even Thunder being available to random Joe Schmos.

In my opinion, if you want big damage, and especially the effects that are tied to that type's identity, you should use that type. For that to happen, you need TM coverage to be limited.

Think of it as the antithesis of the idea that "the best Ice-type is a Water-type with Ice Beam" that we had more prevalently in older gens.

There's no bigger sign that a type is messed up when it's relegated to a coverage move at best.

I have no issues whatsoever with Close Combat. It's an excellent, unique move. I do have an issue with it being a TM and mons like Haxorus having it. It's literally just power creep. Before, if you wanted to use it, you needed a Fighting-type. Now you got a Dragon of all things able to click CC for a gorillion damage and no accuracy issues on two types that could check it otherwise.

That's just hack-tier design.

 

[Bakugames]

I think the issue is how a lot of these high power moves also have very broad flavor. close combat is probably one of the most generic fighting moves out there, its literally just "throw yourself and punch and bite and KILL!!!!", which of course almost any living being is capable of doing. At least something like play rough has flavor that makes it having a more restricted distribution make sense.

My take? make close combat weaker and replace it with a more fighting focused move with high damage.

 

[Ironmage]

While we're at this, Fire could really use some better synergy with burn. I never really felt Poison was being crowded out by Toxic being everywhere between the accuracy boost when it's used by Poison types and other moves like Toxic Spikes and Venoshock being more restricted, meanwhile there's nothing to pull burn away from the generic status type of Ghost.

 

[Lightchao42]

Spent some time browsing r/PokeLeaks recently and, according to one post on there, apparently both Zeraora and Zarude were at one stage planned as anime-only Pokemon.

Did the post say that they were meant to be anime-"exclusive"? Zeraora and Zarude were obviously made with their movies in mind but that doesn't mean they were never planned to be in the games. The logical explanation to me is that Game Freak left spots open for new Mythicals and let the anime team come up with whatever ideas they wanted.

On the topic, I'm a little surprised that Zeraora and Zarude are the only anime original Mythicals. Volcanion, Magearna, and Marshadow kind of just exist too (and Meltan and Melmetal but those are GO tie-ins), but they were included at the beginning of their respective generations so GF probably had to come up with them from the start.

As for Ash-Greninja, I get the impression that GF only included it in the games out of obligation (because they didn't want an anime-exclusive form) and didn't have a problem dropping it in Gen IX.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Did the post say that they were meant to be anime-"exclusive"? Zeraora and Zarude were obviously made with their movies in mind but that doesn't mean they were never planned to be in the games. The logical explanation to me is that Game Freak left spots open for new Mythicals and let the anime team come up with whatever ideas they wanted.

On the topic, I'm a little surprised that Zeraora and Zarude are the only anime original Mythicals. Volcanion, Magearna, and Marshadow kind of just exist too (and Meltan and Melmetal but those are GO tie-ins), but they were included at the beginning of their respective generations so GF probably had to come up with them from the start.

As for Ash-Greninja, I get the impression that GF only included it in the games out of obligation (because they didn't want an anime-exclusive form) and didn't have a problem dropping it in Gen IX.

The wording I've seen is anime-original, which could be taken to mean "designed specifically for the anime" or simply "appears first in the anime". A lot of leakers took that to mean that it was the same situation as Lugia (i.e. being exclusive to the movie and not in the games at all) so it's not clear - it's also possible the translation is ambiguous.

I'd be surprised if Celebi, at least, wasn't designed specifically for the anime given the planned GS Ball arc. Or Togepi, actually (though that's obviously not a mythical)

 

[Basedwell]

She gives me maternalistic vibes too, what with all the chores she assigns me

“Be a dear and take this medicine to those sick Psyduck on the other side of the region, if you’d please?”

“Be a dear and run this necklace up to my grandma in the next town over, would you?”

“Be a dear and stop that genocidal lunatic and the rampaging antimatter demon from destroying the world, if you wouldn’t mind?”

LOL!! I've been thinking about some stuff related to the last line for awhile.

Towards the end of his part of the plot, Cyrus complains all of his goons are complete idiots. And they are!! They're silly, and above all else, childish. One thing about the first few generations of Pokemon, is that while our character is clearly a child, most people they meet treat them like an adult and are more childish than anything themselves. Hikers, models, swimmers, gamblers, you name it, all throw fits when they lose. Criminals twice our size concede instantly the second they lose a battle. The sole reminder that we're a child is that people constantly give us free things and occasionally lavish praise from our ability as trainer. The only real people who act as authority figures are our mother, gym leaders and Elite 4, alongside a few wise elders who tell you useful things.


Cyrus's co-leaders/assistants, such as Jupiter, are more serious and have intent, specifically they are using Cyrus and team Galactic to reach their own goals. What's interesting about these dynamics, is they show how Cyrus has created his own misery: he surrounded himself with idiots who wouldn't question his intentions and would willingly go along with his malicious schemes, and a few smarter individuals who were just as self-serving as himself. No one who he could treat as an equal and call a friend. No one who could challenge his cynicism about humanity and his self loathing and superiority complex. A natural consequence of needing to be the smartest person in the room.

