Metagame Frantic Fusions | Survey @ Post #484!

I only see 2 Regen users per team anyways, anything else is greedy and often skimping on something you need to handle the actually batshit insane stuff in the tier

Between Adaptability Latias, Sheer Force Cinderace, Lokix anything, Tough Claws legion (and don't get me started on Weather) I am surprised people have this much of an issue. I am often feeling overwhelmed at the sheer amount of offensive threats in the tier, and people want more stuff unbanned?
 
Raoul Sanchez said:
Good luck this is Frantics 3rd time being OMoTM and despite players requesting an ability clause every iteration there's always some case being argued about the meta being "healthy" as is.

Pecharunt drives the nail in the coffin of this argument for me. 70% of my games I face 3-4 regen(vest on half) mons, pecha and or corv and sometimes some HO breaker. Matches just are players dancing around with regen mons, setting hazards and chipping or knocking till their HO mon can breakthrough. Sure it is fine that there's an OM where stall and very BULKY balance actually performs well but it's currently not a fun ladder especially for beginners.
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Yeah I had lots of fun ideas and just loaded into corv + whatever regen mon on every single team and couldn’t break any of it. In my mind if I’m playing an omotm I want to mess around with fun stuff, not just run standard things with regenerator stapled on lol. Corviknight actually just triggers negative responses in my brain now. Give us more defoggers please I_I
 
Schpoonman said:
Psychic Noise doesn't block Regenerator.

Edit: Well this looks weird now. This OM needs some sort of Ability Clause, or action on Regenerator.
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perhaps deleting my post suggesting psychic noise as a counter to regenerator shouldn't have been deleted, but I didn't want to leave misinformation up on the thread.

G-Luke said:
I only see 2 Regen users per team anyways,
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I see a few teams with three, though most aren't Stall.

I think there's a massive disconnect between low ladder and high ladder where low ladder is unable/unwilling to play in a way to break through regen cores, while high ladder understands things that are actually problematic in the meta (namely, adapt latias/rbolt and rmoon) without realizing that regen cores gatekeep potential balance structures that might help with those pokemon without resorting to banning.

Either way, I don't think there's much point in yapping. If you don't like regen spam, as UT told me in PM on the subject...

Either bring it up directly with tier leaders (lol) or stop playing the meta.
 
Here is my case for 2ac:
I do like Frantic Fusions because there is no cap, but I do believe we've reached a point where something has to be done. I believe 2 AC is the fix to this. Since I've come to the conclusion I've basically only been using 2 regen at most, a self limit. When I build new teams from scratch the urge to fit just one more is very strong, it would make the team almost perfect. I believe many builders are like this. I find myself losing regen wars just because of this limitation. My team's ability to dance around other teams also feels weaker. Based on my experience using 2ac in a meta where it's not enforced, I do believe 2ac would be a very valid choice in nerfing regenerator. I've never found myself using more than 2 abilities of another kind, or even the will too. Ignoring the fact many strong abilities only have a handful of good donators. The casualties from 2ac would be minimal if not nothing, it is a direct regenerator nerf.

From Sawkasm on OMcord:
"2AC seems like the healthiest option. Regen cores are great to glue teams together, but having more than 2 let‘s a team blanket check way too many mons way too effortlessly". This sums up my general idea, and I can confirm 3 is a very strong amount.

2AC basically forces people to choose from 2 options: 2 regenvests/specially focused regen mons, or a balance between a specially defensive/regenvest and a physically defensive one. Without an AC they can choose 2 specially ones and just slap regen Tusk on, possibly the best physically defensive regen mon.

Also I've heard some "ban regenerator" talk recently. No, if you think this please re-evaluate your opinion because it is objectively wrong. Thankfully it seems to be the minority still.
 
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I believe the council should implement, suspect, or include on a survey the possibility of implementing a 2 ability clause. This would have a positive impact on the tier by encouraging creativity and eliminating one of the most broken archetypes (3-4+ Regenerator spam) from the tier.

Part 1: The current meta is suffering and Regenerator is not broken
Regenerator itself is not broken, and the council has supported this viewpoint as well. Regenerator allows increased flexibility defensively and offensively with Pokemon that lack recovery, strengthening all playstyles to some degree and creating new metagame staples such as Regenerator Great Tusk and Regenerator Primarina. The reason why these Pokemon are not broken is because they themselves are often only annoying and rely on their teammates to tank supereffective hits.

