Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[gephicka]

While I agree with your underlying point, I think a few of the arguments you raise are questionable to say the least.

“There was never enough support for a ban” → Yeah, because they never actually tested a middle-ground solution. The only suspect was a full ban vs. no ban, with no serious consideration for Tera Preview, Tera Type Limits, or Tera Blast bans. They ran one suspect early in the generation, saw that 60% of players didn’t vote to remove it, and just never revisited it properly.

Tera Preview has been seriously considered but never brought into tiering action because of how revealing so much information before the game starts hampers the information gathering aspects of the game which are a vital form of skill expression in a given format. Tera Preview essentially promotes less skilled gameplay overall and was determined to not be an effective restriction because of that. Tera Type Limits are honestly just stupid and don't actually address any of the underlying issues of tera because it isn't just 1 tera type on each mon that's powerful, a lot of mons have a variety of tera types and restricting the types one can terastallize into does not change the offensive and defensive utility tera provides unless you were to do something completely assinine like banning all tera types except for bug. If there's an actually interesting way of implementing this that would contribute to the competitiveness of the metagame I'd be happy to hear it but as far as I understand it the idea sounds rediculous and hard to implement. Additionally you claim that there is no serious consideration for a Tera Blast ban when it was literally included on the last tiering survey and has active support from tiering council member Ausma among others. Your argument here addresses flawed solutions that shouldn't be implemented and a measure that was literally included in a tiering survey. The middle ground "solutions" have to actually do a better job of promoting a healthy and skillful metagame in order to be solutions in the first place. Additionally Tera itself has received no proper support for tiering action since the initial test. This point does not make sense nor does it actually critique any of the valid issues one might have with tera.

When every Pokémon in the game has 18 different possible defensive/offensive pivots at all times, you’re not making a “bad read.” You’re being forced into a guessing game where no amount of skill can completely mitigate the risk.
That’s not competitive integrity. That’s just slot machine-tier gameplay.

This is completely disingenuous. Each mon does not have 18 different viable tera types. When you're playing a game you most often only have to account for 1-3 common tera types used on a given mon (at most, a mon will have maybe 4-6 different viable tera types in the meta at one point i.e. water/flying/fairy/ghost/fire/dark/fighting Gambit) A huge part of any metagame is tier knowledge, and a part of that knowledge in Gen 9 is knowing what tera types a mon could viably use and observing your opponent's team structure, revealed items and moves, play style, and the metagame's trends to assume what a given tera type could be. It's absurd to mention that each mon has 18 different tera types (19 actually with stellar) because not every mon is going to actually be a viable user of those tera types.

Additionally, while unexpected tera types can flip the direction of a game, the vast majority of the time you could have accounted for these by better preserving your checks to the given sweeper. There are no sweepers in gen 9 OU who can singlehandedly overcome all of their checks with just one tera type, and if this does happen to you then you could have either played better so that you had more resources in the actually game to check the threat or constructed a better team to more adequately face the metagame.

If you have real arguments please flesh them out more qualitatively, it’s fine to have issues with the uniform ban on action against tera, but you’re literally just spreading misinformation.

 

[Finchinator]

can you affirm whether it is also permanently off the table? I skimmed the post tbh but didn't see it mentioned.

Tera Blast is on the table and likely to be included on future surveys and in future discussions. As for likelihood, does not seem high now, but things can change.

 

[Srn]

I really enjoyed recording the vid, but there are some things I didn't get to and haven't said before, so I'll say it here:

I think it's really lame that we never got more survey data on how people feel about banning tera. It polled poorly once and then just never showed up again, even though it should have been a constant question on surveys just for the sake of data and keeping a pulse on the playerbase. Smogon is not and will never be a perfect democracy nor can I expect perfect transparency, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see tera ban dropped from surveys+no retest+this announcement. I knew my movement was doomed but it did not die an honorable death. We got to the same result quicker, true, but the playerbase should've killed it, not the tier leaders/admins/site ownership.