Cynthia sees this, gauges Cyrus' plan, and his strength, and decides he isn't a threat. It feels like your whole final confrontation with Cyrus is like destiny, there is always something that would have come in Cyrus' way, something of the world that loves it and will stop at nothing to save it. What Cyrus needs to do is to see and be reminded of that love. And what better means to do that than have him be humiliated by the child who's intent on stopping him (also a good learning opportunity for the child). Cynthia is patient with Cyrus, asking him why he feels the way he does, and when he tells her, reveals how pathetic he is. And she says as much.

Were he really a threat, she would have taken him out there or the Distortion World. But that isn't necessary, and we, the child trainer, grow from the experience.


Pokemon's Sense of Mystery and Our Place in its World

As I mentioned earlier, in Pokemon's first few generations, your ostensibly 10 year old character is treated as someone much older. Something else interesting is the sense of mystery in the games. In the first few generations, Pokemon are a relatively new phenomenon, and the point of reference can often include real world examples of animals. You are playing a real and important role in researching them, and the world feels full of mystery. As more games are released, this becomes more and more retconned. There is always some mystery, usually surrounding the Legendary Pokemon and Mythical Pokemon of that generation, but Pokemon feel more and more like a natural part of the world, and are understood.

It gets to the point that Pokemon trainers are their world's professional sports league, (Lance vs Leon ppv price is crazy!! me and all my roommates chipped in), or in Generation 9 the completion of the pokedex is a project of personal growth that many schoolchildren complete, and the Elite 4 more like an analogue to some sort of professional certification than a memorable accomplishment.

A lot of this does make sense. It would be weird if people were still excited by stone evolutions the 9th continent they came up in.

Alongside this, you are treated more and more like a child. I'd say this starts in Gen 5 where despite beating the villains in battle they still kick you of their boat, have to be taken care of in more traditional means, and the transition to 3d where adults look taller and bigger this feels more inevitable. Idk, it's weird, but I feel like the adults are treated more as authority figures atp, and are more competent. Your adventures feel unrealistic in a YA sense where somehow you get involved in some plot, rather than in early generations where someone of any age could encounter the same problems.

That's one thing that L:A was trying to return to, the sense of mystery.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think the issue is how a lot of these high power moves also have very broad flavor. close combat is probably one of the most generic fighting moves out there, its literally just "throw yourself and punch and bite and KILL!!!!", which of course almost any living being is capable of doing. At least something like play rough has flavor that makes it having a more restricted distribution make sense.

My take? make close combat weaker and replace it with a more fighting focused move with high damage.

Even though the flavor is as generic as it gets, the move itself is done in a very unique way, so I don't mind tbh.

I do agree with you though. Types should have something that really define them over other types. Ironically, CC is that for Fighting. Focus Punch too tbh. That was a great TM too.

 

[Basedwell]

Even though the flavor is as generic as it gets, the move itself is done in a very unique way, so I don't mind tbh.

I do agree with you though. Types should have something that really define them over other types. Ironically, CC is that for Fighting. Focus Punch too tbh. That was a great TM too.

I wanna add a more thought-out post to the discussion, but one comment about close-combat: in boss battles and online you may not think about the drawbacks because you're getting value from it (and in boss battles you're more likely to outspeed with EVs honestly) but in game, something like Close Combat is interesting because you definitely feel the weaker defense over repeated battles. Same thing with recoil moves to a smaller extent: you get chipped down over time which is interesting drawback to overcome.

IE in the Platinum postgame, Close Combat on Staraptor wasn't working well because it wasn't getting KOs and I was taking too much damage from it.

it's also a fun drawback when used against you. Underleveled, weak to fighting? Well now your opponent is on an artificial timer.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I wanna add a more thought-out post to the discussion, but one comment about close-combat: in boss battles and online you may not think about the drawbacks because you're getting value from it (and in boss battles you're more likely to outspeed with EVs honestly) but in game, something like Close Combat is interesting because you definitely feel the weaker defense over repeated battles. Same thing with recoil moves to a smaller extent: you get chipped down over time which is interesting drawback to overcome.

IE in the Platinum postgame, Close Combat on Staraptor wasn't working well because it wasn't getting KOs and I was taking too much damage from it.

it's also a fun drawback when used against you. Underleveled, weak to fighting? Well now your opponent is on an artificial timer.

This is a big reason why Torterra is kind of bad.

For example, it'd definitely be able to sweep Bertha clean... if it didn't get KO'd by Wood Hammer's recoil first. This is also why I keep Fly instead of U-Turn on Raptor too, Brave Bird is awesome, but the recoil really is something you don't wanna deal with if the extra power isn't needed.

Even online, CC's drawback is real, it's a lot easier to get revenge killed by priority when you're at -1.

