Other Tiers [Gen 9] Modern Gen 1

[Copen]

MG1 Underused is banning Thundurus-Incarnate and Infernape!

I don't think anyone who has played this tier is suprised about Thundurus being banned. It's insanely good dual stab combined with coverage in Grass Knot to deal with would be walls like Hippowdon and Rhyperior and the always powerful U-Turn make it insanely hard to deal with defensively in any capacity. Combined with this, it's good 111 speed tier gets the jump on the crowded 100-110 range consisting of Latias, Durant, Blacephalon, Lando-I and previously Infernape. It's main checks compose of opposing electrics such as Jolteon and Raikou, which tend to be not good, or Lycanroc, which does not switch in directly. To top it off, it's bulk isn't horrible and it's typing provides some defensive utility, being able to switch into Durant and Celesteela that aren't clicking Stone Edge. It's insane offensive presence combined with it's good speed tier and while maintaining a not easily abusable typing or defensive stat spread makes it far too much for the tier to handle.

Infernape is much in the same boat as Thundurus, but in exchange for being just outright unwallable it instead has to do minor predicts with U-Turn to break would be walls such as Latias and (kind of) Slowbro. Of course, unlike Thundurus, it has a 166 BP STAB move in Blaze Kick which leaves nothing to desire in turns of raw power. Infernape also possesses the insanely hard to switch into combo of Close Combat + Stone Edge, combined with U-Turn to prevent Latias and Slowbro from being safe switchins. Slowbro is particular is quite a bad check, as no matter what Infernape clicks it gets a total of 50% damage or more with crits even on a wrong predict by just safely U-Turning out after. Latias is can be easily abused by clicking U-Turn or by Infernapes teammates such as Blacephalon exploding on it.

In other news, Dragon Heaven now has an updated teambuilder and has been bugfixed so MG1 is completely playable bug free (I hope) with teambuilder support! MG1 Randbats is also playable there, and it has recieved a small update itself with some bugfixes, level changes and moveset changes. I expect to be making another tiering action post soon for another MG1 tier and with that the next MG1 Seasonal signups will likely be posted so stay tuned!

 

[Leeto64]

I'm fascinated about MG1 lower tiers (mainly by the post above & good experience playing MG1Ubers), is it played exclusively under Dragon Heaven tho? Sorry if a bit of a goof question, i ask more simpy because i remember being able to play it just fine in vanilla Showdown and Dragon Heaven doesn't seem to change too much other than make the builder more convenient but in return probably not saving replays

 

[juoean]

I'm fascinated about MG1 lower tiers (mainly by the post above & good experience playing MG1Ubers), is it played exclusively under Dragon Heaven tho? Sorry if a bit of a goof question, i ask more simpy because i remember being able to play it just fine in vanilla Showdown and Dragon Heaven doesn't seem to change too much other than make the builder more convenient but in return probably not saving replays

in the past mg1 was not playable on DH at all, as there were numerous bugs, it could only be played on the main showdown server under gen1customgame. copen is announcing that it is now playable on DH as well but yes you can still play it in gen1custom on pokemonshowdown dot com

 

[Copen]

Modern Gen 1 Overused is banning Electrode-Hisui and Deoxys-Defense!

Electrode-Hisui has been a mon on everyones radar ever since Giratina got banned; with its insane nearly uncontested speed tier and ludicrous STAB combo it's offensive power is nearly unmatched. 150 speed outspeeds the entire metagame barring niche pick Ninjask and no volt immune likes taking the 150 BP STAB Chloroblast. Electrode-Hisui's complete domination of every ground type in the game ensure it can Volt Switch safely on mons that can take its dual STAB like Latios, Goodra-Hisui, and Kyurem to get meaningful chip damage with its high crit rate and force them out with a teammate such as Iron Treads or Tapu Koko. HTrode pairs very well with its fellow speedy electric types Zeraora and Tapu Koko who both can make up for HTrodes complete lack of coverage while abusing the grounds that Zeraora and Tapu Koko would normally struggle with. It's simply entirely impossible to cover all 3 electrics in one slot which leads to having to use exploitable and predictable cores to handle the threat of multiple of them on a team. HTrode also has a bit of defensive utility which ensures it isnt complete deadweight vs anything faster and can take a hit or two in certain situations where you want to preserve health on more important mons.

