Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

Out of the tour so it's time for round 2 of ORAS post. Brain is fried after brainrotting on setcomp update for many hours today so post is a little snappy but yeah- ORAS! This time no revolutionary new tech, but refinements of things that already existed or fun alternate sets for meta mons that I ended up running this tour.

:raikou: Raikou! :raikou:
A set we actually made and refined specifically for the tiebreaker but didn't end up bringing, this set is optimised for Sub + Leftovers HP and speed tier for Serp, this beautifully frees up 64 EVs which, as it turns out, is the exact amount you need to bulk a scarf victini.
Code:
Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Def / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge / Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Protect
- Calm Mind
It's awkward to build with but beats a surprising lot and can easily be C+ or B- on the VR.

:lopunny-mega: Bulky Mega Lopunny :lopunny-mega:
Semifinals tech that also didn't end up making it to games, but this one was born from the thought that adamant lop lowkey doesn't really need max speed and wondering what you can bulk if you drop it. We ended up dropping a bit of speed and some attack to bulk scarf KyuB.
Code:
Anti-KyuB Bulky (Lopunny-Mega) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 112 Atk / 184 Def / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Giga Impact
- High Jump Kick
- Encore / Thunder Punch / Ice Punch / Endure / Substitute
Speed is for serperior, but if you drop Encore you can consider dropping it by a little more and get a bit more damage. in terms of damage, you're roughly equivalent to Jolly with this spread (3 Atk more or something) which is less than what you normally want to run Adamant Lopunny for obviously but still totally usable

:metagross-mega: The right way to run protect :metagross-mega:
This set is very likely making it onto setcomp because it just performs really well generally. Its biggest flaw is that it has no moveslots to run anything other than these 4 but if these are the moves you need then you can easily get away with it
Code:
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 176 HP / 16 Atk / 100 Def / 216 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
This outspeeds Adamant Garchomp and Jolly Lando-T while the bulk lets you tank Mega Gyarados Crunch and more importantly Jolly Garchomp. Your reason to run Protect on Metagross is usually to beat Garchomp, and this does it gracefully while still having a ton of bulk to work with.

If you have no desire to beat Gyarados, you can instead run this alternative fast spread bulked for scarf Lando-T that ends up having 4th move flexibility and more damage

hi guys huge blunder by me, the above metagross set does not work because my research into ORAS rough skin mechanics was wrong... So here's a bulky protect spread that is STILL better than 252/252 so I'm not a complete fraud! Bulked for scarf Lando-T with (obviously) speed for chomper
Code:
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 56 HP / 224 Atk / 36 Def / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Meteor Mash
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch / Earthquake / Zen Headbutt / Whatever the fuck else you want

:Venusaur-Mega: Charm Venu is Back :Venusaur-Mega:
In a world where Serp is like the only grass type I run, I think it's time to bring back charm venu. This one in particular is bulked for Garchomp with SpA to guarantee the 2HKO on Slowbro with Petal Dance. I really enjoy running this.
Code:
Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 32 SpA / 12 SpD / 104 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Petal Dance
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Charm

:entei: I owe you an Entei set from last time :entei:
This beats band KyuB every time which is cool. I'd also totally recommend messing around with Life Orb.
Code:
Entei @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 192 Def / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
- Endure

:magnezone: I snuck this onto a team and NOBODY on Horrors complained about it :magnezone:
I'm a long-time analytic zone enjoyer, quite possibly the only analytic zone enjoyer, but I'm back and I've done it again in ORAS this time. I tried to do this in OGPL but failed because Endure+Analytic are incompatible which means you can't make a bulky custap set...

Code:
Magnezone @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 44 SpA / 204 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Metal Sound
- Hidden Power [Fire]
8 Spe is there to speed creep base 60s after HP Fire drops your speed by 1. This has enough spa to 2HKO most Gardevoir with Thunderbolt so you can Flash Cannon -> Thunderbolt to dodge Disable. Special Defense for Genesect Download and HP Fire to beat it. The vibes on this set are immaculate.