 

[Basedwell]

This is a big reason why Torterra is kind of bad.

lmaooo Torterra was who I was thinking of too. I had benched mine and brought it back for the postgame and it was such a challenge to train. I ran shell bell on it to prolong its existence and tried to time EQs when I didn't need Wood Hammer... I did use Leech Seed but in hindsight I would have run something different.

For example, it'd definitely be able to sweep Bertha clean... if it didn't get KO'd by Wood Hammer's recoil first. This is also why I keep Fly instead of U-Turn on Raptor too, Brave Bird is awesome, but the recoil really is something you don't wanna deal with if the extra power isn't needed.

I don't like using switching moves in-game because most of the time it's not worth the time it takes. I think I grabbed the U-turn tm for Staraptor but never ended up finding a good opportunity to use it. It mainly came in handy for intimidating down Gallade and Garchomp, and closed out Cynthia with Brave Bird.

Even online, CC's drawback is real, it's a lot easier to get revenge killed by priority when you're at -1.

I mainly play ADV so I underestimated that bc I assumed you could switch out as needed since Pursuit is a non-issue on fighting types.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I mainly play ADV so I underestimated that bc I assumed you could switch out as needed since Pursuit is a non-issue on fighting types.

I'm not exactly a great comp player, so anyone more experienced can chime in if they want to, but giving free momentum to your opps by needing to switch because your defenses are cooked isn't a great position to be in.

 

[Esserise]

Cynthia sees this, gauges Cyrus' plan, and his strength, and decides he isn't a threat. It feels like your whole final confrontation with Cyrus is like destiny, there is always something that would have come in Cyrus' way, something of the world that loves it and will stop at nothing to save it. What Cyrus needs to do is to see and be reminded of that love. And what better means to do that than have him be humiliated by the child who's intent on stopping him (also a good learning opportunity for the child). Cynthia is patient with Cyrus, asking him why he feels the way he does, and when he tells her, reveals how pathetic he is. And she says as much.

Were he really a threat, she would have taken him out there or the Distortion World. But that isn't necessary, and we, the child trainer, grow from the experience.

In all seriousness, I think that’s a pretty good read, and I’d even add to it that I think it’s actually rather shrewd for Cynthia to let you, a Trainer whom she clearly recognizes as capable, take on Cyrus first — by doing so, she makes herself, the strongest Trainer in Sinnoh, the last line of defense against a Cyrus whose team has been softened up. There is, after all, no reason why she can’t also battle him in the event that you lose.

The problem, I feel, is mainly with the presentation of the moment. There’s ways you could indicate that this is Cynthia’s plan, giving her a sort of sharp analytical portrayal that would be befitting of a Champion, but the actual sequence in the game just sort of… deflates. Cyrus goes on a rant, and if you even bother to take a moment to talk to Cynthia, she just protests that “That’s no justice at all!”, and then the game just stops as if sitting there saying, “… Well? It’s boss time; you’re gonna walk up and challenge him now, right?”

(I should note that any praise in this post only extends to Platinum, since in DP and BDSP, Cynthia isn’t involved in the climax at all, and is only marginally more excusable than Diantha by virtue of the fact that the Spear Pillar is more out-of-the-way than Geosenge Town, and that Cyrus didn’t publicly announce his plans over the airwaves like Lysandre did — though she definitely knew that Team Galactic were dangerous, given that they bombed a lake.)

 

[ant4456]

That's one thing that L:A was trying to return to, the sense of mystery.

Incoming rant about PLA's writing/ideas since I hate it:

I hate how PLA basically retcons what you believe to be a retcon. It basically tears at the seams of cognitive dissonance.

Where Pokemon games for literally decades have played behind the curtain of "The Pokemon we see in the wild are testing the player to see if they are strong enough to be caught", (canon btw), now we're chucking balls at Pokemon that are scared running away from us. Where Pokemon are both simultaneously supposed to be cute friends, but also have to be savages and bla bla bla.

PLA trying to reverse Pokemon understanding doesn't even make sense within its own game. You talk to NPCs in Jubilife and they talk about how other regions have Pokemon Battles, and yet battles in this region are just "whatever" despite 90% of the characters we see being immigrants anyways.

I think a lot of the mythology of PLA is really fucking boring. Before 2021, I had the idea for "what if the remakes of Gen 4 were based on Arceus instead", and Arceus was plot relevant and everything. Imagine my excitement when they announce a game called Legends Arceus.

I know exactly 0 fucking new shit about Arceus since the game's reveal. At best we get like, confirmation of something we've already inferred in lore communities for a long time, (Arceus itself is just 1 form of the deity, you didn't actually catch God), and I also don't really know anything more about the Creation Trio either, except new forms that don't really reveal anything special.

The moment where we're kicked out of the village should be interesting except I end up feeling zero payoff because the actual conclusion to the story is just mid.

