Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1002))

[UltraSword]

S -> A+

A -> S

This post has been a long time coming. Zamazenta has been supremely overrated for months at this point, that is something that has been on my mind a while. I however, did not share my opinion until fusien, a player I highly respect and someone who won OST, went to bat for zamazenta as the best pokemon in Overused after I had made the declaration that corviknight was the best pokemon in Overused.

SPL had recently ended and I checked the stats to see if my biases and opinions were purely personal, after all if a good player such as fusien believes it I should take it seriously. I cannot express how shocked I was when I saw the stats. Confirming my opinions more than I had ever dared to imagine. Corviknigtht posted the very best winrate on the list of OU pokemon. Boasting an insane 68% winrate w/o mirror. Meanwhile, Zamazenta is THE WORST in the top 10 most used pokemon.

SPL is supposed to be the most prestigious tour where the best players meet. Yet, all of the tour players just pretended to not notice Zamazenta sucked in the tour? And we are supposed to pretend this pokemon is the best??? What are we the WNBA? Zamazenta is the Angel Reese of pokemon.

I made a video analyzing the SPL winrates of pokemon and went further in depth on Zamazenta and Corviknight's respective performances.

However, my argument goes far beyond just SPL winrates.

Zamazenta simply does not pass the eye or feel test at all as "the best pokemon in OU". Zamazenta is a pokemon with a great many sets that can threaten teams with a bit of variance in answers which makes it versatile. However, Zamazenta is completely blanked in far too many matchups to be seriously considered an S tier pokemon. Pecharunt is a solid pokemon and completely shuts down every single zamazenta set. Corviknight (the best pokemon in Ou rn) shuts down zamazenta's sets bar roar. Idef corv beats idef zenta thanks to helmet unless zenta can crit and 4 attacks is not strong enough. 4 attacks boots zamazenta has to make tough decisions with its coverage options. A variety of landorus, gliscor, moltres, zapdos, gholdengo, clefable, and primarina shut zamazenta down depending on the set. Zamazenta really relies on your opponent to be not great and bring a team with no answer to iron defense zamazenta to truly shine. Those people are growing smaller in number by the day as we have adapted to zamazenta being allowed. I will give zama can pull a game out of its ass with a tera that can beat the opponent, but Dragonite does the whole matchup fishing far more adeptly than the dog.

Obviously every pokemon has a tough matchup or two or they would be banned to ubers. Yet in so many games Zamazenta is just useless. In what game ever played has Corviknight been a useless pokemon? Always does something important in every single matchup. Great Tusk and Kingambit are other worthy contenders for S rank in my mind. Are those pokemon ever blanked on matchup? Could not remember a time I was happy to see a kingambit on the opponent's team, because I had a perfect 100% counter. Great Tusk's utility is important and has to be acknowledged no matter the circumstance, even if it is objectively blanked offensively, its knocks, spins, and hazards have to be contended with.


As for Corviknight, simply the best pokemon in Overused. Corviknight is the absolute hard carry of balance and stall. The premier way to handle meta strong offensive threats such as kingambit, weavile, zamazenta, valiant, and a fair few dragonite sets. What Corviknight does for balance is irreplacable. Who else can take on weavile and kingambit over the course of a long game? Weavile and kingambit are two mons with a complete dearth of long term answers. Brave bird idef press corviknight is perhaps the only pokemon that can trade favorably into them, even if they tera. Corviknight shuts down gliscor, particularly sd gliscor which can be a massive problem for defensive teams, well if the bird knight weren't there.

Corviknight also finds a welcome spot on many offensive teams as a good pivoter. I will not say Corviknight carries bulky offenses it is on, but it is a great role player, uturning on otherwise massive threats so you can bring in your own. Corviknight can hold long enough for your breakers to punch through.

The stats back up Corv the eye test backs up Corv and it sits at A? It is a complete travesty, especially sitting in the same tier as moltres and zapdos, pokemon Corv easily outclasses. Zapdos and moltres do what corv does 100% of the time 30% of the time

Zama is just about never useless in any game, and insinuating as such just gives the impression there's a bias in your post that you're not admitting, no offense. Beyond just being a potent wincon, it also is a superglue among the tier that soft checks so many threats in one slot which greatly opens up teambuilding. While it's primarily known for being a physical stop, Zamazenta also is able to pivot into threats like special Kyurem in a pinch and force it out, giving its team crucial wiggle room. It's also the best offensive Darkrai check around, and is a great no nonsense stop to various physical boosters in general (especially with Roar, which is a strong set as ever). We've seen all manner of sets come up throughout the generation from various IDBP variants to boots AoA, LO attackers (which offer shocking levels of damage btw and can be difficult to pivot around). Again, it checking so much in one slot eases building which is crucial in a tier notorious for having a laundry list of threats to account for.

I also take issue with the tone of your post which implies that top players are "ignoring how Zama sucked in SPL" which isn't even true, nor would good players ignore it if it were so. Top players aren't too afraid to say when something has a rough spot or just isn't good. This post has somewhat of a matter-of-fact tone that pushes your opinion as fact when it's just opinion. You're plenty entitled to it obviously, but there are better ways to get it across it.

As for Corv, it's pretty difficult to argue it's #1. While it has a number of positives and is doing better than it was in past months, it still faces issues with passivity and being forced into some play loops that are exploitable (taking big enough hits to force recovery which allow in dangerous threats). It also can't really do anything vs the many threats that tech Tera Ghost to handle Zamazenta, who at least can crunch its way past them potentially but Corv has to rely on PP stalling which isn't a guaranteed to function safety net. It also hurts that it's a flyer neutral to fighting in a tier dominated by them, so it has to be more careful with its health so as to not be in range of 2HKOs with SR up.

Corv also doesn't easily outclass either Moltres or Zapdos. While it has match ups it is better into than they can be, likewise they have match ups they're better into than Corv is. While it is SR neutral, it lacks an innate method to punish contact moves it switches into without Rocky Helmet, which is prone to being knocked off, meanwhile Zapdos and Moltres pack deterrents to contact moves with the potential to leave crippling status on them. One is not inherently superior to the other, and simply has to be considered what benefits each bird brings that is better for one's team.

So I think Zama and Corv are fine where they are.

I think there is a lot to offer from both posts so I might as well throw in my 2 cents. I do not believe either Corviknight or Zamazenta are S but I do think Zama could be S- and Corviknight can be A+. Both pokemon have plenty of strengths and weaknesses but the thing that I think puts Zamazenta over the edge in viability is the high amount of set variety. Whereas Zama has plenty of variations of both body press and aoa sets, the most Corviknight usually does is choose between its own body press set (which is far less effective than Zama's imo) or using brave bird and u turn. Also, while both pokemon struggle against Gholdengo (who I personally view as a bit overrated but I will not discuss that now) Zama at least has super effective coverage in crunch whereas Corviknight doesn't even have neutral coverage for it. Both pokemon are good but neither are S in my opinion and Zama is slightly more viable.

 

[JackRG]

Zama is just about never useless in any game, and insinuating as such just gives the impression there's a bias in your post that you're not admitting, no offense. Beyond just being a potent wincon, it also is a superglue among the tier that soft checks so many threats in one slot which greatly opens up teambuilding. While it's primarily known for being a physical stop, Zamazenta also is able to pivot into threats like special Kyurem in a pinch and force it out, giving its team crucial wiggle room. It's also the best offensive Darkrai check around, and is a great no nonsense stop to various physical boosters in general (especially with Roar, which is a strong set as ever). We've seen all manner of sets come up throughout the generation from various IDBP variants to boots AoA, LO attackers (which offer shocking levels of damage btw and can be difficult to pivot around). Again, it checking so much in one slot eases building which is crucial in a tier notorious for having a laundry list of threats to account for.