Either way though, it's dead. No more coping. No more ban protest votes from me. If we do suspect waterpon or kyurem in the future, I'll be voting DNB. I do think both of those mons are traditionally broken, but I could say that of every mon we've suspected. The new generation and new mechanics has shifted the playerbase's standards of what's broken, even if tiering policy has not actually changed, and we have all started to think in terms of snowball potential, metagame health, and overall vibes, not if x mon has sufficient counterplay or strains teambuilding bc tera can work around almost any counterplay and SV teambuilding is a smoking crater.

So where do waterpon and kyurem stand? Poor snowball potential, not broken vibes, and imo healthy for the tier because the worst place this tier can end up in is gliscor or ting-lu spikes BO mirrors. I don't see tera blast or any other pokemon gaining enough traction to be banned (maaaybe roaring moon or dnite with more dd exploration can get there). Tier is what it is.

In summary:

 

[Avira]

Either way though, it's dead. No more coping. No more ban protest votes from me. If we do suspect waterpon or kyurem in the future, I'll be voting DNB. I do think both of those mons are traditionally broken, but I could say that of every mon we've suspected. The new generation and new mechanics has shifted the playerbase's standards of what's broken, even if tiering policy has not actually changed, and we have all started to think in terms of snowball potential, metagame health, and overall vibes, not if x mon has sufficient counterplay or strains teambuilding bc tera can work around almost any counterplay and SV teambuilding is a smoking crater.

So where do waterpon and kyurem stand? Poor snowball potential, not broken vibes, and imo healthy for the tier because the worst place this tier can end up in is gliscor or ting-lu spikes BO mirrors. I don't see tera blast or any other pokemon gaining enough traction to be banned (maaaybe roaring moon or dnite with more dd exploration can get there). Tier is what it is.

In summary:
View attachment 714988

If you think they Kyurem is traditionally broken, you should vote ban on it. Gliscor spikes BO mirrors are not an inevitability. If Kyurem were banned, Gliscor would almost certainly be next since the Gliscor verdict went past 50% Ban even when Kyurem was available, so it's pretty much a given that Gliscor would go with Kyurem gone from OU. And if Gliscor being gone makes Ting-Lu unbearable, we can ban that too. It's very disappointing to see this post from you, Srn, as I thought you had the right idea about what would be good for the meta before, but you just gave up on improving the meta.

 

[Srn]

If you think they Kyurem is traditionally broken, you should vote ban on it. Gliscor spikes BO mirrors are not an inevitability. If Kyurem were banned, Gliscor would almost certainly be next since the Gliscor verdict went past 50% Ban even when Kyurem was available, so it's pretty much a given that Gliscor would go with Kyurem gone from OU. And if Gliscor being gone makes Ting-Lu unbearable, we can ban that too. It's very disappointing to see this post from you, Srn, as I thought you had the right idea about what would be good for the meta before. You just gave up on improving the meta.

My "right idea" about what would be good for the meta was a tera ban LOL you're damn right I gave up on that
So given that, I'm going to be realistic about what will and won't get banned from this point forward and vote accordingly. I really doubt gliscor is going anywhere, and I don't think a waterpon/kyurem ban would improve the meta. If this meta is to improve, it will be from a re-test or drop imo, not a ban.

 

[Avira]

My "right idea" about what would be good for the meta was a tera ban LOL you're damn right I gave up on that
So given that, I'm going to be realistic about what will and won't get banned from this point forward and vote accordingly. I really doubt gliscor is going anywhere, and I don't think a waterpon/kyurem ban would improve the meta. If this meta is to improve, it will be from a re-test or drop imo, not a ban.

What drop do you think would actually improve the meta? I don't think anything that has been previously banned would improve the meta aside from, maybe, Volcarona.

 

[Srn]

What drop do you think would actually improve the meta? I don't think anything that has been previously banned might improve the meta aside from Volcarona.