Then you have the big twist which is Volo which yawn fuck nostalgia pandering. Fuck having two Cynthia clones in the same game. I found that shit so exhausting and cringe. Volo is somewhat interesting but I think he'd be significantly cooler if he was just a real original character rather than "how can we sneak the meme/nostalgia pick into being the final boss".

As for the rest of the writing in this game, I find it just annoying and boring. I hate the concept of ancestor characters in the way anime deals with it, always being the same fucking character but slightly different and with a slightly different name. Going through Jubilife/the game is just like "woah that's the character I already know who acts basically the same anyways" and I don't care. I want new ideas. I want a new cast of characters.

PLA is a game that I go between "Wow this is fire" and "Wow this shit's ass" and part of that is I think the storytelling/how it wants to tell this kind of game through its writing/atmosphere is fucking boring, dull, mundane pandery anime bullshit, while the gameplay also has the problem of "This is peak except I'm also basically just doing mobile game tasks for 30 hours"

 

[Basedwell]

Incoming rant about PLA's writing/ideas since I hate it:

I hate how PLA basically retcons what you believe to be a retcon. It basically tears at the seams of cognitive dissonance.

Where Pokemon games for literally decades have played behind the curtain of "The Pokemon we see in the wild are testing the player to see if they are strong enough to be caught", (canon btw), now we're chucking balls at Pokemon that are scared running away from us. Where Pokemon are both simultaneously supposed to be cute friends, but also have to be savages and bla bla bla.

I think it's possible that the relationship between Pokemon has shifted over time. I imagine petilil doesn't have to worry about a human getting scared and hitting them in the head with a large rock in contemporary times. You can also imagine it like smaller, more fearful Pokemon tend to shirk their natural duties.

And some of it was always in the game, some Pokemon Roar you away, Abra teleports, and Rattata has the ability Run Away.

PLA trying to reverse Pokemon understanding doesn't even make sense within its own game. You talk to NPCs in Jubilife and they talk about how other regions have Pokemon Battles, and yet battles in this region are just "whatever" despite 90% of the characters we see being immigrants anyways.

That's why they're immigrants. jk. but people vary from place to place as to level of achievement at a given time. Even in game different regions have different levels of tech.

I think a lot of the mythology of PLA is really fucking boring. Before 2021, I had the idea for "what if the remakes of Gen 4 were based on Arceus instead", and Arceus was plot relevant and everything. Imagine my excitement when they announce a game called Legends Arceus.

I know exactly 0 fucking new shit about Arceus since the game's reveal. At best we get like, confirmation of something we've already inferred in lore communities for a long time, (Arceus itself is just 1 form of the deity, you didn't actually catch God), and I also don't really know anything more about the Creation Trio either, except new forms that don't really reveal anything special.

Mystery >>> Payoff. I don't disagree tho. They were building up to Sinnoh being palkia and dialga the whole time and then it happens and you just accept it and it keeps going. I know it was more cinematic than the older games in a literal sense but I still wasn't impressed. I haven't got Arceus yet, but either way aside from the aesthetic the writing was wtv. It's hard to have any real mystery when mechanics have been fleshed out over 8 generations, and you directly show off every new Pokemon. And when the protagonist has to be the most important character at every single moment, you're even more limited.

and if anything they blundered the Creation Trio.

The moment where we're kicked out of the village should be interesting except I end up feeling zero payoff because the actual conclusion to the story is just mid.

I was immediately like "Oh so I'm just gonna have to forgive them for this, word." Something similar happened to me irl and while I'm able to separate that and the plot of a children's game, it felt weird. Like you're abandoning a child who's done nothing but smile and nod their head and do everything you ask of them to save you and your people (which you beyond benefit from politically). Abandoning without a crumb of evidence, pure fear. And then ofc you're supposed to forgive them because after saving them yet again, they welcome you back in.

Their leader makes you fight him for even that honor, of course. And it's justified because he screwed up before (the only thing that shows is that he has a history of displaying poor judgement!!!).

There is a story you can tell where such things happen, that show the cruelty of society in the Old Days before we had structure and peace that would allow us to pretend we are civilized beings. That story doesn't end where your relationship resumes just as it was beforehand with no implications of shifting power dynamics and the cost of betrayal.

I watched a Charles Dickens movie with my mom where the theme seemed to be Charles should forgive his abusive father who was shaking him down for money in the spirit of family and Christmas, and this read similarly, except instead of misplaced kindness, L:A's was done for thoughtless shock value.

Then you have the big twist which is Volo which yawn fuck nostalgia pandering. Fuck having two Cynthia clones in the same game. I found that shit so exhausting and cringe. Volo is somewhat interesting but I think he'd be significantly cooler if he was just a real original character rather than "how can we sneak the meme/nostalgia pick into being the final boss".

I JUST got to Volo's betrayal. I knew it was coming because I accidentally remembered the name through osmosis from skimming L:A posts. It was meh. Volo had no emotional connection beyond being nice and coming up progressively more and more in the story. I swear I was playing S/M and thought: this really reminds me of Hoodwinked. I forget how, but this was a straight up Hoodwinked twist. I've seen a lot of anime, but this was Hoodwinked through and through.

