Separating cheesers from the biggest cheeser itself is quite funny honestly.
Like, isn't a Pokémon with 6-7 viable different Teras, Encore, recovery, set up and every coverage ever the most cheesy thing ever? XD
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Like, isn't a Pokémon with 6-7 viable different Teras, Encore, recovery, set up and every coverage ever the most cheesy thing ever? XD
depends on what you think is "cheese", i guess. personally i think the only cheesy part of dragonite is how easy it is to set up with multiscale. i don't think the fact that it has coverage or multiple tera types or encore is cheesy at all, that's just the sort of thing you gotta watch out for when you're fighting against one of the five billion setup goons we have here. the ridiculous tankiness making it so easy to set up multiple dragon dances, especially with recovery, does have a definite cheesy flavor to it, but i wouldn't call it the cheesiest thing in the meta
of course there is the kind of inherent background cheesiness of tera blast and tera in general, but i can't really blame dragonite for that, it's just the way this gen is
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Tera Blast will remain legal given council consensus — more here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tera-blast-in-sv-ou.3768288/page-2#post-10679082
Would it make sense to create a Showdown ladder when the game is confirmed to be free and everyone has access to either a phone or Switch?
not that this is super relevant to ou but yes, it does make sense to make a champions ladder. showdown's likely to still have advantages over champions (speed tooltips, hp percentages, faster building/battling, better timer, offering ties, /dt commands, etc), so it's almost certain that some people will still want to play the format on showdown instead of the game itself. it's also a possibility that future gens won't have pvp on cartridge and it'll all be on champions from now on, in which case we'd have to implement champions-based ladders starting with gen 10 whether we had one already or not, so i figure we might as well get a head start on that. of course, we don't have enough concrete info to actually make a decision and the decision isn't mine to make anyway, this is just my personal opinion
with that said, we're getting a little off track here, so let's get back to ou-related discussion with a couple open-ended questions:
- what's your favorite tech or meta development that has emerged during olt?
- what's your least favorite tech or meta development that has emerged during olt?
- now that action on tera blast is out of the picture for the time being, what do you think the next move is likely to be tiering-wise?
- what tiering action would you most like to see that's still on the table? (note: dropping/retesting ubers is not on the table without overwhelming demand)
- if you were handed total control over svou right now, without having to worry about policy or public opinion or any sort of constraints on what you could do with it (besides "no modding"), but you could make only 3 changes, what would you do?
Probably a woger suspect because there’s a lot of discussion about it being too much for the tier
1. Tornadus-T Specs on the Storm Zone's Sand team is really cool.
2. Rillaboom. I dislike making progress with something that gives the opponent passive recovery.
3. With Tera Blast temporarily off-target, targeting the current best user (Dragonite) seems like the way to go.
4. Ogerpon-Wellspring is at its peak and without Dragonite it could become even more unstoppable.
5. In my dictatorship; 1 Gholdengo would be deleted from the showdown codes, 2 Kingambit would be banned, and 3 would be a swap between Crowned and Hero Zamazenta.
I admittedly didn't pay much attention to OLT so I will just answer the last 3.
I think the most likely tiering action with tera blast being done is ever going to either be a Dragonite or Wogerpon discussion.
I personally don't think anything is actually broken at the current moment so yeah.
1. Unban sleep moves (and add sleep clause back).
2. Ban Darkrai and maybe Iron Valiant.
3. Forcibly make Walking Wake UU.
Those are some pretty hot takes.
1. No, Sleep was always a ridiculous status and sleeping a mon in SV OU was like getting a KO. Sleep Clause was basically an arbitrary complex nerf to Sleep, and Sleep Clause wouldn't be made in modern day Smogon.
2. Darkrai isn't even a Top 10 mon, and Iron Valiant isn't an issue for any team archetype.
3. Walking Wake is a fine OU mon with specific strengths albeit not very splashable.
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I do not understand cgou/new gen players who defend sleep clause. At least old gens have the excuse of existing with it for years upon years and removing it would probably require a bunch of tiering action that they just don't have the player base to sustain, and a lot of folks are not interested in updating them and want to play the fossilized meta as close as possible (except for things they dont like). But current gen ou? brother that shit should have been removed in day 1 sv.
literally explain to me how "sleep is ok as long as we put one of the most insane restrictions you could ever put on a status that also wouldn't work in cartridge even with the usual impartial judge bullshit we use for most of our qol clauses" is something that should be in place in 2025 and not laughed at. what is this stubborness with keeping a defanged, fangame-y sleep around? what insane groundbreaking benefit is sleep going to bring to sv ou that can justify bringing back a 1999 stadium mode?
