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Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 15: Without Me | Flutter Mane Suspect

Hey folks. Hope y'all are doing good. Now in the voting test I personally have no problem voting that Flutter Mane should not be banned because I genuinely have no problem with it being around. I also don't have a problem with it gone to be honest. I took a bunch of public opinion and saw a few posts on the voting thread. It seems like people really want Flutter Mane to be gone as they are having a lot of problems with it. I really don't know why the users have a problem with it being around. I myself haven't been on smogon doubles OU format for a long time aside from the time of getting 2980 coil as a requirement to vote. But anyways, I respect the public opinion of banning it and for this reason I would like to vote Flutter Mane to be BANNED. And yea that's it pretty much. Honestly, I think Flutter Mane isn't that a big of an issue but since the player base wanted it to be hit with the ban hammer I voted ban. Thats it guys. See you next time soon
 
As much as I see where the freeing flutter arguments coming from, especially zee´s, I would say that Flutter Mane’s presence is simply too much for the tier to handle consistently.
Its combination of Speed, power, versatility and coverage would make it the strongest offensive piece in the format ,not only individually, but also when used alongside common partners like Chi-Yu or Landorus, which eliminate most of the already narrow counterplay. The result would be a metagame where teambuilding revolves around checking Flutter first, with limited options that often come at heavy cost elsewhere.
SV DOU seems to be in a healthy place and bringing Flutter back would centralize play around their presence.

Verdict: Do not Unban
 
Hello, i can't see My name there
I’m guessing you did follow the instructions on the original post


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There are still votes remaining, but the result is decided. With Do not Unban having received over 40% of the vote already, Flutter Mane will remain BANNED from SV DOU. The current voting breakdown is as follows:

Total Voters: 96
Do not Unban: 57 (59.4%)
Unban: 19 (19.8%)
Votes Remaining: 20 (20.8%)

Tagging dhelmise and Marty to reimplement on PS, thanks!

For anyone who qualified but has not yet voted, voting will remain open here until the end of the week. If you now qualify for Tiering Contributor (e.g. from having 4 DOU votes), please send me or bagel a DM with your votes.

Thank you to everybody who participated in this suspect test!
 
Let's talk about Espathra. If you haven't been following the tier recently or lost internet for the past 2 weeks that might seem a little insane, but it's been seeing some real usage again in the tier finally, where the last time it had really seen play was back from when Archaludon was legal and it was used as a Baton Passer. However, it's been used again recently in tournaments such as SCL and LCQ, LCQ again, and LCQ again!

Compared to more conventional set up users in the tier like Nasty Plot Gholdengo or Swords Dance Iron Hands, Espathra is far, far less interactive. Either you have a matchup or you don't. But having (or not having) a matchup can mean a lot of different things. If your counterplay to Espathra is making sure your Ting-Lu hits Whirlwind, you better not run into Taunt Ogerpon (like I had in the replay I linked), if it's hoping to wall it out with Gholdengo, you better hope it isn't Baton Passing into Heatran (like the SeaLife replay), or if you just want to gradually swing at it a few times until it's low enough that you can trade without too much material lost, you better hope it's not being paired next to... Comfey??? My point being, the counterplay is hardly up for you to decide, it's rather what the opponent lets you get away with.

There's no skill in using this Pokemon. We should aim to maximize how much of a competitive environment our tier is, that's why we ban things like Swagger, evasion moves, so on and so forth. You can say that you want to wait a while longer and see if this is actually a problem, but I'd say that we're just losing more competitive games of an amazing tier's twilight months to a stupid omniboosting ostrich.
 
Wanted to add additional context onto zee 's post as I believe espathra should be banned immediately in SV Doubles overused. Espathra's exploits have concurrently impacted National Dex Doubles' metagame to a similar degree, a significantly higher power level format with titans like Flutter Mane, Z Hypnosis Bronzong, Deoxys-Attack, Mega-Salamence and Spectral thief Marshadow to inhibit it's ability to stack boosts. Espathra has still managed to seep into the metagame with great success in NDPL and National Dex Ladder Tour, it's been successful in fishing almost every archetype in our metagame and is very much not limited to the partners we see in these games, as is a apparent by the large variety of abusers in SV. The natdex playerbase is already calling for this pokemon to be banished from the tier, and I believe it adds nothing to that format or SV. It's abundantly clear to me that Espathra is uncompetitive regardless of tier, baton pass (thanks to nails) or partners it enables and should immediately be banned from SV and Natdex DOU. I hope the council sees that it brings nothing of value to the format and acts swiftly, as the concurrent realization of this bird's potential has me worried it will only act to ruin world cup and the back end of SCL.
 
espathra is just a cheese fish ostrich. it is easy to counter if you want to run hard tech and it also loses to offensive pressure (cheese). it can't usually run away with a game unless it has a good mu (fish). and failing that, anything can get through it with a well timed crit so the only option a lot ot the time is to bury your head in the sand and pray you don't get rnged out (ostrich). snarl tends to get there against it, giving tons of time to crit it out or make it watch its friends die or let the opponent set up their own threat. it's not a behemoth until it gets a few boosts, and only really can safely find that time against hard durdle. espathra is a healthy part of a complete metagame. it's a flavor of the week fad.
 