Also, in the fight, I get through him with a few Pokemon left. I see Giratina, assume I'm gonna capture it, and then bring its health down while intentionally trying not to KO it. I only have 1-2 turns left but figure i'll still catch it, I have God on my side here, I can feel it. Come to find out I ca't catch it, and then die when it has a sliver of health yet. I got so mad and tried again, but didn't make it through volo with enough Pokemon left.

See the thing is, I could beat it twice (which I think I need to) if I could choose which Pokemon I was starting with, or the fight against Volo was normal, or the game gave me any real reason to team build for a fight before now. See the thing about the Volo fight, is that It's like playing on Set mode with Arena trap turn 1. I can win every time, but when each new Pokemon coming in can get a hit in for free, I'm in a weird position where it's hard to come out with a team that can win against similar circumstances!!

As for the rest of the writing in this game, I find it just annoying and boring. I hate the concept of ancestor characters in the way anime deals with it, always being the same fucking character but slightly different and with a slightly different name. Going through Jubilife/the game is just like "woah that's the character I already know who acts basically the same anyways" and I don't care. I want new ideas. I want a new cast of characters.

I didn't quite see that. I liked most of the characters we met. I skimmed dialogue but I thought it was an improvement over most 3d games. Aside from Melli the characters all felt like they exceeded one dimensional bits. Calling the tribes names we're familiar with is embarrassing, but what are you gonna do.

PLA is a game that I go between "Wow this is fire" and "Wow this shit's ass" and part of that is I think the storytelling/how it wants to tell this kind of game through its writing/atmosphere is fucking boring, dull, mundane pandery anime bullshit, while the gameplay also has the problem of "This is peak except I'm also basically just doing mobile game tasks for 30 hours"

Agreed. Every day when I start playing it, I love it. Then, I'll get tired of getting chipped down by Pokemon half my level, wayyy more quickly than I think I should. Taking levels out of damage calcs may have been necessary to change the fighting system and make regions more challenging to come back to, but it can also make it feel like I'm not making any progress. A relevant thing to consider with level scaling that everyone wants. I'm not sure what the solution is there,

Similarly, going through areas where wild Pokemon are super agressive gets old after awhile. I understand I can use stuff to hide myself, but doing that repeatedly is annoying. It just gets old to constantly have to be 1-2 hits away from losing a ton of resources. And the few times I have, it's been because of that or a lack of fluidity in the HM pokemon. Like, flying seems like it could be better than a hang glider, and Sneasler is not fluid at all!!

I see what you're saying about the Mobile Game stuff. I downloaded Pokemon Go last October, and after 5 minutes on the app made an executive decision not to play it: there were like 5 different power systems and something was always telling me I leveled up or accomplised the goal, like a constant stream of dopamine from achieving little goals. It's bad when Duolingo does it and it's bad here. More forgivable in L:A but it does make me question myself.

That said, I love the game, and it's the best shot the 3d era has to crack my top 5 when I post my ranking of all Pokemon games in a month or so lol. i do like it a lot, and think it could be the future of Pokemon, and I'm excited for L:Z. I've only caught 1 shiny, and I can tell I'm on the cusp of catching another one.

I had a sobering realization the other day: if I see a shiny out in the wild, odds are it'll be from some shitty Pokemon like Geodude or Zubat, not an encounter that appears in one area of the map. With the outbreaks, it's feasible I could catch one from a rarer Pokemon just as easily. That's motivating me rn, I can't wait to catch one and post it on my IG.

 

[pokemon4eva]

Incoming rant about PLA's writing/ideas since I hate it:

I hate how PLA basically retcons what you believe to be a retcon. It basically tears at the seams of cognitive dissonance.

Where Pokemon games for literally decades have played behind the curtain of "The Pokemon we see in the wild are testing the player to see if they are strong enough to be caught", (canon btw), now we're chucking balls at Pokemon that are scared running away from us. Where Pokemon are both simultaneously supposed to be cute friends, but also have to be savages and bla bla bla.

PLA trying to reverse Pokemon understanding doesn't even make sense within its own game. You talk to NPCs in Jubilife and they talk about how other regions have Pokemon Battles, and yet battles in this region are just "whatever" despite 90% of the characters we see being immigrants anyways.

PLA isn't really contradicting anything when the Pokedex has been describing their behaviour of some species since the start, like Clefairy and Chansey being very timid, or Mankey/Primeape being very aggressive. Heck, Gold and Silver (and I think some mons in BW) had Pokemon that run away from you, like Teddiursa, Tangela, Delibird, etc.; so the Canalave Library thesis is that, a theory proposed to explain the behaviour of Pokemon, but is not absolute.