This is getting pretty off-topic from OU so I won't go back and forth on this, but if we pretend tera blast stays legal, there's two things I'm interested in: Firepon and Electro Shot

Firepon is dummy strong but there's a chance that hazards/prio/zama/pecharunt/dnite/raging bolt etc is enough to keep it in check. Could be very wrong, I was wrong about palafin too, so I'd like to see it explored.

Electro Shot ban+Archaludon retest is more of my submission to the Make-A-Wish foundation because our current tiering policy does not allow us to prioritize banning moves over mons. My hope is that we see greater discussion to adapting tiering policy on this point towards the end of the generation because The Pokemon Company is ramping up powercreep in new ways with overtuned moves like Torch Song, Ceaseless Edge, Rage Fist etc and we should be shifting our policy to stay on top of it all. That aside, I think Archaludon without Electro Shot would be a perfectly balanced pick in the tier to give rain teams some life and fill some teambuilding roles like a gambit/waterpon check that can set rocks and not be passive.

 

[gephicka]

That aside, I think Archaludon without Electro Shot would be a perfectly balanced pick in the tier to give rain teams some life

why would archaludon specifically help rain teams in the hypothetical scenario where electro shot is banned?

 

[Heatranator]

why would archaludon specifically help rain teams in the hypothetical scenario where electro shot is banned?

Helps against Kyurem, Rillaboom, Waterpon and gambit, all of which are major annoyances for rain. It can still spam thunders too, but now it just doesn't have the snowball potential it had with electro shot.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

why would archaludon specifically help rain teams in the hypothetical scenario where electro shot is banned?

The overall utility/bulk it provided to rain teams are paramount to its success at the time. Electro shot just pushed it over the edge, and it's why I found it personally problematic. I feel like Arch without Electro is very much balanced, perhaps top ten mon? But with it, pushes it over the edge in terms of raw utility and dmg it brings.

RE: Ogerpon and Kyu

These two mons are still the core two I have most grievances with. I think removing them from the tier would shape the landscape and allow a lot more borderline mons to become great utility tools; Okidogi for example doesn't appreciate encore from Oger, and doesn't like Kyu's earthpower. But without it, it can sit on tinglu with taunt/BU and take advantage of it massively. I'm no tournament player here, but I feel like there's a great deal of mons capable of keeping Tinglu and so on in check that are simply stifled by the existence of Kyu and Ogerpon respectively.

 

[Moisture99]

Hoping solgaleo is tested before the end of the year, that mon prob has the best chance of anything. It has no physical boosting + metagross offensive profile (bad) + 4mss that would prob make it surprisingly hard to generate progress with. Like what are we doing to corv? gliscor? ting lu? alo? teams with more than one of each? How are you gonna deal with hazards without boots? Crown gets away with it cuz it's a spatker with access to psychic noise and volt switch. Solgaleo is pretty much crown's defensive profile with more longevity to fit on balance which imo should be good for the format

Hear me out but we should also maybe consider retesting gouging fire if tera blast is banned. Imo booster tb fairy + stone edge/eq was its best set back in the day while metagame changes may make it more manageable too. For example, helmet/red card ting lu and especially pecharunt were less prominent/non-existent, while dragonite right now pretty much does what gouging fire did anyway and is 'fine' while also being able to 1v1 goug pretty well itself. Zama is still a top 3 mon at worst and goug would also encourage less life orb in order to make zama counterplay more predictable. Hstack has only gotten better which is obv bad for booster sets (the broken sets) and forcing gliscor to shift to more defensive builds is a good thing in my opinion. Anyway just a thought, solgaleo is the main priority imo.