I also take issue with the tone of your post which implies that top players are "ignoring how Zama sucked in SPL" which isn't even true, nor would good players ignore it if it were so. Top players aren't too afraid to say when something has a rough spot or just isn't good. This post has somewhat of a matter-of-fact tone that pushes your opinion as fact when it's just opinion. You're plenty entitled to it obviously, but there are better ways to get it across it.

As for Corv, it's pretty difficult to argue it's #1. While it has a number of positives and is doing better than it was in past months, it still faces issues with passivity and being forced into some play loops that are exploitable (taking big enough hits to force recovery which allow in dangerous threats). It also can't really do anything vs the many threats that tech Tera Ghost to handle Zamazenta, who at least can crunch its way past them potentially but Corv has to rely on PP stalling which isn't a guaranteed to function safety net. It also hurts that it's a flyer neutral to fighting in a tier dominated by them, so it has to be more careful with its health so as to not be in range of 2HKOs with SR up.

Corv also doesn't easily outclass either Moltres or Zapdos. While it has match ups it is better into than they can be, likewise they have match ups they're better into than Corv is. While it is SR neutral, it lacks an innate method to punish contact moves it switches into without Rocky Helmet, which is prone to being knocked off, meanwhile Zapdos and Moltres pack deterrents to contact moves with the potential to leave crippling status on them. One is not inherently superior to the other, and simply has to be considered what benefits each bird brings that is better for one's team.

So I think Zama and Corv are fine where they are.

Honestly, I don't know why you think his post is "biased". Seems like a well thought out analysis from a player who is very knowledgeable on the metagame. However, to expand on his post, the biggest problem with zama for me has always been it's lack of any real progress making moves. No removal, no knockoff, no status, etc. This means the presence of pokemon such as pech, dondozo, clef, physdef gking, gweezing, moltres, zapdos, etc. means that zama will have a really hard time getting anything done. Compare this to something like standard tusk (ice spinner, headlong, spin, knock/rocks), which may be walled by something like Corviknight, but it will still make progress by removing hazards or knocking something off. I don't really take spl win rates too seriously, but a pretty awful winrate in such a large sample size shows that this mon definetly isn't S rank material. Even its best MU aganist offensive teams, run tera ghost on 1 or 2 things to potentially turn it into a liability. For corviknight, I don't feel the need to add anything onto what volcanionisgood said, hit the nail on the head, although I don't think corv is the best mon in the tier. I'd say Zama is A+ and Corv is S-

 

[Heatranator]

45% winrate for zamazenta ain't awful, thats not a bad winrate at all. A bad winrate would be something like bolt at 37%. Saying that zamazenta's winrate in SPL is awful is just exaggeration, it did pretty well.

Corv is not S tier, or even really S- tier because it only fits on Balance, Stall, and maybe BO, with even those teams only recently popping up. Zamazenta on the other hand, really only doesn't fit on Stall (and even then I bet if somebody was willing to, they could make it work). It fits on HO, offense, BO and Balance very easily due to its defensive profile and offensive profile. Corviknight also as stated by Moyashi, struggles with passivity at times.

Honestly, I don't know why you think his post is "biased". Seems like a well thought out analysis from a player who is very knowledgeable on the metagame.

The post is biased since it just ignores some things entirely. Corviknight does not beat every zamazenta set, in fact, it can kinda struggle with quite a few sets. AOA zamzenta wears down corviknight extremely quickly, forcing it to use multiple roosts. Banded or life orb just straight up beat corviknight with the tiniest amount of chip. Iron defense variants even threaten corviknight quite a lot, with after 1 iron defense it doing 50ish% to corviknight. Zamazenta is threatened back out ofc, but they can send in something that threatens corviknight out, making it do very little progress. Also like, roar+idbp zama wins against corv.
Pecharunt can sometimes be cheesed by tera steel zamazenta in endgames, forcing it down to a pp stall which if zamazenta is resto chesto, it can actually beat it. Not too reliable, but it is something to account for. Pecharunt can also be taken advantage of by teammates, and has to deal with a wide variety of pokemon already that it isn't too hard to wear it down for a zamazenta sweep.
Yes, zamazenta does have to choose between 4A on AOA sets, but it isn't too bad. Only CC and crunch are necessary, you really only have to pick between heavy slam, stone edge and ice fang. If you choose something like stone edge+heavy slam, then landorus is still being chipped decently well by stone edge.
Corv also does not outclass moltres or zapdos, not in the slightest. Moltres and zapdos are a lot less passive, with the only thing being zapdos can sometimes be passive into ting lu, but fitting u-turn on zapdos can alleviate this immensly, while ting lu still doesn't like hurricane due to its confusion chance. They also spread around crucial status in either paralysis or burn, which is useful to chip down opponents or slow down games.

However, to expand on his post, the biggest problem with zama for me has always been it's lack of any real progress making moves. No removal, no knockoff, no status, etc.

Roar zamazenta is a decent progress maker, as it can shuffle opponents around especially with spikestack or future sight. Kingambit doesn't have any progress making moves (yes, it gets stealth rocks and thunder wave, but nobody is realistically using those), but people still will consider it S tier. It is an issue with zamazenta, but not too large. Typically in longer games it will be hitting its opponents pretty hard or threatening an iron defense sweep.

This means the presence of pokemon such as pech, dondozo, clef, physdef gking, gweezing, moltres, zapdos, etc. means that zama will have a really hard time getting anything done.

Notice how quite a few of these are slammed by coverage. Clefable doesn't like taking heavy slam, physdef gking doesn't particularly like taking crunch (tera dark crunch easily 2hit kos and any defense drops will have gking running for the hills), gweezing doesn't like taking heavy slam, moltres and zapdos hate stone edge. Really only pecharunt and dondozo can safely wall it.

Even its best MU aganist offensive teams, run tera ghost on 1 or 2 things to potentially turn it into a liability.

Yes, this is something that zamazenta does struggle with, but tera ghost is not something that zamazenta teams cannot account for in the builder. Zamazenta can also just crunch on the potential tera ghost against something like kingambit to heavily chip it. It is not really a liability, even when they tera ghost zamazenta is an amazing mon in the offensive matchup.

 

[Moyashi]

This means the presence of pokemon such as pech, dondozo, clef, physdef gking, gweezing, moltres, zapdos

Dondozo barely exists (and that’s still being generous) while Physical def Glowking has massive opportunity cost with being a Glowking that doesn’t check Kyurem at all. Zapdos/Moltres are mons that Zama has demonstrated the capacity to beat with Rest sets, and Clefable/Weezing struggle with Heavy Slam (especially Tera steel variants which rarer, but exist).

As for progress making, Roar alongside hazards (common sight) accomplish this just fine especially as there aren’t all that many mons that can easily take advantage of Zama if it gets into a groove and starts spamming the move. In fact with hazards down, a roar spamming Zama is pretty irritating.

As for win rates, not only is the win rate overblown and not even terrible, it’s also the result of teams going well out of their way to prep for it and it’s STILL performing at a level like that.

