Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[TheTraininator]

My opinionated ass forcing myself to stay out of Terapagos discussion knowing it’s not going to go anywhere and just risk getting me in trouble:

I believe Hisuian Samurott has a ton of set potential that a lot of people have yet to truly unpack. Given the raw utility of its defensive typing and options like Taunt/Encore, there's a lot of ways that you can enable Hisuian Samurott itself to click Ceaseless Edge more freely while also providing a ton of utility to your team. I talk about why Hisuian Samurott is underutilized in my latest YouTube video!

What do you think of Hisuian Samurott in the current metagame? What are your favorite sets?

Click to collapse...

I’ve long believed Hisuian Samurott to be an insanely versatile and flexible threat that tends to be pidgeonholed into just running sash Ceaseless lead sets because it’s the easiest way to build it. A set I’ve pushed for a long time is Banded because people don’t expect it to be utilized like a breaker and can play sloppy around it, giving it the ability to unexpectedly smash through defensive cores with a deceptively strong dual-STAB and priority access. It also has a lot of underutilized utility buttons though like Taunt, Encore, Flip Turn for momentum, and even Copycat to duplicate other hazards.

 

[CodeFour]

I'm gonna go ahead and collect some haha reacts here. My thoughts, my recommendation going forward.

Im not alone in finding the game the most fun when there's new releases or changes right?

All users here have some idea of what would make the game "better". Often it's against smogon dogma for some reason. Fine.

I would like to see some outlet for trying these hypothetical metas played out. And I think everyone would appreciate it. I think a ladder with seasonal changes, without the goal actually being the pursuit of the purest smogon singles meta possible.

It would be fun. I'm most looking forward to Champions for the seasonal changes. I think Smogon could do it better...

It would also give us data to work with instead of theorymoning things currently not experienced.

Some "seasons" of 2 months or so could be silly, never to possible impact OU. It would generate conversations at times though. Is that so undesirable if kept in an isolation thread?

Naturally I just want to see a meta of no tera blast with some additions. But it could be also to run a no booster season. Or a baton pass season. No sleep ban. Terapagos. Solgaleo.

You get the idea. If council just keeps the line in it not dictating their movements I think it would be a positive, fun thing to do.

And when Solgaleo or similar comes up the data can be cited in response as either it was nuts during the seasonal ladder or yeah it was pretty balanced with a vague "were looking at it"

Respectfully

 

[FayaWizard]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

 

[JackRG]

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

Click to collapse...

TR is undoubtedly the best its ever been thanks to the addition of ursaluna, but I think it will always remain niche. Definitely viable at high levels of play, but I think this user qualifying is more a reflection of their own skill as a player rather than Trick room actually being super good.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

on my hands and knees praying someone works some form of magic with glastrier because i love it so much and i do not think it's fair one of the horses wound up beign so busted it ended up being banned to ubers twice and the other is like some zu tier shitmon

 

[Insolence]

I'm gonna go ahead and collect some haha reacts here. My thoughts, my recommendation going forward.

Im not alone in finding the game the most fun when there's new releases or changes right?

All users here have some idea of what would make the game "better". Often it's against smogon dogma for some reason. Fine.

I would like to see some outlet for trying these hypothetical metas played out. And I think everyone would appreciate it. I think a ladder with seasonal changes, without the goal actually being the pursuit of the purest smogon singles meta possible.

It would be fun. I'm most looking forward to Champions for the seasonal changes. I think Smogon could do it better...

It would also give us data to work with instead of theorymoning things currently not experienced.

Some "seasons" of 2 months or so could be silly, never to possible impact OU. It would generate conversations at times though. Is that so undesirable if kept in an isolation thread?

Naturally I just want to see a meta of no tera blast with some additions. But it could be also to run a no booster season. Or a baton pass season. No sleep ban. Terapagos. Solgaleo.

You get the idea. If council just keeps the line in it not dictating their movements I think it would be a positive, fun thing to do.

And when Solgaleo or similar comes up the data can be cited in response as either it was nuts during the seasonal ladder or yeah it was pretty balanced with a vague "were looking at it"

Respectfully

Click to collapse...

