Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Heatranator]

I don't think that this take adequately appreciates Gliscor's bulk. Yeah, it doesn't check or wall super strong offensive threats, but it tears apart balance and bulky builds like nobody's business. Balance teams without Weavile, Samurott, or IDef Corviknight lose to SD Gliscor paired with hazards on preview, and I think it is not good or healthy for a metagame to have a completely unviable playstyle. Again, Gliscor isn't the only thing preventing balance from being good this generation, but a Gliscor ban would make balance better without hurting any other playstyles significantly (stall gets hurt the most, but stall can be viable with Gliscor) and therefore the tier better as a whole

Gliscor's bulk has to be invested in order for it to adequately take hits, and if it doesn't have attack investment, it kinda doesn't hit hard enough. Like, +2 facade doesn't even 2hit ko tusk, which will be rapid spinning away your hazards or clicking ice spinner and then threatening you out. The obvious thought is "what about tera?", but gliscor wants to not tera as long as possible, since now it no longer ignores spikes, so its now going to be taking out of its longevity. Also teams without those mons absolutely can win games. Geezing is a great remover and it + mola can usually beat gliscor adaquetely enough, with mola taking its hits and geezing making gliscor switch out + removing its hazards. Tusk+encore Waterpon can usually do well against it, at least enough to out offense it. Gliscor isn't a pokemon you can wall forever, if you are trying to do that you will lose to it. Its a pokemon which you use your defensive pieces temporarily to wall it, to get your offensive pieces in to scare it out, wearing down gliscor's teammates until it can no longer break through.

Also balance is absolutely not unviable, it can absolutely work well and has shown at high level games that it can, and does work. The issue with balance is threat saturation, primarily Waterpon and Kyurem rn. But despite this, it can work.

Gliscor is simply a good mon in the metagame that punishes lazy building. No team should insta lose to gliscor. Its a powerful threat, but never have I felt it was broken (even during no kyurem meta, frankly I am of the opinion that people were building passive teams that were going to get destroyed, in time I believe people would have been easily able to account for it).

 

[Magcargo]

I don't think that this take adequately appreciates Gliscor's bulk. Yeah, it doesn't check or wall super strong offensive threats, but it tears apart balance and bulky builds like nobody's business. Balance teams without Weavile, Samurott, or IDef Corviknight lose to SD Gliscor paired with hazards on preview, and I think it is not good or healthy for a metagame to have a completely unviable playstyle. Again, Gliscor isn't the only thing preventing balance from being good this generation, but a Gliscor ban would make balance better without hurting any other playstyles significantly (stall gets hurt the most, but stall can be viable with Gliscor) and therefore the tier better as a whole

Yeah, the bulk and and damage immunity are strong against balance and stall. Its defensive utility shines much better against the passive mons like opposing defensive Scor, Clefable, and others since it can use its status + knock immunity to its advantage. However, the issue I find is that Gliscor cannot be you dedicated Ground / Flying-type as it struggles handling threats like Raging Bolt or Great Tusk that you would normally be using a Ground- or Flying-type for, due to its poor initial damage output (pre SD) and middling bulk. I feel that you typically need to run another Pokemon, like Ting-Lu or Corviknight, to handle these roles, which is fine, but can be a bit limiting during teambuilding without becoming weak to other mons like Ogerpon-W or Kyurem. Tera can help circumvent this ofc - Fairy or normal is solid for Kyurem and Water / grass can work well against Ogerpon, but it is annoying needing to rely on that.

 

[befi]

Gliscor's bulk has to be invested in order for it to adequately take hits, and if it doesn't have attack investment, it kinda doesn't hit hard enough. Like, +2 facade doesn't even 2hit ko tusk, which will be rapid spinning away your hazards or clicking ice spinner and then threatening you out. The obvious thought is "what about tera?", but gliscor wants to not tera as long as possible, since now it no longer ignores spikes, so its now going to be taking out of its longevity. Also teams without those mons absolutely can win games. Geezing is a great remover and it + mola can usually beat gliscor adaquetely enough, with mola taking its hits and geezing making gliscor switch out + removing its hazards. Tusk+encore Waterpon can usually do well against it, at least enough to out offense it. Gliscor isn't a pokemon you can wall forever, if you are trying to do that you will lose to it. Its a pokemon which you use your defensive pieces temporarily to wall it, to get your offensive pieces in to scare it out, wearing down gliscor's teammates until it can no longer break through.

Also balance is absolutely not unviable, it can absolutely work well and has shown at high level games that it can, and does work. The issue with balance is threat saturation, primarily Waterpon and Kyurem rn. But despite this, it can work.

Gliscor is simply a good mon in the metagame that punishes lazy building. No team should insta lose to gliscor. Its a powerful threat, but never have I felt it was broken (even during no kyurem meta, frankly I am of the opinion that people were building passive teams that were going to get destroyed, in time I believe people would have been easily able to account for it).

