Unpopular opinions

Also ok sorry for double posting but its a completely different topic that's been on my mind: Yknow how when people bring up the azure flute, the first joke is "lol the azure flute was too complex but they made the regi puzzles?? is gamefreak stupid??"

Maybe its a topic people talked about and I missed it, but why do people act like thats some sort of epic gotcha and not a pretty understandable reaction to feedback? I know that the inclusion of braille in the game guide was not universal, and with the fact not all kids would even keep game guides around, the number of calls for help/confusion over the puzzle would be pretty large across most places. it wouldnt surprise me if they were like "ok guys, next time if we make a puzzle like this the information NEEDS to be in the game itself" and avoided similar puzzles in general.

hell, we only returned to pretty insane convoluted puzzles and evo methods in the recent 2 gens, and I think its influenced by the speed of leaks and information research: sure runerigius evo method is stupid as hell, but its also going to be revealed in 1-3 or so days regardless, so it doesnt matter. and we can talk about kids still playing the game, but all kids i know will google shit and check wikis (before even facing a challenge really, they'll get a pokemon and immediately check if it evolves and how), they aren't that hopeless stupid
Braille was not the problem with the Regi puzzles. The intended solution to those puzzles was:
Explore the 3 routes of 1-way water currents THOROUGHLY. You're looking for a single 3-wide gap that's not visible on your screen when you step into the water.
Dive(you should have your dive mon already with you tbh)
Translate the braille to tell you to surface on a specific tile. If you are off by one, this won't work and you won't know why.
Translate the braille telling you to use Dig.
Leave, fly to Pacificlog Town, get a mon that knows Dig, redo everything up until this point.
Use Dig.
Translate the braille talking about Relicanth and Wailord.
Leave, go catch both of those mons.
Relicanth is a 5% encounter rate in the underwater portion of exactly 2 routes and IIRC doesn't show up in any trainer teams; Wailord is at least reasonable.
Return the the Sealed Chamber AGAIN. Did you remember Relicanth, Wailord, a mon with Dive, and a mon with Dig? Forget any of them, leave and come back again.
Correctly interpret the braille telling you that party order is the solution.
Translate the flavor text braille about a sealed powerful mon.
Leave.
Wander the world with no indication of anything until you stumble on an out-of-the-way area you've been before that has a new doorway.
Translate the braille again and get told about something weird you need to do.
Leave, return with the correct mon.
Follow the instructions; be wrong
Try again and maybe get it right?
Spam balls against the Legendary.

I get what they were going for, and I think it's preferable to the "the Legend is just sitting in this cave" approach of Gen 1, but it's a puzzle that's random and frustrating. No step follows from any previous one and you'll be repeating the same actions several times. And then the actual Legendary locations are a pain to find. With a guide, this sort of thing is easy, without a guide most kids are going to assume they did something wrong, broke it, and give up.
 
The braille alphabet does actually appear in-game, though I'm pretty sure it doesn't appear until after the sign telling you to resurface, and it's also not obvious that what you're looking at is even an ordered alphabet to begin with.
 
View attachment 715555

Thoughts on this?

Because it feels like a hugantic, ginormic reach but I'd genuinely be happy to be corrected
I am mildly skeptical of this take when we just got an entire terabyte of internal documents and prototypes leaked and none of them even hint at this supposed pattern. It's a fun idea but kinda falls apart when you look at the likes of Camerupt, Rayquaza, or Manectric - not to mention that the body plan of practically anything bipedal can form an X shape by virtue of having limbs.

The bigger crime for the Azure flute event was how dogshit Arceus' battle theme was. HGSS event that literally was inaccessible for a while barely salvaged it by making it used more as cutscene music, but holy shit as a battle theme it's bad

I don't even disagree insofar as it being a bad battle theme, but I think it does a good job of setting the tone for "you are now fighting the creator god". It should be off-putting and weird, I feel like. Arceus is my least favorite Pokemon just because I don't think Pokemon should have a designated creator god (and it's also why I'm infinitely grateful the more fleshed-out mythos from the Teraleak didn't make the cut, but that's a separate discussion altogether), but I think Arceus' theme does an excellent job of setting the tone, even if it's not very good as a conventional battle theme.
 
It's kinda like Ghetsis' battle theme: as a cutscene setpiece I like it, but as a battle theme it's WAY too repetitive with buildup taking 5 years, which compared to the rest of BWs battle themes stands out...pretty badly
 
Part of it I feel is due to remakes softening some things, but even in OG Kanto I feel its themes for Urbanism and environmentalism were poorly conveyed. It's an urban area, but it barely acknowledges the experiences there, and is mostly unrelated to the game's straightforward objective (get badges while stopping a yakuza/gangster group)
I don’t think that Kanto’s themes of urbanism vs environmentalism were poorly conveyed. Pokemon is partly based on the tension between older hobbies of bug collecting in the countryside against the more urbanized world of the 1990’s where children were spending less time in a natural environment. Kanto is built around an urban core of Saffron, Celadon, and Vermillion, which is off-limits at first. The player literally travels in a big loop that weaves around the core of Saffron City, traversing through natural cave systems and multiple built underground paths. The Pokemon of the most far-flung or rural parts of Kanto are the ones that most resemble wild animals from our world: Pidgey, Caterpie, Beedrill, Sandshrew, Ekans, etc. However, the core of the region is associated with fewer varieties of Pokemon. The ones that relate to pollution and urbanization, you mention Koffing and Grimer, notably are obtainable later in the game in a place that was destroyed due to a moment when science and technology being used to exploit Pokemon. There’s a contrast between Pikachu and Magnemite for where they’re encountered in the region initially, and lots more to be traced. Geography defining the Pokemon world isn’t new either: Hoenn is split up into geographic areas that can only be fully traversed by gaining the tools to cooperate with Pokemon in order to explore this overworld with techniques like Rock Smash and Surf. Hoenn is also about the divide between the land and the sea, but also how these coexist with each other. The region is shaped like a yin-yang symbol. Sinnoh is split by Mt Coronet, which bars the player from passing over the midline of the region twice before they’ve even got three badges.