A big reason why we play CG OU is the competitiveness of the meta/ladder; if you've ever played lower tiers you know how long it can take to find a single game once you've reached the top of the ladder. Even in OU, you will often times chain queue into the same player when loading at high elo during off hours. Splitting the ladder (e.g., NatDex cannibalizing the OU playerbase) is a nonstarter due to this, and holding the test on the main ladder impacts metagame progress, as it takes time for major changes to spread. The ban of Moon wasn't fully felt until a month or two after its ban, with styles like Sun or Veil rising in popularity. Simultaneously, if we keep introducing or removing 'mons from the main metagame, we won't allow development to occur (see how the public perception of things like Wake or Kyurem changed over the course of their respective suspects).

There have been some attempts at doing these trials in older gens, like the SS No Boots tour, which had a pretty hefty prize pool, but most people just ended up just reusing teams, and the effects of the ban weren't really visible. There's too much inherent variance and hax in 'mons to analyze without a large sample size of games. The Champions seasonal model is the best approach, and I hope that's the direction we take once it releases (especially if the leaks about Gen 10 having no competitive mode are true).

 

[Hon07rial]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

Click to collapse...

There IS a full paste available now.
https://pokepast.es/f9ca480f93df3853
The team has been public for months and was even added to the OU room's /rfaq trickroom.

 

[TheTraininator]

TR is undoubtedly the best its ever been thanks to the addition of ursaluna, but I think it will always remain niche. Definitely viable at high levels of play, but I think this user qualifying is more a reflection of their own skill as a player rather than Trick room actually being super good.

Click to collapse...

What Trick Room truly needs is a powerful offensive bulky pivot that doubles as an abuser itself because its turn count is too restrictive in a singles context if the Pokémon that sets Trick Room up can’t also both effectively abuse it AND be able to float into other abusers to cover bad matchups. This is why Trick Room flourished when Magearna was legal in the tier since its Eject Pack Fleur Cannon set filled the exact niche that Trick Room so desperately craves, and there isn’t really any other Pokémon other than Magearna that can effectively replicate that. However, if ever there is one released, I betcha Trick Room may actually obtain stronger viability in singles. Ursaluna may be the best abuser Trick Room could ask for, but Trick Room was never hurting for good abusers.

 

[MRH1106]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

Click to collapse...

as THE trick room guy in question i personally think TR is pretty solid right now as long as you play well the main issues are people cteaming and not being able to read your opponent since TR generally relies on getting turns correct to get kills in time oh also my team is very public and anyone who wants the main paste as well as any of the other versions of it just go to /rfaq TR in OU chat ill also be posting a RMT explaining how to use the team and whatnot sometime soon (probably tomorrow)

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Click to collapse...

Just answer this and pin it somewhere bro;

Alright, I'll move the discussion elsewhere. Is there any threads that are OU specific unban/policy changes? Can't post about it here, and don't think i can post in policy review as it is OU specific

Click to collapse...

I don't get why you guys have no weenie hut junior's policy review for badgeless members to voice concerns or ideas then police them from suggesting anything in the only forum accessible+relevant to the metagame or act surprised when this happens. DMs do not suffice for public discussion and Chaos days should end the debate on that.

It would make your lives 10x easier to just have an dedicated location for new/badgeless members to shitpost at instead of this every weekend, next weekend you'll probably be saying the same thing when someone brings up unbanning fucking lugia or some shit.

7 members thought the topic wasn't trivial enough to discuss it with little to no debate, give them an accessible location to discuss it especially when the policy review thread itself used to close discussion was very much infact split/heavily leaning for the topic.

 

[Finchinator]

If you have problems with Terapagos, Tera tiering, or anything else that goes beyond the scope of this thread — which is intended for current metagame discussion — PM me. My PMs have been and will remain open to discussion of tiering.

I will happily relay what people have to say to the council if it’s noteworthy. I will happily go back-and-forth with you if there are points of contention or misunderstanding. I will at a minimum hear everyone out.

This thread is not for that. It is for discussion of the current metagame. Tiering of current metagame Pokemon can be discussed, too. Nothing more or less. Thanks

 

[CooolTrainer]

My 3 wishes:
1. Ban Gholdengo.
2. Tossing a coin. If heads, Ban Waterpon. If tails, unban Archaludon.
3. Ban Gliscor.