I feel like you didn't read what I said at all. First of all, it DOES have good bulk with only HP investment (doesn't die to a jolly 252 ice spinner tusk) especially when considering chip healing and protect. It's not enough bulk to beat hyper offensive mons, but that is something I addressed- since that is not where Gliscor is best. Gliscor works best as a mon to easily come in and knock boots off for its teammates which set up hazards and then it can set up an SD and sweep once everything is sufficiently chipped from hazards. Also, a lot of SD Gliscor sets sacrifice speed for extra bulk and it makes it even harder to kill for balance and bulky teams

I will concede that g-weezing does beat gliscor, but knocking it off on one switch in goes a really long way with your other hazard setters. Furthermore, mola absolutely doesn't beat gliscor at all. The very best a mola can do is waste some PP, but it gets knocked off immediately, which greatly cripples it, and lets gliscor set up SDs in its face until facade is doing 60-70%. Tusk does beat a non-teraed gliscor for sure, but every single team has a tusk answer, and tusk gradually gets chipped down and can't heal. Waterpon beats gliscor no question, but hates hazards, which gliscor is always paired with. I don't think that there aren't answers to or ways to beat gliscor and never claimed that, but the point is that it puts a difficult strain in the builder because bulkier teams have very few ways of punishing or handling SD gliscor on a hazard stack. I will say that g-weezing is one of the few mons that does this consistently and can defog, but it too will get worn down over the game without reliable healing (I'm thinking maybe a g-weezing + alo core might be cool against gliscor hazard stack)

I don't think that gliscor punishes lazy building- I actually think its restricting on the builder. Of course no team should insta-lose to gliscor- that's just bad building. But the point is that it is really difficult to build a strong balance to bulkier team that can deal with an SD gliscor team consistently. It greatly hurts those archetypes' viabilities because its so restricting. It's not that those teams can't ever beat gliscor, its that those types of teams struggle immensely

 

[sire clod]

The SD/Knock set is the one I personally take issue with thus far. Spikes/Toxic sets feel easy to play around, but the main issue I have with Gliscor (much like some other threats) is that you really can't accurately predict what it might do on some teams. I've been getting higher up on the ladder (1600 range cuz i'm tryina play more to improve vs meme) and it feels like there's a highly weird guessing game of "is this Gliscor going to set up or click protect and spike?"

The wrong guess can be disasterous, as using protect on the wrong turn means you either give it a free spike, swords dance, or similar. Even just seeing knock sometimes isn't enough to let you know what's doing due to the sheer utility they often use it for on either set. IMO, as someone that doesn't use a massive ton of speed demons on every team it feels terrible to see that stupid swords circle it when you try to scout its intentions.

Now of course there are ways to pay around this; Zama with restochesto, bulky poison types, etc. But the fact it run away with games when you're presuming its utility or spikes feels bad in a way that's not very engaging. Especially as Gliscor will usually have the raw advantage in most scenarios.

It's generally pretty easy to tell what set a Gliscor is going to be based on the loadout screen, two other potential hazard setters = scor is almost guaranteed to be SD

 

[Heatranator]

I feel like you didn't read what I said at all. First of all, it DOES have good bulk with only HP investment (doesn't die to a jolly 252 ice spinner tusk) especially when considering chip healing and protect. It's not enough bulk to beat hyper offensive mons, but that is something I addressed- since that is not where Gliscor is best. Gliscor works best as a mon to easily come in and knock boots off for its teammates which set up hazards and then it can set up an SD and sweep once everything is sufficiently chipped from hazards. Also, a lot of SD Gliscor sets sacrifice speed for extra bulk and it makes it even harder to kill for balance and bulky teams

Gliscor's bulk not being good enough for the HO matchup is a pretty big thing, meaning in those matchups, its not contributing much, if at all. When you want every pokemon on your team to contribute to every matchup, that is a big thing. Sure, gliscor can live a tusk ice spinner, but its doing 40-60% depending on tera, so its not immediately threatening it back. And that gliscor will be at pretty low health after the exchange if they don't decide to tera (which they really don't want to), so if you pressure it, it won't be able to recover as easily. And this is assuming its bulky, offensive struggles even more to take hits.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 306-362 (86.9 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
144+ SpA Slowking-Galar Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 2 SpD Gliscor: 448-528 (127.2 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I will concede that g-weezing does beat gliscor, but knocking it off on one switch in goes a really long way with your other hazard setters. Furthermore, mola absolutely doesn't beat gliscor at all.

Molas job isn't to beat gliscor, its to take its hits, and get in a teammate. And that is completely fine. In this job, mola does well.
+2 12 Atk Tera Normal Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 243-286 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
Mola in fact, is tanking that pretty well, and regenerating that off.

Tusk does beat a non-teraed gliscor for sure, but every single team has a tusk answer, and tusk gradually gets chipped down and can't heal.

Okay, so you try to out offense it before tusk is worn down too much, but that's what you should be doing in the gliscor MU.

Waterpon beats gliscor no question, but hates hazards, which gliscor is always paired with.

Well, you utilise your own hazard prevention techniques, which if you are using waterpon on balance, you will have. Something like tusk, treads, corv, geezing even talon will work well.

I don't think that there aren't answers to or ways to beat gliscor and never claimed that, but the point is that it puts a difficult strain in the builder because bulkier teams have very few ways of punishing or handling SD gliscor on a hazard stack.

