Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

My Response to the Survey
​
Enjoyment: 5/10
SV OU has a lot of variety when it comes to the mons and archetypes that can be played rn. The Roaring Moon ban brought the meta into a more enjoyable spot. So why did I vote a 5? Because I’m not enjoying myself as a player lately and I don’t know where I land skill-wise, but I’ll spare you the sob story.

Competitiveness: 3/10
This meta is so unserious. As long as Tera Blast existed and most SV OU games are determined by matchups more than skill, SV OU will continue being chaotic in how games are swung.

IMG_1943.png
3
I put 4 in the original survey, but the more I look back at my original post and also lucky333 ‘s post regarding Nite, the less sure I feel about it being unhealthy or not. It can cheese games really easily with the right set, but there are ways to force Dnite into uncomfortable positions that hinder its ability to clean up in the lategame. You can force it in with Wellspring or other mons. You can utilize team synergies like Zama + Pecha to cover most Nite variants. Or you can preserve Tera on something like Gambit to beat it in the late game. The BS this stupid barney ahh dragon can pull off is cringe, but I find the ability to navigate your way into the Nite endgame to be a skill check that SV OU players must learn as they reach the high level, and I think that’s cool.

IMG_6231.png
2
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The archetypes that SD Gliscor historically demolished have adapted to it. G-Weez’s skyhigh popularity as of recent on Balance/Stall cannot be understated. This has allowed double Defog Stalls to disrupt the main wincon of SD Gliscor, (set spikes, Knock Dozo, win). Other Balances have ways to make Gliscor uncomfortable with setting up. Ting-Lu can Ruination it down to 60% and Whirlwind it out in exchange for losing Lefties. Corv can U-Turn into Zama or an Ice-move mon. Gking can stay in and click Ice Beam. Sure, Gliscor Teras and ice moves are no biggie, but then you are opening yourself to Spikes and a Body Press weakness. SD Gliscor has other crippling flaws such as a poor MU into offense and lacking immediate horsepower, unlike the next breaker I’ll be discussing.

IMG_8335.png
2
Stealth Rock sends its regards. Kyurem is a balanced wallbreaker due to its difficulty of being splashed, its lack of defensive utility, and ofc…hazards. Identifying the Kyurem set is doable due to how fixed most Kyurem structures tend to be. (DD on offense, Specs/Mixed Boots on BO, Sub-Tect on Balance)

IMG_7214.png
3
I’m conflicted about Wellspring. On one hand, its chokehold on Balance teams and moveset variety makes Ogre way to overbearing. Its ability to overwhelm every physical wall in the tier with braindead Cudgel, makes setting up lategame cleans cheap aa hell. On the other hand, when you look at the roster of physically-offensive breakers, Wellspring is one of the only consistent ones left. Think about it. Samu is slow and can sometimes dud into G-Weezing. Weavile is strong, but suffers from inconsistent Ice STAB and lacking the defensibe utility Wogre offers. And then there’s Luna….we don’t talk about him. The point is, Wellspring serves an important role in the metagame that is difficult to replace unlike previously banned mons such as Roaring Moon. Removing Ogre would lead to major changes in the tier that are both great and awful. What do you think?

Tera Blast: 4
Stupid cheese move. If we were to remove Tera Blast, Dnite, Kyu, and Gambit would not be in this discussion.

Anything else?: Kingambit :kingambit:
I’m keeping my eye on this dude. I said this during SPL, but players will remember how bs Gambit is and start yelling “ban diss”. Same deal as Dnite. Cheesy ass sweeper that has varying counterplay depending on the Tera Type and moveset (Iron Head/Low Kick/Tera Fairy Blast). I’ll elaborate further in the future if I need to, but rn I’m tired. I just finished my finals.
 
I think my enjoyment is about a 7 since the Moon ban. That was really positive to me. Competitiveness is still only a 6. There is still a bit too much cheese for my tastes, but it isn't as bad as it was.

Dragonite is a 1. It's not broken. There are many built in flaws that make it more manageable like it's speed tier and lack of natural STAB priority. The set diversity is sort of an issue in the builder, maybe, but I don't think it's that hard to predict if TB is gone. You have E-speed, some common coverage moves, and Encore to look out for. Even without that, Dragonite counterplay is fairly straightforward.

Gliscor is a 1. It's not broken. It's annoying, but it's not broken. The SD set has somewhat different counterplay than the more passive Toxic/hazards type sets, but both do have counterplay that isn't too difficult to fit on teams. Encore also just wrecks this thing. I've made larger posts about counterplay back when we had the last suspect, so I'll say less. It is an important glue mon option for defensive structures.

Kyurem is a 5. I just don't enjoy the guessing game between devastating special wallbreaker, Dragon Dance sweeper, and other possibilities like mixed or PP stall. There is a lot of inherent pressure on the opposing player in the scouting proccess. It's not even often that difficult to figure Kyurem out soon enough in game if you assume it's a special set and have a check in case it is DD. The issue is that this really restricts what you can do in the builder because you need your team to be able to check to both special and Dragon Dance variants with some boost. The threat of Freeze Dry and/or mixed sets further limits what options you could use. I remember the meta briefly without Kyurem. The builder felt much less retrained because of it.