Honorable mentions: Full BP Unban (If people cry too much,Dry Pass allowed is enough), Ban Spikes + Rocks on same team (Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge not affected), and Ban Daddy Buzzwole (he is not legal in Paldea).

Click to collapse...

I not good, but I’ve found Gliscor pretty underwhelming lately with the amount of breakers and Corv running around. What set do you think is the most disruptive?

 

[Eeveeto]

I not good, but I’ve found Gliscor pretty underwhelming lately with the amount of breakers and Corv running around. What set do you think is the most disruptive?

Click to collapse...

Most people think its SD, but for me that one is kinda fine. Spikes punishes passive turns way too much however, and makes many Mons and strats straight up unviable. The fact that one of the best counterplays to that set is SD Gliscor doesnt help.

 

[Seraphyde]

it's been a while.

i figure the best way to come back is by detailing my opinions on the current meta:

• things are a lot better since roaring moon got the boot. there are still problematic elements, but i could, in theory, live with this being the final version of the meta. that said, there's tiering action i would very much like to see, however unrealistic it may be
• :kingambit: this guy is still a massive unaddressed problem and i refuse to let it slip into the background. all of its nominal answers fold like a cheap suit to some tera or other. it makes me sick
• :ogerpon-wellspring: please get rid of this thing. waterpon is so restrictive in builder it isn't even funny anymore. if i find myself slotting in tera grass on one more defensive mon and getting murked by uturn anyway i'm going to write an article about how the loyal three did nothing wrong. i don't even care if the suspect song is that stupid dream song about the mask, i just want her gone
• :dragonite: i'm not fully sure how i feel about dragonite. it's very very strong, it's got some dumb guess-my-set elements to it, and new tech has emerged that lets it beat a lot of its historical answers (not that there are many; this whole gen it's had only a handful of things that can consistently deal with it). but it seems like all of its new tech leans heavily on the surprise factor, and once a new dnite tech goes from niche to expected it becomes way easier to play around because it's a very linear mon. for example, i got completely dumpstered by that ghost tb/low kick set exactly one time and then never lost to it again, and i didn't have to change my team at all to address it, just the way i was playing. i would like to see a suspect on dnite, but i don't know how i would vote on it at this time
• :kyurem: i don't actually think this is that problematic at the moment but i'm still mad about the last suspect
• :gholdengo: listen. i will die on this hill. i don't think gholdengo is a healthy presence here, i think it makes the hazard game incredibly lopsided even with geezing being a thing now, and i firmly believe things would be better if it were gone
• :walking wake::enamorus: can we have a suspect to put these things in uu? what are they still hanging around here for. they're the new meowscarada
• tera blast: i could live with or without tera blast. i think it provides some nice elements and promotes diversity by giving coverage or good stab to stuff that needs it, but it's also objectively the defining factor in two bans at the absolute minimum and something like seven or eight at most and in principle it's kind of ridiculous that anything can get any coverage it wants. my biggest worry about suspecting it is that we'll get greedy and drop a bunch of brokens that no one asked for and the community will end up stockholm-syndromed into never getting rid of them. i would fully throw my weight behind a tera blast ban if and only if there's a clear plan of action laid out for what is happening after it, and only if that plan of action includes nothing being quickdropped besides regieleki. volc needs a test, gouging fire and roaring moon should be very low on the priority list, and espathra shouldn't even be considered

so that's my take on the current meta. what do you guys think are the biggest problems right now?

Click to collapse...

• :kingambit: I don't even necessarily disagree but the exact same thing can be said about Dnite but people keep glazing the fat fuck for some reason. Gambit is just as if not more one-dimensional and it only appears to be harder to deal with because it's a bit less predictable in practice, but frankly it cannot do as much as people say it can. Speaking of which
• :dragonite: I do not disagree that Dragonite techs can become expected but the issue is that at a certain point there's so many different techs arising that it now becomes impossible to fully expect all of them. You can only run into so many before you inevitably forget one of the ones that sniped you beforehand and end up getting sniped by it again. I guarantee that you will forget that TB Ghost/Low Kick is a thing and end up being gimped by it at least once before this year ends.
• :ogerpon-wellspring: If you are actually getting read on your Tera Grass by U-Turn variants, it's because you are making predictable plays. Don't really have much else to say. It is not that hard to kill.
• :gholdengo: listen. i will die on this hill. i think gholdengo is a healthy presence here, i think it makes the hazard game a lot better even with geezing being a thing now, and i firmly believe things would be worse if it were gone

