Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

why do we care about unbanning mons like Palafin and Solg at all? Even if it's not broken, shouldn't the focus be on addressing issues that the majority of players (e.g. Tera, Wogerpon, Kyurem) want action on?

I agree that something like Palafin would never be okay in OU as long as Tera is legal. I don't really enjoy Tera either, but it's false to say the majority of players want action on Tera 'cause as time went on support for action on Tera declined as Finchinator demonstrated. And regarding Ogerpon-Wellspring, support for suspecting it declines as player skill goes up as shown by the survey. Given the propensity of many players to vote 5, I'm banking that the actual support for getting rid of Ogerpon-Wellspring is actually less than half the playerbase.


:Kyurem: Kyurem :Kyurem:

  • General: 3.59 / 5
  • Qualified: 3.50 / 5
  • SPL: 3.77 / 5
Kyurem received a good amount of support and we will discuss it as a potential target for tiering action. I expect for us to discuss the topic on the forums rather than rushing into an immediate suspect, but anything is possible.

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: Ogerpon-Wellspring :Ogerpon-Wellspring:

  • General: 3.42 / 5
  • Qualified: 3.24 / 5
  • SPL: 3.10 / 5
Ogerpon-Wellspring received some support and we will continue to keep it in discussions for future tiering action. It did not get the most support and it was not particularly close, but there is reason to keep Ogerpon-Wellspring on the future radar.

Kyurem is basically the only mon that a real majority of players want gone, and I agree that it should be the focus regarding tiering action.
 
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I'll be very definitive in saying that I don't think moltres is "broken" in the slightest, in the terms of powerlevel that is used on this forum. Flame body / static are just examples of skilless gameplay to me that promote reactive switch-wars. I don't find this interesting. I also don't agree that hyper-offense is the best that it's been. It is a lot harder to run a glimorra/treads + 5 sweeper team than it was a year ago. You get blanked by zama/dragonite/ting.
I guess I just disagree that flame body and static are brainless. Yeah they're annoying but I don't think they're something you can mindlessly switch in whenever and just click buttons to win. Also, you're absolutely right about HO being worse than it was a year ago - I meant this generation HO is incredibly strong. And there are plenty of HO teams that can tear apart Zama, DNite, and Lu - a fairy perhaps...
 
Unban Lugia if anything, just an annoying sitting duck.


Solgaleo is bolky, has like koff, I'm p sure it'd run special sets anyways. Why? well it got meteor beam, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, tbolt, it got agility, it got nice bs when u think about it. It's neither Healthy nor easy to deal with
im sorry to tell you this but lugia has this move called "roost" which is pretty cool since it means it pretty much never dies and it hits like a truck too
i did a mini writeup on lugia being a dumb unban idea about a year ago (as you can tell from the darkrai comment) so it's a bit dated but should still hold up fine (iirc gouging was still legal when I wrote this) and honestly i stand with more or less everything I said here with the only exception being the darkrai comment (god damn i was wrong as hell about darkrai)
Having an above average speed mon that isn't completely worthless offensively and is REALLY good at not dying is too much for this metagame. 106/130/154 base defenses are a lot, and even with only 8 pp on recover, it will not die and it can continue using multiscale well through to the lategame.
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Lugia: 126-148 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- 36.1% chance to 3HKO
You also say that Deoxys and Darkrai got dropped to UU but that's because they're just not all that in the metagame, as they both get outclassed by other options. Deo-s with max speed can't outspeed +1 valiant and is pretty much only worthy of OU because it can win in a lead-off vs. Tusk, and Darkrai is kind of just outclassed by Gambit and Valiant in general, both as a setup sweeper/breaker and as a revenge killer (I don't think I need to talk about Deo-D).
The existence of Lugia in the tier also causes a ton of problems because it can do so much for the tier. Defensively, it's a CLEAR upgrade over many of the tier's bulky flyings, and also has access to whirlwind, making it a clear fit as a defensive backbone on hazard stack teams in conjunction with something like Tusk or Ting-lu. Even with a relatively subpar SpA stat, Aeroblast can still do respectable damage (at least enough to deal with the mons that would otherwise completely shut it down)
The lack of Recover PP also isn't a major roadblock. 8 recover PP is more than enough for Lugia to chip down threats to its teammates before dying, and future sight allows you to reposition your team as neccesary.
It also has calm mind, which allows it multiple setup oppurtunities as it can set up in front of the multiple mons who don't like sitting in front of Lugia (Zam, Valiant, Tusk, etc.) which allows it to even more reliably take damage while still hitting quite hard. STAB psychic noise is also a nice tool to have as you can now reliably heal while your opponent cannot.
Honestly, I don't know why we keep entertaining the lugia unban discussion. It's a terrible idea, although it could be considered for generation 10.
 