Wellspring was a 3 for me. It's maybe borderline, but I don't think it's too much of an issue. And this is from the person who was testing a mixed Manaphy set with basically just Water moves and U-turn. Wellsprings speed tier is good, not great.. If you are building a slower team, you just need to tech in some things that can check it.

Tera Blast is a 5. It's cheese. It enables STAB combinations most sweepers weren't meant to have. Getting rid of it won't solve most of the issues with Tera and accelerated setup sweepers, but it would solve some of the variance issues and mathup fishing. Also, many of the former most broken sweepers like Volc and Moon were banned anyways. So variance being a greater focus is maybe better.

Anything else? Not really. I think a TB ban would take the edge off of pretty much everything left that wasn't already listed here, such as Gambit.

I'd personally really like to see a meta without Kyurem or Tera Blast. Then we xould unban Regieleki, but let none of those broken speed + power boosting setup mons back. That would probably be the ideal state,.
 
I have to say I'm pretty shocked reading these posts. I personally put tera blast as a 5 on the survey, above any of the other options, and I thought that was a pretty hot take, but sentiment has really shifted by the looks of it, a lot of people put the same. The thing about tera blast is we know there cannot be metagame adaptation to counter it, tera blast is the one doing the adapting.

One thing I'm hesitant about is that if we unban terablast, we have to unban quite a number of previous bans and that feels like going backwards. But maybe that's sunk cost fallacy. If tera blast is the issue then we shouldnt burden ourself by continuing down the wrong path.

One thing is clear to me: several Pokemon this generation were broken or suspected because of tera blast. Esparthra, roaring moon, volcarona, kingambit and now Dragonite is in the hot seat after its terablast ghost performance. Tera last electric kyurem basically feels like Zekrom as well. There's something there worth investigating.
 
ig I'll throw my own hat into this ring

Enjoyment: 5
Competitiveness:8

Enjoyment is less a fault of tiering decisions moreso just me being burnt out from the tier tbh, maybe if I come back to it eventually I'd like it more but rn I'm bored of it

despite that I still think its a relatively competitive tier, with tera being a guarantee to stay, I have come round on it a bit whereas before I would've advocated for its ban. Using tera is a key skill benchmark of this tier and using it well is essential to consistent success. Each team demands tera in a different way and each mon exploits the mechanic differently, from the builder to the battle the choice of your tera type and when to use it is something I find very nice about Gen 9 as a whole.

granted I still have my gripes but those are with the mons mentioned

Dragonite:2/5 I don't think dragonite is a problem at all tbh, it can be annoying at times with its encore sets but its lack of immediate threat potential due to it often not running stabs and its nature as a massive tera sink leave it lacking in some areas. It is one of the premier physical sweepers of the tier and is a threat that should be taken seriously in the teambuiler, but I'd say it doesn't constrain the builder as much as the banned tera abusers like volc and roaring moon ever did. I can see the argument that its variety with tera can make it somewhat unpredictable, but I feel tera blast causes some of those issues especially with tera blast flying sets. I also think Dragonite has some value defensively for the tier, and contributes much more to it than roaring moon did.


Gliscor:4/5 I wouldn't mind a gliscor suspect, its comical how nuts this mon is, incredibly tanky, has passive healing for days, and can be immensely threatening with tera normal sd facade. Its one of the best if not the best bulky wincon in the tier and on top of that is an excellent spike setter carrying knock off and toxic for progress against defensive walls. I would've put it at 5 previously, but some adaptations have gone against it, the rise of Galarian Weezing has been a thorn in its side for a mon so reliant on its ability, and it does always have to be careful of that omnipresent 4x ice weakness, nothing tera can't fix tho. Despite these shortfalls, Gliscor continues to be a pain for several team structures and can feel unkillable at times, it can pull wins out of thin air sometimes with how easy it is for gliscor to setup, its spikestack set is also notable but I wouldn't call that one broken, I imagine most of the issues people have with Gliscor are its sd set.

Kyurem:5/5 I hate kyurem with a passion, and I will continue to lament that it wasn't banned earlier in the generation. While yes its defensive utility is definitely not great, it has some truly devastating wallbreaking potential making it a massive constraint on balance/fat structures. if given the opportunity it can tear a team to shreds at the drop of a hat and at the click of a tera. I think the tier is better off without it.

Wellspring:3/5 I've come to peace with wellspring a bit, but not fully. Wellspring does have some flaws, its speed tier for one being just ok (crazy how 110 speed isn't amazing nowadays) and a constant hazard weakness that has to be supplemented with a lot of hazard control. these two leave it liable to be revenge killed and also be worn down over the course of a game. However, Wellspring also has some absurd traits, its breaking power is incredible, while it can't hold boots, the Wellspring mask giving it a free 20% boost on all of its moves is something I still don't understand the logic behind till this day. with encore and taunt it can also shut down balance in a similar way to kyurem and proceed to click its massive ivy cudgel and start blasting. Its lack of tera flexibility and less set variety does make it more predictable than Kyurem, but that doesn't take away from its ability to just muscle its way through several soft checks including pecharunt, dragonite, and zapdos