Balance talk
I don't think anything in ORAS is currently banworthy. Sableye and Slowbro can be annoying but with a healthy dose of serp or mawile spam they don't cause any problems. This is probably the most fun I've ever had in ORAS, banning mew and zardx was a great move, I don't think unbanning ZardY will make things better.
- Felucia
 
Last edited:
HIC it's IC, been playing bw for about a year now, so i'm gonna yap about it.

BeeWee takes time

:haxorus:This mon is unmanagable.
Inverse Crustle in terms of cheesability. Between band, scarf, Def dragon gem and SpD custap and the ability to choose between Unnerve and Mold Breaker it has basically no safe counters bar Genesect. The only way to really build teams that beat it safely and comfortably is by just assuming people aren't SpD invest or to use Genesect. It very easily boils matchups down to setreads and 50/50s.
Haxorus @ Custap Berry
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 8 Def / 212 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Endure
- Dual Chop

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Haxorus: 150-177 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 212 SpD Haxorus: 301-355 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Taunt Reflect sets can 50/50. Focus Blast (fighting gem is even better) + Aqua Jet can win too. If you want an anti-haxorus Keldeo fighting gem is your best bet, one-tapping scarf+band and having good odds of beating this.

Custap helps vs Mana & Latis too.
Anti Gene* (Haxorus) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 200 HP / 56 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Reversal
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Endure
- Outrage / Swords Dance

Outrage > Swords Dance gives best sect MU, but it still beats a lot of the generic mons custap outrage beats like this.
Beats any choiced Genesect (band needs a setread)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Genesect Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Haxorus: 290-342 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

56 SpA gives best odds into non ice beam occa.
56 SpA 30 IVs Haxorus Hidden Power Fire vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 152-180 (47 - 55.7%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Haxorus: 144-171 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

56 atk w sd is better against choiced jeans.

Swords Dance > Hidden Power [Fire] seems a pretty decent set on its own, retaining a good choiced jim matchup.


:genesect: The single Haxorus answertm.
idt the tier is playable without this atm, having the ability to beat both meloetta and haxorus is incredibly valuable. it has a lot of options theoretically, but i found myself only really using occa and physically biased scarf. Max Atk X-Scissor is the only way scarf is really beating meloetta somewhat reliably. Occa is just very safe, allowing it to beat most sturdies and most Meloetta, Cresselia and Haxorus sets in one set.

Being beatable by a lot of miscellaneous mons with hp fire or random fire coverage helps make it feel more managable, at least compared to some of the other top mons atm
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 8 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Def / 120 Spe
Naughty Nature
- X-Scissor
- Giga Impact / Fly
- Ice Beam / Bug Buzz
- Flamethrower / Thunderbolt / Iron Head / Shadow Claw

Speed is base 130s ig
Bulk for scarf hax
252+ Atk Haxorus Superpower over 2 turns vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 240-284 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- not a KO
252+ Atk Haxorus Earthquake over 2 turns vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 240-284 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- not a KO

if max speed jolly, has rolls to kill if bug buzz > ice beam.
252 Atk Haxorus Superpower over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 16 Def Genesect: 245-290 (86.5 - 102.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

You ohko choiced with Ice Beam
+1 0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 318-376 (108.5 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What if SpD Custap
0 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 212 SpD Haxorus: 166-196 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
20+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 92-108 (32.2 - 37.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
+4 20+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 8 HP / 128 Def Genesect: 276-324 (96.8 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

I find the fact that this is losable at all very silly.

+1 252+ Atk Genesect X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Haxorus: 220-261 (61.7 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This 2hkos if you get the atk boost, but like, still risks a random counter.

