Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Venuesaur]

Been grinding up a bit and have been enjoying post-Moon ban meta much more.

I will admit, I did understand the value Roaring Moon brought to the metagame. I do believe it can be very difficult for Hyper Offensive teams to compete due to the inherent restrictions brought about by them via their weakness to pivoting tactics, entry hazards, etc. I do feel Roaring Moon's role as strong Knocker / progress maker into fatter teams did have value. That said, I feel the typical commitment of needing to Tera + sequence exactly correct against Roaring Moon to be far too tall of an order for myself in most games + quite restrictive to cooler building options because of how inherently difficult DD Sweepers with Tera are to check. Also to be frank, I do not at all like fighting most of the bullshit cheese teams that moon found itself on like Veil, Sun, or other HO structures. I won't act like these teams are necessarily skillless compared to spamming Chilly Reception with Gking or clicking Ruination a bunch with Ting-Lu, but it def did get annoying to build teams that I thought were fine, only to get cheesed out by Tera Fairy Moon, or Tera Ground Moon, or needing to Tera my Pecharunt to beat Moon only to get trolled by something else in the back.

I've mostly been using Meow teams post moon ban and a lot of them feel significantly better, which is a great sign of general meta health (for me anyways). I have been getting a bit more annoying by Gambit / Zama lately, but tbh I am mostly fine with both and feel they both add far more to the metagame than Roaring Moon. Aside from the standard guys people complain about (Kyurem / Gliscor) I believe Dragonite is very likely to see tiering action soon for the same reason as Roaring Moon / Gouging. I think it is similar in the positive impact in has for teambuilding to Zama / Gambit with its Tera normal sets, but we are seeing too many different variants with the advent of Tera Ground + Stone edge, Tera Ground + Ice Spinner, Tera Blast Ghost + Low Kick, Tera Fire Scale Shot + Fire Punch, Tera Blast Fairy + EQ, Tera Blast Flying + Earthquake, that let it pick and choose its counters to an even higher degree than Roaring Moon or Gouging Fire IMO. I am hoping that the idea of entertaining a Dragonite suspect is the proverbial can that finally lets us get rid of Tera Blast, as I feel that move gives too many of these set up sweepers like Gambit, Moon, Dragonite, Goug, Kyurem, Raging Bolt, etc. too much versatility with the extra coverage and makes them more difficult to contain with standard options.

Yeah I agree I'd like to see tera blast looked at finally, especially if Dragonite starts becoming problematic. I've also noticed more tera-flying tblast sets popping up, and those shift how you play around dnite a lot, and especially with the trend of dd+ tera blast sweepers being broken, I wouldn't be surprised if people start asking to suspect it.

Also yeah i easily think post-Moon meta is like way better lmao

 

[Quackborg]

save your breath, these people think its a conspiracy and anyone who disagrees is just "part of it" whatever that means


Ive been experimenting with enamorus, I'm not sure this is the final set but its where I've landed for now

Enamorus @ Leftovers
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense

essentially the exact same set as the enamorus therian one we all tried to make work ages ago. I think this actually works a lot better with the speed, you can grab boosts before taking an attack, and get draining kiss healing earlier too. I prefer mystical fire over earth power for corviknight, and the spA drop assists your bulk agaisnt things like slowking, gholdengo. I'm definitely tossing up between ground and poison tera.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2341593056

this set works but u need bulk evs, and personally im a huge cloak ep fan with a bit of bulk investment

 

[tommytt22]

Yeah I agree I'd like to see tera blast looked at finally, especially if Dragonite starts becoming problematic. I've also noticed more tera-flying tblast sets popping up, and those shift how you play around dnite a lot, and especially with the trend of dd+ tera blast sweepers being broken, I wouldn't be surprised if people start asking to suspect it.