But they do have multiple ways to beat SD Gliscor on hazard stack.
Alomomola
Corviknight
Darkrai
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Gholdengo
Great Tusk
Iron Valiant
Kyurem
Landorus-T
Meowscarada
Moltres
Waterpon
Pecharunt
Primarina
Hamurott
Glowking (ice beam go brrr)
Ting Lu
Zamazenta
Zapdos
Weavile
Geezing
Latios
Keldeo
Washtom
Skarmory

Now, do all of these pokemon beat Gliscor 1v1? No. Moltres and Zapdos don't like taking repeated attacks and knock off scares them, but molt can roar gliscor out while being paired with something like Tusk, and Zapdos threatens Gliscor a lot with Hurricane. Part of the way you deal with gliscor is via teaming up on it, no mon can really 1v1 it, but multiple pokemon together can beat it enough in order to stop it. Latios can't switch directly into it, but something like washtom can and pivot out so latios can tera steel safely.

I don't think that gliscor punishes lazy building- I actually think its restricting on the builder. Of course no team should insta-lose to gliscor- that's just bad building. But the point is that it is really difficult to build a strong balance to bulkier team that can deal with an SD gliscor team consistently. It greatly hurts those archetypes' viabilities because its so restricting. It's not that those teams can't ever beat gliscor, its that those types of teams struggle immensely

The issue with balance teams is that other pokemon such as Waterpon and Kyurem, which do actually have much more limited checks (especially waterpon) constrain teams way too much. Balance teams should have multiple answers I believe. The balance team I have rn has heatran+geezing+mola+ting+lokix+iron crown. I didn't specifically prepare for gliscor, but it does well into it regardless. Heatran can pressure gliscor at around mid range health with tera+trapping, geezing can stop poison heal and tera on it, mola can sponge its hits well, ting can phaze it out, lokix does lots of damage with leech life, iron crown threatens good damage with tachyon cutter. These sorta teams again, should have multiple ways to deal with gliscor.

 

[Magcargo]

I feel like you didn't read what I said at all. First of all, it DOES have good bulk with only HP investment (doesn't die to a jolly 252 ice spinner tusk) especially when considering chip healing and protect. It's not enough bulk to beat hyper offensive mons, but that is something I addressed- since that is not where Gliscor is best. Gliscor works best as a mon to easily come in and knock boots off for its teammates which set up hazards and then it can set up an SD and sweep once everything is sufficiently chipped from hazards. Also, a lot of SD Gliscor sets sacrifice speed for extra bulk and it makes it even harder to kill for balance and bulky teams

I will concede that g-weezing does beat gliscor, but knocking it off on one switch in goes a really long way with your other hazard setters. Furthermore, mola absolutely doesn't beat gliscor at all. The very best a mola can do is waste some PP, but it gets knocked off immediately, which greatly cripples it, and lets gliscor set up SDs in its face until facade is doing 60-70%. Tusk does beat a non-teraed gliscor for sure, but every single team has a tusk answer, and tusk gradually gets chipped down and can't heal. Waterpon beats gliscor no question, but hates hazards, which gliscor is always paired with. I don't think that there aren't answers to or ways to beat gliscor and never claimed that, but the point is that it puts a difficult strain in the builder because bulkier teams have very few ways of punishing or handling SD gliscor on a hazard stack. I will say that g-weezing is one of the few mons that does this consistently and can defog, but it too will get worn down over the game without reliable healing (I'm thinking maybe a g-weezing + alo core might be cool against gliscor hazard stack)

I don't think that gliscor punishes lazy building- I actually think its restricting on the builder. Of course no team should insta-lose to gliscor- that's just bad building. But the point is that it is really difficult to build a strong balance to bulkier team that can deal with an SD gliscor team consistently. It greatly hurts those archetypes' viabilities because its so restricting. It's not that those teams can't ever beat gliscor, its that those types of teams struggle immensely

Yeah, I get what your point is.

Yes, Gliscor can be oppressive against Balance and Stall. I understand the argument is against these structures and I tend to agree that against many of the standard builds - like the average Contact Bird + Dragapult + Great tusk structure, or most Mola Structures, that it does feel oppressive given its attributes - it punishes pivoting, effortlessly knocks off mons like Moltres, Gking zapdos, etc, abuses many of these teams standard Pokemon like Mola, Zapdos, Moltres, Amoonguss, Fezandipti etc, on these teams, and can use Tera to beat its handful of checks like Weavile or Darkrai. SD Scor can also almost effortlessly beat stall due to its high PP and immunity to all their progress making, with knock off to completely cripple Dozo. Corv will get chipped heavily by Rocks over time, other checks like G-Weezings are not actually reliable stops to SD Scor since they fear earthquake + doesn't actually have the tools to break through Gliscor, esp if weakened. I absolutely do not consider it a "lazy building" issue. There is a reason I gave it a 3 in the recent survey.