But I digress. The problem arises when people begin to uncreatively spam Regenerator on 3+ Pokemon (yes, I'm a hypocrite) in a team and then easily switch between Regenerator Pokemon to perfectly wall the opponent. This results in extremely boring gameplay of constantly switching Pokemon to create games reaching upwards of 200+ turns for extremely boring draws (balance vs stall) or being helplessly overwhelmed by hazards while trying to damage Regenerator Pokemon properly (HO/stall vs hazard stall), which is furthered by common Regenerator Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Goodra-Hisui, Iron Treads, etc being able to spam Knock Off with almost no punishment aside from the occasional Flame Body. HO players have to resort to using extreme wallbreakers, such as banded Roaring Moon, Choice Specs Raging Bolt/Latios, Rocky Payload Ogerpon-Cornerstone, etc, some of which are the most broken Pokemon to ever be allowed and are only allowed (in my opinion) because of how good Great Tusk and Regenvesters are. Normal stall/setup Pokemon that would simply be nuisances such as Primarina, Goodra-Hisui, etc, suddenly become threats that you somehow need to fully counter while somehow checking the other Regenerator Pokemon, otherwise that Pokemon will simply come back in and wall/set up on you eventually.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2314701755?p2 (Triple Regen vs Triple Regen hazard stack)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2312650861?p2 (Triple Regen winning despite losing 2 Pokemon)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2311196506 (307 turn draw)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2168602071 (300 turn draw)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2065976809
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2066740592
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2214654910 (hidin)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2315547446

Part 2: Impact and why we should go against policy
Two similar metagames that modify abilities have an ability clause already: AAA and National Dex AAA. AAA has AC, while National Dex AAA has 2AC. Furthermore, if Regenerator is fully banned, then that will fully eliminate stall as a viable strategy and likely require even more bans on Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, Latios, and other broken sweepers that can be walled by Regenerator Pokemon. Meanwhile, if 2AC or maybe even AC is implemented, Toxapex could be unbanned, Regenerator spam fully disappears, and players will be encouraged to use other defensive abilities, such as Magic Guard, Flame Body, Tablets of Ruin, etc. Stall will still be able to run 1 physical and 1 special Regenvester, and although some wallbreakers might still have to be banned, that is much less chaotic than completely destroying stall teams and then turning the meta into HO spam.
 
We've decided to put up some elements to be suspect tested in Frantic Fusions! There's been a lot of unsatisfaction with the metagame being quite stagnant and repetitive for how much it's in the spotlight, so some action is now on the table. It's on you all to decide which will be targeted!

HERE is the link to the survey; it closes on March 15/16th, with the suspect test planned to go up shortly after it's conclusion. More details will come soon on its progress!

also zastra stepped down
 
InkyDarkBird said:
I believe the council should implement, suspect, or include on a survey the possibility of implementing a 2 ability clause. This would have a positive impact on the tier by encouraging creativity and eliminating one of the most broken archetypes (3-4+ Regenerator spam) from the tier.

Part 1: The current meta is suffering and Regenerator is not broken
Regenerator itself is not broken, and the council has supported this viewpoint as well. Regenerator allows increased flexibility defensively and offensively with Pokemon that lack recovery, strengthening all playstyles to some degree and creating new metagame staples such as Regenerator Great Tusk and Regenerator Primarina. The reason why these Pokemon are not broken is because they themselves are often only annoying and rely on their teammates to tank supereffective hits.

