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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
This is far from a matter of whether or not you can do something. I'm well acquainted with what's possible in this regard - did you know doing so in specifically Black and White is actually a gigantic pain in the ass?
I'm more considering the details of executing that idea. There are a fair few ways to play these very basic switch-flip type hypotheticals, but I'm not super interested in the result of doing so alone.
In that case, I'd take a closer look at the Orre games' rematches, Mt. Battle, Emerald, and Platinum, to a lesser extent.
These are the closest that you'd get to constant, regular double battles without the Shadow mon dynamic.
The thing about developing an entire game around it would also run into a situation like this, where you can just barrel through common trainers. Personally, I don't think that's entirely a problem. People need matches to put theories to the test and practice. It also lulls the player into a sense of safety and confidence so the harder challenges have an amplified impact.
The simple switch flip is but the first step. It gives a framework to work with.
Yeah Emerald is absolutely chock-full of double battles. Obviously the majority are singles but literally every area has at least one, and in most cases two or three or four, opponents who can be fought as a pair. Not just routes but even locations like the Trick House, Mt Pyre, and every single gym... and ofc all the Gym Leader rematches are fought as double battles too, they're a lot of fun. It's kind of the standard for how other games should be imo.
I don’t see the point in nitpicking or trying to rationalize every single decision Pokemon makes… like you wanna know why Mega Rayquaza doesn’t need any item? Because they wanted it to be more powerful and broken in competitive, and it’s cool.
You wanna know why regional forms exist some places but not others? They wanna capitalize on nostalgia without replacing the original.
Also in Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 they were clearly building towards something as those games had a ton of double battles, and even triple battles in the B2W2. But then there was that direction change post-gen 5
You wanna know why regional forms exist some places but not others? They wanna capitalize on nostalgia without replacing the original.
Also in Emerald, Platinum, and B2W2 they were clearly building towards something as those games had a ton of double battles, and even triple battles in the B2W2. But then there was that direction change post-gen 5
I feel like you contradicted yourself as you did rationalize Mega Rayquaza specifically, since you could say the same thing to the Primal Forms and the Mega Mewtwo forms, and Mega Rayquaza managed to be beyond broken even in VGC.
People nitpick or rationalize the big things, like how viable a Pokémon is in-game or competitive, for a reason. When it goes as far as people constantly nitpick the smallest things that don’t really harm the fun, or rationalize the big negatives that is either detrimental or contrived, then that’s where the issue arises.
I mean like an in-game/canon rationalization, I should have clarified. I meant it in the context that I’d be fine with new Mega and Regional forms in Z:A even if it didn’t make “canon” sense. There’s other contexts, that’s just the currently relevant one.
I feel officially VGC needs 6 tiers available all the time
-Restricted (2 Legendaries at max)
-Modified Restricted (above + no DLC mons)
-Modified RegH (no Legendaries/Paradoxes)
-Local dex Retricted (no transfering from other games)
-Local Dex Modified Restricted
-Local Dex Modified RegH
Part of the issue later gens is how powercreep pressured the same teams to revolve around restricted mons, but I feel variety still could have em. So just make a separate tier to play in. It'd allow weaker mons to shine in the "RegH" tier
It'd also force GF to be way more aware of what mon is dominating VGC for lower tiers, then potentially balance
Or GF can simply ignore that and make the problem worse to encourage DLC
-Restricted (2 Legendaries at max)
-Modified Restricted (above + no DLC mons)
-Modified RegH (no Legendaries/Paradoxes)
-Local dex Retricted (no transfering from other games)
-Local Dex Modified Restricted
-Local Dex Modified RegH
Part of the issue later gens is how powercreep pressured the same teams to revolve around restricted mons, but I feel variety still could have em. So just make a separate tier to play in. It'd allow weaker mons to shine in the "RegH" tier
It'd also force GF to be way more aware of what mon is dominating VGC for lower tiers, then potentially balance
So I tried the Battle Frontier in Emerald for the first time last year.
One of the worst game modes I have ever played. Pokemon Stadium 25+ years ago was better if I would compare it.