Kanto’s themes of genetic engineering and the conflicts and harmonies between science and nature are present throughout the region. Pallet Town, Pewter City, and Cinnabar Island all have scientific institutions that are the defining features of their towns. Fossil Pokemon, Ditto, Eevee, Mewtwo, and Mew are deeply entangled with the tension between the natural world and the emerging ability of people to manipulate life. Yes, the Ditto and Mew connection is often a result of fandom over reading, but there’s an explicit theme that connects many of these Pokemon together just beyond the “all Pokemon are connected” theme. Whether or not there’s a direct connection between Ditto and Mew beyond linked locations and colors and Transform, let alone fanon trying to make it explicit, there’s a very unsubtle theme of genetics that many of these Pokemon are involved in.

These themes of environmentalism vs urbanization are why Team Rocket is villainous, as they exploit Pokemon in a world that is up front about how people and Pokemon become their best selves by coexisting and cooperating. It’s not coincidental that Team Rocket have presences in places like Mt Moon by stealing positive scientific discoveries, Pokemon Tower where they disrespect the lives of Pokemon, Celadon City being an urban hub and shopping district, and Saffron City and the takeover of a huge beneficent tech company. Team Rocket are less concentrated in the periphery, where they are outsiders. However, the urban core is their home turf, and their presence being a gate towards the end-game is pretty explicit in the theme of proving that cooperation with Pokemon trumps exploitation of Pokemon. The gifted Lapras even relates to this theme by being an endangered Pokemon and one that is entrusted to someone who demonstrates their commitment to cooperation. When Team Rocket is defeated, they’re basically exiled to the periphery. In fact, Johto does the reverse of Kanto during Team Rocket’s revival, having them begin causing trouble in the periphery before they finally convene and take over the urbanized core again, this time in Goldenrod City.

There’s much more to the games than you and others in this thread are recognizing. These themes are persistent throughout the series and are expanded upon further each time the world becomes larger. Johto is explicitly in contrast to Kanto with its ruralism, isolation, budding scientific institutions, traditionalism, and mysticism. This is hammered home even harder in the post-game exploration of an even more urbanized Kanto. The environmentalist themes never go away either. The villainous teams in the early part of the series explicitly use or sabotage technology and scientific discoveries, tying back to these themes of environmentalism and respect for nature: Team Rocket uses Slowpoke tails for money, broadcasts radio waves to force evolution, powers the Rocket Hideout with Electrode, and takes over the radio tower as a way to intimidate, propagandize, and revive. Team Magma/Aqua steal submarines and research and attack scientists, and Galactic do the same with the Valley Windworks (notably renewable energy) and Professor Rowan. There isn’t an organization in Pokemon that is saying nothing, and Pokemon is absolutely not “cowardly” Bakugames. The evil organization of Alola existing on an artificial WHITE island called a “paradise” separate from the four islands of the region could not be less subtle. The invasive species motifs of Ultra Beasts and the associations between all of them and human encroachment on the natural world is trying to say something about the effect people in the real world are having on the environment, especially of the land that Alola is based on.

There are inevitably things about the world of Pokemon that fundamentally do not make sense politically or are just not coherent, and that’s okay. Pokemon is fantasy (like explicitly based on genre fantasy RPGs) and it’s not going to be a perfect reflection of reality. However, the games are trying to say more than they’re often understood as saying. There’s a justifiable amount of cynicism surrounding aspects like the dual-versions and trade evolutions that absolutely do facilitate the financial aspects of the series. However, the themes of connection and self-betterment in the series come out through these elements: you can’t become your best self without interacting with others and making connections.

These connections are also why I think the moaning about esoteric game design in Pokemon is shallow and misses the point. The paratext of the games is part of the experience of Pokemon as a social game: you won’t be able to catch every Pokemon or find every Pokemon without cooperating and sharing information with others. We attain mastery by making connections and cooperating with others. Older adventure games like original The Legend of Zelda are designed around players sharing information with each other, taking notes, using all of their resources, and cooperating to figure out the games. Pokemon isn’t any different, and it’s always promoted socializing with others to solve problems in the games. Trading, exchanging strategies, and sharing information about where to find Pokemon have always been core aspects of the series for this reason. The incompleteness of the two versions isn’t just to sell but also to drive people to interact so they can create more understanding and enjoy something together.
 
I don’t think that Kanto’s themes of urbanism vs environmentalism were poorly conveyed. Pokemon is partly based on the tension between older hobbies of bug collecting in the countryside against the more urbanized world of the 1990’s where children were spending less time in a natural environment. Kanto is built around an urban core of Saffron, Celadon, and Vermillion, which is off-limits at first. The player literally travels in a big loop that weaves around the core of Saffron City, traversing through natural cave systems and multiple built underground paths. The Pokemon of the most far-flung or rural parts of Kanto are the ones that most resemble wild animals from our world: Pidgey, Caterpie, Beedrill, Sandshrew, Ekans, etc. However, the core of the region is associated with fewer varieties of Pokemon. The ones that relate to pollution and urbanization, you mention Koffing and Grimer, notably are obtainable later in the game in a place that was destroyed due to a moment when science and technology being used to exploit Pokemon. There’s a contrast between Pikachu and Magnemite for where they’re encountered in the region initially, and lots more to be traced. Geography defining the Pokemon world isn’t new either: Hoenn is split up into geographic areas that can only be fully traversed by gaining the tools to cooperate with Pokemon in order to explore this overworld with techniques like Rock Smash and Surf. Hoenn is also about the divide between the land and the sea, but also how these coexist with each other. The region is shaped like a yin-yang symbol. Sinnoh is split by Mt Coronet, which bars the player from passing over the midline of the region twice before they’ve even got three badges.

Kanto’s themes of genetic engineering and the conflicts and harmonies between science and nature are present throughout the region. Pallet Town, Pewter City, and Cinnabar Island all have scientific institutions that are the defining features of their towns. Fossil Pokemon, Ditto, Eevee, Mewtwo, and Mew are deeply entangled with the tension between the natural world and the emerging ability of people to manipulate life. Yes, the Ditto and Mew connection is often a result of fandom over reading, but there’s an explicit theme that connects many of these Pokemon together just beyond the “all Pokemon are connected” theme. Whether or not there’s a direct connection between Ditto and Mew beyond linked locations and colors and Transform, let alone fanon trying to make it explicit, there’s a very unsubtle theme of genetics that many of these Pokemon are involved in.