Givrix bring it since August in ladd and last SSNL.
The only good word to say here is bring back flutter and archa, ban chi-yu and let espathra free.
I wont argument here because reading selfish post like some have done earlier just bored me from DOU.
When an UR mon just cramble one or two good player and then is played in 1 tour by 1 good player everyone calling for a ban because their builder just can't handle that and they don't want to think out of the box to find the solution.
Btw they'll find a solution 1 week after but calling for quickban before that is better...
And speaking about "competitivity" of our tier. Focus on banning bright powder is FAR more better than getting a spotlight on Espathra.
Don't cry when 10% evasion will win a final.
 
Espathra: Ban

Espathra simply provides dominant yet non-interactive play to the scene, bringing about an unhealthy element to the metagame. It forces players to adapt to a specific situation and prepare for a singular moment in the game for a strategy that also has the notable power to basically shaft any team. It doesn't really matter much on what a player brings as baton passing to a slew of powerful threats, including Stored Power Necrozma, can easily overrun any defensive counter. The focus is to stop the set up from ever happening or else it's essentially game; whether it does happen or not doesn't really matter as the baton passing player still has the initiative by being able to threaten game by simply positioning to the "flowchart", and this initiative gives these kinds of teams an inherent advantage. This takes out the interactivity in Doubles play as the matchup factor is totally taken off, and it simply becomes a matter of "don't let this happen or it's g_g". With Espathra, the game simply becomes linear and the state of the metagame is unhealthy, essentially making the game "unfun" o_o

Notice anything? Probably not, except it doesn't sound like I wrote it. I copy pasted this word for word from Idyll's ban reasoning from 2017, when Eevium Z was unanimously quickbanned from SM DOU, replacing every instance of Eevee with Espathra and keeping everything else the same. It's really that simple- in the same way that Eevium Z is uncompetitive and not deserving of being in a competitive metagame, Espathra is uncompetitive and does not belong in SV DOU. A few differences though:
-Unlike Eevee, Espathra actually can exert offensive pressure itself, thanks to having access to stored power and having a completely fine statline in its own right. This forces a player to make guesses about whether the Espathra is baton pass or has a coverage move itself, as well as giving the Espathra player far more options than the Eevee player
-Espathra has a much easier time setting up, with Speed Boost providing it plenty of entry points to boost its stats before taking damage
-Espathra can set up multiple times per game or boost past +2 spatk +2spdef +2 speed
-Espathra (for the most part) has much better support partners available to it thanks to being in gen 9, with Ogerpon and Rillaboom both assisting it greatly in setting up and having access to plenty of other redirectors as well (Eevee did have Jirachi with Follow Me to assist it, but had to rely on Pokemon like Hitmontop for Fake Out support, not having access to intimidate Incineroar (I think?) at the time)
-Espathra boosts slightly slower, rather than boosting to +2 all at once, but it trades this for literally all of the benefits above and having much better base stats (and can also boost much higher than Eevee)

This pokemon adds nothing to the format other than another unfun matchup check and increasing the probability that your opponent will not get to play the game in a meaningful capacity. That there is counterplay is undeniable. However, it's also undeniable that a tiering element whose primary counterplay is the move haze does not belong in a broad format where a player must account for a large variety of pokemon and every moveslot matters (see Eevium Z, Dondozo). I've seen the argument presented that Espathra only punishes durdle but a quick look at the following replays from yesterday shows how this is not the case:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-885536
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-885535

Sure, teams can attempt to tech more for espathra in the future but innovation goes both ways and Espathra players have plenty of options available to subvert potential counterplay, such as fast taunt, screens, or even teching on pokemon to beat specific offensive matchups that could be annoying for espathra. Espathra is not conducive to a healthy format and as an archetype is essentially a buffed gen 9 version of Eevium Z, something that was unanimously quickbanned for being uncompetitive. Today, no one is missing Eevium Z in SM DOU and SM DOU is one of the most beloved formats in the community. Banning Espathra is an easy step towards making SV DOU a better format and is in line with precedent from previous formats, just like banning evasion abilities. Espathra should be quick banned or suspected as soon as possible.
 
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