Maybe arch could be worth looking at even with electro shot since ting lu is now a top 3 mon, dragonite still exists to cteam rain, and ep lando is now standard

 

[pixelpenguin]

I don't think anyone should really be surprised by this. Tera ban simply doesn't have enough support and once it failed to banned by the first suspect, it continued to lose support. It stopped showing up on surveys and people were more focused on individual mons. This announcement really doesn't change anything imo, Tera ban at this point in the gen was never going to happen. Regardless of your opinion for Tera, this is the situation we're in now and I don't disagree with the council for coming out with what everyone knew was happening at this point.

All this aside, tier is by no means dead in the water. Arguably removing the anti Tera aspect of suspects forces more decisive tiering action since there is no more hope for a fresh start with no Tera. I'd like to see another survey now that we know Tera isn't going anywhere to evaluate where tiering action should go. Everyone wants tiering action but all we do is monitor mons for later. Personally I'd like to see Ogerpon Wellspring, Kyurem, or Gliscor looked at; I know all of these mons are contentious but the only way the tier can improve is by tiering action, not just sitting around griping about "this mon is controversial but not overwhelmingly so, so we're not doing anything". If the tier feels like it has problems, why are we just sitting around looking at everything funny?

 

[gephicka]

Maybe arch could be worth looking at even with electro shot since ting lu is now a top 3 mon, dragonite still exists to cteam rain, and ep lando is now standard

Lu is not a consistent arch check because it gets totally destroyed by body press, so it rising in the meta does not really contribute much to stopping arch. Lando is also not as good in the current mets and does not even 2HKO AV arch with uninvested earth power

Archaludon trades too consistently into basically every archtype sans maybe clodsire stall to ever be taken seriously as a healthy reintroduction. Without electro shot is another case but it’s also an irrelevant one since there is no policy justification for banning electro shot

 

[JackRG]

Firepon is dummy strong but there's a chance that hazards/prio/zama/pecharunt/dnite/raging bolt etc is enough to keep it in check. Could be very wrong, I was wrong about palafin too, so I'd like to see it explored.

respectfully, what? If waterpon is controversial, I don't think adding a mon that does its job but better is a very smart idea. Pecharunt can barely take +2 tera water cudgel, so theres no chance it takes +3 tera from firepon, dnite and raging bolt get torn apart by play rough, and Zama already has too many jobs. This is just silly. I actually think a solgaleo or archaludon test could actually be worth trying, however, especially solgaleo since I just don't see how it could be broken.

 

[Lightniong]

“Hey yall know terastilization? Just wanna let you know that WE’RE NOT BANNING IT. EVER. PLEASE STOP DMING ME ABOUT THIS SHIT I’M TIRED OF IT” -Gen 9 OU council (justified crash out) (praying for finch I know bro’s gotten at least 3 death threats as I’m writing this post)

Anyway, after playing Natdex for about a year, I feel like I kinda wanna get back into playing CG OU as I feel like now without the safety of Tera guaranteed, I feel like it’s gonna be a big change from Natdex, plus more creativity cause it’s current Gen OU. I just wanted to know what do you feel is like a comfort pokemon to you thst you spam on every team and makes that team automatically better (I know I can phrase this better i’m just not going to) so I can have a jumping off point for team building. Thanks!

 

[Avira]

I just wanted to know what do you feel is like a comfort pokemon to you thst you spam on every team and makes that team automatically better (I know I can phrase this better i’m just not going to) so I can have a jumping off point for team building. Thanks!

I spam Zamazenta and Ting-Lu on every team due to how many mons in the meta they blanket check. Zama is a phenomenal check to most physical attackers while also having a great speed tier, allowing it to check Adamant Dragonite at +1 without fully investing in Speed, and Ting-Lu just checks so many special attackers so well while punishing switch-ins hard with Ruination and being a good phaser with Whirlwind and Red Card, making it a really strong Spiker.