These themes of environmentalism vs urbanization are why Team Rocket is villainous, as they exploit Pokemon in a world that is up front about how people and Pokemon become their best selves by coexisting and cooperating. It’s not coincidental that Team Rocket have presences in places like Mt Moon by stealing positive scientific discoveries, Pokemon Tower where they disrespect the lives of Pokemon, Celadon City being an urban hub and shopping district, and Saffron City and the takeover of a huge beneficent tech company. Team Rocket are less concentrated in the periphery, where they are outsiders. However, the urban core is their home turf, and their presence being a gate towards the end-game is pretty explicit in the theme of proving that cooperation with Pokemon trumps exploitation of Pokemon. The gifted Lapras even relates to this theme by being an endangered Pokemon and one that is entrusted to someone who demonstrates their commitment to cooperation. When Team Rocket is defeated, they’re basically exiled to the periphery. In fact, Johto does the reverse of Kanto during Team Rocket’s revival, having them begin causing trouble in the periphery before they finally convene and take over the urbanized core again, this time in Goldenrod City.

There’s much more to the games than you and others in this thread are recognizing. These themes are persistent throughout the series and are expanded upon further each time the world becomes larger. Johto is explicitly in contrast to Kanto with its ruralism, isolation, budding scientific institutions, traditionalism, and mysticism. This is hammered home even harder in the post-game exploration of an even more urbanized Kanto. The environmentalist themes never go away either. The villainous teams in the early part of the series explicitly use or sabotage technology and scientific discoveries, tying back to these themes of environmentalism and respect for nature: Team Rocket uses Slowpoke tails for money, broadcasts radio waves to force evolution, powers the Rocket Hideout with Electrode, and takes over the radio tower as a way to intimidate, propagandize, and revive. Team Magma/Aqua steal submarines and research and attack scientists, and Galactic do the same with the Valley Windworks (notably renewable energy) and Professor Rowan. There isn’t an organization in Pokemon that is saying nothing, and Pokemon is absolutely not “cowardly” Bakugames. The evil organization of Alola existing on an artificial WHITE island called a “paradise” separate from the four islands of the region could not be less subtle. The invasive species motifs of Ultra Beasts and the associations between all of them and human encroachment on the natural world is trying to say something about the effect people in the real world are having on the environment, especially of the land that Alola is based on.

There are inevitably things about the world of Pokemon that fundamentally do not make sense politically or are just not coherent, and that’s okay. Pokemon is fantasy (like explicitly based on genre fantasy RPGs) and it’s not going to be a perfect reflection of reality. However, the games are trying to say more than they’re often understood as saying. There’s a justifiable amount of cynicism surrounding aspects like the dual-versions and trade evolutions that absolutely do facilitate the financial aspects of the series. However, the themes of connection and self-betterment in the series come out through these elements: you can’t become your best self without interacting with others and making connections.

These connections are also why I think the moaning about esoteric game design in Pokemon is shallow and misses the point. The paratext of the games is part of the experience of Pokemon as a social game: you won’t be able to catch every Pokemon or find every Pokemon without cooperating and sharing information with others. We attain mastery by making connections and cooperating with others. Older adventure games like original The Legend of Zelda are designed around players sharing information with each other, taking notes, using all of their resources, and cooperating to figure out the games. Pokemon isn’t any different, and it’s always promoted socializing with others to solve problems in the games. Trading, exchanging strategies, and sharing information about where to find Pokemon have always been core aspects of the series for this reason. The incompleteness of the two versions isn’t just to sell but also to drive people to interact so they can create more understanding and enjoy something together.
I find "urbanism vs environmentalism" to be shallow in and of itself. The human population isn't going away, so the way to preserve as much of nature as possible is to stop sprawling out and commit to making building up livable. Putting rural traditionalists on the side of nature comes off as only looking at surface appearances. A criticism I will also frequently direct at the mon choices when the devs do try for an environmentalist message. All the cute mammals that correspond to common pets are frequently significant disruptions to the environment, meanwhile the role of invasive species is played by *checks notes* a relative of coral made out of the material other reef-builders use for their foundations which *checks notes* cannot reproduce in this environment at all.

I'd say gen 5 is the only time where the message felt like it actually landed. Modern vs traditional was completely separate from the plot, and the sympathetic activist character is willing to give respect to (still 100% natural in-universe) weirdos like Klink and Sigilyph.
 
There isn’t an organization in Pokemon that is saying nothing, and Pokemon is absolutely not “cowardly” @Bakugames. The evil organization of Alola existing on an artificial WHITE island called a “paradise” separate from the four islands of the region could not be less subtle. The invasive species motifs of Ultra Beasts and the associations between all of them and human encroachment on the natural world is trying to say something about the effect people in the real world are having on the environment, especially of the land that Alola is based on.

Congrats you mentioned the only pokémon game that actually tried to say something of worth. what is kantos message? vague environmentalism with no direction or purpose other than "isnt technology and human advancement kinda scary guys? anyway heres some yakuza". what is johtos message? "shintoism is still epic and awesome guys. anyway heres some yakuza". what is hoenns message? "extremist environmentalism... is bad. anyway heres some environmental yakuza". what is sinnoh message? idk cults exist and sometimes youre depressed. what is unovas message? "guys.... nuance is real. and peta is wrong #pwned" what is xys message? i'll be honest that one i dont even remember anymore. i think they just wanted some crazy villain guy. what is galars message? uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. idk i think hops narrative of feeling his brothers shadow is fun but everything else is nonexistent. paldea finally brings back some proper narrative but its not a large theme as much as you have interpersonal conflicts which dont really send a message (because thats not what they are there for. unless the message is if you dont have parents you become fucked up i guess?). so the only message is kinda "bullying is bad".