Even its best MU aganist offensive teams, run tera ghost on 1 or 2 things to potentially turn it into a liability. For corviknight, I don't feel the need to add anything onto what volcanionisgood said, hit the nail on the head, although I don't think corv is the best mon in the tier. I'd say Zama is A+ and Corv is S-

Tera ghost isn’t a sure fire out because crunch still hits most of those mons, and the most notably Tera ghost user to actually beat Zama is Dragonite. Most others are either vulnerable to being worn down by crunch or roared out.

I’d also really love to hear you elaborate on Corv, because I don’t agree with volcanion on the Mon being S or S-. It’s good, but it doesn’t fulfill the qualities to be either rank when it’s much more fundamentally flawed compared to our current S and S- Pokémon. Yes it’s good, it’s a staple, but it isn’t there.

 

[JackRG]

45% winrate for zamazenta ain't awful, thats not a bad winrate at all. A bad winrate would be something like bolt at 37%. Saying that zamazenta's winrate in SPL is awful is just exaggeration, it did pretty well.

Corv is not S tier, or even really S- tier because it only fits on Balance, Stall, and maybe BO, with even those teams only recently popping up. Zamazenta on the other hand, really only doesn't fit on Stall (and even then I bet if somebody was willing to, they could make it work). It fits on HO, offense, BO and Balance very easily due to its defensive profile and offensive profile. Corviknight also as stated by Moyashi, struggles with passivity at times.

The post is biased since it just ignores some things entirely. Corviknight does not beat every zamazenta set, in fact, it can kinda struggle with quite a few sets. AOA zamzenta wears down corviknight extremely quickly, forcing it to use multiple roosts. Banded or life orb just straight up beat corviknight with the tiniest amount of chip. Iron defense variants even threaten corviknight quite a lot, with after 1 iron defense it doing 50ish% to corviknight. Zamazenta is threatened back out ofc, but they can send in something that threatens corviknight out, making it do very little progress. Also like, roar+idbp zama wins against corv.
Pecharunt can sometimes be cheesed by tera steel zamazenta in endgames, forcing it down to a pp stall which if zamazenta is resto chesto, it can actually beat it. Not too reliable, but it is something to account for. Pecharunt can also be taken advantage of by teammates, and has to deal with a wide variety of pokemon already that it isn't too hard to wear it down for a zamazenta sweep.
Yes, zamazenta does have to choose between 4A on AOA sets, but it isn't too bad. Only CC and crunch are necessary, you really only have to pick between heavy slam, stone edge and ice fang. If you choose something like stone edge+heavy slam, then landorus is still being chipped decently well by stone edge.
Corv also does not outclass moltres or zapdos, not in the slightest. Moltres and zapdos are a lot less passive, with the only thing being zapdos can sometimes be passive into ting lu, but fitting u-turn on zapdos can alleviate this immensly, while ting lu still doesn't like hurricane due to its confusion chance. They also spread around crucial status in either paralysis or burn, which is useful to chip down opponents or slow down games.

Roar zamazenta is a decent progress maker, as it can shuffle opponents around especially with spikestack or future sight. Kingambit doesn't have any progress making moves (yes, it gets stealth rocks and thunder wave, but nobody is realistically using those), but people still will consider it S tier. It is an issue with zamazenta, but not too large. Typically in longer games it will be hitting its opponents pretty hard or threatening an iron defense sweep.

Notice how quite a few of these are slammed by coverage. Clefable doesn't like taking heavy slam, physdef gking doesn't particularly like taking crunch (tera dark crunch easily 2hit kos and any defense drops will have gking running for the hills), gweezing doesn't like taking heavy slam, moltres and zapdos hate stone edge. Really only pecharunt and dondozo can safely wall it.

Yes, this is something that zamazenta does struggle with, but tera ghost is not something that zamazenta teams cannot account for in the builder. Zamazenta can also just crunch on the potential tera ghost against something like kingambit to heavily chip it. It is not really a liability, even when they tera ghost zamazenta is an amazing mon in the offensive matchup.

these are some very solid points, I just don't see how are pokemon with this many glaring flaws can be considered the best mon in the tier (keep in mind, A+ is very good). I think in the current meta the AoA sets are the best sets by far, because realistically how is bp id crunch filler ever gonna sweep let alone threaten anything when crunch is doing under 20% to pech. Since pech and many other common mons give it trouble, zama can often feel like dead weight into many common structures.

 

[FayaWizard]

Corv to any S-adjacent tier is insanity, and so is Zamazenta to A+. I'm a Corv enjoyer myself, but it simply does not have the presence necessary for a S or S- Pokemon.

Let's look at Zamazenta compared to Corviknight.

Splashability
Zamazenta and Corviknight both boast a high degree of splashability, able to fit on multiple team styles. Zamazenta can fit on Hyper Offense, Offense, Bulky Offense, and Balance, while Corviknight fits on Balance, Stall, and small amounts of Bulky Offense. Zamazenta is clearly more splashable, and thus takes splashability, bringing us to 1-0 in favor of the dog.

1-0

Versatility
Zamazenta has a strong amount of versatility, between several variations of the classic IDBP (Leftovers, Chesto-Rest, Substitute vs. Roar), Boots Attacker, and more offensive LO/Expert Belt sets. Meanwhile, Corviknight really only has two sets, IDBP and Pivot sets, and while these two sets are good, they're really the only sets for Corviknight. Thus, Zamazenta clears in versatility, bringing us to 2-0 in favor of the dog.

2-0

Impact
This one is pretty hard to measure, so this is going to be a pretty subjective category. Nonetheless, Zamazenta's impact on both the tier and individual games is pretty high, as befitting its S-rank. As one of the best offensive checks to the myriad of physical threats in the tier, a solid speed control option, and a solid offensive threat in its own right, you'd be hard pressed to not find value from Zamazenta. While yes, it is not the strongest physical threat in the tier and can struggle to break the fatter defensive walls such as Dondozo, Clefable, Gliscor, or even opposing Corviknight, it's not used for its wallbreaking prowess. Instead, its matchup into threats like Kingambit, Darkrai, Dragonite, and Ogerpon-Wellspring are what it's used for, and it performs excellently in these roles.

Meanwhile, Corviknight does have a decent impact, being a strong Pokemon on balance and stall teams, but that's it. Its greatest nemesis, Gholdengo, still remains at large in the tier, and thus continues to hamper Corviknight's attempts at hazard removal, or even pressuring through Body Press or Brave Bird. Corviknight does have solid matchups into most physical threats in the tier, such as the aforementioned Kingambit, Dragonite, Zamazenta, and Great Tusk, but its relative inflexibility really starts to show. All of the above threats can tech options to beat Corviknight, whether it be Tera Ghost/Fairy Kingambit, Encore/Tera Ghost Dragonite, Life Orb Zamazenta, or Booster Attack Great Tusk. It also has worse matchups into far more threats, such as the aforementioned Gholdengo, Garganacl, Offensive Darkrai, and Raging Bolt. Corviknight is still a great Pokemon, but it simply does not have the same impact as Zamazenta. This is 3-0 for Zamazenta.

3-0

Statistics
After that subjective category, lets return to some hard numbers with statistics, specifically tournament ones. Looking at the recent SPL, Zamazenta is sitting with a whopping 30.26% usage rate, 2nd highest of the tournament, and a respectable 45.76% win rate. Meanwhile, Corviknight has a solid 14.87% usage rate, and a strong 65.52% win rate. While some may point to this higher win rate as evidence that Corviknight is better, I think having double the usage rate is more important.