PLA using the "humans versus Pokemon" theme so little is a problem, though. It seems at the start and how the game was promoted in trailers that everyone in the village are wary about Pokemon, but you're quickly given sidequests to catch Pokemon for the villagers. They even offer you to take care of your caught mons in a ranch, they didn't commit to this premise whatsoever. Only when not-Rowan kicks you off the village due to paranoia kicking in, but it wasn't well executed.

 

[Yung Dramps]

PLA using the "humans versus Pokemon" theme so little is a problem, though. It seems at the start and how the game was promoted in trailers that everyone in the village are wary about Pokemon, but you're quickly given sidequests to catch Pokemon for the villagers.

-There are literally 3 meaningful, story-significant trainer battles in the entire game
-The recurring threat of the game are rampaging wild miniboss Pokemon
-The aforementioned sidequests are about the villagers slowly learning to trust Pokemon, they task you with these things because they don't yet know how to befriend Pokemon gud

I'm curious what you think needed to be done to make the theme more convincing because it already permeates the game design at the most fundamental levels

 

[pika pal]

I'm not exactly a great comp player, so anyone more experienced can chime in if they want to, but giving free momentum to your opps by needing to switch because your defenses are cooked isn't a great position to be in.

So in theory this would be a balancing aspect, but in practice the shortcoming is that Pursuit was most commonly ran on Proper Dark Types for a variety of reasons (Resist/Immune to the types they could "trap," more limited distribution for a while), with a few rare cases such as Aegislash or Metagross experimenting with it (and not being particularly strong if they didn't get the "switched" power).

Close Combat was relatively safe on Fighting Types since it was strong and reliable, and frequently employed to Wallbreak off STAB (usually not a massive loss losing the user if they got a key KO or 2). The main threat to a CC user is a revenge Kill, but before Gen 8 the main users were often reasonably fast for their tier such as Infernape or Terrakion with their 108 Speed over a then-benchmark of 100. This is also assuming the -1 made the difference in being KO'd or not given a lot of Fighters were pretty Glassy anyway.

CC's availability as a coverage move became a Homogenization problem when it was given to mons that had ways to circumvent this such as Priority (Scizor and Breloom) or for whom it was a straight upgrade over their existing option in something like Superpower (Tapu Bulu, Conkeldurr) or High Jump Kick (Blaziken, Scrafty). Practically every Pokemon that gets CC and runs any amount of Physical Prowess will consider it, because it's significantly less risky/debilitating than the alternatives of its power and in several cases they can exploit it better due to not being (pure) Fighting Types and thus having more tools to synergize with it.

tl;dr Close Combat's design made it strong but risky for a lot of Fighters, but the TM distribution gave it to things for whom many of those risks are mitigated/not applicable.

In all seriousness, I think that’s a pretty good read, and I’d even add to it that I think it’s actually rather shrewd for Cynthia to let you, a Trainer whom she clearly recognizes as capable, take on Cyrus first — by doing so, she makes herself, the strongest Trainer in Sinnoh, the last line of defense against a Cyrus whose team has been softened up. There is, after all, no reason why she can’t also battle him in the event that you lose.

The problem, I feel, is mainly with the presentation of the moment. There’s ways you could indicate that this is Cynthia’s plan, giving her a sort of sharp analytical portrayal that would be befitting of a Champion, but the actual sequence in the game just sort of… deflates. Cyrus goes on a rant, and if you even bother to take a moment to talk to Cynthia, she just protests that “That’s no justice at all!”, and then the game just stops as if sitting there saying, “… Well? It’s boss time; you’re gonna walk up and challenge him now, right?”

(I should note that any praise in this post only extends to Platinum, since in DP and BDSP, Cynthia isn’t involved in the climax at all, and is only marginally more excusable than Diantha by virtue of the fact that the Spear Pillar is more out-of-the-way than Geosenge Town, and that Cyrus didn’t publicly announce his plans over the airwaves like Lysandre did — though she definitely knew that Team Galactic were dangerous, given that they bombed a lake.)

I think the simplest explanation would have been an acknowledgement like Cyrus explicitly wanting to battle you for challenging him at every turn, not even acknowledging Cynthia; it's not "Cyrus is doing something and you have to stop him" like in DP, rather make it "Cyrus's plan is ruined and he's taking it out on you," especially since in this case Giratina was the wrench in his endgame but you're the only thing he can take it out on, so to speak. Some manga depictions sort of takes an approach like this, like Cyrus actually defeating Cynthia at Galactic HQ in Adventures, or DP Adventure having Cyrus not simply removing but trying to defeat the Protagonist since they're antithetical to his whole philosophy (actively making a point to wait for and Battle him with the Red Chained Pokemon rather than initiate the scheme immediately as they appear as in the game), which also feeds into my ongoing impression that the games were basically used as a "first draft" for the other adaptions rather than trying to stand on their own right before Gen 7 (XY and Delta Episode also being massive expansions).

Perhaps also some lip service to the idea that Cynthia trusts you to face Cyrus and it's "your" battle, while also wanting to be ready if Giratina comes back. A couple one-liners would be all it takes to iron out the scenario.