So smth like spd custap even without reversal just ends up randomly adding a couple rolls and set-guessing for like, no reason???
Anyway back to Genesect
Max atk for best rolls
+1 252+ Atk Genesect X-Scissor vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Meloetta: 380-450 (97.1 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Genesect Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 361-425 (96.7 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Genesect Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 323-380 (100.6 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Shadow Claw helps vs Jelli & Chandy
Fly ohkos Volc, but is more predictable into endure sets (also good vs max max keld)
Iron Head is cheese + Aerodactyl
Thunderbolt for Gyara
Flamethrower for Meta mostly
I will always recommend Ice Beam more for Haxorus meta.


:meloetta: :meloetta-pirouette: I love pirouetta.
Pirouette being viable rocks, tho having a 20% chance to just kinda win most mus is pretty silly.

I don't have much to add, mon is hard to manage. It doesn't have a lot of consistent answers that can't be finessed or bulked somehow. Even without that, specs, gems and Pirouette already have a lot of bandwidth.


:tornadus: subtox good.
Tornadus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 160 HP / 16 SpA / 164 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Heat Wave
- Toxic

Sacrifices consistency vs mons like Meloetta and Keld for lefties and a better gene mu.
252+ SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 160 HP / 164 SpD Tornadus: 214-254 (63.1 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Genesect Quick Attack vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 68-81 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO

Has rolls that lose vs SpD Scarf.


:zapdos: My goat.
Electric types are good. Zapdos glued a lot of my teams together, having a solid water+genesect answer when needed helped a lot. Combined with its pressure stall sets it can take out a large chunk of sets. Has plenty of small customizability, SpD Toxic, Physdef Specs, Jaboca, Full Stall and my favorite
Anti Hax* (Zapdos) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Heat Wave
- Hyper Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Flying]

Sacrifice all reliable defensive benchmarks for big beam propaganda.
252+ SpA 30 IVs Choice Specs Zapdos Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 350-412 (98.5 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Now of course this does not really work as a reliable Haxorus answer, but i sure thought it was good enough when i built it.
SpD Haxorus cannot hurt you if it does not exist.


:darmanitan: 252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Meloetta: 414-487 (105.8 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


:crustle: The most cheesable mon in 1v1.
There aren't many meta mons that can't finesse a win out of standard Rock Gem. Just kinda resulting in a pokemon that isn't super comfortable to use and isn't super hard to beat imo. Maybe we just need more Sitrus Berries in our diet. Bulky Band is prolly its best set atm, made more imposing by rock gem sets existing.
Crustle @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 4 Def / 216 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Wrecker
- Rock Blast
- X-Scissor
- Counter / Earthquake

Lives Volcarona Overheat + Jaboca Chip
252+ SpA Volcarona Overheat vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Crustle: 255-300 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKOz

36+ Atk Choice Band Crustle Rock Blast (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Charti Berry Volcarona: 378-450 (101.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lives hax band outrage (no reason not to really, can ignore it for 20 more atk evs.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Crustle: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


:spiritomb: It's usable!!!!!
Its primary niche over something like Sableye is a better Crustle mu, which is honestly kinda it. I'm still mad about infiltrator being hypertrash this gen (it does not bypass substitute). Being immune to Fighting, Normal and Psychic moves just gives you a lot of good mus into that part of the meta.
Lucia (Spiritomb) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play
- Pain Split
- Taunt

It's max max waow
252+ Atk Rock Gem Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Rock Gem Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 280-331 (92.1 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (sableye can finesse with subs but needs to play 50/50s a lot more.) aka it sucks, spiritomb supremacy.

Can also go for a more offensive spread with sucker punch, like dark gem seems workable, but this feels generally the most useful especially in terms of realizing its niche.

Overall thoughts, meta is fun to build until you think about certain mons too much. I would like to see Haxorus gone, actually taking into account everything it can reasonably do is overwhelming.