the reason im so dismissive of all of these is because pokemon refuses to actually engage with anything other than surface level baby's first narrative stuff. all it says is something very basic that almost every other work spits out and then doesn't follow up with anything. Oh kanto is about environmentalism? thats cool, then what? nothing. theres nothing. its as deep as a puddle.

and you know pokemon doesnt have to be deep. it could and id appreciate it more but ive accepted its always going to be simplified and surface level. but i refuse to act as if theres anything deeper in pokemons messaging. when gamefreak actually starts thinking for more than 2 seconds on their themes i'll give them a chance
 
I find "urbanism vs environmentalism" to be shallow in and of itself. The human population isn't going away, so the way to preserve as much of nature as possible is to stop sprawling out and commit to making building up livable. Putting rural traditionalists on the side of nature comes off as only looking at surface appearances. A criticism I will also frequently direct at the mon choices when the devs do try for an environmentalist message. All the cute mammals that correspond to common pets are frequently significant disruptions to the environment, meanwhile the role of invasive species is played by *checks notes* a relative of coral made out of the material other reef-builders use for their foundations which *checks notes* cannot reproduce in this environment at all.

I'd say gen 5 is the only time where the message felt like it actually landed. Modern vs traditional was completely separate from the plot, and the sympathetic activist character is willing to give respect to (still 100% natural in-universe) weirdos like Klink and Sigilyph.
The theme of urbanism vs environmentalism is hardly shallow. That there is conflict between human needs and the needs of non-human life doesn't mean that humans have to go away because that tension is fundamental to why Pokemon is compelling and constantly flashing its theme of "WE NEED TO COEXIST" in neon lighting. I specifically pointed out scientific institutions like the Pewter Museum and Oak's Lab because they reflect that scientific knowledge can coexist with the natural world, and they're often better together! Rural traditionalism being only surface appearances doesn't check out. There are entire locations in Hoenn that are the way they are because people are going out of their way to be respectful towards nature: Fortree City is built amongst the forested environment, Pacifidlog Town exists peacefully above a Corsola colony, the mining operations of the Rusturf Tunnel were cancelled because they disrupted the local wildlife, and the Sea Mauville in ORAS expands even further on the Abandoned Ship by turning it into an ecologically protected area. In the last case, a place that was once planned to be used to extract resources from the environment instead is reintegrated as a new environment itself!

Congrats you mentioned the only pokémon game that actually tried to say something of worth. what is kantos message? vague environmentalism with no direction or purpose other than "isnt technology and human advancement kinda scary guys? anyway heres some yakuza". what is johtos message? "shintoism is still epic and awesome guys. anyway heres some yakuza". what is hoenns message? "extremist environmentalism... is bad. anyway heres some environmental yakuza". what is sinnoh message? idk cults exist and sometimes youre depressed. what is unovas message? "guys.... nuance is real. and peta is wrong #pwned" what is xys message? i'll be honest that one i dont even remember anymore. i think they just wanted some crazy villain guy. what is galars message? uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. idk i think hops narrative of feeling his brothers shadow is fun but everything else is nonexistent. paldea finally brings back some proper narrative but its not a large theme as much as you have interpersonal conflicts which dont really send a message (because thats not what they are there for. unless the message is if you dont have parents you become fucked up i guess?). so the only message is kinda "bullying is bad".

the reason im so dismissive of all of these is because pokemon refuses to actually engage with anything other than surface level baby's first narrative stuff. all it says is something very basic that almost every other work spits out and then doesn't follow up with anything. Oh kanto is about environmentalism? thats cool, then what? nothing. theres nothing. its as deep as a puddle.

and you know pokemon doesnt have to be deep. it could and id appreciate it more but ive accepted its always going to be simplified and surface level. but i refuse to act as if theres anything deeper in pokemons messaging. when gamefreak actually starts thinking for more than 2 seconds on their themes i'll give them a chance
Kanto isn't the only game to have an intentional message. If you read the original post, I linked to a land-sea conflict in Japan over development that parallels Team Magma and Team Aqua. Hoenn is extremely interested in conveying environmentalist themes and the interdependence of natural forces like the land and the sea. Everything with Sinnoh and Hisui is about the importance of connection with others. The landscape of Sinnoh, like its inspiration of Hokkaido, is geographically difficult to traverse, which creates isolated communities that force people to interact with each other. It's not a coincidence that this is a major theme in DPP when those were the games that also introduced the GTS, which is retrospectively brilliant on a metatextual level given that we saw an explosion in online play that drove the creation of forums like Smogon. BW and its sequels are concerned with rigidity against diversity, which I discussed in my response above. There's an excellent video by an essayist named Skyehoppers on the confused but still intentional message of X and Y about fascism and its toll on people and the environment. SWSH makes the Pokemon franchise's focus on energy extraction as being in conflict with nature the most apparent it's ever been with the plotline with Chairman Rose, Eternatus, and the Dynamax phenomenon. Galar having two defunct mines and an energy company as the true villainous team is absolutely a thematic choice taken from the region of the real world it's based on. Given how frequently Pokemon is commenting on real-world geographical and environmental situations, I don't think it's fair to label it as being shallow.

Instead, your shallow response actually reflects a refusal to engage with these themes. Pokemon is admirable for being able to convey its themes to all ages, and its universalist themes work when we are all living in the natural world. Children are capable of grasping the theme of working hard to become the best version of yourself (a Pokemon master), but this is something that is still applicable no matter where you are in your life. It's not just Kanto that's about environmentalism: every Pokemon game addresses tensions that exist between science and nature, the built environment and the natural environment, and people and non-human life. The relationship between Alolan Rattata and Yungoos even reflects a desire to evolve Pokemon in a way that comments on human interventions in the natural world, same with the Aether Foundation conserving Corsola due to them being prey for Mareanie. I don't know what to say to you if you think that a relationship between Pokemon that reflects new technologies and even failed technologies of biocontrol isn't thematically rich or relevant.