i dont care if you think it makes the meta better, you could make the meta better by imposing any kind of stupid restrictions on any number of aspects of the game. lets mod out the full paralysis out of the game. lets turn freeze into frostbite from legend arceus. i was gonna make a joke akin to "lets bring back chien pao but it can only use moves with 60 bp or lower", but that stupid strawman joke is more realistic than sleep clause because you at least can justify it by someone getting disqualified if they pull out an ice spinner, no game mechanic mods required
i know this is probably a rather mean comment to give for someones offhanded remark but its less about one person and how i see the sentiment that the sleep ban was a mistake because darkrai should have been banned instead or iron valiant or just whatever argument acting like sleep clause isnt a mess by itself regardless of whatever pokemon exists in a meta. if it took darkrai for people to realize how outdated the whole thing was then so be it. you can ban darkrai if its really a problem or whatever but for the love of god do not bring back sleep clause
literally explain to me how "sleep is ok as long as we put one of the most insane restrictions you could ever put on a status that also wouldn't work in cartridge even with the usual impartial judge bullshit we use for most of our qol clauses" is something that should be in place in 2025 and not laughed at. what is this stubborness with keeping a defanged, fangame-y sleep around? what insane groundbreaking benefit is sleep going to bring to sv ou that can justify bringing back a 1999 stadium mode?
i dont care if you think it makes the meta better, you could make the meta better by imposing any kind of stupid restrictions on any number of aspects of the game. lets mod out the full paralysis out of the game. lets turn freeze into frostbite from legend arceus. i was gonna make a joke akin to "lets bring back chien pao but it can only use moves with 60 bp or lower", but that stupid strawman joke is more realistic than sleep clause because you at least can justify it by someone getting disqualified if they pull out an ice spinner, no game mechanic mods required
i know this is probably a rather mean comment to give for someones offhanded remark but its less about one person and how i see the sentiment that the sleep ban was a mistake because darkrai should have been banned instead or iron valiant or just whatever argument acting like sleep clause isnt a mess by itself regardless of whatever pokemon exists in a meta. if it took darkrai for people to realize how outdated the whole thing was then so be it. you can ban darkrai if its really a problem or whatever but for the love of god do not bring back sleep clause
i did say no modding. sleep clause mod counts as modding, so if you want sleep unbanned in this theoretical scenario you've gotta live with it unclaused
ok fine this one i'll allow
i'm actually going to defend this because it would only be done after unbanning sleep. obviously they're not problems right now, but with sleep back in the mix, darkrai and valiant would once again become bullshit gamblemons that i would have no problem getting rid of. of course unbanning sleep would be absurd but this is a perfectly logical follow-up to it
Not too keyed into the Office League Tourney, so I can't answer 1 or 2.
3: My thoughts are either Wellspring Ogerpon, mostly due to the vibrant discussion surrounding it, or Ting-Lu if/when the Woger action is shelved/enacted because, though I don't fully subscribe to the "TingZapPex" iirc school of thought, it is still a tremendous wall capable of putting in work, and we all know Kingambit and Gholdengo aren't getting banned any time soon.
4: I know you said it'd take overwhelming demand for an unban, but I just can't think of anything I'd actually want banned in OU rn.
5: Unban Volcarona, Unban Lugia, and Unban Terapagos-Terastal. One Offense- and two Defensive-statted mons. I can admit that OU tends towards offense.
1. Rise of Rillaboom and Heatran; I think they and what they bring are very healthy additions to the meta.
2. Rise of Tornados; While an early believer of the Assault Vest set, I generally can't see the fat Nasty Plot sets being a good addition to this meta.
3. Getting rid of its most notorious abusers :dragonite: :kyurem: :kingambit:
4. Ogerpon-Wellspring suspect
5. If I didn't have 3 wishes only, I would have a very different answer that could possibly revamp the tier as I do not like how it is going right now. But since I only have 3 ,I will make the most of them:
A. Unban Medium-Sized Terapagos; We really need more anti-offense tools in this meta and I think this one is about as justified as Zamazenta.
B. Ban Deoxys-speed, Darkrai and Iron Valiant; While I do not find these inherently broken, I do find the over-saturation of offensive threats very overwhleming to build for, especially for balance, and excluding the mons already on radar, these 3 are the ones I am most willing to let go of.
C. Ban Malignant Chain; While I find Pecharunt a very healthy pokemon for this meta, and while malignant chain is a big part of that as it scares away many offensive threats that would otherwise try to get past it with sheer force or setup.
Yet, despite all of that, I find a move that it's main gimmick is an unguranteed spread of confusion to be way too RNG-based for me to find it competitive.