DLC2 has blessed Deoxys-Defense with Stored Power, completing its set of Amnesia/Agility/Stored Power/Recover which was sorely lacking damage with just Psychic. The near complete lack of ghost types in the tier combined with the fact Deo-D walls every steel means your counterplay to it will either be 1) Para/crit luck or 2) run a niche dark type (or Golisopod). Unfortunately for everyone who likes having counterplay, Deo-D can swap out Amnesia with Cosmic Power to wall every relevant dark type and the sets insane amount of PP ensure you will have to make risky plays to conserve PP that can be caught with Stored Power. While this set lacks immediate power, it can be insanely threatening vs teams that rely on darks to beat Deo-D as it turns otherwise solid checks into setup fodder. This mon is not healthy in any way and simply serves as a cheesy insta win that constricts teambuilding.

Tour signups on the 28th :)

 

[FishyRoads]

So, what is the sleep talk implementation? i can see that sucker punch is 80 bp so i'm assuming earliest implementation where it calls rest

 

[R8]

So, what is the sleep talk implementation? i can see that sucker punch is 80 bp so i'm assuming earliest implementation where it calls rest

I didn't play in a while but iirc sleep talk just doesn't work. There are a few moves that have quite random mechanics and it's one of them, there is a doc in the first post going over all of them

edit: there is a list of moves that have no effects actually:
Conversion 2, Electric Terrain, Electrify, Encore, Flower Shield, Grassy Terrain, Hail, Healing Wish, Heart Swap, Ion Deluge, Laser Focus, Lucky Chant (Sets a field effect that does nothing), Lunar Dance, Misty Terrain, Perish Song, Psych Up, Psychic Terrain, Rain Dance, Revival Blessing, Sandstorm, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Speed Swap, Sunny Day, Wish, Wonder Room (Sets a field effect that does nothing)

 

[FishyRoads]

I didn't play in a while but iirc sleep talk just doesn't work. There are a few moves that have quite random mechanics and it's one of them, there is a doc in the first post going over all of them

edit: there is a list of moves that have no effects actually:
Conversion 2, Electric Terrain, Electrify, Encore, Flower Shield, Grassy Terrain, Hail, Healing Wish, Heart Swap, Ion Deluge, Laser Focus, Lucky Chant (Sets a field effect that does nothing), Lunar Dance, Misty Terrain, Perish Song, Psych Up, Psychic Terrain, Rain Dance, Revival Blessing, Sandstorm, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Speed Swap, Sunny Day, Wish, Wonder Room (Sets a field effect that does nothing)

Ok, thanks!

 

[Volk]

I have no idea how this metagame has existed for like three years and no one has bothered to make a type matchup chart for it. Guess that means I have to make it. You're welcome.

Copen, please check my work.

MG1 Type Chart

Q: How do the new types work?
Dark, Steel and Fairy all function properly defensively, but Fire does not resist Steel and Fairy, Poison does not resist Fairy and Dark is not super effective against Ghost or Psychic. Fairy moves are physical.

This always annoyed me because it's technically ambiguous. All this tells me, for example, is that Poison-type Pokemon don't resist Fairy-type attacks. But it doesn't tell me what kind of damage Fairy-type moves will actually do to Poison-type Pokemon. Neutral damage? Super effective damage? No damage? Could be any.

 

[Copen]

I have no idea how this metagame has existed for like three years and no one has bothered to make a type matchup chart for it. Guess that means I have to make it. You're welcome.

Copen, please check my work.

Can't believe I never thought to do this lmao looks great to me. Adding to resources for sure

This always annoyed me because it's technically ambiguous. All this tells me, for example, is that Poison-type Pokemon don't resist Fairy-type attacks. But it doesn't tell me what kind of damage Fairy-type moves will actually do to Poison-type Pokemon. Neutral damage? Super effective damage? No damage? Could be any.

Agree af clarified it now.

