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Unpopular opinions

Blorbo doesn't necessarily need SpA Stone Edge, he needs something that fulfills the same role of a strong special attack. And even if it was SpA Stone Edge, I think it's far more interesting to have the option of either Blorbo or Blurba instead of Blurba just being a better version of Blorbo, and Blorbo not being able to function properly and therefore just being the worse option because everyone would rather just go with Blurba instead. Having more good options is far more interesting than having two options where one is just significently better and the other doesn't work properly.
Pokemon missing access to certain STAB attacks can still be interesting and viable if they are compensated with other positive qualities. From a competitive standpoint, I think that requiring nearly all Pokemon receive both a reliable strong STAB and a risky-but-strong STAB would close a lot of design space. Kartana lacking access to a risky-but-strong attack like Wood Hammer or Power Whip is necessary because it's compensated by its Attack stat. Shadow Ball is a decent STAB despite being on the lower end of power for the "standard STAB" due to having relatively uncommon resists, and a widely distributed Ghost-type attack comparable to Fire Blast or Overheat would give a lot of high-end Ghosts too much OHKO power. Encouraging a Pokemon to use High Jump Kick often requires denying access to Close Combat, showing how mandating a near-universal safe(r) option (which CC is to Fighting-types in Gen 8+) can cause interesting moves which are less common to be overshadowed (while CC is in the strong-but-risky category, it is still less risky than HJK).

It's even possible to create interesting results when denying both the "standard" reliable and strong-but-risky options. Leftovers + Fly Dragonite (and similarly Leftovers + Bounce Gyarados) in Gen 6 is an interesting set that might have been overshadowed if Dragonite had access to a better Flying-type attack (and if that attack was Brave Bird or otherwise comparable in power to other "risky" moves, it might have been in outright overpowered territory). Such cases can flop massively if not designed carefully, but l'd rather have the option open to create these interesting successes over just preventing the worst possible movepool design errors. Perhaps it's fair to not trust Gamefreak to provide proper compensation for notable movepool absences, but it's far from impossible.
 
From a competitive standpoint, I think that requiring nearly all Pokemon receive both a reliable strong STAB and a risky-but-strong STAB would close a lot of design space.
That's an interesting point.

I only got a problem when mons don't get either to be honest. Besides in-game jank like having to rely on Ember throughout the entire mid-game. No, I won't name names.

Of course, the Physical Electric-type situation is also pretty bad. Wild Charge as your main STAB is pretty horrendous, and Supercell Slam kinda doesn't have the juice. (And it came 5 generations too late.)

With that said, I think it's fair to limit some mons to only a risky-but-strong STAB or a reliable, 90BP one. Especially the latter. That adds to the flavor without denying mons viable output.
 
If we're discussing having usable STABs for various stages of ingame progression, I'd like to bring up Mirror Shot in specific. As the only Special Steel move that has ever existed below 80 power, I feel like it should have been available to more offensively mixed Steel-types like Bronzor or Shieldon. Instead it gets deleted from the game. Currently, Magnemite gets it's first Steel STAB on its much better attacking stat two levels after it would normally evolve. Before that, it's only option is Gyro Ball at level 16, which disappointed ingame on the both higher-Attack and lower-Speed Honedge.
 
If we're discussing having usable STABs for various stages of ingame progression, I'd like to bring up Mirror Shot in specific. As the only Special Steel move that has ever existed below 80 power, I feel like it should have been available to more offensively mixed Steel-types like Bronzor or Shieldon. Instead it gets deleted from the game. Currently, Magnemite gets it's first Steel STAB on its much better attacking stat two levels after it would normally evolve. Before that, it's only option is Gyro Ball at level 16, which disappointed ingame on the both higher-Attack and lower-Speed Honedge.
Not just Mirror Shot. Magnet Bomb too. Incredibly STUPID decision.

Yes, let's go back to Metal Claw and Steel Wing for mid-game progression? What's that? No wings? Well, sucks to be you! :facepalm:
 
Pokemon missing access to certain STAB attacks can still be interesting and viable if they are compensated with other positive qualities. From a competitive standpoint, I think that requiring nearly all Pokemon receive both a reliable strong STAB and a risky-but-strong STAB would close a lot of design space. Kartana lacking access to a risky-but-strong attack like Wood Hammer or Power Whip is necessary because it's compensated by its Attack stat. Shadow Ball is a decent STAB despite being on the lower end of power for the "standard STAB" due to having relatively uncommon resists, and a widely distributed Ghost-type attack comparable to Fire Blast or Overheat would give a lot of high-end Ghosts too much OHKO power. Encouraging a Pokemon to use High Jump Kick often requires denying access to Close Combat, showing how mandating a near-universal safe(r) option (which CC is to Fighting-types in Gen 8+) can cause interesting moves which are less common to be overshadowed (while CC is in the strong-but-risky category, it is still less risky than HJK).