 

[Hon07rial]

• :kingambit: I don't even necessarily disagree but the exact same thing can be said about Dnite but people keep glazing the fat fuck for some reason. Gambit is just as if not more one-dimensional and it only appears to be harder to deal with because it's a bit less predictable in practice, but frankly it cannot do as much as people say it can. Speaking of which
• :dragonite: I do not disagree that Dragonite techs can become expected but the issue is that at a certain point there's so many different techs arising that it now becomes impossible to fully expect all of them. You can only run into so many before you inevitably forget one of the ones that sniped you beforehand and end up getting sniped by it again. I guarantee that you will forget that TB Ghost/Low Kick is a thing and end up being gimped by it at least once before this year ends.
• :ogerpon-wellspring: If you are actually getting read on your Tera Grass by U-Turn variants, it's because you are making predictable plays. Don't really have much else to say. It is not that hard to kill.
• :gholdengo: listen. i will die on this hill. i think gholdengo is a healthy presence here, i think it makes the hazard game a lot better even with geezing being a thing now, and i firmly believe things would be worse if it were gone

Click to collapse...

Can you please elaborate on your Gholdengo point?
It is a unique opinion and I'm interested in hearing it out in detail.

 

[JackRG]

Can you please elaborate on your Gholdengo point?
It is a unique opinion and I'm interested in hearing it out in detail.

Click to collapse...

he's a troll, he's gone on record saying rapid spin should be banned lol.

So this isn't a one liner: What do people think about specs :dragapult: atm? I don't really see it much anymore, but I think it's still a strong set despite its hatred of :ting-lu: and :garganacl: due to its ability to outrun and threaten a ton of offensive guys while being able to abuse it's checks with uturn + hazards. Draco, shadow ball, and u turn are all must on specs sets obviously but I've been messing around with hex in the last slot, Its very dangerous late game once status has been spread and is particularly good at abusing non tera normal :gliscor:.

 

[Avira]

he's a troll, he's gone on record saying rapid spin should be banned lol.

So this isn't a one liner: What do people think about specs :dragapult: atm? I don't really see it much anymore, but I think it's still a strong set despite its hatred of :ting-lu: and :garganacl: due to its ability to outrun and threaten a ton of offensive guys while being able to abuse it's checks with uturn + hazards. Draco, shadow ball, and u turn are all must on specs sets obviously but I've been messing around with hex in the last slot, Its very dangerous late game once status has been spread and is particularly good at abusing non tera normal :gliscor:.

Click to collapse...

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Seraphyde's not a troll, just a very bad HO player who doesn't know how to make progress without easy hazards, which is one of the reasons he has at least on one occasion called Great Tusk banworthy 'cause of Rapid Spin and only wants mons that low ELO HO teams struggle against to be banned.

I believe Specs Dragapult is still a decent option especially since Draco Meteor is still a big threat to Garganacl unless it's Tera Fairy, but being Choice-locked can always be taken advantage of, especially since there are immunities to Dragapult's two STAB types. Additionally, a -2 Draco Meteor can be punished by so many mons, and in this really offensive meta, you don't really want to give any mon a free turn to set up, which is why Choiced mons aren't really that common this gen.

 

[JackRG]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Seraphyde's not a troll, just a very bad HO player who doesn't know how to make progress without easy hazards, which is one of the reasons he has at least on one occasion called Great Tusk banworthy 'cause of Rapid Spin and only wants mons that low ELO HO teams struggle against to be banned.

I believe Specs Dragapult is still a decent option especially since Draco Meteor is still a big threat to Garganacl unless it's Tera Fairy, but being Choice-locked can always be taken advantage of, especially since there are immunities to Dragapult's two STAB types. Additionally, a -2 Draco Meteor can be punished by so many mons, and in this really offensive meta, you don't really want to give any mon a free turn to set up, which is why Choiced mons aren't really that common this gen.

Click to collapse...

