SSB Super Staff Bros: Ultimate Discussion

Friar Laurence said:
I think the newest patch just now is a godsend for balance. It simply doesn't get more fair than Fox only, no items. Bravo to the development team!
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Yeah, I think this does more good than bad overall, except for Rumia, but overall everything is better!
 
In this replay turn 2 Fame uses Solidarity against a grass type and fails, but nothing shows that it fails and does not create a substitute.

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There's something weird going on with Peer Pressure, it's draining way more PP than it should and even seems inconsistent with how much. I've gotten 7 PP drained from a single use of Sunny Day, and then separately 10 and 13 PP from two uses of my boys. My boys I wonder might be related to calling other moves, but then that still doesn't explain what happened to Sunny Day.

Sunny Day battle
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My boys battle
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Friar Laurence said:
There's something weird going on with Peer Pressure...
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I have a hypothesis, this involves some assumptions since I've never seen the showdown code but it at least fits the data: assuming that Peer Pressure is meant to work by draining 3 additional PP, somehow that 3 additional PP is being added multiple times. In the case of the first My Boys, it gets added for every move called, so the cost becomes 1 + 3 (Taunt) + 3 (Growl) + 3 (attack) = 10. For Sunny Day, for some reason the +3 is being added twice, giving us 1 + (3 + 3) = 7. If this is due to some trait of weather setting moves, then it also explains the second My Boys, because one of the moves called that time was Rain Dance, so then the cost is 1 + 6 (Rain Dance) + 3 (Taunt) + 3 (attack) = 13
 
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Frostyicelad should have Bitter Malice removed from its moveset. I really do not believe that a special non-STAB 75 BP Ghost move is useful for a Pokemon with 55 base special attack that otherwise only has Crunch for its attacking move.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
Frostyicelad should have Bitter Malice removed from its moveset. I really do not believe that a special non-STAB 75 BP Ghost move is useful for a Pokemon with 55 base special attack that otherwise only has Crunch for its attacking move.
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To be fair it's a roll on a mon that can somewhat tank hits, its Dark STAB has ×2.25 power after setup that can't be ignored by defense boosts, not to mention the rest of the time it gets coverage against fairies.

I wouldn't be against removing it though, FrostyIceLad would be a lot more consistent at sweeping (even if it already is), and keeping it as an option 33% of the time would still be better than a consistently useless option *cough cough* Heal Pulse on Clementine *cough*
 
Zac Bread said:
To be fair it's a roll on a mon that can somewhat tank hits, its Dark STAB has ×2.25 power after setup that can't be ignored by defense boosts, not to mention the rest of the time it gets coverage against fairies.

I wouldn't be against removing it though, FrostyIceLad would be a lot more consistent at sweeping (even if it already is), and keeping it as an option 33% of the time would still be better than a consistently useless option *cough cough* Heal Pulse on Clementine *cough*
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But but
Magic bounce!
 
I really think the Hizo buff was the wrong buff it should've received. As of this message, it is 11th from last in terms of descending z-score. The only thing the buff did was make it even more of a matchup fish Pokemon that you can now use to win with only 1 fainted Pokemon while the opponent is usually helpless if they happen to have a stallmon. I personally think Hizo should get more base bulk instead and for Scapegoat to be nerfed to the point where it is weaker than pre-March 29 Hizo.

Example:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2350694741
Opponent should've switched in Melmetal earlier, but nearly OHKOing Aelita with only 1 dead ally seems pretty broken.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2350901372
I had an entire team of 6 Pokemon and the entire game essentially came down to a coinflip. On turn 55, I could have predicted my opponent switching to Merritty and switched to Steorra, but what if I was wrong and my opponent used Scapegoat on that turn? Pretty much a guaranteed sweep unless I get a miracle Scald burn with Scotteh.
+4 252 Atk Zoroark-Hisui Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 267-315 (66 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 Atk Zoroark-Hisui Last Respects vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Vespiquen: 400-472 (116.6 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But staying in to click Scald and predict the Scapegoat? Well, that's what I did in-game and I still ended up getting swept because my opponent switched to Merritty and gained an additional boost on Last Respects.

Here's a nice table to simplify things:
Opponent ScapegoatsOpponent switches
I attackRoughly 49% win from using 2 Scalds Roughly 70% chance I lose
I switchRoughly 70% chance I loseI probably win
All of the progress within that game across 50+ turns with 11 Pokemon still being alive should not be able to just be instantly determined by 1 Pokemon and 1 bad prediction.

Also, zee should be reworked. It effectively only has Fighting STAB outside of Sun and still lacks decent bulk to actually set sun in the first place.
It is 2nd from last, even with the slight buff.

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/view-winrates-gen9superstaffbrosultimate

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Is Darkest Night supposed to be a simple reskin of Foul Play? I don't see anything that sets the two moves apart. Might as well be a used placeholder for the sake of giving Zoro a signature move, which ends up rather underwhelming imo? I guess Zoro's main gimmick is having two guaranteed Focus Band effects in a match, but even that can be ignored by multi-hits and residual damage that outweighs Leftovers recovery, and outside of that Zoro's not less passive than a regular Umbreon. The mon as a whole may need a buff, given some other monster gimmicks roaming in the roster.
 