However, what's more damning is the recent WCOP statistics. While there are no official usage statistics (please make the thread), I decided to go through all 21 listed SV OU replays, and count. Zamazenta has an incredible 33.33% usage rate, appearing in 14 of the 21 games. Meanwhile, Corviknight is sitting at a 12% usage rate, appearing in only 5 of the 21 games. Zamazenta is near triple Corviknight's usage rate.
(Fun fact, Zamazenta is also above Ting Lu currently, 14 usages to 11). While this is only the early stages of the tournament, the early numbers are not looking good for Corviknight > Zamazenta users. This is 4-0 for Zamazenta.

Total Score
4-0

TLDR: Zamazenta is better in every metric. Also please release an official usage statistics thread for WCOP.

 

[JackRG]

Corv to any S-adjacent tier is insanity, and so is Zamazenta to A+. I'm a Corv enjoyer myself, but it simply does not have the presence necessary for a S or S- Pokemon.

Let's look at Zamazenta compared to Corviknight.

Splashability
Zamazenta and Corviknight both boast a high degree of splashability, able to fit on multiple team styles. Zamazenta can fit on Hyper Offense, Offense, Bulky Offense, and Balance, while Corviknight fits on Balance, Stall, and small amounts of Bulky Offense. Zamazenta is clearly more splashable, and thus takes splashability, bringing us to 1-0 in favor of the dog.

1-0

Versatility
Zamazenta has a strong amount of versatility, between several variations of the classic IDBP (Leftovers, Chesto-Rest, Substitute vs. Roar), Boots Attacker, and more offensive LO/Expert Belt sets. Meanwhile, Corviknight really only has two sets, IDBP and Pivot sets, and while these two sets are good, they're really the only sets for Corviknight. Thus, Zamazenta clears in versatility, bringing us to 2-0 in favor of the dog.

2-0

Impact
This one is pretty hard to measure, so this is going to be a pretty subjective category. Nonetheless, Zamazenta's impact on both the tier and individual games is pretty high, as befitting its S-rank. As one of the best offensive checks to the myriad of physical threats in the tier, a solid speed control option, and a solid offensive threat in its own right, you'd be hard pressed to not find value from Zamazenta. While yes, it is not the strongest physical threat in the tier and can struggle to break the fatter defensive walls such as Dondozo, Clefable, Gliscor, or even opposing Corviknight, it's not used for its wallbreaking prowess. Instead, its matchup into threats like Kingambit, Darkrai, Dragonite, and Ogerpon-Wellspring are what it's used for, and it performs excellently in these roles.

Meanwhile, Corviknight does have a decent impact, being a strong Pokemon on balance and stall teams, but that's it. Its greatest nemesis, Gholdengo, still remains at large in the tier, and thus continues to hamper Corviknight's attempts at hazard removal, or even pressuring through Body Press or Brave Bird. Corviknight does have solid matchups into most physical threats in the tier, such as the aforementioned Kingambit, Dragonite, Zamazenta, and Great Tusk, but its relative inflexibility really starts to show. All of the above threats can tech options to beat Corviknight, whether it be Tera Ghost/Fairy Kingambit, Encore/Tera Ghost Dragonite, Life Orb Zamazenta, or Booster Attack Great Tusk. It also has worse matchups into far more threats, such as the aforementioned Gholdengo, Garganacl, Offensive Darkrai, and Raging Bolt. Corviknight is still a great Pokemon, but it simply does not have the same impact as Zamazenta. This is 3-0 for Zamazenta.

3-0

Statistics
After that subjective category, lets return to some hard numbers with statistics, specifically tournament ones. Looking at the recent SPL, Zamazenta is sitting with a whopping 30.26% usage rate, 2nd highest of the tournament, and a respectable 45.76% win rate. Meanwhile, Corviknight has a solid 14.87% usage rate, and a strong 65.52% win rate. While some may point to this higher win rate as evidence that Corviknight is better, I think having double the usage rate is more important.

However, what's more damning is the recent WCOP statistics. While there are no official usage statistics (please make the thread), I decided to go through all 21 listed SV OU replays, and count. Zamazenta has an incredible 33.33% usage rate, appearing in 14 of the 21 games. Meanwhile, Corviknight is sitting at a 12% usage rate, appearing in only 5 of the 21 games. Zamazenta is near triple Corviknight's usage rate.
(Fun fact, Zamazenta is also above Ting Lu currently, 14 usages to 11). While this is only the early stages of the tournament, the early numbers are not looking good for Corviknight > Zamazenta users. This is 4-0 for Zamazenta.

Total Score
4-0

TLDR: Zamazenta is better in every metric. Also please release an official usage statistics thread for WCOP.

Honestly a lot of these arguments are incredibly surface level ways of thinking, but something I want to focus on is the versatility section. You mention that zamazenta has a lot of set versatility, and while this is true, you fail to mention that almost all of these sets have very good overlapping counterplay. As volcanionisgood mentioned, almost all of these sets get destroyed but the incredibly common pecharunt for example. Another thing you didn't go into whatsover is consistency. As mentioned, zama has several very rough matchups aganist very common mons, meanwhile corv almost always makes progress with u-turn (and no, the defog sets have almost nothing to do with why he is so good). When Corv preforms decent to great aganist every playstyle in the meta, and zama struggles aganist stall, semistall, and balance. it's hardly "insanity" to suggest the mon that has a far more consistent MU spread should be ranked higher.

 

[Moyashi]

Honestly a lot of these arguments are incredibly surface level ways of thinking, but something I want to focus on is the versatility section. You mention that zamazenta has a lot of set versatility, and while this is true, you fail to mention that almost all of these sets have very good overlapping counterplay. As volcanionisgood mentioned, almost all of these sets get destroyed but the incredibly common pecharunt for example. Another thing you didn't go into whatsover is consistency. As mentioned, zama has several very rough matchups aganist very common mons, meanwhile corv almost always makes progress with u-turn (and no, the defog sets have almost nothing to do with why he is so good). When Corv preforms decent to great aganist every playstyle in the meta, and zama struggles aganist stall, semistall, and balance. it's hardly "insanity" to suggest the mon that has a far more consistent MU spread should be ranked higher.

Calling Zama “dead weight” into common structures just isn’t correct at all. It’s able to contribute to its team even when these checks are present and watching high level games showcase this. You haven’t actually argued how it supposedly struggles into common mons but I actually tried to explain how it can handle several of these supposed trouble match ups (rest handles Moltres, Roar shuffles and makes progress with hazards down, attacking sets are more instantly aggressive).

Pecharunt’s limited Malignent Chain PP has to be leveraged carefully vs Zamazenta teams, and Rest Zama could potentially just out stall Pecha (and some subpress variants just beat Pecha).

Getting into Corv, being frank you’re vastly overstating just how good it is, especially against certain playstyles. It deserves its A rank, but it’s still a pokemon with passivity issues. You can spam U-turn all you want but if rocks are up, you’re still getting chipped (bonus if you end up u-turning on a helmet user) and it’s easy to exploit with it being forced to roost so it’s not too low to be bowled over. U-Turn is a momentum tool not so much progress (guess you could argue it kind of is but I don’t entirely agree).

 

[#1 Talonflame Enjoyer]

Words can not describe my joy when I saw this

D to C-

 

[Shadow Crystal]

Why did Tinka rise?