But I digress. The problem arises when people begin to uncreatively spam Regenerator on 3+ Pokemon (yes, I'm a hypocrite) in a team and then easily switch between Regenerator Pokemon to perfectly wall the opponent. This results in extremely boring gameplay of constantly switching Pokemon to create games reaching upwards of 200+ turns for extremely boring draws (balance vs stall) or being helplessly overwhelmed by hazards while trying to damage Regenerator Pokemon properly (HO/stall vs hazard stall), which is furthered by common Regenerator Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Goodra-Hisui, Iron Treads, etc being able to spam Knock Off with almost no punishment aside from the occasional Flame Body. HO players have to resort to using extreme wallbreakers, such as banded Roaring Moon, Choice Specs Raging Bolt/Latios, Rocky Payload Ogerpon-Cornerstone, etc, some of which are the most broken Pokemon to ever be allowed and are only allowed (in my opinion) because of how good Great Tusk and Regenvesters are. Normal stall/setup Pokemon that would simply be nuisances such as Primarina, Goodra-Hisui, etc, suddenly become threats that you somehow need to fully counter while somehow checking the other Regenerator Pokemon, otherwise that Pokemon will simply come back in and wall/set up on you eventually.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2314701755?p2 (Triple Regen vs Triple Regen hazard stack)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2312650861?p2 (Triple Regen winning despite losing 2 Pokemon)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2311196506 (307 turn draw)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2168602071 (300 turn draw)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2065976809
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2066740592
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2214654910 (hidin)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9franticfusions-2315547446

Part 2: Impact and why we should go against policy
Two similar metagames that modify abilities have an ability clause already: AAA and National Dex AAA. AAA has AC, while National Dex AAA has 2AC. Furthermore, if Regenerator is fully banned, then that will fully eliminate stall as a viable strategy and likely require even more bans on Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, Latios, and other broken sweepers that can be walled by Regenerator Pokemon. Meanwhile, if 2AC or maybe even AC is implemented, Toxapex could be unbanned, Regenerator spam fully disappears, and players will be encouraged to use other defensive abilities, such as Magic Guard, Flame Body, Tablets of Ruin, etc. Stall will still be able to run 1 physical and 1 special Regenvester, and although some wallbreakers might still have to be banned, that is much less chaotic than completely destroying stall teams and then turning the meta into HO spam.
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Thank you for post both sides of the argument inky. While I do see the need of a couple tanky regen mons to deal with the insufferable HO threats like moon and lati. However, doesn't part 2 prove the point of why changes need to be made. Regen has become so centralised that it lost its initial purpose and now being spammed and abused.

A 2AC implementation would literally give reason to ban the insanely strong offensive mons. Roaring moon is disgustingly broken hitting base speeds with fusions that are straight up insane requiring a scarf to revenge (if it hasn't come in on a mon it can DD on).
 
hidin said:
We've decided to put up some elements to be suspect tested in Frantic Fusions! There's been a lot of unsatisfaction with the metagame being quite stagnant and repetitive for how much it's in the spotlight, so some action is now on the table. It's on you all to decide which will be targeted!

HERE is the link to the survey; it closes on March 15/16th, with the suspect test planned to go up shortly after it's conclusion. More details will come soon on its progress!

also zastra stepped down
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Happy to see the tier leadership listening and taking a look at Regenerator & Ability Clause instead of just brushing it off.

Already spoke on Regen & AC so I'm not gonna say much else, except I have no idea how someone would suspect test a clause. Would it be implemented and then we vote on if the meta was better or not with it?

Not really seen a ton of Gholdengo or Raging Bolt myself, so I can't say much on them.

That said, please disregard anything I said earlier about unbanning Annihilape, as I failed to realize that it would easily be able to abuse Regenerator itself to charge up Rage Fist, and the last thing we need is for it to spam Rage Fist after getting a ton of boosts to it while healing them off with U-Turn.
 
Summing up my thoughts on Gholdengo and Regen. I can't say much on Raging Bolt as my main team has probably the best answer to it in the meta in Iron Treads.

Before I start this section I will say I haven't seen much offensive ability Gholdengo on the ladder, so take what I say with a grain of salt. That said, I do think there needs to be some distinction between a Gholdengo ban or a Good as Gold ban here as well, as Gholdengo itself doesn't feel like an offensive threat on the levels of Roaring Moon or Ogerpon-Cornerstone. What makes me especially not like the idea of banning Gholdengo itself is that there's things that I feel it can do that others can't really fill in for (for example, it's really good into non-Scrappy Great Tusk). There are some sets where you can't really tell whether the Gholdengo is Good as Gold or a different ability (if you inherit from a Lati, for example). This is why I see Good as Gold as more of a problem than Gholdengo itself, if at all. I personally don't have much of an opinion on Good as Gold, but I think if people think Gholdengo is a problem then it probably stems from the ability.