 

[ant4456]

PLA isn't really contradicting anything when the Pokedex has been describing their behaviour of some species since the start, like Clefairy and Chansey being very timid, or Mankey/Primeape being very aggressive. Heck, Gold and Silver (and I think some mons in BW) had Pokemon that run away from you, like Teddiursa, Tangela, Delibird, etc.; so the Canalave Library thesis is that, a theory proposed to explain the behaviour of Pokemon, but is not absolute.

PLA using the "humans versus Pokemon" theme so little is a problem, though. It seems at the start and how the game was promoted in trailers that everyone in the village are wary about Pokemon, but you're quickly given sidequests to catch Pokemon for the villagers. They even offer you to take care of your caught mons in a ranch, they didn't commit to this premise whatsoever. Only when not-Rowan kicks you off the village due to paranoia kicking in, but it wasn't well executed.

Pokemon has always had cognitive dissonance in this way because the original creator, Satoshi Tajiri, was not actually all about this.

I mean we have the whipping Trainer sprites and the Safari Zone where we throw rocks at Pokemon. But putting all of this into a 3D space and having them actually do it removes a lot of the game-y-ness and at times I'm like "wow this feels bad" lol.

When I walk up to like 3 small Pokemon all running away and I throw rocks at them to catch them it feels a lot worse than getting popped up in wild grass, or touching a Pokemon and initiating a battle where I can catch one.

Besides, I feel like you can still see them running/teleporting away as a "test" of sorts, while in PLA a lot of these Pokemon give a ! and then hurriedly try to run away, practically helpless lol.

I mean, I'm not here saying PLA is like evil or something, but I just felt like this game had some of that "What if Pokemon was realistic vibes" which I even saw people praise it for when it was new, with that alongside the "woah Pokemon attack humans edgy" shtick. The game wants to have its cake and eat it too IMO, because the game still has plenty of "wow self-insert you're sooo cool and your Pokemon love youuuu I wish me and my Pikachu had a bond like that" meanwhile I threw rocks at this guy like 20 times

I don't think this really makes the game "worse" but it does bother me lol

I think it's possible that the relationship between Pokemon has shifted over time. I imagine petilil doesn't have to worry about a human getting scared and hitting them in the head with a large rock in contemporary times. You can also imagine it like smaller, more fearful Pokemon tend to shirk their natural duties.

And some of it was always in the game, some Pokemon Roar you away, Abra teleports, and Rattata has the ability Run Away.

That's why they're immigrants. jk. but people vary from place to place as to level of achievement at a given time. Even in game different regions have different levels of tech.

Mystery >>> Payoff. I don't disagree tho. They were building up to Sinnoh being palkia and dialga the whole time and then it happens and you just accept it and it keeps going. I know it was more cinematic than the older games in a literal sense but I still wasn't impressed. I haven't got Arceus yet, but either way aside from the aesthetic the writing was wtv. It's hard to have any real mystery when mechanics have been fleshed out over 8 generations, and you directly show off every new Pokemon. And when the protagonist has to be the most important character at every single moment, you're even more limited.

and if anything they blundered the Creation Trio.


I was immediately like "Oh so I'm just gonna have to forgive them for this, word." Something similar happened to me irl and while I'm able to separate that and the plot of a children's game, it felt weird. Like you're abandoning a child who's done nothing but smile and nod their head and do everything you ask of them to save you and your people (which you beyond benefit from politically). Abandoning without a crumb of evidence, pure fear. And then ofc you're supposed to forgive them because after saving them yet again, they welcome you back in.

Their leader makes you fight him for even that honor, of course. And it's justified because he screwed up before (the only thing that shows is that he has a history of displaying poor judgement!!!).

There is a story you can tell where such things happen, that show the cruelty of society in the Old Days before we had structure and peace that would allow us to pretend we are civilized beings. That story doesn't end where your relationship resumes just as it was beforehand with no implications of shifting power dynamics and the cost of betrayal.

I watched a Charles Dickens movie with my mom where the theme seemed to be Charles should forgive his abusive father who was shaking him down for money in the spirit of family and Christmas, and this read similarly, except instead of misplaced kindness, L:A's was done for thoughtless shock value.

I JUST got to Volo's betrayal. I knew it was coming because I accidentally remembered the name through osmosis from skimming L:A posts. It was meh. Volo had no emotional connection beyond being nice and coming up progressively more and more in the story. I swear I was playing S/M and thought: this really reminds me of Hoodwinked. I forget how, but this was a straight up Hoodwinked twist. I've seen a lot of anime, but this was Hoodwinked through and through.

Also, in the fight, I get through him with a few Pokemon left. I see Giratina, assume I'm gonna capture it, and then bring its health down while intentionally trying not to KO it. I only have 1-2 turns left but figure i'll still catch it, I have God on my side here, I can feel it. Come to find out I ca't catch it, and then die when it has a sliver of health yet. I got so mad and tried again, but didn't make it through volo with enough Pokemon left.