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fwiw HP% display is actually part of Champions.
Which is nice because people can finally stop bad faith arguing about it being a mod (it's technically not, calculators and public knowledge rules exist).
My 3 wishes:
1. Ban Gholdengo.
2. Tossing a coin. If heads, Ban Waterpon. If tails, unban Archaludon.
3. Ban Gliscor.
Honorable mentions: Full BP Unban (If people cry too much,Dry Pass allowed is enough), Ban Spikes + Rocks on same team (Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge not affected), and Ban Daddy Buzzwole (he is not legal in Paldea).
1. Ban Gholdengo.
2. Tossing a coin. If heads, Ban Waterpon. If tails, unban Archaludon.
3. Ban Gliscor.
Honorable mentions: Full BP Unban (If people cry too much,Dry Pass allowed is enough), Ban Spikes + Rocks on same team (Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge not affected), and Ban Daddy Buzzwole (he is not legal in Paldea).
This post was written by Hisuian Samurott.
I think the sleep ban, while controversial, has aged well and rid the metagame of an issue that otherwise could have lingered.
Whoops I forgot/didn't realize sleep clause counted as modding lol.
My problem with the sleep ban is less that it was banned (though I do still wish it was unbanned) and more about how it actually came about. The problem for me is the fact that it was banned by council vote. I feel like as big of a deal as a full sleep ban was it should have been a suspect. It doesn't make sense to argue it as being a quick ban either as Darkrai had already existed for over a month in OU and Iron Valiant had access to Hypnosis long before that. I would be less upset if sleep had been suspected tested instead of just voted on by the council. It isn't like there was no support for a suspect test either, so I don't get why they did it that way.
i think council vote was the correct decision because everything else would be a waste of time or just not how things should work. sleep clause shouldnt exist and doesnt deserve a suspect thread where people can argue for its existence, and i find it hard to see a world where unrestricted sleep isnt insanely broken and meta warping
What like the 2 Kyurem suspects with the second one having literal cheaters that caused Kyurem to be banned for 2 weeks? How is that not a waste of time while a sleep suspect would be? What is wrong with wanting to defend something you don't believe is broken? Sleep clearly wasn't broken enough to be quickbanned when Darkrai fell to OU so why was a suspect not warranted? Idk I just think not allowing the community to vote on this was a mistake.
The fact sleep had to have a mod not available on cart is testament alone to how broken it was. You really don't need a test to find out something that warranted changing the game mechanics with its restriction removed would be ridiculous.
That being said; I have to ask whether the extended game timer should even be allowed under those very same circumstances... the sim is essentially modding out the 20 minute timer 6v6 on cart is forced to use (which there isn't a way around it) and the animations themselves contributing to it is also difficult to replicate without some weird timer skip specification end of each turn calculated off how long an animation plays. Having the timer means the sleep mod wasn't as unique and removing the sleep mod sets precedent on how 'accurate' the sim has to be. It sucks dick so frankly not complaining but wondering where the line in the sand is precisely.
??? suspecting a controversial pokemon is not a waste of time, even if the answer is dnb? also were we supposed to know that the second one was gonna have a scandal with our clairvoyance powers and thus not do it in the first place or something.
youre comparing one pokemon thats polarizing (extremely common thing to happen in a meta) to a status so broken we have never even thought of playing it without a disgusting nerfing clause for 20+ years. kyurem is not even the most polarizing pokemon that ou had, let alone anything close in brokenness to unrestricted sleep
The friendly match option has 60 minute timers. If you watch the Draft League videos, you'll see the timers are 60 minutes. I don't know why people still think it's only 20
posting before olt cycle is over so its seen as less reactionary but with the tera blast policy post not getting traction I think its time we consider looking into dnite. I think this is pretty self explanatory? The mon just has too many sets to account for in builder. Unlike something like gambit with a similar ish amount of sets, dnites counterplay varies quite drastically depending on its utility, tera and attacks. While on preview you can super sleuth it down to a few options theres still a lot of variables that can cause it to run away with games or force an insane amount of progress even if you don't exactly missplay into it. You can throw the "4mss" argument at this sure but it can work to dnites benefit quite often with trying to predict utility options like roost or encore and dropping to something else. You can probably sit in the OLT room and spectate for like an hour and come out with 3 or 4 replays at least of dnite cheesing through otherwise lost games by outright winning or forcing progress. And honestly, in builder it just feels like youre accepting to lose to certain sets a lot because committing tools for every variation is just unrealistic in this tier. just wanted to bring this up since its a aspect of the tier I currently dont find fun and is probably a more productive conversation post OLT into SCL than whatever this sleep cause convo is.