I've been running a triple regenerator team, and I can tell you for a fact that triple regen is broken, and 2 ability clause absolutely should be implemented. Having three team members with regenerator feels like I have the defensive switch-in for everything, and I'm able to get away with switching into my answer without much progress being made on my side. This will snowball into other things getting banned of course, but if it's healthier for the meta, then I think that's a good thing. As said above, Regenerator itself being banned means that certain playstyles just vanish because they simply aren't as good as the other playstyles. Truthfully, I don't want stall or potentially even balance to just dissipate and for this to just be a pure offense meta. Of course if regenerator is still insane after 2 ability clause, then banning regenerator can be in the conversation for me.

Anyways yeah, those are just my thoughts. Other people probably have different thoughts, I just wanted to sum up mine.
 
An interesting team i think could be good.

Grimmsnarl (Clefable) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fairy
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave
Obviously screens support

Lokix (Slither Wing) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- First Impression
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat

Lokix 2.0

Ceruledge (Iron Hands) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Belly Drum
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch

grassy terrain + screens allows it to easily set up and after a bd allows it to ohko anything that isn't unaware. Also unaware seems to be replaced by regen in this meta which makes this so much better. This same set in banned in AAA.

Deoxys-Defence (Tornadus-Therian) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- U-turn
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Taunt

U-turn regenerator pivot to bring in your sweepers.

Clefable (Cinderace) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch

Mindless flare blitz spam until everything dies.

Rillaboom (Corviknight) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost

Grassy terrain is very useful for this team since cinder ,hands and corv (when roosting) don't like to take a eq. Also g terrain + leftovers heals so much.
 
mega PINCHURCHIN said:
An interesting team i think could be good.

Grimmsnarl (Clefable) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fairy
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave
Obviously screens support

Lokix (Slither Wing) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- First Impression
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat

Lokix 2.0

Ceruledge (Iron Hands) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Belly Drum
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch

grassy terrain + screens allows it to easily set up and after a bd allows it to ohko anything that isn't unaware. Also unaware seems to be replaced by regen in this meta which makes this so much better. This same set in banned in AAA.

Deoxys-Defence (Tornadus-Therian) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- U-turn
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Taunt

U-turn regenerator pivot to bring in your sweepers.

Clefable (Cinderace) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch

Mindless flare blitz spam until everything dies.

Rillaboom (Corviknight) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost

Grassy terrain is very useful for this team since cinder ,hands and corv (when roosting) don't like to take a eq. Also g terrain + leftovers heals so much.
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Some Problems I noticed...
Clefable doesnt have EVs
Corviknight is wearing an assault vest... from the text I am assuming this is supposed to be leftovers. That said it also doesnt benefit from grassy terrain unless it roosts, as it isnt grounded

Edit:
Having played a bit with the team (on low ladder so take it with a grain of salt) it seems really fun. Iron Hands can sweep entire teams if it gets a belly drum off into a u-turn or just switches into one... That said I am not a fan of grassy surge on corv. It doesn't really benefit from the grassy terrain itself, which makes it a boon for the enemy team more often than it works for you. And one of the biggest reasons to switch in Corviknight is wanting to defog... which removes the terrain...
I also noticed that Tornadus is missing a nature.
 
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Nait02 said:
Some Problems I noticed...
Clefable doesnt have EVs
Corviknight is wearing an assault vest... from the text I am assuming this is supposed to be leftovers. That said it also doesnt benefit from grassy terrain unless it roosts, as it isnt grounded

Edit:
Having played a bit with the team (on low ladder so take it with a grain of salt) it seems really fun. Iron Hands can sweep entire teams if it gets a belly drum off into a u-turn or just switches into one... That said I am not a fan of grassy surge on corv. It doesn't really benefit from the grassy terrain itself, which makes it a boon for the enemy team more often than it works for you. And one of the biggest reasons to switch in Corviknight is wanting to defog... which removes the terrain...
I also noticed that Tornadus is missing a nature.
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clef and torn has no nature/ev respectively because for torn you can have a def/spd nature depending on what you need same with clef. Yeah the corv set is bad i will prob replace with fluffy/regen. I tested and its fairly easily to get hands set up behind screens even against meows flower trick

Edit: You can replace torn for glowking as torn is quite fast even with min speed ivs (i went 8-1 with this team lost once bc i got crit twice through screens sob)
 
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Man I was so looking forward to playing this ladder again until I heard that it still has a regenerator spam problem. I so do not appreciate stall as a HO player.
 
