Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[bern]

y'all i'm gonna be completely honest the metagame discussion chat in 1v1 has been nothing more than toxicity every single day, i know that saying it won't change anything and i know that someone like drip could say that i should be the change i wish to see, but it's not something i'm highly worried about rn, what i am worried about rn is people just spreading misinformation and getting super salty over different opinions, as much as i hate mini-modding felucia is in loa and lost heros is busy with tlt so: please take it easy in there, for the sake of the community. i'm not saying it as a council member or someone with status i'm genuinely like worried about y'all so please just relax, and discuss.

now as a council member uhhh i guess i do have stuff to say about the recent developments in the metagame and what people are saying in both discord and smogon, so i shall try.

- now people are really throwing around the meaning of a complex ban and stuff and there's a whole thread so i'll just give you the tl;dr of that, banning multiscale is not a complex ban, it is a regular ban with the added effect of unbanning a specific pokemon. that said i will regurgitate what radu said earlier, it is (for the most part) a signature ability. it is exclusive to dragonite and lugia and while lugia is an uber with humongo stats that shouldn't even be considered, dragonite has middling to good stats while having multiscale and a huge movepool that includes encore, roost, dragon dance, etc. point is that this guy is broken af, in part thanks to multiscale, in part thanks to other stuff like its great movepool, now the main reason why this shouldn't be allowed is because this isn't how tiering works, you may think it doesn't matter, but sometimes it do, because this would be like banning libero just because cinderace has it even though raboot is right there and it's terrible, opposite example include how diglett saw use after dugtrio got banned due to arena trap, or bidoof using moody in ubers, and this is sort of why we mainly ban pokemon, not abilities or moves or items, we never banned booster energy even though that's what made scream tail, flutter and gouging really good and also what makes iron valiant unhealthy to some, we never banned dire claw despite complaints due to it being a move stuck on a pokemon that only would use it for losing matchups or for the double poison move, and we never banned multiscale for 5 years and we chose to ban dragonite instead.
tl;dr multiscale is probably not getting banned.

i don't feel like talking about hoopa-u atm maybe i'll do it later. once again i ask that your posts remain in-place and that debates in #meta-discussion remain civil, ty and gn.

 

[fake tom numbers]

imagine being in the 1v1 discord smh!
I WILL BE MAKING A BIGGER, MORE EXPANSIVE AND MASSIVE POST "LATER" DETAILING EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP WITH HOOPA-UNBOUND, EVERY SET AND MOVE AND EV SPREAD AS WELL.

- now people are really throwing around the meaning of a complex ban and stuff and there's a whole thread so i'll just give you the tl;dr of that, banning multiscale is not a complex ban, it is a regular ban with the added effect of unbanning a specific pokemon. that said i will regurgitate what radu said earlier, it is (for the most part) a signature ability. it is exclusive to dragonite and lugia and while lugia is an uber with humongo stats that shouldn't even be considered, dragonite has middling to good stats while having multiscale and a huge movepool that includes encore, roost, dragon dance, etc. point is that this guy is broken af, in part thanks to multiscale, in part thanks to other stuff like its great movepool, now the main reason why this shouldn't be allowed is because this isn't how tiering works, you may think it doesn't matter, but sometimes it do, because this would be like banning libero just because cinderace has it even though raboot is right there and it's terrible, opposite example include how diglett saw use after dugtrio got banned due to arena trap, or bidoof using moody in ubers, and this is sort of why we mainly ban pokemon, not abilities or moves or items, we never banned booster energy even though that's what made scream tail, flutter and gouging really good and also what makes iron valiant unhealthy to some, we never banned dire claw despite complaints due to it being a move stuck on a pokemon that only would use it for losing matchups or for the double poison move, and we never banned multiscale for 5 years and we chose to ban dragonite instead.

Unlike your examples Dragonite doesn't have a baby form or any other mon that gets Multiscale that can be used, unlike something with Libero (because at least Raboot was somewhat viable?) so I think Dragonite could be interesting to use with the addition of Encore.

Also Hoopa kinda mid ngl, hard to fit on teams but yes it is annoying so I personally wouldn't care if it got banned

and maybe axe half of the sv council cuz it takes centuries to ban one guy

and tlt is bad

Thanks for reading :)

 

[RTM]

imagine being in the 1v1 discord smh!
I WILL BE MAKING A BIGGER, MORE EXPANSIVE AND MASSIVE POST "LATER" DETAILING EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP WITH HOOPA-UNBOUND, EVERY SET AND MOVE AND EV SPREAD AS WELL.