Ramblings may or may not continue at a later date.
IC out~
 
Last edited:
1754938840192.png

nonmainer thoughts on ss
list is mostly mons id load + mons that exert a lot of pressure(zolt, vish, gdarm) or are a pain to deal w in the builder(chansey, pz, etc)
The top 5 is ordered but close, I think there's a p big falloff from gdarm to the rest of the pokemon imo
Item wise I mainly used boosting items(choice, lorb) and some custap/av, but I think running custap can often devolve into 50/50s(ie ferro v gdarm) and I'd rather not turn the game into that. Also why i ran a lot more band crustle > smash crustle bc I dont need to play the guessing game vs prim/canion etc

Indiv mon thoughts:
Watershifu is really good, custap sucks this gen but life orb/band are super solid while weakness policy can flip mus like bulu zera. I brought a bulky band w/ tpunch for canion too.
Aroma often just gets free 2-1s, especially spdef. Also healer is a really funny alternative option for swap cress since no one would ever click taunt/encore on it
Zolt > Vish, zolt just is really good into the fairies and lorb is really underrated. You nuke metagross and are more reliable into prim and custap sylv aswell. Scarf is still the best to get spectrier/nonhaban chomp/zapdos. The only knock against it is that you have to hit 80% accurate moves :(.
Hexpult is a demon and also I can't believe i loaded anti-zera pult like 3 times this tour. Beating most of the steels w/ wisphex is super cool and also trying to answer band+specspult asw on teams was a nightmare
Lando-t is a really nice alternative to chomp, av is probably my least fav set but bulk up/sd sets and cb are really really good. This mon can also be disgustingly bulky and live shit like 252+ meta ice punch or even cb rhyp ice punches.
Koko is a fraud actually
drago is a bit reliant on custap but still decent to just force 50/50s(also people just dont actually expect you to click it i swear)
Chansey is degen and half of my teams i just pretended that custap shifu beat it
Zera i've warmed up on over tour. Still don't like how av is needed to get reliable mus but this mon can do a lot surprisingly
togekiss is down there purely because it never felt like the best fairy to load. Ik babiri counter is cool but honestly i never felt too scared of it in the builder
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Atk / 224 Def / 16 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulldoze
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Knock Off
252+ meta, also randomly a 6.3 to live comp rhyperior ice punch

emily (Bewear) @ Choice Band
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 92 HP / 192 Atk / 216 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch
- Giga Impact
- Drain Punch
landoi ep + gdarm iirc

Porygon-Z @ Chople Berry
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 152 HP / 124 Def / 88 SpA / 4 SpD / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
- Agility
- Hyper Beam
av cc from zera w/o berry, nonspecs canion overheat

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 164 HP / 184 Atk / 160 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Thunder Punch
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
mishlef bandshifu


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 160 HP / 60 Atk / 232 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat
- Surging Strikes
- Counter / Poison Jab
bandzera, counter for hax n bandchomp

Zeraora @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 80 HP / 60 Atk / 248 Def / 120 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Plasma Fists
- Outrage
bandchomp, spe for scarf meta(NOTE: does lose to bandmeta but otherwise u just bulk x2 and ko w knock)

Waow (Sylveon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 184 HP / 128 Def / 184 SpA / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Laser Focus
- Hyper Voice
- Hyper Beam
lorb rapid, eleki
laser focus for swap cress which wasnt loaded NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 40 HP / 244 Def / 224 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
Either av azu pr jet or like at a point where the roll is suffienctly low
 
Let’s remove species clause in all gens! The generation of 1v1ers who were annoyingly conservative about banning / unbanning anything has basically disappeared at this point, so I feel like we can finally do this if we can commit to it!

The most common argument I see against removing species clause is the “the meta is fine with it” argument. This shouldn’t be the precedent that we set for tiering, because clearly the meta would also be fine without it as well. ORAS has had no problems with no species clause, and it’s been not there since its inception. There’s no reason why this wouldn’t be true in any other gen.

Also, removing species clause has a practical application in SS. We’d finally be able to use Zapdos + Zapdos-Galar, which are clearly two unique Pokemon.