The reason I bring up SD Scor's performance against offense is because it feels like the SD Scor structures cannot handle enough on their own against offense while also providing it all the tools neccessary to make it oppressive against these balance and stall teams. Sure, Gliscor being able to take Tusk Ice Spinner is very nice when its set up and at full health, or has Tera in its back pocket so it can take it out. But typically, when building a SD Scor need, you need a much sturdier switch in to Tusk since Gliscor is unable to handle it on its own - same applies to Raging Bolt. You can manage this well enough with partners like Ting-Lu, Corv, etc. which can make the offensive Match-up reasonable enough. But often times, it feels like you need to rely on the same cores to compress Rocks + Spikes, which wind up leaving the team a bit frail to a few of the same types of threats, namely Strong-Ice type and Water-type attackers, a well played Zamazenta / Kingambit, etc. There are ways to patch up these weaknesses, but the teams never feel extremely sturdy against them. Thus, it makes it feel as though these Gliscor teams, while strong, are a bit match-up fishy given the issues against key offensive threats in the metagame and they just feel like they are prone to getting overwhelmed.

So my main point is that, while a well supported SD Scor feels overwhelming, its very difficult to make a well supported SD Scor team that doesn't run into issues against many common threats.

 

[UltraSword]

I don't get why all of you are complaining about Gliscor so much. The answer to all of your Gliscor problems is quite simple.

No, but seriously, while I do agree that Gliscor is an annoying little sh** it is not a broken pokemon. Its decent bulk is betrayed by a 4x weakness to ice which is one of the most common offensive types in the game, and its tera can be somewhat easily telegraphed depending on the set (which is also easy to figure out after a turn or 2) as with the swords dance set it is generally normal and with the defensive set it is generally water. In my experience, (and maybe this is because I am bad) but I have never felt intense hatred whenever I face Gliscor. Sure, sometimes I feel a little annoyed or even groan a little in my head, but I have never felt the way many players on the ban side feel, which is them rathering to rip their eyes out than play against it.

I do not think Gliscor is broken nor banworthy, but I do feel that the question we should be asking isn't whether Gliscor is broken but what actual use it provides to the tier. That is the real deciding factor of whether it deserves another suspect.

Edit: Also why the hell did I make this post so...wordy lmao

 

[befi]

I understand where you guys are coming from. I don't think Gliscor is broken, nor did I ever really claim that it was. I do think that it may warp the meta in an arguably unhealthy way. That being said, there are absolutely other mons that warp the meta much more that we aren't discussing.

But they do have multiple ways to beat SD Gliscor on hazard stack.
Alomomola
Corviknight
Darkrai
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Gholdengo
Great Tusk
Iron Valiant
Kyurem
Landorus-T
Meowscarada
Moltres
Waterpon
Pecharunt
Primarina
Hamurott
Glowking (ice beam go brrr)
Ting Lu
Zamazenta
Zapdos
Weavile
Geezing
Latios
Keldeo
Washtom
Skarmory

Now, do all of these pokemon beat Gliscor 1v1? No. Moltres and Zapdos don't like taking repeated attacks and knock off scares them, but molt can roar gliscor out while being paired with something like Tusk, and Zapdos threatens Gliscor a lot with Hurricane. Part of the way you deal with gliscor is via teaming up on it, no mon can really 1v1 it, but multiple pokemon together can beat it enough in order to stop it. Latios can't switch directly into it, but something like washtom can and pivot out so latios can tera steel safely.

To me, the most convincing argument is that Gliscor shouldn't be banned because it's not always good and game defining. The fact that there are many games which Gliscor does nothing or is even setup fodder for other mons is telling. I am still completely unconvinced by the argument above, and would hard argue that most of those mons don't beat a well built SD gliscor team (obvious example but i don't understand how you could put molt in there. It never wants to get knocked). I still think that Gliscor is a nightmare for balance and bulkier teams, again, not because of the direct immediate pressure that it puts on but because the team structures it's best on (and are also best with gliscor on them) love the "chip pressure" that it puts on the opponent.

The reason I bring up SD Scor's performance against offense is because it feels like the SD Scor structures cannot handle enough on their own against offense while also providing it all the tools neccessary to make it oppressive against these balance and stall teams. Sure, Gliscor being able to take Tusk Ice Spinner is very nice when its set up and at full health, or has Tera in its back pocket so it can take it out. But typically, when building a SD Scor need, you need a much sturdier switch in to Tusk since Gliscor is unable to handle it on its own - same applies to Raging Bolt. You can manage this well enough with partners like Ting-Lu, Corv, etc. which can make the offensive Match-up reasonable enough. But often times, it feels like you need to rely on the same cores to compress Rocks + Spikes, which wind up leaving the team a bit frail to a few of the same types of threats, namely Strong-Ice type and Water-type attackers, a well played Zamazenta / Kingambit, etc. There are ways to patch up these weaknesses, but the teams never feel extremely sturdy against them. Thus, it makes it feel as though these Gliscor teams, while strong, are a bit match-up fishy given the issues against key offensive threats in the metagame and they just feel like they are prone to getting overwhelmed.

So my main point is that, while a well supported SD Scor feels overwhelming, its very difficult to make a well supported SD Scor team that doesn't run into issues against many common threats.