It's even possible to create interesting results when denying both the "standard" reliable and strong-but-risky options. Leftovers + Fly Dragonite (and similarly Leftovers + Bounce Gyarados) in Gen 6 is an interesting set that might have been overshadowed if Dragonite had access to a better Flying-type attack (and if that attack was Brave Bird or otherwise comparable in power to other "risky" moves, it might have been in outright overpowered territory). Such cases can flop massively if not designed carefully, but l'd rather have the option open to create these interesting successes over just preventing the worst possible movepool design errors. Perhaps it's fair to not trust Gamefreak to provide proper compensation for notable movepool absences, but it's far from impossible.
I think it'd be fine for some pokemon to only get one of those two strong options if there's a good design reason for it, but the options should still be around for most pokemon
 
I'd say the space they should be aiming for is that every Pokémon has at least either a moderate power no drawback STAB (e.g. Shadow Ball) or a high power with drawback STAB (e.g. Focus Miss) for its main attacking stat. The types themselves can and should have different tools and attacks given to them as a whole, but they should still have enough options that some Pokémon aren't gimped because they're a physical electric type or a special rock type.
 
Gen 3-7 Seedot:
A kind of reasonable cherry pick, except you didn't even pick it right. Seedot has an explicitly gimped movepool compared to Nuzleaf, and ORAS Nuzleaf's movepool is basically to a modern standard already. RSE Nuzleaf's movepool is a point worth making, but even then the line gets a ton of use out of a few barely contested earlygame TMs like Bullet Seed, Thief, and Rock Tomb. What does fit your thought is the fact that Nuzleaf and Shiftry do definitely fall apart towards the end of the game, and really rely on Sunny Day (or Groudon I guess) and Solar Beam to do much of anything past a certain point. But before then, stuff like (60 BP) Giga Drain, Faint Attack, Brick Break / Shadow Ball, Nature Power, and potentially a decent Hidden Power are totally fine to be using. Speaking of which,
This wouldn't prevent Vulpix from using Will O Wisp and Hex, it could still learn both of those moves. It just would also be allowed to function as a Fire type too.
On a literal level, of course it isn't true that having access to Flamethrower means you can't use Flame Burst.

But like. Would you?

It might seem somewhat bizarre to consider this happening with a strong STAB and a coverage move but think about it. The use cases of your second strongest attack are only as common as the situations where your first strongest attack is weaker than it. For situations where moves are differentiated by type, that means situations where the strongest move is NVE or your move is SE. And for you to be using a pokemon against another, it's probably going to be one of the better options on your team at handling a threat- we're talking ingame here, so there's no need to worry about reads, switch-ins, or mid-ground plays. The amount of situations where a pokemon is going to need to use its third or even second strongest attack in a given playthrough is low, much lower than you might expect. If you have let's say Flame Burst on Vulpix, you probably just aren't using Hex very often - you'd probably have another teammate handle Rock / Ground / Water types, (if you aren't just using Energy Ball or Solar Beam for them instead) and in Fire mirrors the combo around it doesn't work. So you're only using it for Psychic, Ghost, and Dragon type matchups, and even that is assuming you don't have a better way to deal with any of those with a different pokemon on your team.

With the whole thing about preforming the role of a type, I also don't agree. Having the utility of offensive and defensive typings in pokemon spliced apart from one another is not bad design for ingame at all imo. There is something you can get that's different from old gen movepools (occasionally barren to the point of uselessness, filled out with random utility-less normal moves, excessively reliant on staple TMs / HMs) but that isn't just as cookie cutter as some modern movepools.
 
Similarly, a lot of the "Can I beat X game with crappy mon" challenges just boil down to "the AI is stupid" and "I overgrinded cuz my stats/moves suck"
I've seen a couple challenges like this Victory Road trainer one by adef that at least enforces a level cap and move/item restrictions on the player to keep it interesting.


In regards to the original topic: there's a fine line you have to walk between "things need options to be viable" and "we don't want the game to be homogenized". You don't want too many stinkers but also don't want all the Pokémon the feel the same.
 