One of the worst game modes I have ever played. Pokemon Stadium 25+ years ago was better if I would compare it.
agreed, i think hms are fundamentally a cool concept that just wasn't given enough thought over the generations. its cool to have your mons help you on your adventure, and in gen 1, aside from flash, they were fine moves and most mons didnt learn 4 useful moves anyways. but then, despite movepools getting better and better, more hms kept getting added and they were pretty much all abysmal moves. i love hoenn but having surf waterfall and dive all be mandatory is just completely idiotic lol
Yeah, I also think the fact they were limited and had very specific archetypes helped a lot:
cut -> straight obstacle remover. its a move with bad bp but that was focused for early/mid game. as you advance, you see no cut trees.
strength -> late game obstacle remover. often more engaging in that its related to strength puzzles, and is relegated to late game/post game stuff: as such, its a better move you're much more comfortable keeping around
surf -> mid game traversal. very useful move that makes you not feel bad about needing to use it for traversal, learned by many monsters including as good coverage.
flash -> optional move, who is pretty bad but also very limited. its asking the player if they prefer convenience or doing it the hard way (blind). rock tunnel can be completed and 100% without flash, but flash gives you convenience by sacrificing a resource (moveslot)
fly -> a better move that also asks if you prefer convenience or not. its easier to slot as a move similar to surf, and very useful
But then as gens followed, you have a bunch of extra hms you have to handle, making this balance completely broken. Not only that, but a lot of them are just mechanical copies of the above moves!!!
rock smash, whirlpool, waterfall, rock climb? mechanically the same function as cut: they are simple obstacle removers/skippers
defog? thats just flash (removing inconvenience from an area)
dive? that's fancy surf
Another thing they miss the mark is the balance that gen 1 had with placement of hm usage. the fact later games would make you carry cut copies until the end of the game is stupid as hell. cut was made for early game! why are we being forced to use all these hm moves all the time instead of transitioning them??
HMs get substantially better if you don’t have to reuse them to access things later in the game. It’s one thing when your level 3 Rattata has to learn Cut, and it’s another when you need to backtrack through a route to catch a Postgame legendary and you’ve already used a Super Repel, only to realize you have to choose between giving a good Pokemon a useless move, and going back to the Pokemart to add your hm slave to your party.
That's true of the moves themselves, but personally I love backtracking through old areas and finding new stuff.
Johto is a great region for this - there's Cuttable trees on almost every route and practically every area before Ecruteak has a pond or river or beach in it. Union Cave in particular is a delightful trove of secrets. Even Whirlpool gives you access to a few trainers and items otherwise hidden away. Annoying as it was that they locked evolution items behind it, the addition of Rock Climb areas in HGSS felt 100% in keeping with the originals.
It was kind of the challenge for me, and still is when I replay those games - I could take my whole team (but potentially overwrite their more useful moves with HMs) or leave a couple of them behind in exchange for a weak HM slave and/or a "catching specialist" like something fast with Sleep Powder or Hypnosis if I was trying to catch Lapras or something.
I have 2 thoughts on HMs:
In-battle, they should be utility moves, not damaging ones. Picture things like Flame Charge, Power-Up Punch, and yes, Fly. Make it so that inexperienced players are forced to add utility to their movesets rather than just spamming their strongest STAB, and in tough battles the kids might actually use set-up or stall moves when there's no other way to win. And for experienced players, HMs would then become a balance between what moves you can fit on your combat team vs which moves go to a dedicated mon you only bring along sometimes.
Out of battle, HMs should be chosen for puzzle-solving reasons rather than obstacles(even if they can be used for that). Strength is perfect as-is. But picture Rock Climb that lets you go up over vertical ledges, or Surf's interaction with Currents. "Bring Cut to get through a door" is just boring.
The execution of HM moves has always been poor, though, and I'm somewhat sad GF just decided to execute them.