Again, I am much more thoroughly convinced by Magcargo's argument which is simply that there are many instances in which Gliscor and its team structures just fall apart. It's not enough for me to say that it definitively should not be banned, and I still think it should be suspected, but there's value to the fact that SD Gliscor is not always game-breaking (it's worth noting that Gliscor itself, meaning not just the SD sets, can be put on pretty much any structure and thrive, but I would never say that's a trait that makes it broken or banworthy. I don't think that it's defensive sets add anything to the question)

 

[befi]

I don't get why all of you are complaining about Gliscor so much. The answer to all of your Gliscor problems is quite simple.

View attachment 719026

No, but seriously, while I do agree that Gliscor is an annoying little sh** it is not a broken pokemon. Its decent bulk is betrayed by a 4x weakness to ice which is one of the most common offensive types in the game, and its tera can be somewhat easily telegraphed depending on the set (which is also easy to figure out after a turn or 2) as with the swords dance set it is generally normal and with the defensive set it is generally water. In my experience, (and maybe this is because I am bad) but I have never felt intense hatred whenever I face Gliscor. Sure, sometimes I feel a little annoyed or even groan a little in my head, but I have never felt the way many players on the ban side feel, which is them rathering to rip their eyes out than play against it.

I do not think Gliscor is broken nor banworthy, but I do feel that the question we should be asking isn't whether Gliscor is broken but what actual use it provides to the tier. That is the real deciding factor of whether it deserves another suspect.

Edit: Also why the hell did I make this post so...wordy lmao

Yeah no one is really saying that its a broken offensive- the question that's being addressed is whether its healthy for the tier and meta

 

[toshimelonhead]

Gliscor's problem isn't one particular set. Its unique value is it has two distinct flavors that have mutually exclusive checks. Each flavor by itself is not close to broken. The problem is it's not always easy to tell which type it is. It could either Toxic stall to death or set up a bulky Swords Dance and beat the checks it cannot Toxic stall.

 

[Heatranator]

To me, the most convincing argument is that Gliscor shouldn't be banned because it's not always good and game defining. The fact that there are many games which Gliscor does nothing or is even setup fodder for other mons is telling. I am still completely unconvinced by the argument above, and would hard argue that most of those mons don't beat a well built SD gliscor team (obvious example but i don't understand how you could put molt in there. It never wants to get knocked). I still think that Gliscor is a nightmare for balance and bulkier teams, again, not because of the direct immediate pressure that it puts on but because the team structures it's best on (and are also best with gliscor on them) love the "chip pressure" that it puts on the opponent.

Well, most of those mons either force it out, or tank its hits in order to get those mons that can force it out.
https://pokepast.es/9a7f780862533fde
Let's take a look at this Meow+ursa balance team. Moltres kinda just switches in on gliscor, roars it out, and then can pressure something coming in. Only really glowking and maybe dragapult scare it out (dragapult doesn't like taking repeated flamethrowers, while molt can roost off most of the damage. Does it like taking knock? No. But it can switch into skarmory repeatedly and nothing on the team really can prevent rapid spin, as dragapult hates taking headlong, and meowscarada has to give up tera. Skarmory's helmet gets knocked off extremely early in most games, but tusk itself at times, so its less of an issue there. So in fact, moltres can take on gliscor decently well.

Gliscor's problem isn't one particular set. Its unique value is it has two distinct flavors that have mutually exclusive checks. Each flavor by itself is not close to broken. The problem is it's not always easy to tell which type it is. It could either Toxic stall to death or set up a bulky Swords Dance and beat the checks it cannot Toxic stall.

Well, no. If it has something like Skarmory or Hamurott on the team, then you know that its SD most likely. If there aren't any other spikes setters on the team, then its probably going to be spikes. Gliscor's set is one of the easiest things to determine, unlike something like Kyurem, which can at least somewhat flex its sets. And toxic gliscor is absolutely dealable with even if you somehow don't determine it immediately.

 

[befi]

Well, most of those mons either force it out, or tank its hits in order to get those mons that can force it out.
https://pokepast.es/9a7f780862533fde
Let's take a look at this Meow+ursa balance team. Moltres kinda just switches in on gliscor, roars it out, and then can pressure something coming in. Only really glowking and maybe dragapult scare it out (dragapult doesn't like taking repeated flamethrowers, while molt can roost off most of the damage. Does it like taking knock? No. But it can switch into skarmory repeatedly and nothing on the team really can prevent rapid spin, as dragapult hates taking headlong, and meowscarada has to give up tera. Skarmory's helmet gets knocked off extremely early in most games, but tusk itself at times, so its less of an issue there. So in fact, moltres can take on gliscor decently well.

Yeah i would just say that team is not that well suited for gliscor. It needs been spin blocking imo. also glowking beats moltres? future sight plus sludge bomb with the eventual poison does too much. Moltres does not beat that team at all

 

[Heatranator]

Yeah i would just say that team is not that well suited for gliscor. It needs been spin blocking imo. also glowking beats moltres? future sight plus sludge bomb with the eventual poison does too much. Moltres does not beat that team at all

Well, this is one of the sample teams... You can't really fit spinblocking since you will be sacrificing other MU's. Also I specifically said that glowking beats moltres, its what forces moltres out. But against that team with some level of support, moltres is able to stop gliscor enough times for a team's offensive pieces to secure the win.