You don't even have to think about Pokemon that deeply to encounter its themes and ideas. Think about why a series with environmentalist themes would regularly feature places of energy extraction like defunct electrical power plants (RBY, RSE), wind turbines (DPP), coal mining towns (DPP, SWSH), and solar power plants (XY), and even feature a Pokemon like Necrozma that is incomplete because it was exploited for its light. There is something deeper to Pokemon, and it seems like you're missing out on it by being deliberately obtuse about it.
 
double post bc editing on mobile is awful

Also this is a long grudge I've held for like 6 years now, in SWSH hype season I told people in a Discord that a new Eeveelution wasn't gonna happen and was practically bullied by some people for that take lol

And ofc, no one gives a shit about how rude they were like that when they're wrong- they forgot long ago lmao
It be like that sometimes :totodiLUL:

Reddit was upset when I posted about the Battle Frontier not having a snowball's chance in hell of making it to BDSP. Iirc, some people were arguing about it here too, but in general, the community is a lot nicer here. :mehowth:

Also I just wanna get this out of my system because I don't know when I'll get another opportunity but I'm stunned at how many people are still asking for BW remakes. I thought Unova fans wanted followup on Blueberry Academy and a check-in on Emmet but a surprisingly large chunk apparently just wanna reheat the 2010 DS game and cram it in the next year while Kalos gets all the actual cool new content and worldbuilding. "But the original games are too expensive now and I want new players to experience them" ok, fair enough. Ask for a DS Pokemon Legacy Collection or NSO ports then.

I have seen one genuinely good argument for a BW remake and that's restoring the Dream World in an entirely in-game form. Everything else, in my view, is tantamount to asking for a boring, inferior product as a Unova revisit. This isn't even BDSP doom: They could release a Supreme Black and Wondrous White that's absolutely gorgeous and lovingly crafted with 5 years of dev time and more content than HGSS and my overriding thought on it "Why didn't you make a Link Between Worlds-style BW3 with all this stuff?????"

Legends has raised the bar. The possibilities for returning to old regions are basically near-infinite now. Let go of remakes.
I want a BDSP-style, ILCA-faithful remake, directed by Masuda himself, of Black and White. Not BW2, Black. And. White.

Unironically, it would be a massive update by getting rid of those awful sprite distortions and having actual 3D.
Also ok sorry for double posting but its a completely different topic that's been on my mind: Yknow how when people bring up the azure flute, the first joke is "lol the azure flute was too complex but they made the regi puzzles?? is gamefreak stupid??"

Maybe its a topic people talked about and I missed it, but why do people act like thats some sort of epic gotcha and not a pretty understandable reaction to feedback? I know that the inclusion of braille in the game guide was not universal, and with the fact not all kids would even keep game guides around, the number of calls for help/confusion over the puzzle would be pretty large across most places. it wouldnt surprise me if they were like "ok guys, next time if we make a puzzle like this the information NEEDS to be in the game itself" and avoided similar puzzles in general.

hell, we only returned to pretty insane convoluted puzzles and evo methods in the recent 2 gens, and I think its influenced by the speed of leaks and information research: sure runerigius evo method is stupid as hell, but its also going to be revealed in 1-3 or so days regardless, so it doesnt matter. and we can talk about kids still playing the game, but all kids i know will google shit and check wikis (before even facing a challenge really, they'll get a pokemon and immediately check if it evolves and how), they aren't that hopeless stupid
Counter-point: Galarian Yamask. :mehowth:

The Azure Flute wasn't complicated at all tbh, all you needed was a random paragraph written with some flowery, grandiose style like "At the peak of Sinnoh, where legends are seen, an unheard tune calls a new one, supreme."

There, Azure Flute fixed. Seriously, it's that simple.
 
what is hoenns message? "extremist environmentalism... is bad. anyway heres some environmental yakuza"
Still forever pissed off that the leak for Gen 3 dev had Archie actually be good, but blamed by the media thanks to corruption in Devon Corp (Maxie and his close employees) changed for final. It'd be better than....2 sides-ing eco terrorists, which ORAS made more generically evil

Honestly this talk of themes reminds me of how that argument of there being a theme typically comes up when story is incredibly sparse, but "vibes" are good. Like a theme is just one aspect of the story, if it's conveyed way too poorly or unrelated to the main plot, it's just a meh story. Note, I do like Hoenn's environmentalism in world building, but Archie/Maxie were handled too stupidly, and leaks show that it was to suddenly prop up Kyogre/Groudon vs the earlier plot

RGB is extremely simplistic for objective/story, and I'm actually fine with that. But it genuinely has poor game design due to turbulent dev, and I've seen better RPGs/Action games for OW movement and NPCs in other games on the same hardware. I will NOT rose tint it as "but Tajiri had such a strong connection to the plight of urbanism when he grew up" when it's super disconnected from the actual objective, nor lends itself to another. The player never has a choice to actually be aware of it, just that a mafia group thrives around. Hell, nothing even connects Mewtwo to Team Rocket in the actual games, that was shit the anime and Adventures tacked on to make TR more important to world building

The worst thing is how it took till Gen 7 to have sidequests, and how most dex entries are explicitly just fluff, not actual things that impact world building and interactivity. GF like the idea of a sprawling roster, but they don't have the dedication to integrate it fully into their world

Hell I'd argue this applies to many post 2000s Ghibli movies having a weak plot hard carried by aesthetic and repeated themes, but that's beyond a spicy take
 
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Also ok sorry for double posting but its a completely different topic that's been on my mind: Yknow how when people bring up the azure flute, the first joke is "lol the azure flute was too complex but they made the regi puzzles?? is gamefreak stupid??"

Maybe its a topic people talked about and I missed it, but why do people act like thats some sort of epic gotcha and not a pretty understandable reaction to feedback? I know that the inclusion of braille in the game guide was not universal, and with the fact not all kids would even keep game guides around, the number of calls for help/confusion over the puzzle would be pretty large across most places. it wouldnt surprise me if they were like "ok guys, next time if we make a puzzle like this the information NEEDS to be in the game itself" and avoided similar puzzles in general.

hell, we only returned to pretty insane convoluted puzzles and evo methods in the recent 2 gens, and I think its influenced by the speed of leaks and information research: sure runerigius evo method is stupid as hell, but its also going to be revealed in 1-3 or so days regardless, so it doesnt matter. and we can talk about kids still playing the game, but all kids i know will google shit and check wikis (before even facing a challenge really, they'll get a pokemon and immediately check if it evolves and how), they aren't that hopeless stupid
So my thing with the Azure Flute is that following this logic, they elected to simply... not have the puzzle either, rather than put the rest of the information in the game. Shaymin's about as out of the way since there's no reason to visit its route besides said event, and they could have had an NPC comment on it or used the item's flavor text like said Shaymin event.