Tera Blast: 5/5 (idk if I voted 4 on the survey by accident I think I did and I'm sad about that) because it is a 5, this move is stupid and does nothing but enable cheese, its what enables kyurem to annihilate checks it has no right breaking through like iron crown. Its what enables dnite to blast through things with flying stab, it enabled roaring moons tera fairy blast to shred several structures. (there were more issues than just tera blast with roaring moon, but it certainly didn't help) and crucially unlike tera as a whole, this move doesn't really benefit defensive counterplay. Tera can be used to flip your checks on their head as a defensive mon, like tera dark on Pecharunt, but tera blast merely enables the sweepers abusing tera to supplant their lack of coverage to the fullest. I already said my piece about Kyurem and yes I wouldn't mind it being banned, but also would half those issues exist if tera blast wasn't an option? Some users of the move aren't broken, Enamorus certainly doesn't destroy entire teams with its stellar tera blast set, but it has enabled sweepers to circumvent defensive counterplay and make them more volatile and worse to predict. This move just sucks, and is the main thing hindering competitiveness in the tier.
 
Dragonite: 2/5. Dragonite is a mixed bag for me. It's ability to be slotted on all team structures barring stall via its customizable sets is amazing for teambuilding and giving a variety of teams a good anti offense mon should always be appreciated in SV's environment, The main issue comes with dragonite's multiple tera blast sets. In a way it reminds me a lot of volcarona before its ban. Where a set up pokemon with a very enjoyed and needed profile in the builder and metagame is supposedly pushed over the edge by tera blast. Though I'm probably a bit less on the fearmongering side of tera blast dragonite in particular as I find there is a lot of general counterplay like fp pech, twave/wisp mons, taunt, phazing, scarf ghold, lando etc. that make tera blast dnite a lot less threatening than I think people care to admit. I also find that even if dnite was tested over tera blast for whatever reasoning I would never find myself voting ban, I think dnites presence in the tier is needed and tblast is not pushing it enough to make it broken.

Gliscor: 2/5. Not much to say here unlike dnite, All the defensive gliscor sets are fine. SD facade feels a bit too good into fat and some balances but it has enough flaws to really not have it be worthy of a test. SD gliscor has been dropping in usage for a reason and I feel like a lot of the support for a suspect/ban comes from a personal issue with how gliscor is played rather than It's actual banworthiness.

Kyurem: 1/5. IDK why this is really an issue at all to people. Kyurem is one of my personal favorite pokemon right now to use due to its customizability. Its defensive profile is enjoyable to be a soft check to multiple mons rn while on the offensive side having enough flaws to mitigate any supposed overpoweredness. Any non hdb set is very weak to hazards while hdb lacks either the power or longetivity of leftovers to be enough of a threat imo. While its other sets are easy to read on preview and are very easy to pressure. DD physical sets even with tera blast feel like a non-issue just being another good offensive physical set up mon which teams should have ways to generally beat. While its more unswitcheable sets like NMI or Specs Require aggresive play by more balanced and bulky teams to force it not to come in or take rocks chip. I feel like a lot of issues people have with this is playing passive with more bulky teams vs a specs kyurem and getting punished as they let it come in 10 times a game. Sub Protect has both the issues vs offense of specs while lacking damage. In a tier where mons like av crown, av prim, av hatt, roar spedef molt are all becoming better I find sub protect to be the worse its ever been.

Wellspring: 2/5. Wellspring is about as balanced as it has ever been with dnite arguably being the best pokemon rn and being a good check into most wellspring checks alongside pecharunt usage and general teras on defensive teams being very anti wellspring. Not to say wellspring is bad because its insanely good rn. But its best sets are ones focused on using its support movepool rather than just a strong sd 3 attacks mon. Taunt, Encore, Synth, Spikes, are what makes ogerpon amazing but also keep it from being banworthy as those arent threatening enough to break through teams as people try to imply it can do by itself.

Tera Blast: 3/5. Tera Blast should have been tested way earlier but I'm glad people want it to be looked into now atleast. its been breaking mons with otherwise good presence's like roaring moon, volcarona, and eleki, all the while making Pokemon stayed unbanned with it like Dragonite feel like unfair offensive threats. The ability to not only swap your defensive matchup but also gain a strong stab coverage move feels like it too drastactly changes matchups to an unhealthy degree. This is the only think on the survey I do push for a suspect for

Write Ins: Re-Suspect Zamazenta-Crowned and Regieleki. Both of these guys can be argued to not be broken in Ou and add things to the tier that would improve options and play. Zamazenta-Crowned I'm very confident would-be OU material while eleki I'm much more mixed on but thats why suspects for these guys exists instead of just drops
 
Pinecoishot said:
Write Ins: Re-Suspect Zamazenta-Crowned and Regieleki. Both of these guys can be argued to not be broken in Ou and add things to the tier that would improve options and play. Zamazenta-Crowned I'm very confident would-be OU material while eleki I'm much more mixed on but thats why suspects for these guys exists instead of just drops
Click to expand...
Tbh eleki I can kinda see but it is just another anti offence mon with boltbeam coverage and that archetype is already not doing amazing. Meanwhile zamazenta crowned is a similar issue and yes it is hazard weak and lacks reliable recovery it's tankiness was a massive problem for teams that couldn't reliably force it out if they didn't pack an answer, zama hero is already the best mon in the tier idt zama crowned will be very fun to deal with imo but I can see the case for both
 
Pinecoishot said:
Write Ins: Re-Suspect Zamazenta-Crowned and Regieleki. Both of these guys can be argued to not be broken in Ou and add things to the tier that would improve options and play. Zamazenta-Crowned I'm very confident would-be OU material while eleki I'm much more mixed on but thats why suspects for these guys exists instead of just drops
Click to expand...