im sorry to tell you this but lugia has this move called "roost" which is pretty cool since it means it pretty much never dies and it hits like a truck too
i did a mini writeup on lugia being a dumb unban idea about a year ago (as you can tell from the darkrai comment) so it's a bit dated but should still hold up fine (iirc gouging was still legal when I wrote this) and honestly i stand with more or less everything I said here with the only exception being the darkrai comment (god damn i was wrong as hell about darkrai)
I am curious what u mean by hit like a truck since Lugia is really passive. The CM sets gets really affected by 8 pp recover and let's be real and brutally honest it's not that powerful. It's great wall but wants to Tera a lot of the time. It's stabs are either the 8 pp limited aeroblast, unreliable hurricane or piss weak air slash from flying side and psychic noise or Psyshock from physical side. It's like ting lu trading the immensly valuable spikes for cm and recover because u messed up big time Lugia doesn't learn roost anymore. Lugia also is immensly vulnerable to knock off. The only set that I see being problamatic really is Grassy seed CM recover.
The reason why Lugia ban is so entertained is simple it's the least broken legendary atm. It's not solgaleo let's be honest. It's Lugia that's the weakest. I remember people saying "palafin is less broken" now it's pretty obvious that's not the case. I am not sure how healthy Lugia will be but it's definitely the weakest Uber to test mostly because of high Tera Reliance knock weakness passivity low pp moves and mediocre typing. You can sugercoat Lugia all u want but these issues are massive and it's literaly so obvious it's less broken than solgaleo like wtf. Solgaleo is just magearna level stupid (maybe little less).
Lugia <<Solgaleo if any unban is happening if any. I am not even advocating for Lugia unban instead saying Lugia is less broken than solg which i am sure it is.
 
im sorry to tell you this but lugia has this move called "roost" which is pretty cool since it means it pretty much never dies and it hits like a truck too
i did a mini writeup on lugia being a dumb unban idea about a year ago (as you can tell from the darkrai comment) so it's a bit dated but should still hold up fine (iirc gouging was still legal when I wrote this) and honestly i stand with more or less everything I said here with the only exception being the darkrai comment (god damn i was wrong as hell about darkrai)
it has a move called roost but no moves caled Defog, Toxic, Stored Power or anything. besides, 90 Spa doesn't fit the description of "hitting like a truck" except, u know,
OIP-C.jpeg
 
Ok, I’m putting a stop to this Lugia discussion. It’s gotten just as little support as Solgaleo, arguably less, and we’ve already been in circles many times about this.

Moving on, Zamazenta has seen a surprising rise in Life Orb usage lately in SPL, while Chesto Rest and standard IDBP sets still fight for highest usage. Which do you all think are the best sets? How do you feel about Zamazenta in general?
 
Ok, I’m putting a stop to this Lugia discussion. It’s gotten just as little support as Solgaleo, arguably less, and we’ve already been in circles many times about this.