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In regards to the original topic: there's a fine line you have to walk between "things need options to be viable" and "we don't want the game to be homogenized". You don't want to many stinkers but also don't want all the Pokémon the feel the same.
A frequent mantra I've heard in other genres is "variety is more important than balance." And also that balancing strategic/tactical options and styles is more important than just balancing individual character strength. You can balance a game by giving every single character identical tools, but then that typically defeats the purpose of having a large roster of characters to begin with.
 
Does anyone see any benefit in getting Legends Z-A for the Switch 1?

From what we've seen in the trailers, the game is already suffering performance wise, which fortunately will be adressed...on the Switch 2 edition. Plus, there's the possibility of having post release content like Daybreak in Legends Arceus, but it could be Switch 2 exclusive like in Kirby and the Forgotten Land. It looks more like the option for people who cannot get the new console, which is a pretty deflating feeling.
 
Does anyone see any benefit in getting Legends Z-A for the Switch 1?

From what we've seen in the trailers, the game is already suffering performance wise, which fortunately will be adressed...on the Switch 2 edition. Plus, there's the possibility of having post release content like Daybreak in Legends Arceus, but it could be Switch 2 exclusive like in Kirby and the Forgotten Land. It looks more like the option for people who cannot get the new console, which is a pretty deflating feeling.
The benefit is not spending 450€ (or more) for a Switch 2.

No, really, that's it.
 
doubling the fps and making it consistent is cool but for me personally it isn't worth 450 us dollars + 10 dollars for the upgrade pack (presumably)

I'm still thinking that I won't buy a switch 2 until I'm forced to for Gen 10 in 2026.
Same
Though I can consider if they make a "ZA+Switch 2" bundle like the Mario Kart one.
Regardless of what I think of the overpricing, I know I will get the console at some point, so saving 40ish bucks on acquiring it with a game I was going to get anyway would tecnically be worth it.
 
Only reason why I'm going to be getting a Switch 2 is because you can port over your old save data and to get the new pokemon games. If there wasn't the first part, I would not be getting a Switch 2.

But I still will admit, the prices are just insane. I hope that they have a program where you can trade your switch in for a switch 2 at a lower price while still porting over save data (because god's knows they won't reduce the price of the Switch 2).
 
Only reason why I'm going to be getting a Switch 2 is because you can port over your old save data and to get the new pokemon games. If there wasn't the first part, I would not be getting a Switch 2.

But I still will admit, the prices are just insane. I hope that they have a program where you can trade your switch in for a switch 2 at a lower price while still porting over save data (because god's knows they won't reduce the price of the Switch 2).
Fwiw sellers like GameStop regularly do such programs, problem is actually moving your save data

Though there could be reasonable alternative to just fling all your mons to Home and get a fresh save on switch 2...
 
Fwiw sellers like GameStop regularly do such programs, problem is actually moving your save data

Though there could be reasonable alternative to just fling all your mons to Home and get a fresh save on switch 2...
Ngl, its moreso other games that I'm worried about. For example, in SSBU, I've been trying to get every character into elite smash and I'm about halfway there, but this took me a year or two to do so far. So I REALLY don't want to lose all that work. I don't usually care about saving all my mons, besides a few which I do already have saved in Home. Other option would be saving all the data onto a hard drive and then transferring it from that. Which prob would be a pain, but does have the best of both worlds.
 
10 dollars for the upgrade pack (presumably)

Pokémon charging extra for a stable performance would look incredibly embarassing, but I hate that I can see them actually doing this

Only reason why I'm going to be getting a Switch 2 is because you can port over your old save data and to get the new pokemon games. If there wasn't the first part, I would not be getting a Switch 2.

But I still will admit, the prices are just insane. I hope that they have a program where you can trade your switch in for a switch 2 at a lower price while still porting over save data (because god's knows they won't reduce the price of the Switch 2).

Yeah it's good that you can carry over your progress, although for me the Switch 2 is not going to be an affordable option, probably ever, so I'm worried that I'll be stuck with a version that might run as good as the previous Pokémon game...
 
Does anyone see any benefit in getting Legends Z-A for the Switch 1?
Money :totodiLUL:

Most people here can already get Switch 1 games, the Switch 2 is a whole other ballpark.

Only reason why I'm going to be getting a Switch 2 is because you can port over your old save data and to get the new pokemon games. If there wasn't the first part, I would not be getting a Switch 2.

But I still will admit, the prices are just insane. I hope that they have a program where you can trade your switch in for a switch 2 at a lower price while still porting over save data (because god's knows they won't reduce the price of the Switch 2).
Porting over saves is huge, ngl.