Neither of these bring anything of value to the tier and just add another chore to account for on top of everything else, when we really don’t need more. Eleki was brought up some time ago so I don’t feel like rehashing what I said back then about why it’s still broken, or at least, an unhealthy Pokémon to have around while Tera exists, but ZamaC is just too fat and has too good a typing to let it easily set up against even more things. Its lack of recovery is so easy to supplement by Mola, who coincidentally synergizes well thanks to the typing (and ZamaC would solve the Wellspring issue Mola has).
 
So far the only two things I want to suspect in the survey are Tera Blast and Kyurem.
Tera Blast is obvious because it's basically Hidden Power on Steroid.
Kyurem, while isn't insanely broken rn, is extremely annoying, especially with how it can freeze fishing and chance the course of the game.
I want to also add Darkrai. It's fast, has good coverage and decent enough bulk and can also cripple checks that can switch into it with optional choices like Wisp or Knock, as well as KOing Gambit with Focus Blast.
 
Moyashi said:
Neither of these bring anything of value to the tier and just add another chore to account for on top of everything else, when we really don’t need more. Eleki was brought up some time ago so I don’t feel like rehashing what I said back then about why it’s still broken, or at least, an unhealthy Pokémon to have around while Tera exists, but ZamaC is just too fat and has too good a typing to let it easily set up against even more things. Its lack of recovery is so easy to supplement by Mola, who coincidentally synergizes well thanks to the typing (and ZamaC would solve the Wellspring issue Mola has).
Click to expand...
its this tbh, while idt either are broken in a vacuum they add nothing to the tier and are still gonna be pretty oppressive against certain archetypes, again regieleki completely mauls offence meanwhile zama c would be an even scarier zama hero amplifying the teams which the former already fits on very well.
 
Pinecoishot said:
Tera Blast: 3/5. Tera Blast should have been tested way earlier but I'm glad people want it to be looked into now atleast. its been breaking mons with otherwise good presence's like roaring moon, volcarona, and eleki, all the while making Pokemon stayed unbanned with it like Dragonite feel like unfair offensive threats. The ability to not only swap your defensive matchup but also gain a strong stab coverage move feels like it too drastactly changes matchups to an unhealthy degree. This is the only think on the survey I do push for a suspect for

Write Ins: Re-Suspect Zamazenta-Crowned and Regieleki. Both of these guys can be argued to not be broken in Ou and add things to the tier that would improve options and play. Zamazenta-Crowned I'm very confident would-be OU material while eleki I'm much more mixed on but thats why suspects for these guys exists instead of just drops
Click to expand...
Crowned Shield Zamazenta would be completely unbalanced in OU, it gains steel typing which negates fighting’s flying, psychic and fairy weakness and gives it a toxic immunity, its 128 speed tier is still amazing even if its not outright perfect, it has outstanding bulk both sides which is perfect for an iron press sweeper since it may not even need any defense evs and its inability to hold heavy duty boots is not a sufficent drawback when it can’t be effected by toxic spikes and takes very little damage from stealth rock, so its only drawback is being slightly slower than Hero of many battles Zamazenta and having a weakness to ground and fighting, which can be negated by tera which it would be a perfect user of due to its outstanding defenses. It would be too over centralising for the tier and would restrict team building.

Also I do believe roaring moon did not have a good presence without tera blast due to it being mainly problematic due to its many sets that insta won with one turn of set up, the only notable set in my opinion that used tb was tera fairy, its tera flying acrobatics and taunt sets were already messed up enough and the arrival of tera fairy just made this already unhealthy mon worse.
 
I apologize for the lack of profile picture, Whimsicott is out mowing the lawn.

Enjoyment: 8. I am happy to say that this is by far the most enjoyment I've had in OU this generation.
Competitiveness: 6. While I do think that the tier is generally pretty competitive, it still kinda feels unserious a lot of the times and there's more work needed to be done to fix that.

Dragonite: 3/5. I enjoy using Dragonite and consider it the best mon in the tier right now. It can run a wide variety of tera types, items, moves, ev spreads to great effect, pretty much filling whatever role you need it to fill. That being said, I do not think that Dragonite is broken as it stands. The recent uptick in experimentation with different tera types (outside of the standard tera normal e-speed sets) has made me seriously question whether or not it should stay in the tier. As Pinecoishot mentioned earlier, Dragonite currently reminds me of Volcarona in the ways it could vary its sets to great success. That being said, it isn't some unstoppable force in the metagame. You can usually tell a lot about the Dragonite set just by the teams it finds itself on (to read more about this, lucky333 made an incredible post, go check it out). Additionally, many of Dragonite's best checks are incredible pokemon within their own right (just to list a few, Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Pecharunt, Landorus, and encore pokemon like Iron Valiant). A lot of the time, solid teams will end up having multiple ways to deal with Dragonite, making it feel less broken in practice. Additionally, Dragonite has a very useful defensive profile with multiscale, often forcing it to waste its muItiscale before it can get a sweep going. I'm not opposed to a Dragonite suspect, but I feel like there are other more important things to worry about in the tier right now.