In-battle, they should be utility moves, not damaging ones. Picture things like Flame Charge, Power-Up Punch, and yes, Fly. Make it so that inexperienced players are forced to add utility to their movesets rather than just spamming their strongest STAB, and in tough battles the kids might actually use set-up or stall moves when there's no other way to win. And for experienced players, HMs would then become a balance between what moves you can fit on your combat team vs which moves go to a dedicated mon you only bring along sometimes.
Out of battle, HMs should be chosen for puzzle-solving reasons rather than obstacles(even if they can be used for that). Strength is perfect as-is. But picture Rock Climb that lets you go up over vertical ledges, or Surf's interaction with Currents. "Bring Cut to get through a door" is just boring.
The execution of HM moves has always been poor, though, and I'm somewhat sad GF just decided to execute them.
Oh no, I love Johto’s hm use for the most part, I like how you use each about perfectly in proportion to its strength as a move and how it provides opportunities to go back and unlock new portions of already visited routes and caves. The Fighting Dojo guy, Ruins of Alph, those three lady trainers, are among my favorite instances in the series.
What I don’t like is when I feel like I have to repeatedly come back to these areas and use niche hms like Rock Smash and Cut, which Platinum and Hoenn made me feel at times. B2W2 postgame is pushing it a bit.
Edit: like for example, if I had to go through Whirlpool Islands multiple times for plot related reasons or to catch multiple legendaries and had to remember all the HM users needed.
I do think Rock Climb in HGSS feels unnecessary because a lot of the stuff it unlocks isn’t that cool to me, like a bunch of evolution items I wish didn’t exist in the first place. Also I understand why but wish you didn’t need flash in Cerulean Cave and Whirlpool Islands because I always forget lol
But for Red, I really appreciate how the only HM move you need to reach him is Rock Climb. Also Rock Climb has the best HM animation
I think the main thing HMs needed was designing them around puzzles and any obstacle removal being one-and-done like a lot of strength shortcuts in later games. Don't make me fish out an HM user every time I have to go back through an area. An added bonus to this would have been the ability to design to avoid Softlocks more easily and not required a specific NPC just to remove the mediocre moves if you weren't carrying specific HM mules.
My take on HMs is that their removal in Gen 7 was a massive overreaction on Game Freak's part to criticism that could have easily been resolved just by making their requirements less harsh. It honestly baffles me that they immediately nixed them altogether after years of sticking with the same old rigid system rather than try to compromise on how they work even once.
Like Bakugames said, HMs were at their best in Gen 1. Each move had clear niches and were designed around specific thresholds in the game. The lack of HM removal was a problem since it was easy to saddle a carry like your starter with a crappy move for eternity, but other than that they were implemented perfectly well. Yet after that, besides adding an HM remover in Gen 3 (and I guess Stadium 2), HMs stayed rigidly fixed in place, while the number of HMs kept ballooning, culminating in dumb bullshit like Defog and Rock Climb in Gen 4. Even in Gen 5 and 6, where the reliance on HMs was heavily decreased (except Kalos Victory Road requiring Strength at the very last minute - that was a nasty surprise back in 2013), they never altered the moves themselves or alleviated the strict rules of "this move must take a move slot and you cannot forget it without going out of your way to do so". Then Gen 7 rolled around, and they were gone with no fanfare.
HMs implement two things that I regard as important: immersion, and friction. Poke Ride and other similar mechanics offer neither, because you're essentially handed the keys to someone else's Pokemon - one that appears after nowhere and vanishes as soon as the job is done. The actual progression is similar enough to HMs, but it makes all the difference that it's not your 'mon doing it. As for friction: I think it's not only fine but good that HMs take up moveslots, because it introduces opportunity cost. I need to use this move to progress - do I give it to a team member in place of a stronger 4th move, or do I hand it off to a weaker 'mon I've caught and have them take up a team slot? Friction isn't necessarily a bad thing - I think these kinds of restrictions can be interesting and lead to some neat player expression if handled properly. There is no such decision making to be had with Ride 'mons. The best form of it are the Raidons in SV, just because they're seamlessly implemented into the flow of the game and because the Raidons are distinctly your 'mon, but I just don't think it's as interesting.