See the thing is, I could beat it twice (which I think I need to) if I could choose which Pokemon I was starting with, or the fight against Volo was normal, or the game gave me any real reason to team build for a fight before now. See the thing about the Volo fight, is that It's like playing on Set mode with Arena trap turn 1. I can win every time, but when each new Pokemon coming in can get a hit in for free, I'm in a weird position where it's hard to come out with a team that can win against similar circumstances!!

I didn't quite see that. I liked most of the characters we met. I skimmed dialogue but I thought it was an improvement over most 3d games. Aside from Melli the characters all felt like they exceeded one dimensional bits. Calling the tribes names we're familiar with is embarrassing, but what are you gonna do.

Agreed. Every day when I start playing it, I love it. Then, I'll get tired of getting chipped down by Pokemon half my level, wayyy more quickly than I think I should. Taking levels out of damage calcs may have been necessary to change the fighting system and make regions more challenging to come back to, but it can also make it feel like I'm not making any progress. A relevant thing to consider with level scaling that everyone wants. I'm not sure what the solution is there,

Similarly, going through areas where wild Pokemon are super agressive gets old after awhile. I understand I can use stuff to hide myself, but doing that repeatedly is annoying. It just gets old to constantly have to be 1-2 hits away from losing a ton of resources. And the few times I have, it's been because of that or a lack of fluidity in the HM pokemon. Like, flying seems like it could be better than a hang glider, and Sneasler is not fluid at all!!

I see what you're saying about the Mobile Game stuff. I downloaded Pokemon Go last October, and after 5 minutes on the app made an executive decision not to play it: there were like 5 different power systems and something was always telling me I leveled up or accomplised the goal, like a constant stream of dopamine from achieving little goals. It's bad when Duolingo does it and it's bad here. More forgivable in L:A but it does make me question myself.

That said, I love the game, and it's the best shot the 3d era has to crack my top 5 when I post my ranking of all Pokemon games in a month or so lol. i do like it a lot, and think it could be the future of Pokemon, and I'm excited for L:Z. I've only caught 1 shiny, and I can tell I'm on the cusp of catching another one.

I had a sobering realization the other day: if I see a shiny out in the wild, odds are it'll be from some shitty Pokemon like Geodude or Zubat, not an encounter that appears in one area of the map. With the outbreaks, it's feasible I could catch one from a rarer Pokemon just as easily. That's motivating me rn, I can't wait to catch one and post it on my IG.

I read this post and I agree with a lot btw, though I think if you haven't engaged much with a lot of the convo around the game and just aren't super well-acquainted with deeper bits of the series I can see why you wouldn't agree on the characters.

But essentially almost every character in the game is an "ancestor" to some character from the prior entries, not even really just limited to Sinnoh. And honestly one thing I've always said to myself is that it's kinda silly that so many characters have their roots in Hisui, it feels like this artificially makes Hisui wayyy more important to Pokemon history than any other region.

Like this:

You mean to fucking tell me that Alder's family came from Hisui?

Why

Like that just doesn't make sense. I mean it can technically be true! But they do this kind of thing like 20 times and I think it kinda cheapens the series a bit.

Wulfric from Kalos, Clay from Unova, Wally from Hoenn, Laventon is Leon/Hop Galar, Irida has been speculated to be May, Karen Johto, and probably a few more.

Some of these are from regions that are close to Sinnoh/Hisui anyways so I don't quite mind as much, Karen/Wally/Irida, but I think the other three are just. Why lol.

Part of why I don't like this is also just, again, I hate this anime trope. As for the characters on their own merits, I find them to be weak. My gold standard is still Alola where the characters have actual arcs, they seem to exist for more than just to serve the player plot, and they have relationships with each other that effect how they act. To me the closest three is Adaman/Irida and Kamado, but ehhhhh. It's just not very important to the game imo. And that's fine but I still don't like it for that

Especially when they like. Talk a lot. Replaying this game is hard because the first like 2 hours of the game is just non-stop yapping from people I don't really care about

 

[pokemon4eva]

-There are literally 3 meaningful, story-significant trainer battles in the entire game
-The recurring threat of the game are rampaging wild miniboss Pokemon
-The aforementioned sidequests are about the villagers slowly learning to trust Pokemon, they task you with these things because they don't yet know how to befriend Pokemon gud

I'm curious what you think needed to be done to make the theme more convincing because it already permeates the game design at the most fundamental levels

The thing is that it happens way too quickly to feel impactful. All I described happens already at the start of the game, and I feel it would be more impactful if the process of gaining trust would've been more gradual. We never really see anyone in the village outright rejecting Pokemon as a whole despite the frenzied Nobles, in fact, you see the Galaxy Team working together with Pokemon since the start (e.g. Abra), like how things should be in the Pokemon world. That said, I'll try to replay this game sometime soon, before the inevitable ZA trailer this Pokemon Day, and see if I'm forgetting sth crucial.