 

[Moisture99]

More solgaleo propaganda (fax tho):

252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 120-142 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 25.1% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 141-166 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 56.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 158-188 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 190-224 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Tera Water Garganacl: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (68 to uninvested gambit is hilarious)
252 Atk Solgaleo Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 182-216 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO (only move that 2hkos)
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 136-162 (38.6 - 46%) -- 69.8% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 127-151 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (strength sap still works)

This mon gets 1v1ed by 70% of the ou tier lol, actually take a look if you don't believe me

Some of these aren't even 2HKOs with a choice band or tera... you are using low bp moves with no boosting move and an awful offensive typing... this mon actually hits less hard than zamazenta which is crazy because that mon doesn't hit hard at all (for ou standards) without a life orb

You need sunsteel, flare blitz, eq, cc, stone edge, knock, morning sun and psyfangs and you get 4 moves, and even if you had the right moves there r still mons you can't break no matter what

Positives
- Solgaleo blocks parting shot and malignant chain from pecharunt which is something no other viable mon can do except ghold but solg is faster and has better bulk
- Best kyurem check ever unless dd + tera
- Makes iron crown's defensive profile available to slower teams, giving them an easier time checking big balance breakers like kyurem, latios and opposing crown
- Don't even have to change your teams to accommodate this mon it already loses to everything

 

[Avira]

As for any mentions of CM Stored Power, have fun dealing with ting lu

Positives
- Solgaleo blocks parting shot and malignant chain from pecharunt which is something no other viable mon can do
- Best kyurem check ever unless dd + tera
- Makes iron crown's defensive profile available to slower teams, giving them an easier time checking big balance breakers like kyurem, latios and opposing crown
- Don't even have to change your teams to accommodate this mon it already loses to everything

Repeat after me, Solgaleo does not have Stored Power. It didn't have Stored Power in Gens 7 and 8 and still doesn't in Gen 9.

There are many positives to a Solgaleo drop as you indicated, Moisture99, but I'm just afraid of its ability to lure nearly everything with its strong Attack stat and workable Special Attack stat, which will give it a lot of set variety.

Solgaleo is what I would consider the healthiest Uber-drop should it get dropped. There was no way Palafin would be anywhere near healthy as long as Tera is legal since it's just a ridiculous Tera abuser, and the likeshop OU suspect would've been better spent on a Solgaleo suspect test.

 

[Moisture99]

Repeat after me, Solgaleo does not have Stored Power. It didn't have Stored Power in Gens 7 and 8 and still doesn't in Gen 9.

There are many positives to a Solgaleo drop as you indicated, Moisture99, but I'm just afraid of its ability to lure nearly everything with its strong Attack stat and working Special Attack stat, which will give it a lot of set variety.

Solgaleo is what I would consider the healthiest Uber-drop should it get dropped. There was no way Palafin would be anywhere near healthy as long as Tera is legal, and the likeshop would've been better spent on a Solgaleo test.

bro doesn't even get stored power is crazy

ngl i don't see how it lures really anything considering there are mons that are at worst barely 2hkoed if you get predicted with the right move (4atk zama does this too and isn't broken), and that there are also mons that will beat/at least scout it regardless of the moveset such as alomomola and garg

if you want to use the spatk stat just use iron crown at that point, otherwise ur working with a 113 spatk flash cannon? focus blast? very sad stuff, now you lose even harder to ting lu

 

[RainWaiv]

More solgaleo propaganda (fax tho):

252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 120-142 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 25.1% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 141-166 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 56.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 158-188 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 190-224 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Tera Water Garganacl: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (68 to uninvested gambit is hilarious)
252 Atk Solgaleo Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 182-216 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO (only move that 2hkos)
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 136-162 (38.6 - 46%) -- 69.8% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 127-151 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (strength sap still works)

This mon gets 1v1ed by 70% of the ou tier lol, actually take a look if you don't believe me

Some of these aren't even 2HKOs with a choice band or tera... you are using low bp moves with no boosting move and an awful offensive typing... this mon actually hits less hard than zamazenta which is crazy because that mon doesn't hit hard at all (for ou standards) without a life orb