That's not to say HMs are flawless; like I pointed out before, the moves themselves never changed, and the requirements for getting rid of them are just too strict. Making them unforgettable as a means of preventing softlocks was understandable given Cinnabar Island, but that's just one move (Surf), and by the time Gen 2 rolled around, it was already an antiquated means of preventing softlocks. There is no compelling reason why a move like Defog should ever be unforgettable, and there's also not a good reason for them to never increase the power of moves like Cut or Whirlpool if they're going to continue implementing those obstacles further and further into the game. Cut being 50 BP is fine in the context of Gen 1 where you get it before the 3rd gym - it's just a slightly superior version of Tackle and stops mattering after Erika - but rapidly stops making sense when you're seeing Cut trees well into Kanto in GSC. If GF had A. dynamically changed the power of HMs in each game to match progression more evenly and/or B. removed the restriction on forgetting HMs move and simply incorporated more ways around softlocks, it wouldn't have been necessary to remove them at all - and yet they got axed in Gen 7 without even an attempt at compromise.
There is another factor that I've neglected to mention, and that's models. It's obviously much simpler to model one Sharpedo that every player will use rather than incorporating ride animations for every single species of 'mon that can use a given HM. The generic sprite/model used for HMs like Surf might also have been regarded as antiquated by this point in the 3D era, especially moving into the Switch. I think that's a more fair reason, but I think the gameplay benefits of HMs outweigh any graphical concerns (not to mention that these games aren't lookers regardless). Still, there's something to be said for a visually striking setpiece like riding a giant lizard or leaping into the air on a Basculegion's back.
Like Bakugames said, HMs were at their best in Gen 1. Each move had clear niches and were designed around specific thresholds in the game. The lack of HM removal was a problem since it was easy to saddle a carry like your starter with a crappy move for eternity, but other than that they were implemented perfectly well. Yet after that, besides adding an HM remover in Gen 3 (and I guess Stadium 2), HMs stayed rigidly fixed in place, while the number of HMs kept ballooning, culminating in dumb bullshit like Defog and Rock Climb in Gen 4. Even in Gen 5 and 6, where the reliance on HMs was heavily decreased (except Kalos Victory Road requiring Strength at the very last minute - that was a nasty surprise back in 2013), they never altered the moves themselves or alleviated the strict rules of "this move must take a move slot and you cannot forget it without going out of your way to do so". Then Gen 7 rolled around, and they were gone with no fanfare.
HMs implement two things that I regard as important: immersion, and friction. Poke Ride and other similar mechanics offer neither, because you're essentially handed the keys to someone else's Pokemon - one that appears after nowhere and vanishes as soon as the job is done. The actual progression is similar enough to HMs, but it makes all the difference that it's not your 'mon doing it. As for friction: I think it's not only fine but good that HMs take up moveslots, because it introduces opportunity cost. I need to use this move to progress - do I give it to a team member in place of a stronger 4th move, or do I hand it off to a weaker 'mon I've caught and have them take up a team slot? Friction isn't necessarily a bad thing - I think these kinds of restrictions can be interesting and lead to some neat player expression if handled properly. There is no such decision making to be had with Ride 'mons. The best form of it are the Raidons in SV, just because they're seamlessly implemented into the flow of the game and because the Raidons are distinctly your 'mon, but I just don't think it's as interesting.
That's not to say HMs are flawless; like I pointed out before, the moves themselves never changed, and the requirements for getting rid of them are just too strict. Making them unforgettable as a means of preventing softlocks was understandable given Cinnabar Island, but that's just one move (Surf), and by the time Gen 2 rolled around, it was already an antiquated means of preventing softlocks. There is no compelling reason why a move like Defog should ever be unforgettable, and there's also not a good reason for them to never increase the power of moves like Cut or Whirlpool if they're going to continue implementing those obstacles further and further into the game. Cut being 50 BP is fine in the context of Gen 1 where you get it before the 3rd gym - it's just a slightly superior version of Tackle and stops mattering after Erika - but rapidly stops making sense when you're seeing Cut trees well into Kanto in GSC. If GF had A. dynamically changed the power of HMs in each game to match progression more evenly and/or B. removed the restriction on forgetting HMs move and simply incorporated more ways around softlocks, it wouldn't have been necessary to remove them at all - and yet they got axed in Gen 7 without even an attempt at compromise.