I request that Mishlef add a question about removing species clause to the tiering survey and link to this post, and that any other gens (other than ORAS) which are making tiering surveys do the same. No reason not to!

Let me use 3 Dragonites in my SM friendlies!
 
The most common argument I see against removing species clause is the “the meta is fine with it” argument.
this has a purely negative effect on the meta. triples are never viable but are uncompetitive, turning previews into a vibes game of how zany you think your opp got in builder when picking lures. its particularly stupid for stuff like sm dnite and sv ival that have extremely high "tech ceilings" and are mainly limited by the weaknesses of their individual sets.

i haven't really seen many games with doubles but i can't imagine it doing anything to the game of 1v1 except make builds that rely on setreading the given threat less weighable without being particularly builder-skill expressive on the double-user end.

We’d finally be able to use Zapdos + Zapdos-Galar, which are clearly two unique Pokemon.
this is the most convincing case for species clause (since iirc "forms" lack a standardizable definition and thus form clause cant be used) but its still pretty flop since none of the new combinations are actually viable and would have 0 meta effect. the double zap core sounds cool until you spend 5 seconds thinking and realize your third has to beat zera, pult and drago at the same time (ss teams that need to cover these 3 with their third always end up terrible). also while not impossible, beating spectrier and gdarm becomes really painful and forces some awful sets from both zapdos and gadpos.
the other "cores" r like rotom wash and rotom heat? lol

this just seems like one of those calls people make because they are bored. Just suck it up and load tapu fini metagross filler until the end of time.

pqs reply guy out.
 
Last edited:
this has a purely negative effect on the meta. triples are never very viable but are very uncompetitive, turning previews into a vibes game of how zany you think your opp got in builder when picking lures. its particularly stupid for stuff like sm dnite and sv ival that have extremely high "tech ceilings" and are mainly limited by the weaknesses of their individual sets.
Honestly, I'm with pqs on removing species clause. Like, the main "problem" is that its just the same mon over and over again, but think about if for a second. If NO SINGLE MON can beat the 3 variants of it, then either the mon is a problem, or the mon has a lot of versatility.

Example: Valiant v Metagross. Metagross consistently beats Valiant due to Meteor Mash/Heavy Slam + Bullet Punch. Even in the event of Trick or Babiri Berry, Valiant's variants consistently lose to the likes of 252 HP Metagross.
Specs: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Metagross: 288-340 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Band: 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 278-328 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jolly Swords Dance: +2 252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
^ The problem here would be that Meteor Mash > Bullet Punch OHKOs. And even if that doesn't, Heavy Slam > Bullet Punch surely does. If they bulk out the move combo, they dont have enough attack to compensate.
There are other examples as well. Like for example, a niche option like Lokix consistently beats Hoopa-Unbound due to First Impression. Even if they're Custap, Lokix has Sucker Punch, which isnt much of a flaw thanks to the goated ability known as Tinted Lens. And if you argue that "That mon's sole purpose is beating ... it's not good enough to warrant usage lol", it can beat other things. Every mon has a set that beats more than 1 mon.
Life Orb Lokix: 252+ Atk Life Orb Lokix First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tanga Berry Hoopa-Unbound: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Hoopa-Unbound (Max Atk): 252+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lokix: 258-304 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Hoopa-Unbound (Max Sp. Atk): 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lokix: 283-334 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
^ The issue here is that Lokix is faster than Hoopa, and if they had say, Protect... well so does Lokix. And if it really wanted to, it could use Sub or Endure to proc like a Liechi Berry. Hoopa cant afford to not run bulky Tanga Berry on a Lorb Lokix with First Impression, and even still, they gotta outbulk the likes of Leech Life too. Or god forbid Lokix has Lunge and you went physical.