Moving on, Zamazenta has seen a surprising rise in Life Orb usage lately in SPL, while Chesto Rest and standard IDBP sets still fight for highest usage. Which do you all think are the best sets? How do you feel about Zamazenta in general?
Ive been using more boots zama as of late. Idbp and chesto definitely are good, but the amount of hazard stacking makes things really difficult sometimes. Boots enables it to use tera dark crunch more effectively vs ghosts, and you can sorts hit lando or glisc with ice fang(doesnt really hit that hard but its something). You also keep some defensive utility as you already have crazy bulk
 
Actually Lugia doesn't get Roost :|
Gets recover
Ok, I’m putting a stop to this Lugia discussion. It’s gotten just as little support as Solgaleo, arguably less, and we’ve already been in circles many times about this.

Moving on, Zamazenta has seen a surprising rise in Life Orb usage lately in SPL, while Chesto Rest and standard IDBP sets still fight for highest usage. Which do you all think are the best sets? How do you feel about Zamazenta in general?
I Don't get this ubers discussion. We basically decided zamazenta was the worst uber, and look it's the best Pokemon in OU. Dropping other ubers would be a disaster, regardless of how they perform in uber tier or how janky they look on paper.

Rest sets love that you can just boost and press into Moltres. You'll wear it down eventually. That's my favourite set rn
 
Just wanted to do a quick write up on Tyranitar. My though process with him started as a pairing for gallade, since you could scare out or beat booster speed iron moth 100% of the time. I've moved him onto some other teams now and I really love the extra pressure sand puts on boots teams and other annoying Pokemon like dragapult, walking wake, alomomola, ogerpon, kyurem, zapdos etc. Pokemon that can be hard to chip sometimes. In a lot of cases that's really what gambit or zamazenta need when they're waiting in the back, if you can't get that 20% chip on something then they can't pull the reverse sweep. Someone go check the usage on safety goggles... Sand is very effective at chip damage. Not to mention how handy it is against opposing weather.

:Tyranitar: @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 SpD
Brave Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam /Roar
- Protect

Not really going to run through the set tbh it's pretty obvious how you'd pilot this thing. Just remember to use protect liberally. If you're up against special attackers it's going to feel like gliscor. Just unkillable. I know ogerpon and zamazenta have really put this thing at the bottom of the list this gen but hey that's what your other 5 members are for.
 
Just wanted to do a quick write up on Tyranitar. My though process with him started as a pairing for gallade, since you could scare out or beat booster speed iron moth 100% of the time. I've moved him onto some other teams now and I really love the extra pressure sand puts on boots teams and other annoying Pokemon like dragapult, walking wake, alomomola, ogerpon, kyurem, zapdos etc. Pokemon that can be hard to chip sometimes. In a lot of cases that's really what gambit or zamazenta need when they're waiting in the back, if you can't get that 20% chip on something then they can't pull the reverse sweep. Someone go check the usage on safety goggles... Sand is very effective at chip damage. Not to mention how handy it is against opposing weather.

:Tyranitar: @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 SpD
Brave Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam /Roar
- Protect

Not really going to run through the set tbh it's pretty obvious how you'd pilot this thing. Just remember to use protect liberally. If you're up against special attackers it's going to feel like gliscor. Just unkillable. I know ogerpon and zamazenta have really put this thing at the bottom of the list this gen but hey that's what your other 5 members are for.
That settles looks soo passive. Doesn't look like it would even stop bolt if you don't have roar it will just calm mind on you until it breaks through or am I wrong and brave nature gives you enough to ko with knock off before it boosts for KO?

I tyranitar for a bit with assault vest careful and it was good for stopping a lot of special threats but then does miss recovery. I used it with the therian enamorous bc they cover eachothers weaknesses pretty well. But I never broke 1600 with the team. And it's because I was using UU pokemon lol. Tyranitar just isn't that good anymore. Pursuit or the sand recovery move would save it but most mons physical and special can hit it super effectively and it would be a waste of a tera and lose its spdef boost. Wish better for him truly
 
Ok, I’m putting a stop to this Lugia discussion. It’s gotten just as little support as Solgaleo, arguably less, and we’ve already been in circles many times about this.