Retirement Home makes this less awful for Pokémon, but for games like BotW it's an absolute game changer, especially with the QR code shenanigans.
 
This thread has been running with mild, mayo-level spicy takes lately, so I'm bringing out something to stir the pot a bit.

The Toxic TM nerf wasn't bad by itself, but it was kind of excessive. Many defensive mons suddenly lost a major way to force the game to progress, so I have a compromise. Toxic back as a universal TM, inflicting regular poison, unless used by a Poison-type. (Alternatively, Toxic back to universal TM status, and the regular Poison-type poisoning status moves inflict bad poison instead.)
 
Does anyone see any benefit in getting Legends Z-A for the Switch 1?

From what we've seen in the trailers, the game is already suffering performance wise, which fortunately will be adressed...on the Switch 2 edition. Plus, there's the possibility of having post release content like Daybreak in Legends Arceus, but it could be Switch 2 exclusive like in Kirby and the Forgotten Land. It looks more like the option for people who cannot get the new console, which is a pretty deflating feeling.

Not everyone is gonna migrate over to the Switch 2 immediately.

No console transition is ever immediate or instant. I guarantee you that a significant number of Switch 1 owners are going to stick with their Switch 1 for now for the entirety of this year. And that's not the fault of the Switch 2 but just the nature of how things are with new consoles. As a recent example you can see how they were still supporting the PS4 and Xbox One for a few years after the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S came out, even though that's starting to die out now. Most people aren't going to care if Z-A runs worse on Switch 1 than on Switch 2, they just want a fun game about cute and cool monsters and in this case one that's very ARPG heavy and that'll be good enough for them. Look at Scarlet and Violet. That game is well-documented in its technical shortcomings on Switch 1 and it still sold like hotcakes and a lot of people still love it anyhow.

Given that the enhancements on Switch 2 for this game specifically seem to be very minimal compared to the other Nintendo games getting Switch 2 editions (it seems to literally be *just* be the game looking and running better), and Game Freak is generally pretty conservative with jumping to new hardware, I do not see the Switch 2 version having that significant of enhancements, nor to I think any Daybreak-like post-release content will be exclusive to the Switch 2 version, for Game Freak that would be like shooting themselves in the stomach. Games like Kirby and the Forgotten Land and BOTW+TOTK can get away with it because they're not new games: they've been around for a long time and the Switch 2 exclusive content gives older players of those games an incentive to play again after most likely not having touched the game in over a year if not more.

For a significant number of people they probably won't get the Switch 2 until well into 2026 if not later, at which point Z-A will be old news. There's still a benefit in the Switch 1 version per se in that that's what most people will be buying anyhow, and they can buy the upgrade pack digitally later if they adopt the Switch 2 at a later point and are still playing Z-A. The "Switch 2 Edition" is for the small number of early adopters, and the performance enhancements will matter for that crowd because most of the early adopters are hardcore devotees and gamers who do care about performance and whatnot.
 
doubling the fps and making it consistent is cool but for me personally it isn't worth 450 us dollars + 10 dollars for the upgrade pack (presumably)

I'm still thinking that I won't buy a switch 2 until I'm forced to for Gen 10 in 2026.
lowkey I can't imagine only wanting to buy a system because Pokemon. im buying this shit for Mario Kart, portable Metaphor ReFantazio eventually, portable Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth, possible portable Elden Ring / DS3 / etc., potentially portable Red Dead Redemption 2 in the future, likely the next Nier game whenever that comes out portably, inevitable Splatoon 4, inevitable 3D Mario, inevitable big new Zelda, Yakuza on the toilet, maybe finally a good Animal Crossing game after 12 years, Monster Hunter but in 60fps on a handheld, and yes of course Pokemon

edit:

next 2d metroid
resident evil
fire emblem
cyberpunk maybe
forza horizon (yes they're going multi plat)
persona 3 reload
lies of p
maybe baldurs gate 3
kirby
maybe we get fallout

etc. etc.

tbf this is a nintendo orbit franchise and I know by this point that most nintendo fans play at max 3 different game franchises
 
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This thread has been running with mild, mayo-level spicy takes lately, so I'm bringing out something to stir the pot a bit.

The Toxic TM nerf wasn't bad by itself, but it was kind of excessive. Many defensive mons suddenly lost a major way to force the game to progress, so I have a compromise. Toxic back as a universal TM, inflicting regular poison, unless used by a Poison-type. (Alternatively, Toxic back to universal TM status, and the regular Poison-type poisoning status moves inflict bad poison instead.)