 

[befi]

Well, this is one of the sample teams... You can't really fit spinblocking since you will be sacrificing other MU's. Also I specifically said that glowking beats moltres, its what forces moltres out. But against that team with some level of support, moltres is able to stop gliscor enough times for a team's offensive pieces to secure the win.

Yeah but you specifically picked this sample team and moltres literally doesnt beat it. Ursaluna also always comes in on molt because its rest talk and you also keep on acting like moltres doesn't mind taking a knock when its one of the worst mons to get knocked

 

[Heatranator]

Yeah but you specifically picked this sample team and moltres literally doesnt beat it. Ursaluna also always comes in on molt because its rest talk and you also keep on acting like moltres doesn't mind taking a knock when its one of the worst mons to get knocked

It doesn't beat the whole team, but it does stop gliscor from setting up and helps against ursa+skarm+meow. It doesn't like taking knock off, but this is a worst case scenario, if it does have to take a knock off to beat gliscor, then it can do that. And you can keep off rocks pretty reliably since there isn't a spinblocker on the team.
56+ Atk Ursaluna Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 64-76 (16.7 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 184 HP / 208 SpD Ursaluna: 112-133 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
While moltres isn't necessarily threatening ursaluna back for huge damage, luna isn't threatening it back as well (since its bulletproof, wisp cripples luna immensly).
I specifically was talking about moltres since that is what you mentioned couldn't help, when it in fact, can help against gliscor on a sample team.

Against something like the CTC sinistcha+keldeo team, sure, moltres doesn't really help that much since spinning is a lot harder. But moltres can be part of the plan to help against gliscor.

 

[Magcargo]

It doesn't beat the whole team, but it does stop gliscor from setting up and helps against ursa+skarm+meow. It doesn't like taking knock off, but this is a worst case scenario, if it does have to take a knock off to beat gliscor, then it can do that. And you can keep off rocks pretty reliably since there isn't a spinblocker on the team.
56+ Atk Ursaluna Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 64-76 (16.7 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 184 HP / 208 SpD Ursaluna: 112-133 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
While moltres isn't necessarily threatening ursaluna back for huge damage, luna isn't threatening it back as well (since its bulletproof, wisp cripples luna immensly).
I specifically was talking about moltres since that is what you mentioned couldn't help, when it in fact, can help against gliscor on a sample team.

Against something like the CTC sinistcha+keldeo team, sure, moltres doesn't really help that much since spinning is a lot harder. But moltres can be part of the plan to help against gliscor.

Nah bro, Moltres is just Gliscor Fodder. At best it can maybe delay the inevitable with Roar, but if its not getting completely destroyed by Knock, then its getting spiked + Toxic'd on. Maybe you can surprise a Gliscor by dealing a bit more damage to it with Flamethrower, but even then, its just healing that off and eventually winning. I think most players would agree that Gliscor is the biggest thing holding Moltres's (and Zapdos's) Viability back, which may also be a good thing depending on who you ask.

 

[Heatranator]

Nah bro, Moltres is just Gliscor Fodder. At best it can maybe delay the inevitable with Roar

Well, that's sorta what I'm meaning. Moltres can stop Gliscor from sweeping a couple of times by roaring it out immediately, which is usually enough against these sort of teams since you should be trying to out offense it.

 

[Quackborg]

Nah bro, Moltres is just Gliscor Fodder. At best it can maybe delay the inevitable with Roar, but if its not getting completely destroyed by Knock, then its getting spiked + Toxic'd on. Maybe you can surprise a Gliscor by dealing a bit more damage to it with Flamethrower, but even then, its just healing that off and eventually winning. I think most players would agree that Gliscor is the biggest thing holding Moltres's (and Zapdos's) Viability back, which may also be a good thing depending on who you ask.

this is why im a huge hurricane molt fan, besides hitting all those frail fire resists people love sending in on you, it can stop sd glisc from just getting +6 asw (with one or two hits)

 

[ant4456]

Not really sure what this even is implying. It’s not like its teammates exist just to soak hits for it. Or that they’re without longevity or the ability to exert pressure themself.

This is also acting like Eleki isn’t doing much damage when that simply isn’t true. And the damage it does is easy to exploit with its teammates too. Like sure it won’t drop a healthy Darkrai or Iron Moth with TBolt, but they’re also not really able to switch in (2HKOd with rocks up both are), and worst case it just Volt Switches on them into a check to them. With a good backbone on a balance team for example this wouldn’t be hard to pull off.

(Also while HDB is its best and easiest to use, there WAS some use of other non HDB sets before its ban and they DID work).



What do these spdef pivots do to stop it? If you faced for example a Magnet or Specs Eleki (both saw use before the ban) and sent in your Glowking to scout it, only for it to just Volt Switch on your switch in and bring out the appropriate response, what do you even do? This is the issue. If you can’t block its VSwitch, it’s very difficult to position against for slower teams. There’s an uncomfortable prediction game involved in trying to outsmart it and it’s not very fun (for the record, in Natdex we had Eleki legal for much longer than it was allowed here and it was no less miserable to face, and not for its power though that didn’t help).