There is another factor that I've neglected to mention, and that's models. It's obviously much simpler to model one Sharpedo that every player will use rather than incorporating ride animations for every single species of 'mon that can use a given HM. The generic sprite/model used for HMs like Surf might also have been regarded as antiquated by this point in the 3D era, especially moving into the Switch. I think that's a more fair reason, but I think the gameplay benefits of HMs outweigh any graphical concerns (not to mention that these games aren't lookers regardless). Still, there's something to be said for a visually striking setpiece like riding a giant lizard or leaping into the air on a Basculegion's back.
I think this is a really good point too. While qol additions are usually good, there is something to be said about making the player be a bit uncomfortable/suboptimal in their gameplay. I always bring up monster hunter stories for this, but I actually enjoyed the question of "if i bring my best monsties around, i wont have monsties with skills like jump/break rocks/climb to explore some areas, but the monsties that have those skills are not my best and very underleveled, what should i prioritize right now?". Its why i wish theyd add a similar system to the games lol.
I think one of the reasons they removed hms is that i think retooling them is a lot harder than you'd think for modern pokemon. for example, you can just remember any move a pokemon has learned in sv. if hms were forgettable, then all youd have to do is use the hm and then replace it with the move you had before, which pretty much removes any friction that hms had and just turns them into a 30 seconds annoyance. making them stronger helps, but also can end up with the side effect of giving people even stronger tools early game, in games that already have five million ways to make your experience easier. i do think they truly needed to be replaced, but with a system that kept its goal to make the player engage with the pokemon and field instead of ignore it completely
Said this before and will say it again: I'm sure that one day, eventually they'll ditch premade sets of ridemons entirely and just have HM-like functions mapped on a Pokemon-by-Pokemon basis. So, for example, you can just freely fly around on a winged Pokemon of your choice once you achieve a certain progress benchmark, or move around Strength boulders with a designated "strong" Pokemon like Ursaring or Conkeldurr
There's seriously no way this isn't the long-term goal and they might've even gotten around to it by now if their scheduling weren't so screwed up.
There's seriously no way this isn't the long-term goal and they might've even gotten around to it by now if their scheduling weren't so screwed up.
Honestly, make it so field moves are a category for learned moves or specific mons. That way you're not stuck with a crappy slave, but then you still need to vary team building
Like baby mons and some preevos would be barred access from it, so it'd encourage evolving stuff too
Edit: Ah, ninja'd!
Like baby mons and some preevos would be barred access from it, so it'd encourage evolving stuff too
Edit: Ah, ninja'd!
I could see broadening to more moves within a category (e.g., any slashing move can function as Cut), but I'm not currently a fan of having the standard HM suite mapped onto mons directly. Maybe some more diverse obstacles could help (needing to hack a door? letting you burn down as well as cut down trees?), but it currently comes off as being completely free if you happen to like Swampert or something, but still needing to run a full slave if you much prefer the Magnemites and Litwicks of the series.
Sheer cold/snow cloak articuno won a tournament, and fissure ting-lu was a thing at one point I think. I may have overestimated the popularity of Articuno because I saw a lot of ppl made videos on the concept.
And as for a comment I made in the Pokemon Presents thread, there was a time where in a big tournament everyone was using Urshifu/Tornadus/Flutter Mane/Chien Pao/Amoongus/Iron Hands or something similar, and there were like 8 Pokemon represented in the top ten finishers of a prominent tournament. I would like to see more diversity in teams, nothing too crazy but like maybe 4-5 good team archetypes with a few fringe strats
Maybe I’m just uneducated but I’d think you could have something like this without the games turning into some Rock/Paper/Scissors in terms of matchups, and I’m also not saying every Pokemon should be relevant.