Also yeah i easily think post-Moon meta is like way better lmao

I firmly believe roaring moon is broken without tera blast, but if we ban tera blast it will require a retest because the tera fairy set is what convinced a lot of others. I'd like to keep tera blast exclusively for that reason haha

 

[June Heat]

You know what, given that Tera is highly likely to continue to be a mechanic next Gen, I’m for a Tera Blast suspect. Not that I think it should be banned, but rather just to deal with it in current Gen rather than half of next Gen.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

I firmly believe roaring moon is broken without tera blast, but if we ban tera blast it will require a retest because the tera fairy set is what convinced a lot of others. I'd like to keep tera blast exclusively for that reason haha

That's the biggest problem with tera blast not being prioritized is that if it continues to get attention and is at any point suspected and banned we begin to work backwards and we did effectively waste time.

Roaring Moon did not even score on the previous survey. Tera blast scored third, right behind the two unbanable radar targets. Yet a tera blast set goes viral for Roaring Moon and we move right into a suspect for it.

A clearly unhealthy mechanic affecting so many mons should be a priority. It is avoided. Other than ausma, who will every few months repost their video.

Kyurem will come back in discussion again this year. It's a good mon. But Tera Blast is factor.

I've offered more previously but I'm kinda broke now- would at least donate 100$ toward an unofficial tournament without tera blast and moon moth leki added back in. Espartha optional. -stored power +magearna optional. -electro shot + arch optional

I understand Tera itself is now off the table and it makes sense because this late, tera ban would mean a restart. Tera blast after so long is going to resemble the same dynamic if it gets to where it contributed to 1/4 of the bans.

It should be hashed out or taken off the table.

Respectfully

 

[Bold School]

Ok. So I tried some mixed Manaphy for a bit. U-turn is superior because Wellspring exists. So this is what I settled on for the moment...

Manaphy @ Mystic Water
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Naive Nature
- Liquidation
- U-turn
- Take Heart
- Surf

I'm not 100% on the EVs, but this felt right. 100 base speed is a bit awkward by gen 9 standards. Outside of Zapdos, which doesn't run full speed often, it's basically Crown and a bunch of base 95s or lower. Manaphy has enough speed invested to always outspeed a fully invested Adamant Wellspring and Timid Kyurem. I don't know if I could get away with less speed, but I felt a U-turn on Adamant Wellspring was very important. Kyurem is also a difficult matchup so not chancing anything besides Scarf is nice.

I went full attack for maximum damage. For the rest, I just tried to add a bit of bulk. I figure the special side can be patched by Take Heart. So I went with Naive over Hasty. I would like to run Naughty, but I don't think the speed tiers can justify it. Let me know if I'm actually being suboptimal on the EVs.

Too early conclusion:

It needs more testing, but preliminary results are a bit of a mixed bag. On one hand, you break can through a lot things by virtue of being a mixed attacker. You can also be a status absorber. This gives it a possible niche over Wellspring, but it's obviously not as good. You are also faster than many of the things you want to break. U-turn allows you to more easily get out of bad matchups and not be useless into Wellspring teams.

On the other hand, you are basically playing without an ability most games. The coverage is nonexistent. Having double Water moves is kind of bad into any team with bulky waters or a bulky Tera Water mon like Dozo or Alomomola. It also doesn't necesarrily like higher speed teams since they out offense you. This version of Manaphy doesn't like seeing Kyurem or Keldeo, which hit hard, resists STAB, and have enough bulk to take advantadge of you.

This Manaphy set needs seems to need team support to deal with its weaknesses. If this set does turn out to be otherwise good enough, it might still be too tipped in team preview. I don't know this. It's just my speculation. As for the set itself, the raw threat level isn't the same as more setup dependent Manaphy sets. On the other hand, it is more immediate damage. Being mixed allows you to take on some different things in exchange for making your bulky Water type matchup much worse. There are just better overall mixed attackers like D-speed, Pult, I-Val, Kyurem, and Hoopa-U. So I don't know if it's worth it yet.