I've been running this Cornerpon balance team for a bit now, would really like some feedback on it.

https://pokepast.es/6b2245d580562e55

Scream Tail and Cornerpon end a roughly equal number of games, and Scream Tail manages a secondary role as a defensive pivot that greatly threatens a large amount of the threats that would be commonly scarfed or otherwise naturally out speed Cornerpon. The team is functionally very weak to spikes/hazard stack without the Scrappy Tusk, as my main switch ins to Gholdengo/fusions do not directly threaten Sinistcha or Gholdengo and are instead intended to pivot into something that will force a switch.
 
The council should consider banning broken abilities rather than the sole native Pokemon with those broken abilities if the broken ability is the main or a very important reason as to why the Pokemon was banned. The council should not tier by banning the only "native" user of the ability since any Pokemon can use almost any ability, making them all effectively native users, similar to AAA tiering abilities. The only real difference between Frantic Fusions and AAA in terms of banning the ability instead of the native Pokemon is the possibility of the native Pokemon being able to donate extreme stats and not necessarily needing to donate the ability, which is only true for some Uber Pokemon that were banned at the start of this metagame.

I believe this policy is important so that native Pokemon that would be otherwise fine without their broken ability could potentially be unbanned. Obviously nobody is going to use Ditto, Persian-Alola, Komala, and Numel since their native broken abilities would be banned, but what about native Pokemon such as Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, and Regieleki, whose stats are similar to or worse than existing Pokemon in this tier and mostly need their native abilities to be broken? The policy of banning abilities first on single native users before the native users themselves makes sense from precedent (AAA) and could allow for new Pokemon that players can experiment with.
 
Speaking of bans, can we please have a 1 or 2 ability clause? Some people have been facing teams with 3+ regenerator mons, and this mainly lets for broken mons like Roaring Moon and friends, which should've been banned a while ago, but aren't, because they are walled by regenerator. Just wanted to bring some things up that I saw in OM chat.
 
Rampardos (Barraskewda) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam

Pelipper (Alomomola) @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Flip Turn
- Scald
- Rain Dance

Barraskewda (Rampardos) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Blast
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

Grimmsnarl (Deoxys-Defense) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Teleport
- Recover
- Rain Dance
- Psychic Noise

Kingdra (Primarina) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Rain Dance
- Moonblast
- Psychic Noise

Rampardos (Quaquaval) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- Rapid Spin
This is why frantic fusions need 2ac. There is always no way to stop rain from going up even if u have a torkoal with 3 bulky manual rain setters and one with drizzle and once rain gets up barras and ramp with MORE atk then MEGA MEWTOO X (195 to 190) are going to run over your team without much you can do about unless your weather setters still and then you have to bring in one a attack and get it chipped which is going to add up and eventually you wont have a weather setter and the game is over.
 
Survey Results!
Going to make this quick, it's pretty late and I don't want to spend too much time writing when I'm going to write something else related to one of the elements on the survey. Got about forty-one people which was pretty nice, but besides that here's the results!
1741920589302.png

1741920616685.png

1741920643922.png

1741920665798.png

:slowbro: 2 Ability Clause :slowking-galar:
The most controversial element on the survey, it's most likely going to be suspected first (if one gets up) and will be decided by the community rather than the council.

:gholdengo: Gholdengo :gholdengo:
Good as Gold is the main reason on why Gholdengo is on this list, along with potential 50/50s it causes with access to new abilities; however, it was the not an attractor towards a suspect, and will likely be a council vote if needed.

:raging-bolt: Raging Bolt:raging-bolt:
Raging Bolt will likely be a council vote if 2 Ability Clause is suspected, scoring the second highest score right behind it. Rather it be Adaptability, Electric Surge, Levitate, or Regenerator, Raging Bolt is an incredibly effective Pokemon that hits a little too hard for how versatile it is.