A flute that puts out echoing sounds that do not seem to be of this world. It is unknown who made it. [This symbol matches one at Spear Pillar]

The other two mythicals are why I question Arceus being the one they decided to handle this way if Gen 3 reaction is why they judged the Azure Flute too obscure for average players.

I don't even disagree insofar as it being a bad battle theme, but I think it does a good job of setting the tone for "you are now fighting the creator god". It should be off-putting and weird, I feel like. Arceus is my least favorite Pokemon just because I don't think Pokemon should have a designated creator god (and it's also why I'm infinitely grateful the more fleshed-out mythos from the Teraleak didn't make the cut, but that's a separate discussion altogether), but I think Arceus' theme does an excellent job of setting the tone, even if it's not very good as a conventional battle theme.
I'm torn on this more after PLA actually. In the original Gen 4 depictions like the anime and HGSS manga, Arceus was depicted as having these powers over creation, but it was a far cry from the idea of Omnipotence you would associate with it in the Myths or later media. In a sense, it reminded me a bit of the Angels and titular Giants from Evangelion: As beings they are from a stage or plane FAR beyond mortal humanity's capacity to imitate, but not necessarily beyond our capacity to control, and it spells trouble when trying whether or not we're successful. Things like Team Rocket trying to enslave it with the plates or M12 where it's depicted as possible to slay, if taking incredibly particular circumstances to get the opportunity (much like the extreme long shots odds and resource toll every Angel fight in Eva requires).

PLA unambiguously makes Arceus a/the creator deity, which besides the debate of if one SHOULD be made as you mentioned, I also find less interesting and kind of at odds with those old depictions. I found said old approach the best way to go because it made Arceus and similar "scale" Legendaries like the Original Dragon, Ultra Necrozma, and (Eternamax particularly) Eternatus easy to put in sort of their own "tier" for lore that multiple Pokemon could fit onto while still being respectably powerful/approachable for gameplay. In this regard I think it's those specific lines of Arceus in PLA that make me like it a lot less for the universe.
 
Given how frequently Pokemon is commenting on real-world geographical and environmental situations, I don't think it's fair to label it as being shallow.
you didnt say anything that added to the convo tbh. sure, pokemon asks questions and has themes: and then what? does it answer them, does it dwelve on them? does it do anything at all?

there's environmental themes: and then what? whats the answer, how does it actually impact people, who suffers less or more? or is the answer beating up some evil bad guy and the issue gets solved? is the evil bad guy explored in any way? why is the evil bad guy like that?

there's themes of isolation: and then what? there's themes of energy extraction: and then what? does pokemon actually explore any of these on the pokemon world, reflections of our own world, or does it use it as a theme for a new boss battle and evil team? do you as a player see any consequences of energy extraction or isolation or environmentalism in your exploration? do you engage with it beyond beating up some crooks that are labeled evil guys so you know the thing they support is evil? do you get to make choices or see your character involved in these themes?

you compared pokemon with disco elysium, but de is infinitely more willing to ask questions and make you face the consequences of its world. it is so willing that half of what happens cant be posted here because its overly political and will gladly call you a straight up fascist for certain choices. does pokemon make you like... think? ever? it is better at interpersonal struggle, as the last 3 gens did have good character arcs, but did you have to ponder about the themes of pokemon? were you ever challenged by it if even for 2 minutes?

the existence of a theme does not a meaningful game make. no matter how much its relevant or reflects current worlds, a theme with no follow up is set dressing, its aesthetics. pokemon themes are aesthetics
 
the existence of a theme does not a meaningful game make. no matter how much its relevant or reflects current worlds, a theme with no follow up is set dressing, its aesthetics. pokemon themes are aesthetics
Sonic fans acting like the IDW Metal Virus arc and Surge are muh deep and serious unlike stinky games when it's incredibly anti characterization and surface level if you spend 5 min for analysis be like

I've pretty much ranted about this point regarding fangames overprioritizing aesthetic over actual game design and writing, then never finishing, but this point about themes genuinely is a problem of what led to nostalgia brownie points taking hold of the game and Hollywood industry. It's an extremely dangerous thing to do willingly

Also I need to play Disco Elysium, thanks for reminding me
 
Luckily in Brazil it's required by law that a medicine's name is also written in braille in the box/ package so that's the reason I quickly realized what it was and what I used to decode the messages.
is learning braille (or at least a bit of it) from medicine packs a canonical brazilian experience... i did play these games as an adult only but when i saw the dots i was like oh its braille because i learned to read braille to read medicine boxes
 
As I see it, pop culture has two extremes for the existence of themes in their media. I specify pop-culture as in works made to entertain and be commercialized as at least one primary goal, compared to "Cinema" films or literature where they exist to depict artistic meaning or material regardless of broad appeal or a monetary return.

At one end you have something like Star Wars and Pokemon, where the themes and/or their depiction are very simplistic and on the face such that they're simply "seen" rather than interpreted; then at the other you have something like NGE (it's been my "hyperfixation" lately so pardon the double dip referencing it) where most of the audience agrees there are thematic elements deeper than the face value events... and that's as far as a consensus goes because to this day all manner of interpretation exist for metanarrative implications of the individual OR collective entries, or ambiguous/not-explicitly-defined scenes such as the infamous ending of the Anime's finale film.