Moving on, Zamazenta has seen a surprising rise in Life Orb usage lately in SPL, while Chesto Rest and standard IDBP sets still fight for highest usage. Which do you all think are the best sets? How do you feel about Zamazenta in general?
very healthy metagame presence overall, blanket checks are incredibly valuable in a tera meta and offensively it doesn't feel too oppressive, idbp CAN sweep but usually doesn't since it struggles with things like moltres zap pysdef ghold pech etc.
 
I guess I just disagree that flame body and static are brainless. Yeah they're annoying but I don't think they're something you can mindlessly switch in whenever and just click buttons to win. Also, you're absolutely right about HO being worse than it was a year ago - I meant this generation HO is incredibly strong. And there are plenty of HO teams that can tear apart Zama, DNite, and Lu - a fairy perhaps...
Yeah if anything just mindlessly clicking knock/uturn every single turn is what’s brainless. Pivot moves HAVE to be punishable or the game is so lame to play.
 
Ok, I’m putting a stop to this Lugia discussion. It’s gotten just as little support as Solgaleo, arguably less, and we’ve already been in circles many times about this.

Moving on, Zamazenta has seen a surprising rise in Life Orb usage lately in SPL, while Chesto Rest and standard IDBP sets still fight for highest usage. Which do you all think are the best sets? How do you feel about Zamazenta in general?
I haven’t used lorb much so I can’t compare it to that, but boots AoA zama feels by far the most consistent. Sure it has worse matchups into physical attackers, but it still beats most of them, and in return it threatens far more of the tier offensively. Stab CC off of 130 attack is monstrous even without a boosting item. The only downside is having to leave behind either heavy slam (walled by hatt, clef, and val) or ice fang (walled by scor and lando). Imo stone edge and crunch are mandatory for the legendary birds and ghold.

Idef is never sweeping a good team, save for some HO builds, so you have to be content with it strictly being a defensive answer to physical sweepers which feels shitty although it is admittedly very good at that. It also has a much, much worse matchup into bulkier builds. Of the two main sets resto chesto is better, as many teams only have one mon that immediately threatens zama and rely on status and chipping it down if that mon faints.
 
That settles looks soo passive. Doesn't look like it would even stop bolt if you don't have roar it will just calm mind on you until it breaks through or am I wrong and brave nature gives you enough to ko with knock off before it boosts for KO?

I tyranitar for a bit with assault vest careful and it was good for stopping a lot of special threats but then does miss recovery. I used it with the therian enamorous bc they cover eachothers weaknesses pretty well. But I never broke 1600 with the team. And it's because I was using UU pokemon lol. Tyranitar just isn't that good anymore. Pursuit or the sand recovery move would save it but most mons physical and special can hit it super effectively and it would be a waste of a tera and lose its spdef boost. Wish better for him truly
I always carry iron treads for bolt. And having sand means bolt can never ko treads with weather ball or anything like that. I'm at about 1750 with it, and I'm confident it can go further. Maybe I should attach some replays so people can see what I mean
 
Ok, I’m putting a stop to this Lugia discussion. It’s gotten just as little support as Solgaleo, arguably less, and we’ve already been in circles many times about this.

Moving on, Zamazenta has seen a surprising rise in Life Orb usage lately in SPL, while Chesto Rest and standard IDBP sets still fight for highest usage. Which do you all think are the best sets? How do you feel about Zamazenta in general?
Zama really, really loves the power from a boosting item (the most relevant calcs being that LO has a 50% roll to OHKO Woger, Band can 2HKO Mola, Crunch can pressure even Bold Ghold, can actually pressure Zap with Edge/Ice Fang, etc.), and unlike basically anything else you'll see running a Life Orb it still retains a lot of its defensive utility on offensive teams even with the recoil. Like, even without investment you can take Gambit Sucker, you can reliably come in on dark moves, and outspeeding everything relevant except Pult and Deoxys is great because you can come in on fast threats that are otherwise really difficult for offense to switch into (Darkrai, Weavile, Woger, etc) at least once. So unlike things like Deoxys or Gren, running LO on Zama doesn't relegate it to an HO role where you can't really switch it in or out and have to just come in once and do as much damage before dying. It can still do most of its Zama role compression things.