Gliscor: 1/5. Gliscor is fine, annoying at best. With the rise of Galarian Weezing on stall and balance teams, Gliscor has shifted to running active sets like swords dance, even on full stall. As it stands right now, the meta is still offensive enough to where Gliscor doesn't feel immortal. I also think Gliscor has sort of been outclassed on teams that aren't stall or fat balance, mainly by the other grounds like Ting-Lu (which I have a far greater issue with).

Kyurem: 2/5. I don't really know why Kyurem still gets a lot of support. Kyurem has a lot of different sets it can choose from, not dissimilar to Dragonite in that aspect. Kyurem usually runs one of DD tera blast, subtect freeze dry earth power, subtect DD icicle spear, NMI mixed, or choice specs. My issue with Kyurem is that it's often really easy to see exactly what set it is just on team preview, even easier than Dragonite. Additionally, all of Kyurem's most problematic sets really need that item slot, whether it is loaded dice, leftovers, never melt ice, or choice specs. These sets thus cannot run heavy duty boots, making it easy to wear down over the course of the game. I think that individually these sets are still really powerful, even if you see them coming, but that does not mean they do not have any counterplay.

Ogerpon Wellspring: 1/5. Wellspring has been seeing a lot more experimentation recently, but mostly because its forced to do so. Swords Dance Ogerpon, while very powerful on the surface, really hates seeing the surge of pokemon like Dragonite and foul play Pecharunt, which ruin its day entirely. Wellspring has shifted towards sets using a combination of u-turn/spikes/taunt/encore/synthesis to break open teams over a longer period of time. Its matchup vs certain balance structures still feel quite overwhelming and I'm open to talking about it, but I don't think I'd call it broken as of now.

Tera Blast: 5/5. I genuinely see no downside in a tera blast test, and a world of potential upsides we could gain by banning it. Looking back at the last few bans, many of their most vocal advocates argued that tera blast pushed them over the edge. A tera blast ban allows us to reconsider previous decisions on powerful, yet balanced pokemon that were broken by tera blast.

Write Ins: (I apologize I have a lot to say here)
Stored Power: A stored power ban frees a lot of pokemon that would find a useful niche in the OU tier, mainly Magearna (the ultimate glue mon) and Espathra.
Terapagos-Terastal: The current tiering system currently couldn't handle allowing just Terapagos-Terastal and not its stellar form (the one you get by clicking tera stellar with this pokemon). This is a shame as it would undeniably be fine in the tier and provide another way of removing hazards in a tier that could use the help.
Zamazenta-Crowned: I wanna be brief about this guy since discussion on dropping ubers isn't allowed here, but I genuinely believe this thing is just outclassed in every way by its hero form, and that if survey support demands it, we should be open to talking about that.
 
Last edited:
kanato said:
Zamazenta-Crowned was banned shortly after the DLC dropped, and many (myself included) feel that the decision was made too hastily.
Click to expand...

It received very strong survey support for some kind of action alongside Chien Pao back then. I don’t know where this claim that “many” feel this way is coming from.

kanato said:
While its base stats and defensive profile might look intimidating, the combination of its lack of recovery, item lock, and general passivity makes it questionable whether it truly merited such a swift ban without giving the community and the metagame adequate time to adapt
Click to expand...

ZamaC is the furthest thing from passive what. But also it was a massive match up inducing headache with more limited counter play than Hero form had (and has). It won’t annihilate defense unfairly but it would be super unbalanced vs offense because of the typing, bulk and speed. It’s much harder to revenge kill, and especially nowadays with Mola running around keeping it healthy is not hard.

also as an aside, please don’t use Chat GPT. It’s not even very reliable as often, and it’s just bad for a lot of things. Nothing that it does is “polished”
 
kanato said:
(Lacking in writing ability, so I polished it with GPT)
Click to expand...
if you rly think that's the case, it would be better for you to practice your writing somewhere less consequential (here) so you don't actually have to rely on the bot for it at all. there are plenty of people on here who write like shit, but actual human thoughts>>>>>>AI every day of the week
kanato said:
...
Click to expand...
these arguments really aren't saying anything. in order for zamazenta-c to be unbanned you have to prove that it would make the metagame more competitive. arguing that zama-c isn't broken in a vacuum means nothing, you have to argue that zamazenta-c isn't broken in SV OU. you did not once in your post mention any aspects of the meta that zamazenta-c would impact— or any other mons besides zama at all for that matter—, address any mon beyond zamazenta-c itself, or address how zamazenta-c would impact the metagame beyond just saying "it was banned too hastily"

entire post reeks of AI & doesn't contain any useful analysis, would love to see the "unpolished" version so we actually have something to talk about :)
 
I think the fact that Zamazenta Crowned's only form of recovery being rest without having chesto berry to wake it up is a huge deal as it means that it can very easily be worn down. There are multiple faster targets that can beat it and if you thought before that Corviknight, Moltres, and Zapdos handled Zama pretty well now with Zama C the only way to beat them is to run stone edge (and even that only really works with Moltres). Speaking of which since it doesn't want to run rest anymore it is also very vulnerable to status (especially burn). Now to be fair, Zama C does have even better defensive stats than regular Zama and a better typing (WITH STAB HEAVY SLAM) but having no reliable recovery and no item makes it way worse defensively than other bulky pokemon like Ting Lu, Pecharunt, and even its hero form. For all of these reasons I think Zama C is not broken.