You need sunsteel, flare blitz, eq, cc, stone edge, knock, morning sun and psyfangs and you get 4 moves, and even if you had the right moves there r still mons you can't break no matter what

Positives
- Solgaleo blocks parting shot and malignant chain from pecharunt which is something no other viable mon can do
- Best kyurem check ever unless dd + tera
- Makes iron crown's defensive profile available to slower teams, giving them an easier time checking big balance breakers like kyurem, latios and opposing crown
- Don't even have to change your teams to accommodate this mon it already loses to everything

nice, now check the calcs going into solgaleo

 

[Rekka's Backend]

This mon gets 1v1ed by 70% of the ou tier lol, actually take a look if you don't believe me

I get what you're trying to allude to here, but I have to ask if it loses to every mon ever and manages to check mons like Kyu (something Crown already does nicely without being 'dead' weight) then what does it bring to the tier that existing mons already do? All I'd be seeing is a girthy stat stick that manages to do a few jobs well that a similar mon already does, with the capacity for the mon to be optimized and given an annoying as hell set that manages to let it never die really

I'd rather drop Arch, who I think could bring genuine benefit to the tier. Iron Lion doesn't really seem that appealing to me for multiple reasons.

 

[pixelpenguin]

Anyway, after playing Natdex for about a year, I feel like I kinda wanna get back into playing CG OU as I feel like now without the safety of Tera guaranteed, I feel like it’s gonna be a big change from Natdex, plus more creativity cause it’s current Gen OU. I just wanted to know what do you feel is like a comfort pokemon to you thst you spam on every team and makes that team automatically better (I know I can phrase this better i’m just not going to) so I can have a jumping off point for team building. Thanks!

Samurott is my favorite mon for that comfort slap it on a team vibe. You can get so much out of it, I know when I put it on a team it's always going to do something. Let me also share my propaganda: stop running Jolly Samu, Adamant is right there and you don't outspeed anything important with Jolly anyway (Gholdengo schmoldengo). A neat interaction is Adamant letting you eliminate Wellspring coming in with Ceaseless+Sucker.

 

[Insolence]

I get what you're trying to allude to here, but I have to ask if it loses to every mon ever and manages to check mons like Kyu (something Crown already does nicely without being 'dead' weight) then what does it bring to the tier that existing mons already do? All I'd be seeing is a girthy stat stick that manages to do a few jobs well that a similar mon already does, with the capacity for the mon to be optimized and given an annoying as hell set that manages to let it never die really

I'd rather drop Arch, who I think could bring genuine benefit to the tier. Iron Lion doesn't really seem that appealing to me for multiple reasons.

It provides a variety of utility options like Knock, Roar, Trick Room, and Teleport, on top of having reliable recovery from Morning Sun (Crown has none). This allows slower teams to better incorporate it as a defensive piece.

 

[FayaWizard]

Let's not get caught up in discussing an Uber pokemon that has had next to no support on the surveys.

With Tera Blast remaining as the only viable path to restrict Tera in some way, how do we feel about the move? It underscored on the last survey, but we've recently seen the rise of Tera Blast usage on threats like Kingambit and newly Roaring Moon, as a way to circumvent their traditional Fighting-type checks. Have these recent developments change how you feel?

Personal Feelings

Personally, I think the bulky DDance Roaring Moon set is likely to fade away with time, and my opinion remains the same on Tera Blast as a whole: a balanced move that is heavily limited by the Tera investment required to make it worthwhile.

 

[apoteosis]

Solgaleo knows future sight + teleport. Also knows knock off and has recovery (morning Sun).
It also has base 113 spa (3 more points than slowking, wow), and good overall bulk.
All of which makes it a good slow future port user, which is nice for balance I guess. Overall it could be a great pivot, considering also it is immune to pecha’s parting shot and malignant chain
Definitely we should get the iron lion a chance. A quick drop, perhaps? I predict it will get straight to UU