 

[Copen]

NEW VR. Also two more things coming within the next few days hopefully.
-Ruling regarding tours (mainly to prevent mid tour mechanics changings messing things up)
-Cleaning up the mechanics doc, as I have been constantly adding things and most things in there are not competitively relevant at this point.

Viability Rankings Update
This is literally just my own opinions and I expect them to change post tour a bit but anything is gonna be better than the nearly year old VR with 3 banned mons on it.

A Ranks
A+
A+ -> A+ Iron Treads
This mon does a little bit of everything and it's weaknesses are hard to exploit so it's not really shocking that it's placement doesn't change at all.
A- -> A+ Zeraora
Zeraora lives a hit from everything bar Ursaluna and has near unstoppable offensive coverage + the second highest speed stat of any relevant mon.

A
A -> A Latios
Yep it's still Latios. I like the invention of mono STAB because they both kind of do the same thing with minor differences and you get to fit another valuable move like Psycho Shift or Roost.
A -> A Tapu Koko
I do not remember this mon being ranked this high lol. Regardless I think people have gotten alot better about abusing Iron Treads with things like Starmie or Kartana along with more niche options like Lead Melmetal to trade dmg with it alot with options of Koko itself like Grass Knot to finish it so this mon is def one of the best.

A-
A- -> A- Corviknight
The day Corv ever drops below A rank is the day I start spamming it to prove it belongs in A rank lmao. The sky high power of pivoting moves in this tier makes momentum so invaluable that a mon that can check most things once and U-Turn out to put you in a better spot is great.
A- -> A- Goodra-Hisui
Pre Genesect ban I'd have easily put this mon #1 with the only competition being Genesect iself but post ban I find it harder to get insane amounts of value out of this mon. Regardless the worse this is gonna do is trade and it still has 0 switchins.
A- -> A- Kyurem
Can I see some lead Kyurem in the tour please its like one of the best leads. Also this tier has like 1.5 ice resists and it has crazy bulk.
A- -> A- Scream Tail
I do think Ice Beam Scream Tail has alot more merit with the rise of Zygrade/Chomper/Ting-Lu but otherwise this mon is doing the exact same stuff shocking.

B Ranks

B+
UR -> B+ Cresselia
This is my super hot take of the post (there's like 3 more below this btw). Psycho Shift is the only way to directly punish someone for clicking Thunder Wave and it's one of two real mons that get it (the other being Latios). 120/120/130 is so insanely nutty combined with recovery and effectively no weaknesses because U-Turns do sub 25%.
248 Atk Corviknight U-turn vs. 248 HP / 248 Def Cresselia: 88-104 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
On top of this while it does not make FAST progress few teams are gonna want to switchin repeatedly into Psycho Cut and Ice Beam/HP Fire. Even in the case where you are vs the only Empoleon user Ice Beam always has the 10% OHKO.
B+ -> B+ Gastrodon
A strong sweeper with 1 weakness that rarely matters unless you build specifically to counter this slug. Latios rarely running Roost is great for Ice Beam/Blizzard sets as you can chip it on the switch and later KO at +2 and Body Slam sets are as good as ever especially with Latios also dropping Psycho Shift in favor of more offensive sets.
B+ -> B+ Kartana
By far the best Iron Treads switchin in the tier and it can apply some crazy offensive pressure with Zeraora removed (on in longer games if you Steel Beam it x3). 4th slot has alot of variety between Swords Dance/Vacuum Wave/Leaf Blade but they're all kind of bad worthless moves.
B- -> B+ Ninjask
Fast Final Gambit is probably the most broken move right next to Amnesia + Speed boosting. If you lead this and click Final Gambit you are at worst going to leave a mon at roughly 20% (and your opponent will probably sack that to pivoting so its just a 5v5 atp). On top of this it is the absolutely fastest mon in the tier and it also has the strongest U-Turn allowing it to harass things like Ting-Lu/Cress/Latios and also get chip on things like Zeraora to put them in range of setup sweepers.
B- -> B+ Starmie
Crazy good para spreader with a good speed tier and can switch in on things like Iron Treads or Kartana.
B -> B+ Zygarde-50%
This mon demands massive amounts of respect with its Pain Split Dragon Dance set. While +1 Thousand Arrows is still pretty weak most teams do have several ground weaks and it's ability to setup on a wide array of mons like Zeraora/Iron Treads/Corviknight or even things like Tapu Koko or dragons which have dropped their SpAtk means it's pretty much impossible to stop it from setting up.