 

[UltraSword]

Ok after reading all of these posts on Zama and Corv, I still think that Corv should be moved up to A+ but while I still want Zama to be S-, I do think it could also realistically be A+. The Pecharunt mu really sucks and (aside from roar) it really doesn't have any progress making moves that aren't just...more attacks. Zama is of course nowhere near bad but it has such glaring flaws that I am not completely sure which rank it belongs in. As for Corv my stance remains the same and it is only added onto further by the fact that (similar to Zama) it has very few progress making moves aside from defog and u turn. In fact, I feel like if it (still) had it Zapdos would probably be a better defogger because it actually has ways to beat Gholdengo.

 

[Achohermano]

Who else can take on weavile and kingambit over the course of a long game?

To not make it a one liner, I agree with you on your Zamazenta point (half of it) I don't think Zamazenta is the "best" in the tier, but it's clearly a top tier and at least top 5. As Moyashi said, Zamazenta is useful in every game, can clean up a lot of teams under a bit of chip damage and has a lot of set variety.

Its speed is also amazing, being only outspeed by Dragapult means most of the time AoA Zamazenta can clear weakend HO teams, it bodies non-tera Gambit (insanely important in this tier) and can even punish mons switching in with Roar sets.

 

[Insolence]

Zama's ability to make progress into fat is greatly overstated in this thread and most of the examples given do not pass the sniff test of actually happening either on the high ladder or in tours. People bring up his strong matchup into offense, but one thing to note is that thanks to its abysmal ability to get anything done against bulkier team comps, most offense is happy to trade tera to chip the Zama enough that their end game cleaner can perform its role, as the rest of the team needs insurance to not lose on preview to stall or balance.

The post is biased since it just ignores some things entirely. Corviknight does not beat every zamazenta set, in fact, it can kinda struggle with quite a few sets. AOA zamzenta wears down corviknight extremely quickly, forcing it to use multiple roosts. Banded or life orb just straight up beat corviknight with the tiniest amount of chip. Iron defense variants even threaten corviknight quite a lot, with after 1 iron defense it doing 50ish% to corviknight. Zamazenta is threatened back out ofc, but they can send in something that threatens corviknight out, making it do very little progress. Also like, roar+idbp zama wins against corv.

252+ Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 60 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 142-168 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Corv has enough speed to creep jolly Gambit.)
Also, note that due to pressure, CC only has 4 PP into Corv, which means that Zama is equally ineffective at draining Roost PP, so Corv can still fulfill its role of checking other physical attackers in the endgame. (Unlike how knocking off helmet can allow Tera Ghost Gambit to muscle past IDBP Corv).

Band, Expert Belt, and Life Orb are not at all splashable and all come with their own set of drawbacks. Any mon will have good looking calcs if you assume the greediest set for it, but these sets are not run on many teams for good reason.

Calling Zama “dead weight” into common structures just isn’t correct at all. It’s able to contribute to its team even when these checks are present and watching high level games showcase this. You haven’t actually argued how it supposedly struggles into common mons but I actually tried to explain how it can handle several of these supposed trouble match ups (rest handles Moltres, Roar shuffles and makes progress with hazards down, attacking sets are more instantly aggressive).

Here are recent games from the WCoP qualifiers showing Zama flopping against a variety of cores:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-838154
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-839284
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-838821
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-836587
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-838061
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-838037
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-838561
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-839125

I'm not going to analyze these games as I dislike backseating better players, but multiple posters have already posted lists of splashable checks that easily deal with Zama while still being fulfilling important roles in the meta, and these replays are more than enough proof of that. Zama frequently ends up being dead weight, thudding into defensive cores and failing to perform the roles it is supposed to.

If I wanted to be more subjective I could also include several replays of games where Zama won but accomplished barely anything.

After that subjective category, lets return to some hard numbers with statistics, specifically tournament ones. Looking at the recent SPL, Zamazenta is sitting with a whopping 30.26% usage rate, 2nd highest of the tournament, and a respectable 45.76% win rate. Meanwhile, Corviknight has a solid 14.87% usage rate, and a strong 65.52% win rate. While some may point to this higher win rate as evidence that Corviknight is better, I think having double the usage rate is more important.

However, what's more damning is the recent WCOP statistics. While there are no official usage statistics (please make the thread), I decided to go through all 21 listed SV OU replays, and count. Zamazenta has an incredible 33.33% usage rate, appearing in 14 of the 21 games. Meanwhile, Corviknight is sitting at a 12% usage rate, appearing in only 5 of the 21 games. Zamazenta is near triple Corviknight's usage rate.
(Fun fact, Zamazenta is also above Ting Lu currently, 14 usages to 11). While this is only the early stages of the tournament, the early numbers are not looking good for Corviknight > Zamazenta users. This is 4-0 for Zamazenta.

As for win rates, not only is the win rate overblown and not even terrible, it’s also the result of teams going well out of their way to prep for it and it’s STILL performing at a level like that.

45% is not a good win rate.

Compare it to Kingambit, for example, which had a 53% winrate in SPL and sits at a 55% winrate in WCoP after qualifiers.
Great Tusk has a 55% winrate in WCoP and a 52% winrate in SPL while being #1 and #2 in usage respectively.
Waterpon, who boasts a higher usage rate than Zamazenta in WCoP, towers over it with a 53% winrate.
Dragonite, while doing poorly in WCoP currently, still has a higher winrate than Zama (with higher usage) and when you consider SPL, had a roughly equal usage rate but almost 7% higher winrate (46% vs 53%).

Winrate is not the end all of evidence and should be taken in consideration with the current meta trends and developments.
That being said, you cannot ignore hard statistics and replace them with conjecture. Two tours with hundreds of total games paint a very clear picture of the shape of the current meta, and Zama's place in it.

The argument that Zama's winrate is being artificially lowered by teams overpreparing for it makes no sense in light of the actual numbers - you yourself cite Zama as a great physical check to Gambit, so if so, why is Gambit's winrate so high despite Zama being everywhere? There is nothing to actually back up this point, as a mon's counters becoming more widespread would mean it gets less viable.

I'm not going to address ladder stats here as it feels disingenuous to use April stats when we're so near the end of May.
That being said, Zama consistently has had lower usage rates than Tusk, Gambit, Ghold, and Nite for the past few months, so it's not overperforming in that category either.

With all that taken into consideration, I struggle to understand how Zama can be considered a better 'mon in the current metagame than threats like Tusk, Nite, or Gambit. Zama is still extremely powerful, but stats show that the current metagame is not favorable to it, and it is an extremely odd choice to have it listed at #2 when all the evidence points towards other 'mons having better standing in the current meta. It has a much worse matchup into the current dominant team styles, and new trends have made certain sets much less effective than they previously were.

I'm interested in hearing the reasoning of the council members as to why it is ranked as highly as it is.

 

[Eeveeto]

I don,t think that Zama is the best Pokemon, but that is because Tusk and Gholdengo exist. Zama is extremely good vs offense with any ot the sets it has. I think IronPress is overrated, but it still gets many wins. The Max Attack sets on the other hand, are absolutely devastating vs offensive teams and do a lot of damage vs balanced ones too, the only problem is Pecharunt (who you can still get with Band Tera Dark Crunch or something like LO Howl) and having to choose between killing fairies, Gliscor or Moltres (you get to choose 2 of the 3 still). Its Dark match-up is godly and it more than deserves the S rank.