That would explain his bad Woger takes lmao, but yeah I think the draco drop is managable for a few reasons. Its actually still quite strong after a boost, and many offensive structures struggle to deal with specs shadow ball spam lategame, especially with tera ghost. Honestly I'd say the HO matchup is one of specs pult's best matchups, so long as you are careful about your choice locks.

 

[TheHalfAngel]

I don't have much experience but I think hazards are a good part of the meta, and one of the main things distinguishing it from VGC (please tell me if this is wrong/nonsensical) because I don't hear much about hazards there. I like hyper offense teams a lot, hazards are a big part of that. I also think that Rapid Spin is perfectly fair, as it's legitimate counterplay; you need to anticipate it because it's common.

 

[Alternator]

on my hands and knees praying someone works some form of magic with glastrier because i love it so much and i do not think it's fair one of the horses wound up beign so busted it ended up being banned to ubers twice and the other is like some zu tier shitmon

Click to collapse...

Full snow team, with veil support, and it's just unbreakable on the physical side - the problem is, so are many other bulky mons with veil support.

145 Attack looks promising, but you're shackled to an 85 BP, 90% accuracy STAB move in Icicle Crash. Strong coverage? Close Combat is good, but undermines the fantastic natural bulk that tries to compensate for mono-Ice typing, and...that's it for really good moves. High Horsepower isn't bad, but it's worse than Earthquake, and neither Double Edge/Thrash nor Outrage are hitting much of value.

Give this bad boy Glacial Lance and Earthquake and it'd have a niche on Trick Room teams. Give it properly good coverage and run it with AV on a snow team and laugh as 100/130/110 bulk doesn't even care about the poor typing. As it is, the move pool is just too barren to make it work.

 

[Seraphyde]

Can you please elaborate on your Gholdengo point?
It is a unique opinion and I'm interested in hearing it out in detail.

Click to collapse...

Stops Corviknight from being too splashable and (with Air Balloon variants) makes it harder for the elephants to mash R*pid Sp*n into Headlong/EQ which thus forces fat players to actually think in order to remove hazards. This in turn has contributed to the development of a more diverse meta game with options such as Knock + Defog Scizor and Geezing. I dislike dealing with both of those things but I’d rather see people get creative than just flip the fucking bird at me every time. Ghold is also just fine special attacker and status spreader.

And yes, you heard me right, I do think that there is such a thing as hazard removal being too splashable.

 

[soupeater]

I don't really agree with the idea that hazard removal would somehow run rampant with gholdengo gone (especially given how easy setting hazards is in the first place). However, I have come to really appreciate Gholdengo's versatility when blocking other status moves aside from just defog. Blocking random stuff like TWave, Encore, Trick, Taunt, etc is just nice for being able to scout with recover without being punished. The main thing for me though is the immunity to roar/whirlwind, a trait which only two other ou-viable mons (dogi and hatt, neither of which are particularly threatening setup sweepers) possess. In particular, on grassy terrain teams I've found it very useful as a way to avoid getting grassy seeds and booster energies randomly popped early on, especially since with enough terrain turns Ghold fully sets up on and beats Ting Lu.

 

[Finchinator]

I highly doubt Gholdengo is ever going anywhere. I also highly doubt hazard removal is ever being touched.

 

[Finchinator]

this was a Gastrodon jumpscare ngl

 

[JackRG]

View attachment 766836
this was a Gastrodon jumpscare ngl

Click to collapse...

thats my goat fr

speaking of :gastrodon:, has anyone experimented with it at all recently? I've actually tried it quite a bit, and it feels solid with its ability to pivot into and softcheck a lot of things like :darkrai:, :primarina:, :Raging Bolt:, :Gholdengo:, :Iron Crown:, :Walking Wake:, :Zapdos:, and even deny flip turn from the dreaded :alomomola:, all while possessing the always valuable utility of spikes, but I can't seem to find the right supporting core to pair it with. What mons do people find synergize well with :gastrodon:?

Gastrodon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Spikes
- Recover

This is my favorite set, but there is room for a bit of experimentation, such as running leftovers over boots or sludge bomb to annoy :ogerpon-wellspring: switch ins and potentially fish for poison. I do think spdef is the way to go in the current meta tho.