I do think it would be good for Manaphy if there was some sort of a threat besides special setup. But my Choice Band tests concluded early for being a worse Wellspring. This set is at least better than that. More testing is required. My other Manaphy ideas thus far haven't been worth mentioning.

 

[Coin Flip]

What are some good answers for balance to use to Tera fairy Gholdengo? It’s pretty cracked. I find it can muscle past most of its usual checks with Tera fairy dazzling gleam+NP. I’ve had limited success with Iron Crown, but against webs it’s useless

 

[658Greninja]

What are some good answers for balance to use to Tera fairy Gholdengo? It’s pretty cracked. I find it can muscle past most of its usual checks with Tera fairy dazzling gleam+NP. I’ve had limited success with Iron Crown, but against webs it’s useless

Stuff like Cinderace and Gambit work just fine vs most NP Ghold. Ting-Lu and Waterpon can Tera back and be just fine vs this matchup. You can also try stuff like CB Scizor which shouldn’t have trouble rkilling Ghold post-Tera.

 

[toshimelonhead]

This Manaphy set needs seems to need team support to deal with its weaknesses. If this set does turn out to be otherwise good enough, it might still be too tipped in team preview. I don't know this. It's just my speculation. As for the set itself, the raw threat level isn't the same as more setup dependent Manaphy sets. On the other hand, it is more immediate damage. Being mixed allows you to take on some different things in exchange for making your bulky Water type matchup much worse. There are just better overall mixed attackers like D-speed, Pult, I-Val, Kyurem, and Hoopa-U. So I don't know if it's worth it yet.

I do think it would be good for Manaphy if there was some sort of a threat besides special setup. But my Choice Band tests concluded early for being a worse Wellspring. This set is at least better than that. More testing is required. My other Manaphy ideas thus far haven't been worth mentioning.

I understand the strategy here, but you nailed it with your take that I bolded for emphasis. It is a really good special sweeper that unfortunately Ogerpon-W can take out even when fully set up. Accepting this tension and dominating the rest of the metagame is Manaphy's best option to survive in SV OU.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

oh cripes Manaphy discussion

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Rest
- Surf
- Tail Glow

used to run this on Rain, 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is stupid silly especially on a breaker / sweeper, +3 Tera Grass Energy Ball OHKOs Wellspring Ogerpon though you gotta look out for Encore variants

 

[Nocturne Nugget]

oh cripes Manaphy discussion

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Rest
- Surf
- Tail Glow

used to run this on Rain, 100 / 100 / 100 bulk is stupid silly especially on a breaker / sweeper, +3 Tera Grass Energy Ball OHKOs Wellspring Ogerpon though you gotta look out for Encore variants

this sounds pretty fun honestly, although I'm a strong believer of manaphy for webs and nearly always webs. Granted I am a strong webs believer in general

 

[June Heat]

Is it me or has Sun been dominating the ladder recently? Any suggestions to combat Sun? I feel like unless I’m actively focused I just lose.

 

[Coin Flip]

Stuff like Cinderace and Gambit work just fine vs most NP Ghold. Ting-Lu and Waterpon can Tera back and be just fine vs this matchup. You can also try stuff like CB Scizor which shouldn’t have trouble rkilling Ghold post-Tera.

Thanks. I find Lu usually loses the match up if its bulky Ghold or Gambit will get seriously chunked.

 

[tommytt22]

Is it me or has Sun been dominating the ladder recently? Any suggestions to combat Sun? I feel like unless I’m actively focused I just lose.

In that case my suggestion is to stay actively focused during the game

More seriously, what are you specifically struggling with? Sun struggles against other weather and it gets COOKED by hazards. Clodsire/Gastrodon also gives it a hard time.

 

[EpicGuy321]

Is it me or has Sun been dominating the ladder recently? Any suggestions to combat Sun? I feel like unless I’m actively focused I just lose.

Tera Water Chilly Reception Glowking is the #1 anti-sun mon. If you want to be quirky, use TTar. Offensive Garchomp also OHKOs Ninetales on lead and sun generally just kind of can't switch in. I've been using this set:

Garchomp (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Outrage

I forget who posted this here originally but shoutout to bro. This set is so goated.