Top 10 Mons in my opinion:
1. Tusk.
2. Ghold.
3. Zama.
4. Gliscor
5. Gambit
6. Dragonite
7. Ting Lu
8. Corviknight (I love this bird, but its never going to S with Gholdengo in the meta)
9. Waterpon
10. Kyurem

 

[Oofhixd]

Why did Tinka rise?

While im not an expert, i believe the rise in tink was due to tingpech balance being probably the best archetype in the game rn. It fits super well onto these teams and as the meta shifts more and more away from HO and into balance, the better tink gets due to it fitting on more and more teams

 

[volcanionisgood]

I also take issue with the tone of your post which implies that top players are "ignoring how Zama sucked in SPL" which isn't even true, nor would good players ignore it if it were so. Top players aren't too afraid to say when something has a rough spot or just isn't good. This post has somewhat of a matter-of-fact tone that pushes your opinion as fact when it's just opinion. You're plenty entitled to it obviously, but there are better ways to get it across it.

Heatranator: 45% winrate for zamazenta ain't awful, thats not a bad winrate at all. A bad winrate would be something like bolt at 37%. Saying that zamazenta's winrate in SPL is awful is just exaggeration, it did pretty well.

I have said pretty much all I wanted to say on the topic in my initial post. I have been pleased to see healthy discussion on the topic. I did want to point out some blatant misinformation I am seeing. I saw the 45% number being thrown around. The number to look at is 43.59% that is Zamazenta's winrate without mirror. Why is that important? Well, when a team with zamazenta and a team with zamazenta play each other it both won and lost so a mirror pushes the stats towards 50%. Zamazenta benefits the most from this phenomena, because it's winrate was so low and its usage so high, (therefore chance to mirror matchup was high) that it actually moved the needle quite a bit to make it look more respectable.

Zamazenta objectively sucked in SPL (especially for an S rank pokemon). It is not my opinion, it is not a hot take, it is looking at the facts and coming to a conclusion. I should have included the actual number in my first post, but I did not realize Zamazenta defenders would ignore the fact it did the worst of the top 10 pokemon in usage. To call this out as simply "my opinion" is misinformative at best. Zamazenta put in the worst winrate in the top 10 pokemon in usage, the 4th worst of the top 20 used pokemon (2nd if you put the line at 18 lol). I did use a matter-of-fact tone because that is what it is. I would like you to define sucking. I would for sure say that the placing as worst of the top 10 most used for the supposed "best pokemon in Overused" qualifies as sucking in of itself, even if Zamazenta put in a less atrocious performance than it actually did just being the worst is suspect enough. Then we have to compound that with the fact that 43.59% is just a terrible figure even without the context. Hell 45% is terrible as it is. I think you are letting your high opinion of Zamazenta cloud your judgements. If you accept that it did terribly and then come up with arguments as to why it is still good, how it was just a one off poor performance that is one thing, but denying statistics and facts and arguing from fantasy land is silly.

I did want to touch on something else that does fall into the realm of opinion more than fact. I consider versatility to be generally negative in a pokemon. They say a Jack of all trades is a master of none, and that really applies to pokemon. Versatility means that you can't do everything you want in 4 moves every time, outside of extreme outliers who do a few different things to tremendous effect like Magearna. "Versatility" for offensive pokemon is usually code for this pokemon's coverage has fundamental problems. For instance archuladon, flutter mane, espathra, and iron bundle make up a good portion of the upper echeleon of most broken pokemon to fall into gen 9 OU (possibly even ever), and they were complete one trick ponies. Things like roaring moon and gen 7 zygarde had more versatility and were around way longer and less broken than the one trick ponies. Why am I bringing up ubers, because I could throw around OU pokemon but that would boil down to opinions. Ubers, however, were legal for a specific amount of time and we have data on how broken they were from votes which is a fine measure to use in general. Point being if something could be a one trick pony it would do that instead of picking and choosing what it beats and what it loses to. Because that is the thing, being versatile means that something is stopping you from using the best moves and going to town. That is a phenomena very apparent with zamazenta. 4 attacks zamazenta is versatile not because it wants to be, but because it can't do everything so has to pick where to take Ls. No one is going to argue mew is better than manaphy in any gen they overlap but for all of pokemon history until gen 9 manaphy clicked tail glow and went to town while mew was good at times but meh overall even with its unlimited versatility.

Corviknight has a bit of versatility but he is just the physdef guy at the end of the day. He is the best at the job and that is admirable not a negative. Zamazenta to me is just a guy. He's a good boots attacker, not the best I would say weavile is him rn and I'd put some other stuff above him as well but that is splitting hairs. His idef sets are a solid matchup fish/ late game wincon, but definitely not as impressive in the matchup fish role as dragonite.

 

[veti]

Both winrate and usage are completely separate from viability, winrate is pretty much meaningless and usage stats just show whats trendy, not whats good. If you want to argue Zamazenta's viability by analyzing tours, analyze the games themselves, not the completely out of context + low sample size sheets.

Winrate arguments for Zamazenta are especially poor, maybe the winrate is low, but with such a low sample size (winrate without mirror has a significantly lower sample size even) the stats are just not worth anything even if Zamazenta was the problem with the teams, which the winrate argument assumes. Zamazenta is a glue mon, and so is one of the best mons to pair with not great / bad mons if an spl player is feeling experimental that week, and being forced onto teams with shitmons will force its winrate down. Same goes to Corv, and Corv did actually happen to just be on attributes broken clefable team which was spammed a ton by multiple players.

Also SPL was a different meta that had roaring moon and didnt have months of meta development. That alone should invalidate every argument about SPL statistics

 

[JackRG]

Both winrate and usage are completely separate from viability, winrate is pretty much meaningless and usage stats just show whats trendy, not whats good. If you want to argue Zamazenta's viability by analyzing tours, analyze the games themselves, not the completely out of context + low sample size sheets.

Winrate arguments for Zamazenta are especially poor, maybe the winrate is low, but with such a low sample size (winrate without mirror has a significantly lower sample size even) the stats are just not worth anything even if Zamazenta was the problem with the teams, which the winrate argument assumes. Zamazenta is a glue mon, and so is one of the best mons to pair with not great / bad mons if an spl player is feeling experimental that week, and being forced onto teams with shitmons will force its winrate down. Same goes to Corv, and Corv did actually happen to just be on attributes broken clefable team which was spammed a ton by multiple players.

Also SPL was a different meta that had roaring moon and didnt have months of meta development. That alone should invalidate every argument about SPL statistics

Wouldn’t roaring moon being the tier actually help zama tho? I also don’t think its fair to say winrate is “irrelevant”. I do agree context matters, but it is always a worthwhile statistic to analyze, even if a flawed one. Also you say “analyze the games themselves”, but isn’t that exactly what he did in his video?

 

[UltraSword]

Wouldn’t roaring moon being the tier actually help zama tho?

In my opinion no because Roaring Moon is such a tera hog that it doesn't worry about body press too much (unless Zama is high enough defense but in that case you are screwed using almost any mon). Aoa is arguably even worse since Zamazenta's coverage moves for Roaring Moon's teras are coming off of a rather mid 120 attack with no stab (unless you go tera steel for heavy slam against tera fairy RM) and no good way of boosting said attack with a move like swords dance, dragon dance, etc.

 

[Conflux123]

Wouldn’t roaring moon being the tier actually help zama tho?