I do think there is merit to the former, in that presenting the theme on its face can spark a conversation even if the work does not itself take a defined stance or delve into the issue, but this value should not be conflated with how strong or weak the narrative itself is.
 
you didnt say anything that added to the convo tbh. sure, pokemon asks questions and has themes: and then what? does it answer them, does it dwelve on them? does it do anything at all?

there's environmental themes: and then what? whats the answer, how does it actually impact people, who suffers less or more? or is the answer beating up some evil bad guy and the issue gets solved? is the evil bad guy explored in any way? why is the evil bad guy like that?

there's themes of isolation: and then what? there's themes of energy extraction: and then what? does pokemon actually explore any of these on the pokemon world, reflections of our own world, or does it use it as a theme for a new boss battle and evil team? do you as a player see any consequences of energy extraction or isolation or environmentalism in your exploration? do you engage with it beyond beating up some crooks that are labeled evil guys so you know the thing they support is evil? do you get to make choices or see your character involved in these themes?

you compared pokemon with disco elysium, but de is infinitely more willing to ask questions and make you face the consequences of its world. it is so willing that half of what happens cant be posted here because its overly political and will gladly call you a straight up fascist for certain choices. does pokemon make you like... think? ever? it is better at interpersonal struggle, as the last 3 gens did have good character arcs, but did you have to ponder about the themes of pokemon? were you ever challenged by it if even for 2 minutes?

the existence of a theme does not a meaningful game make. no matter how much its relevant or reflects current worlds, a theme with no follow up is set dressing, its aesthetics. pokemon themes are aesthetics
Please learn what a theme is before you say "and then what?", proceeding to ask what the theme "does". A theme is a message in a piece of work, it doesn't "do" something by itself. You interact with the theme to create your own meaning and additional depth. Themes and questions brought up by a piece of media don't always have clear answers, and that's because we're meant to interpret from them. Pokemon absolutely dwells on its themes and delves deeper into them: the theme of environmentalism and the need for people and Pokemon to coexist is repeatedly explored in areas like the Safari zone, berries, and the plentiful examples I've described in my last few posts. Sinnoh's theme of isolation isn't just geographic, as it's the motive for the villainous team leader. Cyrus's disconnection from others and feelings of rejection lead him to reject the world back and aim to create a new world that has no emotion. The player's connection with beings like Mesprit, which are the embodiments of emotion and parts of humanity, enable them to intervene in and foil Cyrus's plot at the climax through their cooperation with the legendary Pokemon, neutralizing Dialga and Palkia or navigating the Distortion World. The player is capable of connecting with Dialga and Palkia without using the red chain, unlike how Cyrus had to use technology and exploitation of the lake spirits so he could control the ultimate Pokemon. It could not be more obvious that the core themes of Pokemon here are "connection and cooperation".

"Our relationship with the Earth is one that's reciprocal - if you give, you get back" is one of these environmentalist themes in Pokemon. The berry system in RSE is a great example of this: if you want to have more berries, you need to plant berries after you harvest them. Choosing not to engage in this system is an act of roleplaying that makes your experience of playing the game more difficult compared to that of a player who doesn't exhaust all of their berries. DPP even expand on this with the Poketch app that keeps track of berries, signifying that people in the world of Pokemon are driven to use technology towards environmental reciprocity and taking care of natural life. Your response leads me to think that you don't understand what themes are, so I've made sure to make it more explicit here. Pokemon is not just about the player's interactions with the evil team but also the setting and other characters.

Disco Elysium is an RPG I favorably compared to Pokemon because - in the example I was describing for why Pokemon and other media are compelling - the ambiguity and borders of the story drive people to socialize about it, just like Pokemon. That said, DE has different aims as a character-focused RPG for adults that surrounds a murder mystery case compared to a creature-collecting game with a turn-based battle system that's for all ages. DE even explores the same concerns about the environment through different elements of its world, such as the pale. Pokemon describes consequences for human expansion that doesn't respect the environment or belief that humans are in total control of the environment: Rattata infestations that were a result of the urbanization of Alola are answered by introduction of Yungoos, which drives Rattata to adapt into Alolan Rattata, so Yungoos proceeds to become an invasive species itself. Pokemon should be making you think about these real-world issues that don't have neat answers. Pokemon is obviously depicting biocontrol and the consequences of assuming that it's going to be a surefire solution to human-created ecological issues.

If you engage shallowly with a theme, of course you're going to think of it as an aesthetic. In your posts, you reduce things like Cyrus's rejection and disconnection to "depression" for an edgy joke. Themes don't have answers, you engage with them. I've listed several ways that Pokemon has reflected the real world in its setting, plot, and characters to serve its themes, none of which it has ever been subtle about. Every Pokemon game's opening has a pivotal character, usually a Pokemon professor, practically singing about the benefits of the partnership between people and Pokemon and how there's always so much more to explore. Pokemon could not be less obvious about these themes of connection, self-betterment, and the importance of coexisting with the natural world. Pokemon follows up on its themes by depicting the growth of the player and the people around them as they become the best versions of themselves through their relationships with Pokemon. Lillie is inspired by Cosmog and the player to become a more active force in her own life in SM, Wally overcomes his weakness and insecurity through his partnership with another weaker Pokemon and by going on a journey, Bianca discovers what she wants to do by going on a journey that defies the expectations of her father, and so on.

Saying things like "Congrats you mentioned the only pokemon game that actually tried to say something of worth" is so clearly bad faith media criticism. It's annoying, and it's actually what subtracts from conversations about Pokemon because it deliberately ignores and downplays readings of the games that make a real effort to dive deeper into the messages that they're trying to say.
 
i think this convo is a bust because i simply disagree with all that you said. a lot of examples are extremely simple and one off (or are alola, which i mentioned again is a pretty big exception for the franchise) or are pretty shallow and underdeveloped by themselves (wally and cyrus lol).

but also because the notion here is both that having a theme imbues a work with immediate depth and though AND that the only way one can interact with the world of pokemon is if the themes are in depth, both which i consider false premises. one can talk about the nuances of pokemon and how it reflects the politics of its creators without it being a work of depth, because thats just a inherit feature of art no matter its quality
 
As I see it, pop culture has two extremes for the existence of themes in their media. I specify pop-culture as in works made to entertain and be commercialized as at least one primary goal, compared to "Cinema" films or literature where they exist to depict artistic meaning or material regardless of broad appeal or a monetary return.