Band has all those benefits too and doesn't hurt your longevity nearly as much, but the issue with Band is really that Mola exists and so it's much easier for sturdy cores to pivot around it. With LO your opponent can't just go Mola to scout, because two CCs are doing a ton if you stay in and they can still call out the Glowking/Pult/Ghold switch with Crunch. However, LO makes you much, more more vulnerable to breaking your face on a Helmet Lando/Corv. It's kinda hard to judge how good LO Zama actually is based on SPL replays because most of them are just variants of a single screens team, and most of the time it just ends up killing itself to recoil without doing much. The Ewin-Hellom game is probably the best example I found of LO Zama doing stuff? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-817244. So even with the caveat that CB/LO sets fill a pretty specific niche and most teams needing a Zama will probably rely on the more splashable Boots or setup sets, I'm still not really sure how good LO actually is?

One question I do have for anyone who's tried to build with AoA Zama, though: are there really many cases where the added damage from Heavy Slam over Iron Head on lighter opponents matters much? Because I ended up switching to Iron Head specifically because I found myself really, really vulnerable to Gambit clicking Tera Fairy and taking nothing from Heavy Slam (and Bolt, I guess, but you get smashed by boosted Thunderclap anyway so that's only really relevant if you're hard calling out a Tera). Maybe the extra damage is valuable specifically on Boots/IDBP sets where you don't have the boosting item? Would be curious to hear what other people think.
 
Zama really, really loves the power from a boosting item (the most relevant calcs being that LO has a 50% roll to OHKO Woger, Band can 2HKO Mola, Crunch can pressure even Bold Ghold, can actually pressure Zap with Edge/Ice Fang, etc.), and unlike basically anything else you'll see running a Life Orb it still retains a lot of its defensive utility on offensive teams even with the recoil. Like, even without investment you can take Gambit Sucker, you can reliably come in on dark moves, and outspeeding everything relevant except Pult and Deoxys is great because you can come in on fast threats that are otherwise really difficult for offense to switch into (Darkrai, Weavile, Woger, etc) at least once. So unlike things like Deoxys or Gren, running LO on Zama doesn't relegate it to an HO role where you can't really switch it in or out and have to just come in once and do as much damage before dying. It can still do most of its Zama role compression things.

Band has all those benefits too and doesn't hurt your longevity nearly as much, but the issue with Band is really that Mola exists and so it's much easier for sturdy cores to pivot around it. With LO your opponent can't just go Mola to scout, because two CCs are doing a ton if you stay in and they can still call out the Glowking/Pult/Ghold switch with Crunch. However, LO makes you much, more more vulnerable to breaking your face on a Helmet Lando/Corv. It's kinda hard to judge how good LO Zama actually is based on SPL replays because most of them are just variants of a single screens team, and most of the time it just ends up killing itself to recoil without doing much. The Ewin-Hellom game is probably the best example I found of LO Zama doing stuff? https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-817244. So even with the caveat that CB/LO sets fill a pretty specific niche and most teams needing a Zama will probably rely on the more splashable Boots or setup sets, I'm still not really sure how good LO actually is?

One question I do have for anyone who's tried to build with AoA Zama, though: are there really many cases where the added damage from Heavy Slam over Iron Head on lighter opponents matters much? Because I ended up switching to Iron Head specifically because I found myself really, really vulnerable to Gambit clicking Tera Fairy and taking nothing from Heavy Slam (and Bolt, I guess, but you get smashed by boosted Thunderclap anyway so that's only really relevant if you're hard calling out a Tera). Maybe the extra damage is valuable specifically on Boots/IDBP sets where you don't have the boosting item? Would be curious to hear what other people think.

252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 272-320 (94.1 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 180-214 (62.2 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 354-416 (122.4 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 234-278 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I tried Iron Head Zamazenta for a while, but yeah there are some really key heavy slam breakpoints.
 