Tfairy blast could just remove what is considered an S Tier mon and physical blanket check that has a good matchup into offense.

I also don’t think it’s fair to say winrate is “irrelevant”. I do agree context matters, but it is always a worthwhile statistic to analyze, even if a flawed one.

Idk about this. Imo, if the specific games and context of a win rate are not discussed, than the evidence is being distorted and is kind of useless.

 

[JackRG]

Idk about this. Imo, if the specific games and context of a win rate are not discussed, than the evidence is being distorted and is kind of useless.

Bro. Did you even read my previous posts? I literally just said in my last post that he discusses specific games from SPL in his vid. Throughout the last pages we’ve been going over its struggles into common cores and playstyles.

Tfairy blast could just remove what is considered an S Tier mon and physical blanket check that has a good matchup into offense.

You also completely ignore the fact that zama can just tera back to live this. I agree roaring moon was broken, but zama was undeniably one of its better checks

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I do think Corviknight can rise to A+, it probably should but I think that's where it ends for now.

Corviknights 4mss is pretty bad, you want Roost + U-Turn + Brave Bird + Body Press + Iron Defense + Defog (hell I seen Iron Head once out of 50 games but I won't be adding that just to be extra charitable to the bird). Don't have Brave Bird, can't threaten Ogerpon-Wellspring very well, and definitely can't threaten Iron Valiant at all. Don't have U-Turn it becomes a momentum sink into a lot of structures. Don't have Iron Defense lol well it's self explanatory, same for no Body Press as well. You can get away with not having Defog if you have gweez but then gweez is pressured indirectly to come in more often to Defog which isn't great for a Pokemon that doesn't have too reliable of recovery like Corv. Most counterplay to ID Press Zamazenta works the same against corviknight, most Tera Ghost bother Corviknight even greater than it would Zama due to Corviknight either only having Body Press or even if it has BB it has recoil making it's pressure pp stall win less likely given Roost 8 PP + recoil.

Corviknight is a great Pokemon not because it's this almighty wall, it's definitely not given the 4mss, but because it's able to pinpoint which Pokemon it wants to reliably beat which can help it form strong cores. THIS is not Corviknight carrying entire teams or archetypes on it's own. This is just a very good Pokemon at making consistent defensive cores for Stall/Balance/sometimes BO. Corv + Gweez is not very good because Corviknight does all the work, it's very good because they can both Defog easing the workload for Weezing-Galar to not take too much damage, while having Weezing-Galar deal with Pokemon like Iron Valiant that ID mono Press Corviknight cannot. Very clearly we can see that Corviknight helps the weakness Gweez has of lack of stable recovery, and Gweez helping Corviknights issue of mono-press being not Ideal for a variety of common mu's.

This then ties into the next point, the reason why Corviknight has a very strong SPL winrate which is quite simple. Defensive structures in tournament are moderately better because you do not have to worry about having an answer to the general metagame (doing so is a losing battle lol), instead you just need to prepare well for your opponent's common brings / account for how they individually play the game (which in some cases allows you to ignore some MU's entirely due to unlikeliness). This lines perfectly with what Corviknight is extremely good at, defensively beating specific Pokemon/sets. It's very easy to see as an example; "hey this guy likes using Ogerpon-Wellspring + Gholdengo, so I'll use Brave Bird + U-Turn Corviknight with Ting-Lu". Forming strong defensive cores for specific brings is literally this Pokemon's specialty, it has 4mss but with the right moveset for the given matchup it can feel like an S- Pokemon. It's not surprising that a Pokemon designed for this condition of play was commonly used and did well, along with a little bit of it being an outlier which can be attributed to variance a tad bit.

However the VR is not just tournament play, it factors in the general metagame as well (usually going to be ladder and BO3 tournaments) and in that aspect Corviknight noticeably takes a dip because again if you have the wrong move set, it almost feels like a hinderance to have. It also does not help that things like Tera Ghost and Tera Fire are quite common which usually screws over Corviknight but that's quite a general statement so I don't have much else to explain there besides 'this annoys it'. This Pokemon is very clearly a team player and not an MVP, nor is it a centralizing part of the building process besides for Stall which is an outlier case due to it's questionable viability and lack of alternatives. Corviknight is very good specifically when other Pokemon cover it's weakness from lacking x specific move. That alone isn't an S- let alone S rank Pokemon.

 

[Conflux123]

Bro. Did you even read my previous posts? I literally just said in my last post that he discusses specific games from SPL in his vid. Throughout the last pages we’ve been going over its struggles into common cores and playstyles.

I didn't mean for this specific case, I meant generally since what you said sounds like you meant it to apply widely.

You also completely ignore the fact that zama can just tera back to live this. I agree roaring moon was broken, but zama was undeniably one of its better checks

Won't it already chip down zama so much that it becomes unable to check other things? I don't see how you stop that unless you decide to predict their tera with yours.

 

[JackRG]

I do think Corviknight can rise to A+, it probably should but I think that's where it ends for now.

Corviknights 4mss is pretty bad, you want Roost + U-Turn + Brave Bird + Body Press + Iron Defense + Defog (hell I seen Iron Head once out of 50 games but I won't be adding that just to be extra charitable to the bird). Don't have Brave Bird, can't threaten Ogerpon-Wellspring very well, and definitely can't threaten Iron Valiant at all. Don't have U-Turn it becomes a momentum sink into a lot of structures. Don't have Iron Defense lol well it's self explanatory, same for no Body Press as well. You can get away with not having Defog if you have gweez but then gweez is pressured indirectly to come in more often to Defog which isn't great for a Pokemon that doesn't have too reliable of recovery like Corv. Most counterplay to ID Press Zamazenta works the same against corviknight, most Tera Ghost bother Corviknight even greater than it would Zama due to Corviknight either only having Body Press or even if it has BB it has recoil making it's pressure pp stall win less likely given Roost 8 PP + recoil.

Corviknight is a great Pokemon not because it's this almighty wall, it's definitely not given the 4mss, but because it's able to pinpoint which Pokemon it wants to reliably beat which can help it form strong cores. THIS is not Corviknight carrying entire teams or archetypes on it's own. This is just a very good Pokemon at making consistent defensive cores for Stall/Balance/sometimes BO. Corv + Gweez is not very good because Corviknight does all the work, it's very good because they can both Defog easing the workload for Weezing-Galar to not take too much damage, while having Weezing-Galar deal with Pokemon like Iron Valiant that ID mono Press Corviknight cannot. Very clearly we can see that Corviknight helps the weakness Gweez has of lack of stable recovery, and Gweez helping Corviknights issue of mono-press being not Ideal for a variety of common mu's.

This then ties into the next point, the reason why Corviknight has a very strong SPL winrate which is quite simple. Defensive structures in tournament are moderately better because you do not have to worry about having an answer to the general metagame (doing so is a losing battle lol), instead you just need to prepare well for your opponent's common brings / account for how they individually play the game (which in some cases allows you to ignore some MU's entirely due to unlikeliness). This lines perfectly with what Corviknight is extremely good at, defensively beating specific Pokemon/sets. It's very easy to see as an example; "hey this guy likes using Ogerpon-Wellspring + Gholdengo, so I'll use Brave Bird + U-Turn Corviknight with Ting-Lu". Forming strong defensive cores for specific brings is literally this Pokemon's specialty, it has 4mss but with the right moveset for the given matchup it can feel like an S- Pokemon. It's not surprising that a Pokemon designed for this condition of play was commonly used and did well, along with a little bit of it being an outlier which can be attributed to variance a tad bit.