Bottom line is, Lokix is beating you.
crow crumbs replying to pqs' claim of Zapdos + Zapdos-Galar as a legal combo:
this is the most convincing case for species clause (since iirc "forms" lack a standardizable definition and thus form clause cant be used) but its still pretty flop since none of the new combinations are actually viable and would have 0 meta effect. the double zap core sounds cool until you spend 5 seconds thinking and realize your third has to beat zera, pult and drago at the same time (ss teams that need to cover these 3 with their third always end up terrible). also while not impossible, beating spectrier and gdarm becomes really painful and forces some awful sets from both zapdos and gadpos.
the other "cores" r like rotom wash and rotom heat? lol
Ursaluna and its Bloodmoon form exist. They are 2 drastically different mons. One's a physical attacker, one's a special attacker. Both of them are equally threatening. Currently Bloodmoon is considered C tier and regular Ursaluna is B or A tier, some even considering as S tier. This is definitely a way you can alter the species clause in a tier shifting way. Well okay not tier shifting, but it definitely messes with team preview having to cover regular AND Bloodmoon Ursaluna.
this just seems like one of those calls people make because they are bored. Just suck it up and load tapu fini metagross filler until the end of time.
one liner but would prefer the oras survey whenever also asks about whether its players really want species clause, triple zard triple gren etc was never really cool and you just didn't have any interesting decision to make with your click vs them
It's boring. Yes, I get that. But at the same time, I do feel like a removal of species clause can open up new possibilities... in different aspects.

For example, are you able to cover the possible sets of the mon? Do mons gain or lose viability based on doubling or tripling down on them? Are mons more or less banworthy based on this logic? It might be unfun to play WITH species clause a non-factor, but it does actually open the door for more options.

"Like what, spamming more of the same mon? ORAS having the capacity for triple Greninja isn't exactly fun"
^ To this and arguments similar to the topic of fun: It adds more of a surprise factor to 1v1. I'd love to get into ORAS to see what species clause really does to the tier, but I absolutely LOVE having teambuilding options. So what if the click isn't fun? You only really have 9 MU options in the preview, so the "fun" there could arguably be equally as non enjoyable. Seeing unorthodox mons or NFEs, or fighting a mon with a tech for yours---that's the fun of 1v1. Adding more copies of 1 particular Pokemon as an option to consider doesn't change this much imo.

At the end of the day, I'm not most people. I think species clause should be lifted on the fundemental principles I consider to be involved in 1v1: Bring 3, Pick 1. It's a format where 9 potential MUs can be flipped on their heads or decided before either player even clicks an attack. But I try to understand everyone's argument as much as I can. I actually hate debating because it goes against the idea of having an opinion. Even if subjective, even if wrong, it's what someone agrees on. And I understand people believe species clause mitigates the overall fun of the 1v1 experience. I respect it.

So take this as you will. My stance is that species clause opens up variety because of the versatility in the sets of a mon, and being able to beat all 3 of them and even those variants I consider to be crucial in determining if a mon is oppressive. Every team can be 3-0d. A team that hasn't veen 3-0d is a team that hasn't been made. If it can't be 3-0d as a mon, then maybe it's better than people give it credit for. Do remember Krookodile had usage in SS 1v1 because it beat Necrozma. Glastrier beat Regidrago, and was tiered on the SV 1v1 rankings. Both instances a mon was banned, and both instances a mon was viable because they could beat a consistent powerhouse of the tier.
You don't have to agree. But, at the bare minimum, consider the other side of the species clause coin.
 
this has a purely negative effect on the meta. triples are never viable but are uncompetitive, turning previews into a vibes game of how zany you think your opp got in builder when picking lures. its particularly stupid for stuff like sm dnite and sv ival that have extremely high "tech ceilings" and are mainly limited by the weaknesses of their individual sets.
I already argued this on discord but I’ll say it here: you don’t need three of the same Pokemon to add insane sets on each of them—what’s stopping me from running stall MMeta, Firium Dnite, and Conversion Electric Porygon-Z and giving my opponent an absolute stroke on preview trying to read the sets? As with 3 Dragonites, the team would have insane holes and fall under the category of “uncompetitive” but honestly be even more viable than 3 Dragonites because of the type variety and the high tech ceilings. Just because you can have multiple of the same Pokemon doesn’t mean that they’re automatically harder to read and play against that any other type of team.