252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 272-320 (94.1 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 180-214 (62.2 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 354-416 (122.4 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 234-278 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I tried Iron Head Zamazenta for a while, but yeah there are some really key heavy slam breakpoints.
the fact heavy slam isnt even a guaranteed ohko is insane. Its not even just this, they randomly gave val like very reliable physdef that lets it tank things it has no right to, which makes me wonder has anyone tried a slightly bulkier val set to capitalize on that?
 
A set I've been having fun with is Tera Blast Fairy Gliscor. You can flip the matchup against Great Tusk, Dragonite, and Zamazenta. What I like most is that Fairy Gliscor is very hard to hit supereffectively because the most common steel types and poison types like Gholdengo, Kingambit, and Pecharunt are outsped and hit by Earthquake. The advantage this has over Tera Fairy Roaring Moon is that it gets recovery without sacrificing a moveslot, in addition to an immunity to status.
:sv/Gliscor:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Tera Blast
- Knock Off
 
the fact heavy slam isnt even a guaranteed ohko is insane. Its not even just this, they randomly gave val like very reliable physdef that lets it tank things it has no right to, which makes me wonder has anyone tried a slightly bulkier val set to capitalize on that?
I've been a big fan of PhysDef invested Valiant on a CM set for awhile. It seriously fucking rips, and with CM patching up the boosting issue it lets you outright live hits that no one would expect from a Valiant to do. I haven't done a team with it recently, but in the past it let you do some truly wacky shit
 
I've been a big fan of PhysDef invested Valiant on a CM set for awhile. It seriously fucking rips, and with CM patching up the boosting issue it lets you outright live hits that no one would expect from a Valiant to do. I haven't done a team with it recently, but in the past it let you do some truly wacky shit
let me tell you something. If valiant had draining kiss, you know i would be running that shit on a good 40% of my teams. mind passing me the spread you used?
 
My favourite Zamazenta set is easily AV. You get 400 in each defense, lmao. This guy can tank everything for days and even trade into stuff like Enamorus or chipped Iron Valiant. Scarf Enamorus Moonblast only does like 60. One of, if not THE best overall Kyurem counter.

371 @ Assault Vest
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dark/Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 248 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge

Enough speed for Roaring Moon/Cinderace.
 
(approved by Finchinator)

So I mayyyy have made a mistake...

Redoing the survey, the questions are the same but I ask for exact ELO instead of an ELO range. Sorry for the inconvenience, and thanks to everyone for filling this out!

LINK

Just bumping this really quick because I need more responses! The survey is just 2 questions about OU. If you filled out the first one I posted (the one I’m not replying to) please fill this one out too if you can, I had to redo it. Thanks!

SURVEY LINK
 
Lately, I've been casually laddering OU to figure out the ever important question of what types are the best to brainlessly spam on the OU ladder. You all already know that DarkSpam and FairySpam are the two best spam types in the game as proven time and time again in tournament and in ladder so I don't need to comment on those, but I figured it would be fun to see if there are any other types that are lowkey underrated when it comes to spamming them on Bulky Offense/HO. Might eventually create a personal tierlist for the heck of it, but I figured I'd share with y'all the results I've had so far.

RockSpam: :Iron Boulder: :Ogerpon-Cornerstone: :Tyranitar: :Avalugg-Hisui:

If I were to describe RockSpam in two words, it would be HOLY ASS. Despite hitting 5 types super effective with your coverage, having decent to great targets to smack up in the tier like Kyurem and the birds, and usually having great coverage to complement rock type, you'd be surprised at how bad this type is (at least in my experience). I think the crux of the issue is that rock types genuinely have 0 defensive utility in the tier, and so many mons just poke a shit ton of holes into your team that it's insane. In particular, I found Well-Spring to be a huge pain in the ass cuz it does such a good job at breaking through the defensive holes that stacking two rock types creates. Also doesn't help that you only have two mons on Rock that have 100% accurate stab. Cornerstone is definitely the bright spot of this type comp since its fast but also actually hits hard, and I had the most success pairing it with Band Tar to occasionally pull off a sweep. Still, I don't think the upside of Rock's offenses are enough to compensate for the sheer ass the best mons on the type are at being defensively sound.