HOWEVER, I am not sure it would be healthy for one big reason and that is because of how battling works. You cannot see which form Zamazenta is until it hits the field. That means that considering they will probably play far differently, if you guess the wrong form, it could pretty much mean the game. Honestly this could be a straw man argument since you probably won't know most pokemon sets until they make their first move which is worse than what happens with Zama, but it could still be a potential problem.

Anyway, I do think Zama C could be suspected but the arguments I made in the second paragraph are important to note and it should also be noted that I am not entirely sure how Zama C would improve the metagame. Good night :)
 
ShizuOsaka said:
Also advocating Darkrai ban
Click to expand...
I used to be in favour of this but as time has gone on darkrai has become more and more manageable imo, it's best tool was fast sleep and that was taken away by the sleep ban so ever since then it's operated as a fast and strong stat stick with no ability and I feel it is a bit held back by that. It's set versatility makes it a great offensive utility tool and a stopgap to fast attackers with wisp as well as carrying a potential knock off, scarf sets act as great speed control which is nice for teams that need a cleaner. But at the same time it's not stellar bulk and it's just ok mono dark typing leave it unable to switch in super safely on incoming attacks and it's definitely not so fast to the point where it can't be dealt with, with mons like pult zama and booster valiant running around, and on the defensive end it has less but still valid counterplay with pokemon like zapdos able to live an ice beam and paralyze it, tinkaton which shuts it down entirely, corviknight and to a lesser extent clefable

It's a scary mon, but I don't really see it a too problematic. Its frailty being a big part in that
 
ShizuOsaka said:
Also advocating Darkrai ban
Click to expand...
I don't know, darkrai unban has to be my favorite tiering decision regarding the tier. Not only did it get sleep banned, it added one of the most fair, and emblematic of pokemon as game, pokemon to the tier.

Great utility options with knock, twave, wisp, trick and taunt, great coverage options without being overwhelmingly strong since most bulky mons are still 2hko'd at best barring boosts and 4x weakness, can become a breaker with np/ebelt/lorb at the cost of coverage or longevity and has just enough bulk to live one strong, neutral hit. I guess really the only parts of this mon that are annoying to play around are the secondary effects of every single attack it has since these are only semi-accountable at best but hey, that's mons
 