:alomomola: Regenerator :hydrapple:
Regenerator can be synched with 2 Ability Clause as it's the biggest benefiter of the unrestricted amount of abilities available. Unless enough community outcry is shown, it'll likely not appear on another survey for a while.

TL;DR: 2 Ability Clause is the suspect (if approved)!
 
hidin said:
Survey Results!
Going to make this quick, it's pretty late and I don't want to spend too much time writing when I'm going to write something else related to one of the elements on the survey. Got about forty-one people which was pretty nice, but besides that here's the results!
View attachment 721906
View attachment 721907
View attachment 721908
View attachment 721909

:slowbro: 2 Ability Clause :slowking-galar:
The most controversial element on the survey, it's most likely going to be suspected first (if one gets up) and will be decided by the community rather than the council.

:gholdengo: Gholdengo :gholdengo:
Good as Gold is the main reason on why Gholdengo is on this list, along with potential 50/50s it causes with access to new abilities; however, it was the not an attractor towards a suspect, and will likely be a council vote if needed.

:raging-bolt: Raging Bolt:raging-bolt:
Raging Bolt will likely be a council vote if 2 Ability Clause is suspected, scoring the second highest score right behind it. Rather it be Adaptability, Electric Surge, Levitate, or Regenerator, Raging Bolt is an incredibly effective Pokemon that hits a little too hard for how versatile it is.

:alomomola: Regenerator :hydrapple:
Regenerator can be synched with 2 Ability Clause as it's the biggest benefiter of the unrestricted amount of abilities available. Unless enough community outcry is shown, it'll likely not appear on another survey for a while.

TL;DR: 2 Ability Clause is the suspect (if approved)!
Click to expand...

Not gonna say much on Ghold & Bolt because, again, haven't seen them a ton myself.

That said, 2AC & Regen are inextricably linked together. Regen itself isn't the issue, it's the ability to use more than 2 that causes issues, hence the push for 2AC. If we get 2AC, then Regen won't be as problematic as it currently is. If we don't get 2AC though, then Regen will continue to be problematic. It's one thing if you have a team with a PhysDef Regen mon, and a SpDef Regen mon. You can build your team around countering them, just a matter of playing smart and executing your strategy to get around them.

But that goes out the window when your opponent is able to bring more than just 2 Regen mons! Sure you can probably guess which mons on a given team are Regen, the type of Regen wall they are, and which mons are not Regen on a given team. The issue becomes a matter of whether or not you can even make progress against them! Like Glaci444 said, 3 or more Regen mons means you essentially have an answer to anything your opponent can throw at you. Like, "Oh they have a Fire Punch Dragonite to counter my Corviknight, better send in Pecharunt." or "Oh they have Energy Ball Latios to counter my Swamper, better send in Mandibuzz! Progress grinds to a halt for both sides as you just wait for either the tri/quad Regen user to make a mistake as they just mindlessly keep switching to keep their Regen mons topped off, or for their opponent to get a lucky crit to finally break through the Regen spam to finally make some progress. Sure you can try building your team to more easily punch through Regen spam, but then your now likely to be more vulnerable to other strategies like hyper offense.

Point being, Regen spam is not fun to play against, and OM's like Frantic Fusions need to be FUN! An unfun OM may as well be a dead one, as support for it will dwindle out and die until action is taken on the unhealthy element, which for Frantic Fusions, is Regenerator Spam.

2 Ability Clause NEEDS to be implemented. (Still not quite sure how you suspect test a clause but whatever, I'm not the tier leader.)
 
I got #1 in frantic fusions. The 2 ability test is idiotic entirely. First let's not dance around the issue, the culprit is regenerator having a test with needless collateral casualties was a dumb idea in the first place. Second is that 2 regenerator is still broken as hell.

One regenerator per team is healthy such as a regenvester to mitigate the serious firepower of special attacks and lack of spedef boosting abilities. However, 2 regenerator pokemon on every good team besides literal ho (which there currently) easily grind the game to a complete standstill as both players have to keep going to their regenerator pokrmon on the opponents regenerator pokemon or risk taking a brutal hit. From what I can tell the top of the ladder is completely populated with full stall and neo stall unsuprising considering just how bulky regenvest + klawf tusk is.