B
B+ -> B Archeops
C -> B Lycanroc
UR -> B Minior
Archeops has a bonkers strong Stone Edge capable of deleting any rock neutral with minor chip and has ground/fire coverage to hit resists alongside U-Turn. It does however have to pick between it's coverage, has next to no defensive utility, has a middling speed tier, and Stone Edge is not exactly a consistent move. Lycanroc has a better speed tier getting the jump on Latios and Scream Tail and it brings a much more powerful ground move in Drill Run and priority in Accelrock. The dawg however cannot U-Turn and has a much worse matchup against grounds. Minior is Archeops if it had a great speed tier instead of not having that but has less power.
B -> B Chansey
Still a powerful offensive threat with Fire/Ice coverage and pretty of utility with its monstrous special bulk and good support options.
C -> B Infernape
UR -> B Greninja
These two are here for roughly the same reasons and that is because they both bully Iron Treads. Infernape outright OHKOs any non Hoodra steel but has to predict the Latios/Starmie switch while Greninja does not pick up the Treads OHKO but has lacking switchins even if you know its just gonna click Hydro Pump.
C -> B Louis
A great lead and a great check in the back to pretty much anything because this mon is quite literally impossible to OHKO.
248 SpA Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 248 SpD Ting-Lu: 398-470 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ruination is also a nutty move and forces progress in any position and if you lower Louis' speed you can underspeed Corviknight to Earthquake it on a U-Turn or Roost.
B+ -> B Ursaluna
I didn't include this guy oops. It feels too slow and doesn't do a crazy job at breaking so I don't really use it but sometimes it puts in work when I'm against it so I still respect it.
B- -> B Yveltal
Both Hone Claws and pivot sets are still viable and in fact have gotten better with Electrode-Hisui banned.

B-
B -> B- Celebi
Good check to Zygarde and Gastrodon and it has good utility in either Thunder Wave or Heal Bell but versus more offensive Voltturn teams this mon becomes more of a liability.
C -> B- Cyclizar
Dragon/Fire coverage is great and while it does have to rely on Overheat Shed Tail's existence applies pressure just by existing especially with a powerful ground setup sweeper like Zygarde in the tier.
B- -> B- Dudunsparce
Normal/Fire or Normal/Ground are both solid coverage and it has a good statline. It is however very slow and doesnt have any great matchups because of this and the additional fact of it not having any resistances means there's not a lot of reason to use this mon.
B- -> B- Empoleon
Great check to Scream Tail, Latios and Starmie along with no Earthquake Archeops. It does however have pretty exploitable weaknesses and it doesn't force much progress itself.
B+ -> B- Garchomp
Generally too slow and doesn't have a lot of defensive utility. People prepping for Iron Treads by bringing Starmie and for Zygarde by bringing Ice moves both generally hurt Chomper. It still has a niche on more offensive teams as it can check things like Zeraora or Hoodra.
B- -> B- Great Tusk
This mon is very scary offensively and has alright defensive utility but I cannot personally put it higher because I have never seen it do anything ever.
B -> B- Golisopod
While Golisopod is capable of cleaning games with Swords Dance + First Impression it struggles to get past basically any bug resist on it's own due to it's mediocre type and piss poor speed. Tons of top tier mons like Hoodra, Corviknight, Tapu Koko, or Iron Treads shrug off First Impression and do tons of damage back.
C -> B- Melmetal
A solid lead which has a good matchup into both Iron Treads and Kyurem. While it's a good lead there's about 7 other good leads and this mon doesn't do alot in the back compared to other steels.
C -> B- Noivern
Similar to Cyclizar with a better SpAtk stat and a powerful midground in Super Fang in exchange for not having Shed Tail.
C -> B- Primarina
Primarina is an alright check to basically any mon and can trade decently well but it's never going to go super crazy. The rise of things like Infernape and Greninja bring this out of C tier.
B- -> B- Roaring Moon
This is just wacky Minior which is better defensively but worse offensively.
B- -> B- Volcarona
Volcarona actually seems terrifying and it doesn't have alot of solid checks but I haven't seen it so I'm just gonna not move it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------UU Cutoff----------------------------------------------------------------------------