Enjoyment: 7/10
As I said in my last post, after taking a break of about 6 months and coming back to SV post-Moon ban I think the meta is better than it has been in a long time, perhaps since launch. It's been a rocky journey, and the only gen where I've taken several long breaks away from the game to protect my peace lol. SV in its current form is fun if you like Smogon Singles 6v6 OU. The builder is rewarding and frankly demanding to try and mitigate all the threats and playstyles. The ladder has a lot of variety. The mons are cool. This is all coming from one of SV's most vocal critics. I suggest taking some time away from the game or playing another meta for awhile if you really can't find a way to have some fun with what we have now.
Competitiveness: 6/10
Tera. Comp will always be hard stuck at 6 for me, just on the principle that the mechanic is fundamentally uncompetitive. I knew when I first saw the SV trailer... when that Tyranitar turned Ghost.. I knew we would have another gen where we have to remove a goofy mechanic. In no way did I think we would adjust to such a objectively silly way to play OU, but here we are. We lost mons, major tours have been won off legitimately unpredictable Tera sets, the ladder has been practically unplayable at times, and my sanity was put at risk lmao. I understand now why it stayed, but the meta has been so up and (mostly) down 100% due to the decision to keep the gimmick. There are ppl who I have been chatting and battling with for years that have walked away not just from SV but Showdown in general due to Tera. Objectively, it's pretty uncompetitive; but personally, and after 2 years of getting used to the gimmick, I would load up a SV game over an ORAS game because T-wave is wildly uncompetitive that gen and more frustrating. I'd rather lose to some random Tera, laugh, and move on, than be winning for 50 turns and lose to 3 full paras in a row. Every gen has something janky and unfair. That said, if you say comp is at a 5 or even a 4 I would not argue with you.
Dragonite: 4/5
E-cheese! Meta-glue or just really annoying? Kinda sick of running Tera Ghost on mons just so all my progress instantly isn't invalidated by a button clicker.
You can check out all my old posts, I am not a "wall of calcs in a vacuum" type of poster, but I'm not sure if ppl actually realize how oppressive this shit is. Keep in mind, hazards are very real this gen. And remember, this is priority.. +2 even. The 2hkos aren't RK Nite. They can't set up to be faster. Scarf is meaningless.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 279-328 (92.6 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 313-369 (111.3 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 295-348 (102 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 240-283 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 294-346 (97.6 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 280-330 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 240-283 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But dude, those are glass cannons! Well, here are some bulky mons that literally can't switch in, and if Nite has Multiscale up, they aren't even checks you can send in safely on a free turn.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Primarina: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 171-202 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raging Bolt: 237-280 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 238-282 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dedicated defensive mons, even Steel types, really aren't safe in the long game. They get one (1) switch in, where the opp can just switch out and repeat the process later on and get a KO.. even on really bulky mons with a type advantage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 175-207 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tinkaton: 136-161 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 110-129 (34.2 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Again, sorry for the wall but damn. Anything not Ghost or like Corv/Dozo/Garg is having a hard time. Mons can defensive Tera into Steel or Ghost, of course, but then we have a situation where you are literally forced to Tera, which is not how you want your Tera play to go usually, and then your emergency tera mon is potentially no longer a check to other things.
This is just E-Cheese Nite- the dance sets with one of the like 7 viable TB are pretty insane. Then we have Encore, Dragon Tail... which are like great tools but idk if that's worth all of the above calcs and its impact on the game. I actually don't see that many banded extreme speed sets lately, the dance sets are most popular, but idk. What is this mon actually adding to the health of the meta, and does that outweigh some really ridiculous situations. The mon kinda feels like MU Moth 2.0 where it can literally pick and choose its counters. I was handling it with Zama but there's been an uptick of DD, TB Ghost, Encore and Low Kick, which yeah, there we have Nite picking what mons it wants to hard counter and set up on- whatever is best for the team structure to set the other 5 mons up for success.
All that said, I'm used to it. It's a "tera hog" which always is a weird argument cuz yeah man who cares if it "hogs' the Tera if you win the game lol. Roaring Moon was a tera hog, and Nite has everything it has besides needing two dances to out speed stuff, but with multiscale it's actually bulkier. If we really want to try and tweak the game to be the best it can be, I personally would look into this mon and at least see how the community feels via a suspect. Or not, either way is fine just sharing some thoughts.
Gliscor: 2/5
I can easily see how many teams struggle with this mon. Access to spikes and knock with that insane recovery and defensive typing is wild. You really need some strong firepower on your team, or smart plays + utility like Encore, Taunt, Trick, idk. But, it's not harder to counter than say, Zama, or Gambit, or Nite. I'm open to changing my mind on this one; my teams just happen to use it as set-up fodder so I could be a bit biased.
Kyurem: 2/5
*Coughs
So, Kyurem lol... looks like everything happens for a reason. Really, it has a hard time fitting on a lot of teams, you almost have to build around Kyu vs it being a solid, splashable mon for your team. It forsure has great matchups, and bulk, and after a dance or two you're kinda cooked. That said, every set has a counter, it's hard to get in safely, and it's prepared for. Like Gliscor, it can take 2 or even 3 mons and a Tera to handle it, but that can be said about many, many mons this gen. If you find yourself having some free turns to Dance or Sub, there are better mons that could do more with that free turn than Kyu.
Ogerpon-Wellspring: 3/5
Incredibly solid, well-designed mon. I think this Oger-W is BO's best friend. It give so much in one slot, but does suffer from 4MSS a bit. The meta needs an Encore mon not named Val or Nite, so I think the positives about this mon outweigh any negatives. Again, it can be a mon that takes some resources to handle, but it keeps so many annoying things in check I think we should learn to live with it. If it could have boots and freely Tera, then yeah, easily a 4 or even a 5 vote, but as it stands, mon is mostly fine.
Tera Blast: 0/5
Alright, y'all gonna piss me off with this one lol. I didn't spend a year+ of my life begging y'all to realize Tera is lowkey stupid af and unhealthy for you to half realize that this late in the game. TB and Tera are inexorably tied. This is Tera, wtf are we even talking about? I consider this a complex ban, and a really weird one at that. This would literally mess everything up and set tiering and balancing back to square one. We would have to re-test mons for months, maybe even a year full of testing. It's a logistical nightmare. The community, however short-sighted, wanted this gimmick around. The gimmick comes with TB. What's the confusion? Should we test D-Max without Max Moves? Should we make Z-moves not go through Protect? The gimmick is the gimmick. There are great arguments why TB is fine, so I won't repeat them as they are posted on this very forum, but just want to express how frustrating it is for ppl to be crying about something me and many others warned you about since SV first launched.
GF got rid of Hidden Power because giving mons coverage they literally weren't designed to have is pretty broken, but then said w/e, we make games to sell toys and the kids will think this is cool. So they bumped up HP base power and turned it into a STAB lol. Then most ppl said, "awesome, let's vote to keep that, really good idea, ty GF!" and here we are. GG.
 