What new checks did DLC add? Genuinely asking. The best one could argue is Raging Bolt, but that’s not much different from anything else and risks being a Volt Switch target too and also has never been weaker than it is currently with Ting Lu being a top 2-3 Mon (still good, but arguably considerably worse than it was at the start of the dlc). Regarding Protect, we have I think 4? Garg, Gliscor, Kyurem and Mola, and the only one with a positive match up is Kyurem but that’s not really a lot.



Dropping Ubers just adds to the list of Pokémon to check on top of an already lengthy sheet of them and most of those threats are dangerous already. We don’t stand to gain anything by doing it in most cases. Furthermore, not agreeing on what to look into is not really a good reason to keep rehashing the same topic that always ends up just as unproductive as arguing about who to test (almost worse since at least arguing about what’s in the tier is relevant).

You’re plenty entitled to your view on it not being that bad. I massively disagree but that’s just differing opinions at the end of the day.

What I just don’t love at the end of the day, is the way this thread almost never seems to talk about the actual meta game anymore. SPL has been ongoing for some time, ladder trends have come and gone but these very seldom seem to get focus. I mean Weavile has been crushing it in SPL and is on track to rejoin OU, Tinkaton is coming not far behind it, Meow and Rilla are dropping, there’s a lot people could focus on that’s really relevant. For me it’s just extremely frustrating how little actual “metagame discussion” seems to happen these days.

I gotta be honest, your arguments against Regieleki actually make me want it in the tier.

You're telling me you've got a Goober who can cook all of this gen's power-crept-to-fuck-and-back 999 Speed 500 Attack goons in a single slot, not choice locked, has the ability to Tera, and another viable Rapid Spinner?

Like what is the bad thing

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I gotta be honest, your arguments against Regieleki actually make me want it in the tier.

You're telling me you've got a Goober who can cook all of this gen's power-crept-to-fuck-and-back 999 Speed 500 Attack goons in a single slot, not choice locked, has the ability to Tera, and another viable Rapid Spinner?

Like what is the bad thing

The bad thing is that tthing got 999 Speed and 499 Special attack like it's still powercrept

 

[Avira]

What have people been thinking about Gliscor in the metagame? There has been some chatter in tiering circles about Swords Dance variants. I do not find pivot and Spikes sets to be problematic in the slightest right now, but we have gotten some complaints about SD / Facade / Knock / Protect.

I am not sold on it being broken personally as I find it possible to pressure, but there are some archetypes it pressures well and some limitations on team construction for sure. It is a big part of my job to both do due diligence and hear a wide range of perspectives, too, so would love to hear where people are at.

I'm far from being a good player, but I find Gliscor an unhealthy presence in the meta due to how there are so few Pokemon that reliably check both the Swords Dance sets and the support sets with Corviknight being the best option, and of course Corviknight doesn't fit on every team even though it's currently at a high point. Due to Poison Heal and its base typing making it naturally resilient against hazards, it can at times be hard to keep up sustained chip on Gliscor due to its ability to switch in and out across the battle while many of its answers don't have that same longevity.

Gliscor definitely isn't broken by conventional standards, but I find it constraining to build for in that you often need a faster Encore user, a powerful Water or Ice-type attack from a faster attacker (whether it be from either end of the spectrum and doesn't necessarily have to be STAB), Iron Defense Corviknight, or a strong wallbreaker, such as Lokix, that has the damage output to both force it out and do major damage to Gliscor's teammates after you've gotten some chip on it. Balance structures often cannot easily fit such mons on their teams.

Personally, I find Ogerpon-Wellspring easier to build for than Gliscor as I find Iron Defense Zamazenta and a hard-hitting Dragon-type Pokemon, such Dragonite or Raging Bolt, both of which are more splashable than Corv, is often enough for Ogerpon-Wellspring if you keep up hazard pressure. I guess it helps that both Dnite and Bolt have priority as well, but I find Wellspring quite a ways easier to prep for than Scor due to it having much less longevity than the flying scorpion unless it uses Synthesis or Horn Leech, both of which significantly reduce Wellspring's threat level.

As for what I would prioritize for tiering action, it'd be Kyurem (It's not close. This should be the #1 priority), Gliscor, and maybe Kingambit or Roaring Moon in that order. I find Ogerpon-Wellspring healthy for the meta for her being a potent, but not overly so, breaker that has clear downsides, such as not being able to negate hazards chip with Heavy-Duty Boots as well as her Tera Type being locked to Water, which makes her more predictable than a number of other top threats such as Zamazenta, Kingambit, and Roaring Moon.

 

[Karmazz]

I'm far from a good player, but I find Gliscor an unhealthy presence in the meta due to how there are so few Pokemon that reliably check both the Swords Dance sets and the support sets with Corviknight being the best option, and of course Corviknight doesn't fit on every team even though it's currently at a high point. Due to Poison Heal and its base typing making it naturally resilient against hazards, it can at times be hard to keep up sustained chip on Gliscor due to its ability to switch in and out across the battle while many of its answers don't have that same longevity.