 

[Avira]

Tera Water Chilly Reception Glowking is the #1 anti-sun mon. If you want to be quirky, use TTar. Offensive Garchomp also OHKOs Ninetales on lead and sun generally just kind of can't switch in. I've been using this set:

Garchomp (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Outrage

I forget who posted this here originally but shoutout to bro. This set is so goated.

I think it was Magcargo who posted this set. He/she mentioned a distaste for Scale Shot and that from a pure wall-breaking standpoint Outrage is the best Dragon STAB for Garchomp since it's more consistent with the 100% accuracy, and Life Orb guarantees KOes on Moltres and Zapdos at +2.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 395-465 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[658Greninja]

I think it was Magcargo who posted this set. He/she mentioned a distaste for Scale Shot and that from a pure wall-breaking standpoint Outrage is the best Dragon STAB for Garchomp since it's more consistent with the 100% accuracy, and Life Orb guarantees KOes on Moltres and Zapdos at +2.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 395-465 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

actually that person was me

I think no matter what, Chomp is always gonna be outclassed as a sweeper. Dnite has too much consistency and splashbility for me to consider anyone besides maybe DD Kyurem. But a physical breaker that can muscle past Pecha, Corv, and Molt is definetely in demand after Roaring Moon’s departure. Several staples like Zama, SD Val, and Dnite appreciate seeing these fat walls eliminated. The SD LO set does just that.

 

[Nocturne Nugget]

actually that person was me

I think no matter what, Chomp is always gonna be outclassed as a sweeper. Dnite has too much consistency and splashbility for me to consider anyone besides maybe DD Kyurem. But a physical breaker that can muscle past Pecha, Corv, and Molt is definetely in demand after Roaring Moon’s departure. Several staples like Zama, SD Val, and Dnite appreciate seeing these fat walls eliminated. The SD LO set does just that.

out of curiousity what is fire fang for? I'm a big hater of the fang moves as I feel they simply never get the coverage job done since they're so weak. I imagine you're rarely gonna be clicking that move anyway but still I'm curious.

 

[Zatqer]

out of curiousity what is fire fang for? I'm a big hater of the fang moves as I feel they simply never get the coverage job done since they're so weak. I imagine you're rarely gonna be clicking that move anyway but still I'm curious.

its mostly just for corv (+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 257-304 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) who otherwise walls you hard, though i guess its also good for beating air balloon gholdengo and tinkaton

 

[Nocturne Nugget]

its mostly just for corv (+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 257-304 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) who otherwise walls you hard, though i guess its also good for beating air balloon gholdengo and tinkaton

Ngl I thought corv woulda hard walled anyway, yeah that makes sense it's just that fire fang is truly a woated move

Ig enam is still a major issue but enam is kinda Meh anyway and also you have teammates for a reason

 

[ILoveGarchom]

its mostly just for corv (+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 257-304 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) who otherwise walls you hard, though i guess its also good for beating air balloon gholdengo and tinkaton

Also OHKOs with tera fire and one round of rocks

 

[Zatqer]

speaking of enamorus, anyone else think it's the worst pokemon left in the tier now? all it does is come in, take 25% from rocks, moonblast glowking for 0.04 damage and swap out. 5 repeats of this later it dies to rocks. scarf variants have zero power, specs variants are easily revenge killed, and both are very prediction-reliant. hell even if you predict ep into glowking, the opponent just doubles into any flying type and there goes all your momentum. calm mind variants are okay but start out with neither power nor speed (and still lose to glowking!!!). feels like iron valiant is just better in every way.

pretty surprising that it has 135 spatk (more than kyurem and valiant) because damn it hits like a wet noodle. also very eh vs stuff like pech/corv/molt which aren't even dedicated special walls. also also enam isn't even that good vs ting-lu (the one thing you'd think it could beat). all the genies in OU are frauds....