LoseToRU? said:
Tera Blast: 0/5
Alright, y'all gonna piss me off with this one lol. I didn't spend a year+ of my life begging y'all to realize Tera is lowkey stupid af and unhealthy for you to half realize that this late in the game. TB and Tera are inexorably tied. This is Tera, wtf are we even talking about? I consider this a complex ban, and a really weird one at that. This would literally mess everything up and set tiering and balancing back to square one. We would have to re-test mons for months, maybe even a year full of testing. It's a logistical nightmare. The community, however short-sighted, wanted this gimmick around. The gimmick comes with TB. What's the confusion? Should we test D-Max without Max Moves? Should we make Z-moves not go through Protect? The gimmick is the gimmick. There are great arguments why TB is fine, so I won't repeat them as they are posted on this very forum, but just want to express how frustrating it is for ppl to be crying about something me and many others warned you about since SV first launched.
GF got rid of Hidden Power because giving mons coverage they literally weren't designed to have is pretty broken, but then said w/e, we make games to sell toys and the kids will think this is cool. So they bumped up HP base power and turned it into a STAB lol. Then most ppl said, "awesome, let's vote to keep that, really good idea, ty GF!" and here we are. GG.
Click to expand...
Pls don’t spite vote. Though I do agree that Dragonite should probably be suspected over Tera Blast. Tera + Tera Blast is just incompatible with Bulky DD sweepers. This has been proven time, and time again yet we’re still acting like that’s not the case. The fact that Dragonite can just run shit like Tera Ghost + Blast, and it WORKS should be ringing alarm bells for everyone. Sigh, unfortunately it’s the case with SV that people don’t like getting rid of their toys if they can personally tolerate its existence. Same reason we still have Zama, Gambit, and Fucking Kyurem in the tier. It’s also a large driving factor for TB ban as it’s just expected to drop like 5 mons alongside the ban.

I do think Tera Blast is just stupid, broken cheese that hold very little competitive merit though. So I don’t mind it seeing it go. Especially since people would rather suffer than get rid of Dragonite/Kyurem.
 
June Heat said:
Pls don’t spite vote. Though I do agree that Dragonite should probably be suspected over Tera Blast. Tera + Tera Blast is just incompatible with Bulky DD sweepers. This has been proven time, and time again yet we’re still acting like that’s not the case. The fact that Dragonite can just run shit like Tera Ghost + Blast, and it WORKS should be ringing alarm bells for everyone. Sigh, unfortunately it’s the case with SV that people don’t like getting rid of their toys if they can personally tolerate its existence. Same reason we still have Zama, Gambit, and Fucking Kyurem in the tier. It’s also a large driving factor for TB ban as it’s just expected to drop like 5 mons alongside the ban.

I do think Tera Blast is just stupid, broken cheese that hold very little competitive merit though. So I don’t mind it seeing it go. Especially since people would rather suffer than get rid of Dragonite/Kyurem.
Click to expand...
Far from a spite vote, it's just pointless to even bring up a TB ban. Again, with a lot of patience here, we said this 2 years ago. We said we would lose many, many mons to keep Tera. Yes, sweepers + TB is goofy- I'm not acting like it's not the case, but it was very obvious that if we keep Tera then we will lose those sweepers.
We called that when one mon gets banned, another will take its place then get banned next. Here we are.
Take this sentence, "I do think Tera Blast is just stupid, broken cheese that hold very little competitive merit though" and just lose the 'Blast' part. Tera Blast is Tera. Tera is Tera Blast. Why would we get rid of it now, after years of testing and banning mons where Tera, and by direct extension, Tera Blast, pushed them out of the tier? It's too late, far too late.
If we ban TB, you realize that technically we have to discover if the banned mons are okay now without it. No one wants to open that can of worms. SV is finally in a good spot. It's not worth it, and it's not popular.
I'll direct you to the posts from other players about TB where it highlights the opportunity cost, and how few mons actually use the move, but I can confidently say it will never get banned. We will just continue to lose mons, as per what the community voted for and will continue to vote for if for some insane reason TB is put to a suspect. I don't mean to end this with a thought-terminating cliché, but it is what it is.
 
LoseToRU? said:
Far from a spite vote, it's just pointless to even bring up a TB ban. Again, with a lot of patience here, we said this 2 years ago. We said we would lose many, many mons to keep Tera. Yes, sweepers + TB is goofy- I'm not acting like it's not the case, but it was very obvious that if we keep Tera then we will lose those sweepers.
We called that when one mon gets banned, another will take its place then get banned next. Here we are.
Take this sentence, "I do think Tera Blast is just stupid, broken cheese that hold very little competitive merit though" and just lose the 'Blast' part. Tera Blast is Tera. Tera is Tera Blast. Why would we get rid of it now, after years of testing and banning mons where Tera, and by direct extension, Tera Blast, pushed them out of the tier? It's too late, far too late.
If we ban TB, you realize that technically we have to discover if the banned mons are okay now without it. No one wants to open that can of worms. SV is finally in a good spot. It's not worth it, and it's not popular.
I'll direct you to the posts from other players about TB where it highlights the opportunity cost, and how few mons actually use the move, but I can confidently say it will never get banned. We will just continue to lose mons, as per what the community voted for and will continue to vote for if for some insane reason TB is put to a suspect. I don't mean to end this with a thought-terminating cliché, but it is what it is.
Click to expand...
Tera Blast is a part of Tera, but not the mechanic as a whole. I really don’t see why we couldn’t judge them separately. Also opportunity cost matters very little when the answer is almost always “yes, it is worth it.” Yes I’m aware of the original arguments. I was around during original Tera suspect. Though those past decision shouldn’t mean we can’t move forward. If an element of Tera is breaking mons than it should be looked at regardless of the past.

I do think the prospect of having to resuspect like 5 mons is… bad. I would hope the community could agree that Espathra, Gouging Fire, and Roaring Moon should remain Uber, but that’s more likely a dream than reality. Volcarona could at least add value to the tier, and Regeleki is not a Pokemon in OU without TB.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top