C Rank

C
B -> C Azelf
About half the tier resists Psychic so it can be hard to click a move that does actual damage instead of just U-Turning. Generally Latios or Starmie do mostly the same thing with much more defensive utility.
C -> C Blissey
This is just Chansey but it's on hard stall.
C -> C Chien-Pao
There's so little to say about some of these C rank this guy just clicks Blizzard with a crazy speed tier.
C -> C Cobalion
Magnet Rise is such a cool option someone please load it.
UR -> C Florges
Moonblast/HP Fire is completely perfect neutral coverage and despite it's bad attack stat it's still hard to switch into. It also has Copycat to either copy a U-Turn/Flip Turn or a Thunder Wave and it has great natural special bulk being able to wall things like Latios or Starmie.
B- -> C Gliscor
This mon's only good matchup is vs Tapu Koko and there is little reason to use Gliscor outside of hard stall which is not a good enough archetype is put this mon any higher than C.
C -> C Jolteon
This mons sole niche is access to Heal Bell and while I'd almost always use Chansey instead I can acknowledge that Chansey is not base 130 speed and lacks access to Volt Switch. Copycat sets are also cool too.
B- -> C Kommo-o
Dragon Dance Endure Reversal sets are terrifying but more knowledgable players will know to play around that especially because that is by far it's best set.
C -> C Landorus-Incarnate
Juoean is so happy rn. It's a ground that outspeeds Kyurem with a different set of weaknesses than Treads and has U-Turn over Volt Switch.
C -> C Maushold
This mon CHUNKS any non normal resist and Population Bomb is pretty good mono coverage along with access to Super Fang, U-Turn, and Thunder Wave. It however lacks any defensive utility at all while not having the same insane strength of mons like Archeops.
UR -> C Ogerpon
Strong grass STAB + Superpower means it's moderately hard to switchin and it has rare defensive utility with it's mostly unseen Grass type.
C -> C Pecharunt
While Destiny Bond is one of the most insanely bonkers moves ever this mon brings very little to the table besides this. It quite literally cannot hit steels even neutrally and setup sweepers can avoid poison damage by getting kills so despite having an insta kill move you cannot bypass in any way other than pp stalling it's extreme passivity remains.
B- -> C Raging Bolt
Raging Bolt was like if Tapu Koko was slow. It's bulky but it's type isnt very good defensively and it's also not great offensively thudding into Koko and Treads.
B -> C Sandaconda
Sandaconda competes heavily with Ting-Lu but it's higher speed which creeps Hoodra and Glare gives it enough of a niche to pretend like it's viable.
C -> C Slither Wing
First Impression is a crazy move but not sure if this has much merit over Golisopod. Regardless I would not think you were throwing if you brought this mon so I'll keep it in C rank.

Newly Unranked

UR
C -> UR Blacephalon
Infernape without U-Turn. Also has generally worse matchups into things like rocks, Yveltal, Hoodra, and anything you want U-Turn for.
C -> UR Durant
Use Slither Wing (or a better mon).
C -> UR Gholdengo
Gholdengo serves a similar purpose to Cresselia except it has weaknesses and its best offensive move is Night Shade and its also less bulky.
C -> UR Hydrapple
Great Electrode-Hisui counter! Unfortunately Electrode-Hisui is banned.
B- -> UR Landorus-Therian
Use Landorus-Incarnate.
C -> UR Latias
Who was on drugs when this was put in C rank it is not only inferior to Latios stat wise but it also lacks Flip Turn.
C -> UR Metagross
You'd have to ask juoean why this was ranked (I'm sure they gave a very convincing reason last year tho).
C -> UR Regice
Kyurem generally does everything this mon does with added defensive utility.
B -> UR Victini
I struggle to think of a single reason to use this over Infernape. While it is a Scream Tail check it is also slower than Iron Treads, worse versus Hoodra and Kyurem, and walled by Gastrodon and rocks.