Unlike your examples Dragonite doesn't have a baby form or any other mon that gets Multiscale that can be used, unlike something with Libero (because at least Raboot was somewhat viable?) so I think Dragonite could be interesting to use with the addition of Encore.

Also Hoopa kinda mid ngl, hard to fit on teams but yes it is annoying so I personally wouldn't care if it got banned

and maybe axe half of the sv council cuz it takes centuries to ban one guy

and tlt is bad

Thanks for reading :)

the way i was explained it which changed my mind is: you don't tier to 'nerf' pokemon. you don't ban v-create over victini (think ss) because it's the only thing that legally obtains it.
would it make it worse and perhaps healthy? sure
should you tier like this? absolutely not

thinking about sv ou, early in the gen, houndstone was banned as the only thing that obtained last respects. later, when basculeigon and basculin white-striped were introduced, last respects was banned as a whole as the move was deemed it was broken in itself, rather than the pokemon being broken. the same thing happened with shed tail.

comparing this to annihilape in ou, which was banned for its use of rage fist. why was it banned and not rage fist? primeape is the other legal user of rage fist and is not broken in ou despite this move, sitting in zu.

following this logic, for multiscale to be banned, it would have to be deemed to be broken in general, making both dragonite and lugia broken. this is where the trouble begins however, as for multiscale to be banned over dragonite, non-multiscale (pressure) lugia would need to be a healthy presence in 1v1, in the same way that primeape is a healthy rage fist user in sv ou. basically, is multiscale the only reason lugia is broken? if it is then sure, ban multiscale, but otherwise it's just each individual mon being broken in their own regard.

while a lugia suspect would be funny, it's clearly a waste of time. (RADU new ubers tryout mon dropped!)

1v1 meta discussion channel has been fine since drago ban, discussion has been respectful. people will still disagree on things, it's just a matter of respecting people's opinions and not pushing to convince someone something (even if they're objectively wrong) to the point they feel stupid.

 

[SuperMemeBroz]

- now people are really throwing around the meaning of a complex ban and stuff and there's a whole thread so i'll just give you the tl;dr of that, banning multiscale is not a complex ban, it is a regular ban with the added effect of unbanning a specific pokemon. that said i will regurgitate what radu said earlier, it is (for the most part) a signature ability. it is exclusive to dragonite and lugia and while lugia is an uber with humongo stats that shouldn't even be considered, dragonite has middling to good stats while having multiscale and a huge movepool that includes encore, roost, dragon dance, etc. point is that this guy is broken af, in part thanks to multiscale, in part thanks to other stuff like its great movepool, now the main reason why this shouldn't be allowed is because this isn't how tiering works, you may think it doesn't matter, but sometimes it do, because this would be like banning libero just because cinderace has it even though raboot is right there and it's terrible, opposite example include how diglett saw use after dugtrio got banned due to arena trap, or bidoof using moody in ubers, and this is sort of why we mainly ban pokemon, not abilities or moves or items, we never banned booster energy even though that's what made scream tail, flutter and gouging really good and also what makes iron valiant unhealthy to some, we never banned dire claw despite complaints due to it being a move stuck on a pokemon that only would use it for losing matchups or for the double poison move, and we never banned multiscale for 5 years and we chose to ban dragonite instead.
tl;dr multiscale is probably not getting banned.

This post fails to realize why I mentioned the thought of unbanning Multiscale in the first place.

The comparison of libero, moody, or booster energy is a poor argument when other Pokémon get the move. Yes lugia gets Multiscale but realistically w/o it, lugia will still be banned and a suspect is a waste of time.

In this tier, Dragonite is the sworn user of Multiscale. You have also failed the realization of the banning of last respects in ou and especially power construct in ss 1v1. Dire claw is just rng the move but from what I’ve seen, nothing really changes even if it was ban.

Your reasoning for the banning of Dragonite instead did Multiscale is flawed and in this specific case with Dragonite, it doesn’t matter. At most, it’ll matter for different tiers since Dragonite has a different movepool across gens, Even if a sv dnite was busted, a fucking bw dnite wouldn’t in my dyes.