this is the most convincing case for species clause (since iirc "forms" lack a standardizable definition and thus form clause cant be used) but its still pretty flop since none of the new combinations are actually viable and would have 0 meta effect. the double zap core sounds cool until you spend 5 seconds thinking and realize your third has to beat zera, pult and drago at the same time (ss teams that need to cover these 3 with their third always end up terrible). also while not impossible, beating spectrier and gdarm becomes really painful and forces some awful sets from both zapdos and gadpos.
the other "cores" r like rotom wash and rotom heat? lol
It’s VERY unhealthy to have the mindset of “why should we unban this” instead of “why is this banned.” Not to take it to the extreme but for the sake of the argument some (shitty) council could ban all LC mons and then future players would make the same argument that there’s no benefit to unbanning them, so they should stay banned, when there’s clearly something very wrong with that.
one liner but would prefer the oras survey whenever also asks about whether its players really want species clause, triple zard triple gren etc was never really cool and you just didn't have any interesting decision to make with your click
For one I’d be much more interested seeing someone get smoked by a hilarious Greninja set on a triple Gren team in a tour game, much more than seeing games where 2 mons on each side are the same and then the third mon on each shares a type (cough cough SS)… But “interest” and “coolness” are extremely subjective terms anyways…
 
Last edited:
what’s stopping me from running stall MMeta, Firium Dnite, and Conversion Electric Porygon-Z and giving my opponent an absolute stroke on preview trying to read the sets?
this honestly reads like an attack on the tier itself lol. yes, even given the assumption that your opponent built the best team possible, you cant properly account for every set possibility. however each mon has their own set of counters and limits to capabilities that guarantees a preview will be dynamic. to illustrate i will use a pretty standard sm build to compare previews:

:zygarde::mawile-mega::naganadel: vs. stall MMeta, Firium Dnite, and Conversion Electric Porygon-Z
-naga soft 3-0s
-mawile covers scarf pz which is the most obvious stop to a naga 3-0, also favorable into pz and dnite
-zygarde covers spdef meta and weird sets that are fittable here like zfire dnite or fire conversion pz
this isn't exhaustive but theres a lot of hard facts about the preview to start basing reads on, even if you could never realistically predict stall meta

:zygarde::mawile-mega::naganadel: vs. :dragonite::dragonite::dragonite:
-you go mawile into the scarf one or you go naga. zygarde is clickable depending on how stupid you think your opponents is willing to get w/ sets when building a triple.
theres no real inherent differentiation because what each mon can do is obsufcated by the design of the build. therefore the dnite user can't really discern what the opponent is thinking either. it makes the game !pick for both sides.

It’s VERY unhealthy to have the mindset of “why should we unban this” instead of “why is this banned.” Not to take it to the extreme but for the sake of the argument some (shitty) council could ban all LC mons and then future players would make the same argument that there’s no benefit to unbanning them, so they should stay banned, when there’s clearly something very wrong with that.
not really. the onus to prove a change is worth making is always on those who want to move away from the status quo. theres no real metagame shifts brought by banning or unbanning every lc mon but no one would argue theres any potential harmful effects. in my post, i said the positive effects are unimportant while the negative effects just make the tier slightly worse. so therefore, theres no reason to take it.

changes should require better reasoning than "the tier would still be playable." you can say that people blew oras blazikens viability out of proportion when that argument was going on - true, but what did the tier actually gain? not really anything (besides me getting put on a smogon youtube short O_O ). imo there really wasn't anything unhealthy about how the community processession went and the concerns over adding another fishy techlord into oras were pretty valid. freeing darkrai was less controversial(?) and actually had a metagame impact when zard was around too.

edit - was talking about normal blaziken, forgot mega was freed later and mixed them up
 
Last edited:
Back
Top