 

[mcribs]

speaking of enamorus, anyone else think it's the worst pokemon left in the tier now? all it does is come in, take 25% from rocks, moonblast glowking for 0.04 damage and swap out. 5 repeats of this later it dies to rocks. scarf variants have zero power, specs variants are easily revenge killed, and both are very prediction-reliant. hell even if you predict ep into glowking, the opponent just doubles into any flying type and there goes all your momentum. calm mind variants are okay but start out with neither power nor speed (and still lose to glowking!!!). feels like iron valiant is just better in every way.

pretty surprising that it has 135 spatk (more than kyurem and valiant) because damn it hits like a wet noodle. also very eh vs stuff like pech/corv/molt which aren't even dedicated special walls. also also enam isn't even that good vs ting-lu (the one thing you'd think it could beat). all the genies in OU are frauds....

enamorus is doing a lot better than it had before. while hazards are an issue, its typing is one of its main selling points right now, with fairy being especially nice to throw out. Healing Wish is nice on offense to continue momentum for another breaker

Scarf enam is mostly for speed control/revenge killing/cleaning, you usually take out the glowking beforehand with smth else. Tera Ground EP still chunks glowking and can force switches very often if you really need to get rid of glowking. also the most tinglu can do is ruination and whirlwind, which while annoying, either forces a tera, or just lose 40ish% of its health, so no, it wont do poorly to ting lu(unless youre playing really poorly). Specs enam can brute force neutral targets like zapdos or gliscor, and again, won't lose to ting lu. CM is the worst out of all these sets, since enam has better things to do, and prefers the hit and run playstyle.

 

[658Greninja]

speaking of enamorus, anyone else think it's the worst pokemon left in the tier now? all it does is come in, take 25% from rocks, moonblast glowking for 0.04 damage and swap out. 5 repeats of this later it dies to rocks. scarf variants have zero power, specs variants are easily revenge killed, and both are very prediction-reliant. hell even if you predict ep into glowking, the opponent just doubles into any flying type and there goes all your momentum. calm mind variants are okay but start out with neither power nor speed (and still lose to glowking!!!). feels like iron valiant is just better in every way.

pretty surprising that it has 135 spatk (more than kyurem and valiant) because damn it hits like a wet noodle. also very eh vs stuff like pech/corv/molt which aren't even dedicated special walls. also also enam isn't even that good vs ting-lu (the one thing you'd think it could beat). all the genies in OU are frauds....

Enamorus is fine on BO. Specs Moonblast is spammable into non-Glowking structures and Scarf H-Wish is always clutch., but I agree it’s the worst OU mon besides Araq and Dozo who are exclusive to their designated archetypes. It faces competition with Val/Prima who provide a similar offensive profile but with more utility, packs an awkward speed tier (good for wallbreaking standards but weird as a scarfer), and ofc that dreaded SR weakness.

It does get fucked hard by Gking, but you can ofc build your team around threats that can abuse it (Ting-Lu/Tusk/Samu) and mons that can force chip onto it (Zama).

tl;dr: good mon, but hard to fit.

Lando is still rly good. Moon ban makes it harder to get a Knock Off on its Helmet, making it a more consistent blanket check into Gambit/Zama/non-Spinner Dnite. Lando is also one of the most consistent mons at setting rocks and keeping them up. Corv gets shut down by Taunt and doesn’t like being forced to U-Turn on Helmet. Tusk takes a hefty chunk from Earth Power or dies to a potential Grass Knot. Weezing doesn’t wanna eat a Ground move. Running it also means Tusk is freed a slot like Knock or CC (perfectly fine to run dual ground cores)

Torn is pretty solid. Not B+ material cause Bleakwind is a shitty move, but I really enjoy running AV with Icy Wind to eliminate the speed boosts from Val/Moth while also hitting Lando/Gliscor/Dnite hard. Blanket checks a good chunk of random special threats while being annoying with Knock + U-Turn. The 121 speed tier gives Torn a lot of flexibility with the EV spreads. Personally I run HP/SpD investment with enough speed for Kyurem.