This would also nerf Gliscor btw, bro would theoretically have to stick to Flinging Toxic Orbs

lowkey I can't imagine only wanting to buy a system because Pokemon. im buying this shit for Mario Kart, portable Metaphor ReFantazio eventually, portable Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth, possible portable Elden Ring / DS3 / etc., potentially portable Red Dead Redemption 2 in the future, likely the next Nier game whenever that comes out portably, inevitable Splatoon 4, inevitable 3D Mario, inevitable big new Zelda, Yakuza on the toilet, maybe finally a good Animal Crossing game after 12 years, Monster Hunter but in 60fps on a handheld, and yes of course Pokemon

edit:

next 2d metroid
resident evil
fire emblem
cyberpunk maybe
forza horizon (yes they're going multi plat)
persona 3 reload
lies of p
maybe baldurs gate 3
kirby
maybe we get fallout

etc. etc.

tbf this is a nintendo orbit franchise and I know by this point that most nintendo fans play at max 3 different game franchises

The Switch 2 is a very attractive console ngl, people are saying this is a Wii U situation but that console problem was a whole can of issues: the lack of notable games at launch, the lack of 3rd party support, the weak marketing, too gimmicky, etc. Switch 2 in comparison seems more focused in what it wants of be (sorta, who really asked for that game chat feature lol) with the main issue everyone's upset at is the pricing of their games. I watched the Direct and I was pleased with what I saw, until people pointed out the pricing tags. Hopefully things will accomodate in the future...
 
with the main issue everyone's upset at is the pricing of their games. Hopefully things will accomodate in the future...
this is the best indicator the switch 2 will be fine btw

no one gets upset that something they don't want is expensive. my take is 90% of these will fall to FOMO when Mario Kart wonder gets a 90+ on Metacritic, Donkey Kong gets a 90+ on Metacritic, Metroid Prime 4 probably also gets a 90+on Metacritic lmao

We could realistically see 3 Nintendo GOTY nominations this year, two of which S2 exclusive, and one at 120hz on S2. We'll see how badly the system is doing then

I think realistically the only thing that could stop it at this point is tariffs
 
lowkey I can't imagine only wanting to buy a system because Pokemon. im buying this shit for Mario Kart, portable Metaphor ReFantazio eventually, portable Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth, possible portable Elden Ring / DS3 / etc., potentially portable Red Dead Redemption 2 in the future, likely the next Nier game whenever that comes out portably, inevitable Splatoon 4, inevitable 3D Mario, inevitable big new Zelda, Yakuza on the toilet, maybe finally a good Animal Crossing game after 12 years, Monster Hunter but in 60fps on a handheld, and yes of course Pokemon
I mean I'm going to need the switch 2 to play future exclusives on it but I also have a gaming pc and don't really personally care about portability. I'm a unique case I guess in that I don't ever travel anywhere, although ironically I prefer playing switch in handheld mode. My switch 1 currently only has games that are entirely exclusive to the console on it and the Switch 2 is going to be similar. If I want to play a big third party game I'll play it on my gaming pc instead. I do hope they port all the atlus and sega stuff to the switch 2 but I won't buy them because I already own all of them on steam.

Also, I'm waiting on a switch 2 for Pokemon Gen 10 because that's the main series I like the most. There are other nintendo franchises that would get me to shill out big bucks, like if they announced a new 3D zelda for 2026 I'd buy the switch 2 then too.
 
I mean I'm going to need the switch 2 to play future exclusives on it but I also have a gaming pc and don't really personally care about portability. I'm a unique case I guess in that I don't ever travel anywhere, although ironically I prefer playing switch in handheld mode. My switch 1 currently only has games that are entirely exclusive to the console on it and the Switch 2 is going to be similar. If I want to play a big third party game I'll play it on my gaming pc instead. I do hope they port all the atlus and sega stuff to the switch 2 but I won't buy them because I already own all of them on steam.

Also, I'm waiting on a switch 2 for Pokemon Gen 10 because that's the main series I like the most. There are other nintendo franchises that would get me to shill out big bucks, like if they announced a new 3D zelda for 2026 I'd buy the switch 2 then too.
I also have a gaming PC but I also have "I want to play this game in my bed in any position especially because I have a disability that hurts if I sit down in a chair"

i dont need to travel to get use out of portability. even when im bed ridden with a TV in my room I never dock my switch. It hasn't been docked in like 3 years
 
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