At one end you have something like Star Wars and Pokemon, where the themes and/or their depiction are very simplistic and on the face such that they're simply "seen" rather than interpreted; then at the other you have something like NGE (it's been my "hyperfixation" lately so pardon the double dip referencing it) where most of the audience agrees there are thematic elements deeper than the face value events... and that's as far as a consensus goes because to this day all manner of interpretation exist for metanarrative implications of the individual OR collective entries, or ambiguous/not-explicitly-defined scenes such as the infamous ending of the Anime's finale film.

I do think there is merit to the former, in that presenting the theme on its face can spark a conversation even if the work does not itself take a defined stance or delve into the issue, but this value should not be conflated with how strong or weak the narrative itself is.
I don't mean to pick on this post, but I disagree that Star Wars is simplistic with the themes it is trying to convey, and it's definitely not using them as window dressing or pure entertainment. George Lucas has described his inspiration for the conflict between the resistance and the Empire as being related to the global conflicts that the United States involved itself in during the mid-20th century. It's literally in the name "empire", something that is definitionally expanding, exerting control, and militarized. For all of the mess of the prequels, they're interested in the themes surrounding how easily institutions of power can be manipulated towards coalescing into antidemocratic empire. These movies are being sold back to the people who are inside the core of the empire itself, and I believe it's also why they're still compelling now! These themes are asking people to think more deeply about the world they live in by interacting with this piece of art.

Pokemon is the same way: even though it has broad appeal, there are subtler themes and more complex things it wants to communicate. Ultra Beasts threaten the balance of the already-sensitive island ecology of Alola, but they have home dimensions that the player can visit in USUM, and they demonstrate in their home environments that even invasive species still have dignity and places they come from. It's an entirely new way of characterizing them too compared to SM, where they're much more of crazy alien threats. In SV, Paradox Pokemon pose an ecological threat to the rest of Paldea to the point that they have to be contained in an environment that no one else is permitted to enter without proving themselves. However, they're still living beings that are worthy of respect and understanding. What does the future of Paldea look like with them permanently contained in Area Zero? Is that ethical or acceptable? There's also themes to them that are, funnily enough, paradoxical. The Swords of Justice are supposed to be Pokemon that challenged humans to protect other Pokemon, but their Paradox counterparts contradict that completely through the implications that they were created in the future to act as weapons. Not only is that dark, but it raises so many questions about what kind of world would have to exist for people to create these mechanical weapons and model them after guardians of the natural environment. Even if Paradox Pokemon like Iron Boulder don't come from a "real" future, that they can be imagined at all is troubling. It also reflects the possibility of artificial life being used towards destructive ends, something Pokemon is pretty obviously not for. Deoxys has some similarly deeper themes and motifs: it's kind of existentially fucked up that not only do alien Pokemon exist, but that more life is out there. It taps into the real-world existentialism of the possibility that life on Earth may have been seeded by something else, and that we still don't know about the origins of life or if more life is out there. The scope of the series has obviously evolved beyond "wow imagine if there was an alien Pokemon", but it's still something resonant. It's also a great twist on the theme of Hoenn as being this place that is thematically meant to be a balance between the land and the sea, overseen by the sky, because Deoxys is an outside distortion.

I love NGE so much too. I recently got another friend of mine to watch it just so I could vicariously experience it again and learn his perspectives. I think NGE is absolutely rich in its themes. That said, that one meme of "War is bad" flying over the head of "wow cool robot!" not only summarizes some of my readings of this thread but perfectly applies to NGE too. One of the themes I've been thinking about lately is about using other people towards selfish ends and the idea of "instrumentality"; adult characters in the show use Shinji as a way to get what they want, and they all experience comeuppances for doing so that exclude them from the core of the instrumentality that actually happens.
 
i think this convo is a bust because i simply disagree with all that you said. a lot of examples are extremely simple and one off (or are alola, which i mentioned again is a pretty big exception for the franchise) or are pretty shallow and underdeveloped by themselves (wally and cyrus lol).

but also because the notion here is both that having a theme imbues a work with immediate depth and though AND that the only way one can interact with the world of pokemon is if the themes are in depth, both which i consider false premises. one can talk about the nuances of pokemon and how it reflects the politics of its creators without it being a work of depth, because thats just a inherit feature of art no matter its quality
I do think it's a bust that you write off the textual examples I bring up, either because they're "simple" (as though elements and motifs that back up themes aren't relevant for being simple), they are or are not from your preferred game (arbitrary), or they aren't personally compelling to you. That's not media criticism though, that's just your personal feelings on those elements and your choice to ignore these parts of the series. You are mistaking your subjective experience with the games as being something objective, which is why you're using words like "quality" to describe art. Doing so doesn't change that Pokemon games have themes and depth to them, things that are often underdiscussed and written off in the reception of the games despite the massive size of the population that engages with Pokemon and discusses it.

I'm tired of these shallow takes on Magma/Aqua being simple ecoterrorists and Rocket just being gangsters and Cyrus just being depressed, so I'm going against the grain of popular fandom sentiment and actually digging deeper into what Pokemon is trying to say. I could go on with finding examples of how Pokemon's themes emerge through different frameworks, but it's not even worth doing that if you're going to disregard discussions of themes for whatever arbitrary and personal reasons you choose. You've made claims like how other Pokemon games don't actually try to say anything of worth or contain depth, which you're now backpedaling on after being shown examples that demonstrate these themes.
 
woah thats crazy. i dont care though play disco elysium

i think i already posted this but ive been replaying a pmd sky (edited) and ill be honest: kinda crazy how people will slam sumo for its cutscenes (which i do think there should be a skip option for) meanwhile pmd sky is like 60% cutscene and railroad content. you cannot go by 2 in game days without being forced to play sentry duty or being shoved to a plot dungeon with no choice in the matter. all that and the story is not even that good

and to add this isnt a "two different people being lumped into one with contrasting opinions for my epic takedown" ive seen enough people glazing sky that also hate alola (or modern pokemon in general tbh)
 
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