Gliscor definitely isn't broken by conventional standards, but I find it constraining to build for in that you often need a faster Encore user, a powerful Water or Ice-type attack from a faster attacker (whether it be from either end of the spectrum and doesn't necessarily have to be STAB), Iron Defense Corviknight, or a strong wallbreaker, such as Lokix, that has the damage output to both force it out and do major damage to Gliscor's teammates after you've gotten some chip on it. Balance structures often cannot easily fit such mons on the team.

Personally, I find Ogerpon-Wellspring easier to build for than Gliscor as I find Iron Defense Zamazenta and a hard-hitting Dragon-type Pokemon, such Dragonite or Raging Bolt, both of which are more splashable than Corv, is often enough for Ogerpon-Wellspring if you keep up hazard pressure. I guess it helps that both Dnite and Bolt have priority as well, but I find Wellspring quite a ways easier to prep for than Scor due to it having much less longevity than the flying scorpion unless it uses Synthesis or Horn Leech, both of which significantly reduce Wellspring's threat level.

As for what I would prioritize for tiering action, it'd be Kyurem, Gliscor, and maybe Kingambit or Roaring Moon in that order. I find Ogerpon-Wellspring healthy for the meta for her being a potent, but not overly so, breaker that has clear downsides, such as not being to further boost her power with a boosting item or not being able to negate hazard with Heavy-Duty Boots, as well as her Tera Type being locked to Water, which makes her more predictable than a number of other top threats.

I'm further from a good player but I personally think Gliscor is fine rn. It's true that there aren't a plethora of mons that check both Gliscor sets, but that doesn't really mean anything. It's only an issue if by guessing wrong and giving away a free turn, you potentially immediately lose the game (Kyurem...). Gliscor does not have the level of initial power to make that an issue. If you switch into Clefable expecting spikes but they SD instead, no worries. The most you lose is one mon and only if you're somehow using a balance team without something that switches into +2 Scor.

I'm going to focus on SD Scor and ignore spikes because I think it's completely fine in this meta. Anyone who thinks spikes Scor is an issue in big 2025 is deluding themselves considering its not even a top 2 spiker. Sure if your SD Scor answer gets toxiced that sucks, but it also means they don't have an SD Scor.

You mention that it's hard to fit SD Scor counters on balance teams, but I completely disagree. For offensive checks you have Darkrai, Kyurem, Weav, Meow, W-Oger, and nicher choices like Keldeo and Wake. All of these mons are good on balance, outspeed, many use boots, and all except Oger threaten clean ohkos on fast Scor. Spdef scor can live unboosted surfs from the waters sure, but in return it's outsped and threatened by a lot more of the meta like Samu and Tusk.

Defensively, idef Corv destroys Scor, and u-turn variants give free switches into offensive checks. Idef Skarm is the same but uglier. Dozo absolutely cooks Scor. G-Weezing might be ass, sure, but it still checks non-eq Scor. Some mons that are unafraid of Scor can slot on ice coverage, like ice beam Clef or SD ice fang opposing Scors. Alternatively, if you can knock it before you get knocked, sticky barb Clef ruins Scor's day.

I will fully admit the defensive list is rather barren, but Gliscor's whole deal is being good into balance. The answers are not so few and far between that it warrants a ban, and most of the defensve answers do have good longevity. Additionally, I was only considering hard counters; there are more checks like idef/ice fang zama, balloon ghold, and dnite that I didn't mention earlier.

 

[prav33n]

ngl, imo either we should get rid of tera blast from the tier or suspect roaring moon I personally feel the variety different tera's it can run plus ev's it runs is is too stupid to counter. Tera fairy is busted with blast is almost an auto win, ground can be so stupid if not prepared for, fire is a legit tera now which is crazy and flying is always going to be threating. What do y'all think am I tripping?

 

[tommytt22]

Cracked 1700s with doom desire jirachi half a dozen times in the past week. Somehow this team feels both utterly dependent on wish from alomomola but also completely burdened by wishfish. You're really limited in options when it comes to roaring moon. I don't see a way to fix the issues without a complete overhaul so I'll just leave it where it is.

https://pokepast.es/ae84f7e9953c6174

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2313659950-eb7bqvtgrd2bb1se9o231qtv9poas3ppw

Long story short: doom desire jirachi is SOLID. Not A rank but at a minimum B-. Given the other sets it can run I'd think jirachi could slot into B tier. Frankly with all the paralysis running around I'm surprised there aren't more iron head variants flinching their way through OU. Psychic OHKO on tusk is quite lovely. And you just never feel conflicted about clicking doom desire like you would with future sight if theres dark types on the field.

 

[tommytt22]

ngl, imo either we should get rid of tera blast from the tier or suspect roaring moon I personally feel the variety different tera's it can run plus ev's it runs is is too stupid to counter. Tera fairy is busted with blast is almost an auto win, ground can be so stupid if not prepared for, fire is a legit tera now which is crazy and flying is always going to be threating. What do y'all think am I tripping?

It's disgusting, I'd like it gone before kyurem personally.