Currently the metagame is completely unhealthy and directs the players to use boring and unfun strategies. The test of limiting regen to 2 Pokémon absolutely does not fix it whatsoever. The metagame is a very cool and fun idea do not let it become boring regen spam.
 
I think I've played a couple hundred games on ladder this month; I have several accounts at 1500 or above.

The council is probably in an annoying position, as I see it:
1. OM councils view their job (appropriately) as developing and maintaining a fair and competitive tier.
2. Players are demanding a more fun tier, even if the current tier isn't uncompetitive.
3. You've gotta ask, at what point does this tier just become AAA 2?

I'm not running a single Regenerator Pokemon, and I'm getting wins with fun sets; you certainly don't need Regenerator to win.

On the other hand, I am running some teams with duplicate abilities, like Mold Breaker or Levitate. I don't think these duplicate abilities are overpowered or uncompetitive, so I don't see 1AC as a good choice from the competitive standpoint, and I think 1AC brings the tier too close to AAA.

2AC seems like a fine midground from my experience.

I could see a Regenerator ban as an interesting alternative to maintain a fun tier that is distinct from AAA, though I don't have evidence to advocate for such a ban. I think the only compelling argument could be found in AAA posts that argue double Regenerator led to unhealthy matchup-based stalemates or losses at team preview.

Anyway, I've been having more fun this week than last week. I'll continue making new teams and laddering. I think this has been a really enjoyable OMOTM, and I might try AAA once it leaves. I haven't played that tier in a long time.

Here's my favorite team this month: https://pokepast.es/7082a019538ad4c2
 
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volcanionisgood said:
I got #1 in frantic fusions. The 2 ability test is idiotic entirely. First let's not dance around the issue, the culprit is regenerator having a test with needless collateral casualties was a dumb idea in the first place. Second is that 2 regenerator is still broken as hell.

One regenerator per team is healthy such as a regenvester to mitigate the serious firepower of special attacks and lack of spedef boosting abilities. However, 2 regenerator pokemon on every good team besides literal ho (which there currently) easily grind the game to a complete standstill as both players have to keep going to their regenerator pokrmon on the opponents regenerator pokemon or risk taking a brutal hit. From what I can tell the top of the ladder is completely populated with full stall and neo stall unsuprising considering just how bulky regenvest + klawf tusk is.

Currently the metagame is completely unhealthy and directs the players to use boring and unfun strategies. The test of limiting regen to 2 Pokémon absolutely does not fix it whatsoever. The metagame is a very cool and fun idea do not let it become boring regen spam.
Click to expand...
You are right that stall is still somewhat unhealthy with 2AC, but you are wrong that Regenerator is the culprit. With 2 Regenerator Pokemon, stall teams can still pivot around destructive attacks and recover easily. With only 1 Regenvester, I fail to see how stall teams are winning against Choice Specs Draco Meteor Adaptability Raging Bolt/Latios, Sheer Force Life Orb Cinderace, and numerous other combinations of breakers because many stall staples are suddenly unviable or forced to compete with one another for Regenerator. For example, if Goodra-Hisui is your Regenvester to tank special hits, Great Tusk becomes much harder to use and needs a Wishpasser to be viable. With 2AC, this isn't much of a problem because running more than 2 Regenerator Pokemon is somewhat redundant, but with AC, any stall Pokemon without recovery is suddenly on fraud watch for constricting you into using a Wishpasser.

Also, Regenvest Tusk is not as bulky as you make it out to be, at least on the special side.
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 486-574 (111.9 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Thundurus-Therian Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 385-455 (88.7 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Latios Luster Purge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 688-812 (158.5 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain (Uxie) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 174-205 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I personally think hazard stack is the issue and Pecharunt is its main enabler. Unlike Gholdengo, Pecharunt has much higher bulk, has Parting Shot, and can cripple Pokemon with Toxic, unlike Gholdengo who was to rely on Thunder Wave. Malignant Chain threatens Magic Bounce Pokemon, meaning that only Steels such as Goodra-Hisui and Corviknight can reliably switch into Pecharunt, even though it will simply Parting Shot and then switch to a counter. Furthermore, the Levitate variations of Pecharunt are able to easily spinblock Great Tusk, the best Regnerator spinner, causing Scrappy Great Tusk to rise and actually be a somewhat viable set, which is concerning.
 
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