However the VR is not just tournament play, it factors in the general metagame as well (usually going to be ladder and BO3 tournaments) and in that aspect Corviknight noticeably takes a dip because again if you have the wrong move set, it almost feels like a hinderance to have. It also does not help that things like Tera Ghost and Tera Fire are quite common which usually screws over Corviknight but that's quite a general statement so I don't have much else to explain there besides 'this annoys it'. This Pokemon is very clearly a team player and not an MVP, nor is it a centralizing part of the building process besides for Stall which is an outlier case due to it's questionable viability and lack of alternatives. Corviknight is very good specifically when other Pokemon cover it's weakness from lacking x specific move. That alone isn't an S- let alone S rank Pokemon.

Very well put, I think A+ is a logical placement for corviknight ATM. Could you go in depth about what you think about zama in the current meta and if it’s S rank placement is deserved? I’m interested to here your thoughts.

 

[Magcargo]

I do think Corviknight can rise to A+, it probably should but I think that's where it ends for now.

Corviknights 4mss is pretty bad, you want Roost + U-Turn + Brave Bird + Body Press + Iron Defense + Defog (hell I seen Iron Head once out of 50 games but I won't be adding that just to be extra charitable to the bird). Don't have Brave Bird, can't threaten Ogerpon-Wellspring very well, and definitely can't threaten Iron Valiant at all. Don't have U-Turn it becomes a momentum sink into a lot of structures. Don't have Iron Defense lol well it's self explanatory, same for no Body Press as well. You can get away with not having Defog if you have gweez but then gweez is pressured indirectly to come in more often to Defog which isn't great for a Pokemon that doesn't have too reliable of recovery like Corv. Most counterplay to ID Press Zamazenta works the same against corviknight, most Tera Ghost bother Corviknight even greater than it would Zama due to Corviknight either only having Body Press or even if it has BB it has recoil making it's pressure pp stall win less likely given Roost 8 PP + recoil.

Corviknight is a great Pokemon not because it's this almighty wall, it's definitely not given the 4mss, but because it's able to pinpoint which Pokemon it wants to reliably beat which can help it form strong cores. THIS is not Corviknight carrying entire teams or archetypes on it's own. This is just a very good Pokemon at making consistent defensive cores for Stall/Balance/sometimes BO. Corv + Gweez is not very good because Corviknight does all the work, it's very good because they can both Defog easing the workload for Weezing-Galar to not take too much damage, while having Weezing-Galar deal with Pokemon like Iron Valiant that ID mono Press Corviknight cannot. Very clearly we can see that Corviknight helps the weakness Gweez has of lack of stable recovery, and Gweez helping Corviknights issue of mono-press being not Ideal for a variety of common mu's.

This then ties into the next point, the reason why Corviknight has a very strong SPL winrate which is quite simple. Defensive structures in tournament are moderately better because you do not have to worry about having an answer to the general metagame (doing so is a losing battle lol), instead you just need to prepare well for your opponent's common brings / account for how they individually play the game (which in some cases allows you to ignore some MU's entirely due to unlikeliness). This lines perfectly with what Corviknight is extremely good at, defensively beating specific Pokemon/sets. It's very easy to see as an example; "hey this guy likes using Ogerpon-Wellspring + Gholdengo, so I'll use Brave Bird + U-Turn Corviknight with Ting-Lu". Forming strong defensive cores for specific brings is literally this Pokemon's specialty, it has 4mss but with the right moveset for the given matchup it can feel like an S- Pokemon. It's not surprising that a Pokemon designed for this condition of play was commonly used and did well, along with a little bit of it being an outlier which can be attributed to variance a tad bit.

However the VR is not just tournament play, it factors in the general metagame as well (usually going to be ladder and BO3 tournaments) and in that aspect Corviknight noticeably takes a dip because again if you have the wrong move set, it almost feels like a hinderance to have. It also does not help that things like Tera Ghost and Tera Fire are quite common which usually screws over Corviknight but that's quite a general statement so I don't have much else to explain there besides 'this annoys it'. This Pokemon is very clearly a team player and not an MVP, nor is it a centralizing part of the building process besides for Stall which is an outlier case due to it's questionable viability and lack of alternatives. Corviknight is very good specifically when other Pokemon cover it's weakness from lacking x specific move. That alone isn't an S- let alone S rank Pokemon.

Lets not forget that Corvi is also one of the best pivots and partners to many other key offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, Kyurem, Weavile, Hydrapple, Kingambit, and more. I can't speak to others, but I still highly rate Corv's ability to bring most Ice-type attackers safely into Gliscor given how centralizing it can feel some games and being one of the few Pokemon able to absorb Knock Off (unlike some of its competitors like Moltres or Pecharunt) is also very important. There are a few others it may compete in this role, like Gliscor or Rotom-W, but I believe corv is the best at it due to its bulk being the best, its recovery being reliable, the Ice Neutrality (key against the standard Great Tusk) and overall having the best MUs vs the key pillars of the tier like Gambit, Great Tusk, Gliscor (Rotom-W Hydros are easy to stall out).

I can't really agree with the 4MSS argument - this just seems like something where you pick the moves that are more favorable for a given team composition. If I'm running ID Zama or another KG check on the team, it can be easier to opt for Brave Bird for the Ogerpon-W / IV MU, while if I'm running some other Oger Checks like Pult or Raging Bolt + something like Gking for Valiant, ID + BP will be easier to run. Personally I think Defog is just bad on most Corv teams barring something like hardcore stall or certain Kyurem teams, as removing your own hazard pressure just feels bad, but it is a move you could feasibly run on BB sets or on teams where momentum isn't as important. And of course there are a few other moves like Iron Head, Theif (gimmicky tech I saw once where Corv could steal something like Boots from another Pokemon after getting Knocked), Spite, etc. but most of this is extremely fringe / niche. I think the standard ID / BP / Roost / U-Turn set gets by in most cases, isn't significantly worse vs Ogerpon-W, and mostly just loses to Valiant (which is mogged by other mons on a Corv team typically).

I am aware you brought up the point of how Corv gets helped by its teammates in this regard, but this sort of symbiosis exist with most of the S-Rank mons. Zama isn't just farming everything with ID + BP - it will have some key weaknesses with its various sets depending on what it runs in its last slot. Yet it accounts for that with help from its teammates. Both of Gliscor's offensive and defensive sets are also similar - SD sets are only so strong because of the external support they have and support sets face a simlar dilemma where you want a billion moves like Toxic, U-Turn, EQ, Knock, Protect, Spikes, Rocks, etc while also having some issues walling a few mons like Raging Bolt or Tusk, but these weaknesses are covered by its teammates. And I'm sure you could argue similar dilemmas with Great Tusk (very obvious mon who suffers from this actually since the standard set wants Rocks, CC, HLR, Knock, Spin, and Ice Spinner minimum), Dragonite, and Kingambit (very small 4MSS but it somewhat exists between Iron Head, TB, and Low Kick).

I'm not arguing Corv should be S-Rank, and A+ is looking like a bit of a stretch since the initial WCop performance isn't great (though I'd still say its an A+ mon personally) but I don't agree with approaching it not being S-Rank from the lense of its 4MSS being too high. The point about it being less explosive than the other S-Ranks is a bit more compelling since most of them can be very threatening to certain arcehtypes.