 

[Nocturne Nugget]

speaking of enamorus, anyone else think it's the worst pokemon left in the tier now? all it does is come in, take 25% from rocks, moonblast glowking for 0.04 damage and swap out. 5 repeats of this later it dies to rocks. scarf variants have zero power, specs variants are easily revenge killed, and both are very prediction-reliant. hell even if you predict ep into glowking, the opponent just doubles into any flying type and there goes all your momentum. calm mind variants are okay but start out with neither power nor speed (and still lose to glowking!!!). feels like iron valiant is just better in every way.

pretty surprising that it has 135 spatk (more than kyurem and valiant) because damn it hits like a wet noodle. also very eh vs stuff like pech/corv/molt which aren't even dedicated special walls. also also enam isn't even that good vs ting-lu (the one thing you'd think it could beat). all the genies in OU are frauds....

Enam is definitely a bit hard to fit on teams and I do think its choice sets are incredibly telegraphed and p exploitable but scarf enam is a threatening cleaner, its bulk is serviceable enough to the point where its difficult to deal with in a single hit and against teams which don't have enough resources to reliably soak up its moonblasts or coverage it can secure the game on the spot. you do have to accept that you're gonna be playing the majority of a game with your other 5 pokemon tho, since again its super telegraphed and predictable, if you manage your resources well to the point where the opponent is forced into enam its not gonna be that effective. There is the argument to be made for stellar tera blast but I honestly feel that set is far too volatile for me to consider it super good, stellar tera blast is a weirdly weak move because it doesn't get a stab boost in the same way tera blast of other types would. you also give up any defensive potential out of tera and a moveslot for tera blast, yes +1 spa and atk every time is a nice draw but what this ends up doing is thudding into the most common special walls and all you have to show for it is a wasted tera.

enamorus is doing a lot better than it had before. while hazards are an issue, its typing is one of its main selling points right now, with fairy being especially nice to throw out. Healing Wish is nice on offense to continue momentum for another breaker

Scarf enam is mostly for speed control/revenge killing/cleaning, you usually take out the glowking beforehand with smth else. Tera Ground EP still chunks glowking and can force switches very often if you really need to get rid of glowking. also the most tinglu can do is ruination and whirlwind, which while annoying, either forces a tera, or just lose 40ish% of its health, so no, it wont do poorly to ting lu(unless youre playing really poorly). Specs enam can brute force neutral targets like zapdos or gliscor, and again, won't lose to ting lu. CM is the worst out of all these sets, since enam has better things to do, and prefers the hit and run playstyle.

I actually think cm enam is the more flexible and better set, its not particularly fast yes but enam can be very strong into more passive teams with moves like taunt or substitute, (I prefer taunt) especially for its ability to turn ting lu into setup fodder, or force it out to chunk something on the switch, yes you do have to forgo two move slots for both cm and taunt but fairy is a great stab into this dragon and fighting heavy meta meanwhile ground compliments it very well despite the presence of mons like air balloon gholdengo and tinkaton as well as corviknight, there have been a fair few times where I've found myself successfully winning the 1v1 against corv actually, with taunt you stop it from clicking roost and if its iron press its not actually threatening, brave bird does a decent amount of damage but coupled with the recoil it deals plus boosted moonblasts dealing ok damage into corv you can defo muscle past that, lefties recovery helps that too.


despite all this, I still think enam is a tough mon to justify when iron valiant is so potent. it absolutely has a place but it does suffer from a just ok speed tier, a pretty mid set of abilities (I'm aware some mons are perfectly fine without their ability like darkrai and non booster paradox mons, enam just doesn't have the traits to still be great without a very useful ability) and not being immediately threatening, its potent in the right circumstances but is otherwise just a good™ mon. the main reason you'd want to use it over iron valiant is tools like scarf sets with healing wish and its better defensive profile.