Can the more broken wallbreakers/HO Pokemon, specifically Beedrill, Togedemaru, and Furret, be reworked or nerfed? Beedrill can only be taken down with priority or an extremely tanky wall due to Adaptability, Intrepid Seord, its ridiculous speed, and buzzerstingercounter being a stronger version of Fell Stinger. Furret’s increased bulk (why was this buffed again?) means that almost no typeless attack can OHKO it and few Pokemon can outspeed it, allowing it to effortlessly heal using Swords Dance Bitter Blade. Togedemaru cannot be easily taken down from the defense boosts from Victory Dance (replace this with Dragon Dance and its way healthier), can easily heal using Leftovers and its signature move, and completely ignores opposing setup with Unaware.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
On turn 9, why was hsy able to move before Syrinix despite being supposed to have -1 priority?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2395867788
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Code: 
    // hsy
    wonderwing: {
        accuracy: 90,
        basePower: 150,
        category: "Physical",
        shortDesc: "No dmg rest of turn. Next turn user has -1 prio.",
        desc: "Usually moves last. The user becomes immune to all damage sources for the rest of the turn. The turn after this move is used, the user's moves all gain -1 priority. This move ignores all negative effects associated with contact moves.",
        name: "Wonder Wing",
        pp: 5,
        priority: 0,
        flags: { contact: 1 },
        // No negative contact effects implemented in Battle#checkMovesMakeContact
        onTryMove() {
            this.attrLastMove('[still]');
        },
        onPrepareHit(target, source) {
            this.add('-anim', source, 'Electric Terrain', source);
            this.add('-anim', source, 'Giga Impact', target);
        },
        self: {
            volatileStatus: 'wonderwing',
        },
        condition: {
            noCopy: true,
            duration: 2,
            onStart(pokemon) {
                this.add('-start', pokemon, 'Wonder Wing');
            },
            onRestart(target, source, sourceEffect) {
                target.removeVolatile('wonderwing');
            },
            onDamage(damage, target, source, effect) {
                if (this.effectState.duration! < 2) return;
                this.add('-activate', source, 'move: Wonder Wing');
                return false;
            },
            onModifyPriority(relayVar, source, target, move) {
                return -1;
            },
            onEnd(pokemon) {
                this.add('-end', pokemon, 'Wonder Wing', '[silent]');
            },
        },
        target: "normal",
        type: "Flying",
    },

It's probably that if (this.effectState.duration! < 2)
Although I am not really sure, but answer must be there
 
Discordual said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9superstaffbrosultimate-2401041834

Two odd things in this replay - on turn 10, Venous uses roost - they lose 6.7% health before gaining the 50% from roost.
The second thing is that concrete over water activates even if the move misses Venous (Turn 13)
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as you mentioned in the replay, Concrete Over Water activates before damage is dealt, and thus likely activates before the accuracy check is ran (in fact, since it happens with onTryHit i presume it's happening around when type immunity/Protect is checked for? since a move blocked by those never says it missed iirc)

as for the Roost error, my best guess is that move.basePowerCallback (conditions.ts,ln2576) somehow isn't doing what it's supposed to, leading to Roost gaining 20bp for each stat boost in accordance with Stored Power (though if YCI isn't doing this it's likely something deeper). i'm slightly inclined to think this is what's happening since it occurs on turn 12 as well, dealing ~1.3% more to boot
 
slimestudios said:
as you mentioned in the replay, Concrete Over Water activates before damage is dealt, and thus likely activates before the accuracy check is ran (in fact, since it happens with onTryHit i presume it's happening around when type immunity/Protect is checked for? since a move blocked by those never says it missed iirc)
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Yea, this one just makes sense, but intuitively you don't expect it.
slimestudios said:
as for the Roost error, my best guess is that move.basePowerCallback (conditions.ts,ln2576) somehow isn't doing what it's supposed to, leading to Roost gaining 20bp for each stat boost in accordance with Stored Power (though if YCI isn't doing this it's likely something deeper). i'm slightly inclined to think this is what's happening since it occurs on turn 12 as well, dealing ~1.3% more to boot
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Oh that's funny, but that also totally makes sense - I think the stored power thing has to be it.
 
alright yeah, a couple tests later it's absolutely a Stored Power issue: highlights include almost 30% self-damage on a Roost crit and +6 YCI being a 2hko on Swiffix

replay here (the custom rules were to make testing easier, to my knowledge nothing about them should affect results)
 
slimestudios said:
alright yeah, a couple tests later it's absolutely a Stored Power issue: highlights include almost 30% self-damage on a Roost crit and +6 YCI being a 2hko on Swiffix

replay here (the custom rules were to make testing easier, to my knowledge nothing about them should affect results)
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When you sit down too hard and hurt your bum
 
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