Tbh your post seems to be super flawed with why Dragonite should be banned instead of Multiscale with things that realistically aren’t comparable to Multiscale when in this case, Dragonite is the sole user unlike stuff like booster energy, libero.

Which justifies the banning of only Multiscale even more.

 

[Murm]

There are two conditions that must be met in order to ban an ability or move instead of the Pokemon using them.

1) The ability / move must be broken on every abuser. These are 6v6 examples but you see this with stuff like Arena Trap, where people were using Diglett once Dugtrio was banned, leading to an Arena Trap ban. A 1v1 example of this condition not being met would be Libero, where Libero Raboot is perfectly fine, but Libero Cinderace is too much. While this condition is technically met due to the lack of weak abusers, in theory there could be reasonable Multiscale Pokemon in the future.

2) There must be multiple abusers that would be legal if the ability / move is banned. This condition is not met since Dragonite would be the only Pokemon unbanned from a Multiscale ban. Lugia would still be way too much for the tier. Some precedent of this (again 6v6 but still) is the Last Respects situation. All of the abusers were broken, but at first there was only one abuser (Houndstone), so the abuser was banned, but when another abuser was introduced (Basculegion), the move was banned instead.

I know people will and have brought up the SS Zygarde ban, it's a weird situation since technically all of the Zygarde forms are under one Pokedex number, so I don't know.

Either way, banning Multiscale over Dragonite, like it or not, is just against tiering policy.

 

[lost heros]

This post fails to realize why I mentioned the thought of unbanning Multiscale in the first place.

The comparison of libero, moody, or booster energy is a poor argument when other Pokémon get the move. Yes lugia gets Multiscale but realistically w/o it, lugia will still be banned and a suspect is a waste of time.

In this tier, Dragonite is the sworn user of Multiscale. You have also failed the realization of the banning of last respects in ou and especially power construct in ss 1v1. Dire claw is just rng the move but from what I’ve seen, nothing really changes even if it was ban.

Your reasoning for the banning of Dragonite instead did Multiscale is flawed and in this specific case with Dragonite, it doesn’t matter. At most, it’ll matter for different tiers since Dragonite has a different movepool across gens, Even if a sv dnite was busted, a fucking bw dnite wouldn’t in my dyes.

Tbh your post seems to be super flawed with why Dragonite should be banned instead of Multiscale with things that realistically aren’t comparable to Multiscale when in this case, Dragonite is the sole user unlike stuff like booster energy, libero.

Which justifies the banning of only Multiscale even more.

Except this is still a fundamental deviation from standard tiering practice.

RTM put it above the best in that we don't tier in order to try to nerf or buff pokemon. That's not our job.

Sure multiscale is only legal on Dragonite, and maybe if we only have Inner Focus Dragonite, it will probably be balanced, but that opens up the question for a lot of other weird bans and weird questions.

Would Regidrago be fine if we only remove Dragon Energy?
Would Archaludon be fine if we only remove Electro Shot?
Would Magearna be fine without Fleur Cannon?

If we start looking at some of our top tier pokemon who *may* be overbearing:
Would Iron Crown be considered less banworthy without Tachyon Cutter?
Would Hoopa-U be easier to deal with if there's no Hyperspace Fury?

The list goes on. Even though these bans aren't technically complex, they all still target a unique element to try and bring the overall abuser in line with the rest of the tier, and while this may sound appealing, this goes against the predominant smogon philosophy that we tier whole elements to the best of our ability.

It's a lot of reading but the discussion about Terapagos-Stellar might help give some insight on to why this isn't really an option.

 

[Joker 1v1]

One last thing: I am tired of the uncertainty that brings.
Yes this pokemon is beatable. Yes, its defense is terrible.
But when you're staring it down at preview unless you have a few very specific counters it never feels safe to click versus it.
It totally may be a skill issue on my end, but this pokemon is just not fun from a teambuilding and playing perspective.
Its raw versatility means that you can't outbulk it on the physical or special side and all it needs to do to 3-0 so many teams is just randomly slot in a coverage move or trick or something random, etc.

Dw fruan I got you

 

[MattC (Banned)]

I WILL BE MAKING A BIGGER, MORE EXPANSIVE AND MASSIVE POST "LATER" DETAILING EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP WITH HOOPA-UNBOUND, EVERY SET AND MOVE AND EV SPREAD AS WELL.

Me patiently waiting for the Hoopa-Unbound post (later has yet to come)

Idk man thread is dead and imma reignite it fr