Iron Boulder, on the other hand, is complete ass. Holy fuck, I do not get how this thing is still ranked B- on the VR. Hits like a complete wet noodle, it never 2HKOs any of the mons you need it to, gets OHKOed by a light breeze, and its amazing speed tier is legitimately wasted on it. Genuinely might be the worst mon I've ever had the displeasure of playing with since unlike most shitmons, you actually expect Iron Boulder to do something. Avalugg-Hisui was also something I fucked around with for a bit. Stole the lead Avalugg tech from an aim video, and its lowkey pretty funny to use in the leadslot. I wouldn't call it good by any stretch of the imagination, but plenty of ladder kids underestimate how much damage output loaded dice Avalugg can shit out.

Rating: D Tier --> Ass


BirdSpam: :Zapdos-Galar: :Gliscor: :Salamence: :Dragonite: :Roaring Moon:

BirdSpam is a certified Smogon classic, so you know I had to try it next. That being said, despite its historic bustedness, BirdSpam is weird af in Gen 9. You got a bunch of really good mons with the flying type, but practically none of them are capable of using their Flying Type offensively. Lando and Dnite don't got reliable flying stab. Hurricane is not a real move so none of the Gen 1 Legendary Birds, Iron Jugulis etc are helpful. A lot of the really cracked Flying Attackers have to waste tera to be able to use Flying Type which puts it in this weird and inflexible spot when it comes to teambuilding. Despite that, you do have some standouts. Zapdos-G got some goated coverage and hits hard with the band but its 100 speed tier is painfully slow this gen (losing to Wellspring is not a good look). You could theoretically justify running Dual Wingbeat on Gliscor but I don't know if I would bother. Salamence and Dragonite can put in some work as Ddance sweepers, but Roaring Moon might unironically be BirdSpam's strongest warrior this gen with Booster Acro, so I just ended up using Zapdos-G and Roaring Goon as the bird-spam template.

I genuinely can't tell if this type is a bad spam type or not because of how awkward it was to build with, but it did decently enough in my experience. That being said, I think the strength's of flying plus the busted nature of Roaring Goon at least makes this a pretty damn decent type in hands of an actually skilled player, so I'd say that you should try this one out if you want to try your hand at an unorthodox team comp.

Rating: B Tier --> Might be good but I'm not good enough for it :(

BugSpam: :Scizor: :Lokix:

On paper, you might say that BugSpam is the worst offensive spam type in the game considering the only worthwhile type you hit SO is Dark, and that's what I thought would happen initially too. In practice, I actually think BugSpam is a lot better than you might think. Scizor and Lokix are the only two mons I'd bother with for this playstyle, but they actually do a decent job at pressuring their common checks with Knock and U-Turn. More importantly though, Scizor has actual use defensively even if you're rocking the classic CB BulletPunch. Lando + Samu + Iron Crown is one of the most solid cores out there, and in my experience, Scizor can reasonably fit into the Iron Crown slot provided you slot in a fairy type to take care of the stuff Scizor can't cover that Crown can. I used Haterene to do that, and I honestly might start using that 4 mon core more since it was so solid. Haterene + Taunt Lando is just amazing at aggressively keeping hazards off without the need for a Rapid Spinner, and Lokix and Scizor put in the work through U-Turn cycling down the team and fucking up their offensive mons with priority. Special shout out to all the midladder stall teams I faced cuz Scizor + Lokix Knock + U-Turn directly into Haterene was basically a guaranteed 6-0.

Haven't tried out every type to form an opinion, but I genuinely think BugSpam is better than RockSpam on account of Scizor being the giga-goat and Lokix its greatest disciple. That being said, I'll tentatively slot it into C Tier for now.


BugSpam: C-Tier (but better than I expected!)
 
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