Actually Dragonite takes around 30% from Ivy Cudgel if Multiscale is broken (not hard to pull off, and if at any point Dragonite comes in on Ivy Cudgel while MS is down, it is forced to roost or it won't be able to comfortably take boosted Cudgels next time (especially with the risk of crits). Of course bulky DNite takes it much better, but it's one set. And Play Rough isn't exactly the only way Wellspring can bypass DNite. The thing with needing hazard removal for DNite in case of Knock Off, is that Wellspring beats most removal options so in a game where it's coming in a lot. If you aren't using Hatterene, stopping to removal rocks isn't the easiest against Wellspring teams (unless you're Cinderace but that isn't perfect either).
Fair enough. Although in in terms of hazard removal, I'm assuming we are talking :galarian-weezing:
?. in a certain context maybe is true as
and
are the most common form of removal in the game and both lose to waterpon. in that case yea wogerpon is beating its removal options a lot of the time, but then again this is a game of 6 mons no? tusk and treads could find other opportunities in the games to remove hazards and common spin blockers like
and
wont exactly be taking hits from
comfortably. again this is really dependent on game state though i'm not dismissing scenarios where hazards are really super stacked and tusk/treads wont have the longevity to remove them, but I think they will find a reasonable amount of opportunities to remove hazards. in terms of the other removal options though I don't really agree that wellspring beats most of them. gweezing despite its numerous flaws is often sited as a Woger check, and Woger isn't exactly keen on staying in on a gweezing and risking a will o wisp or a sludge bomb for example. Again depending on game state Woger can/can't muscle through Gweez but generally speaking Gweez is not a mon Woger wants to be taking on. About
again, sure SD ogerpon can definitely muscle through corviknight, but lets assume in the context of hazards(since this is what the post is talking about) Ogerpon doesn't really want to be risking clicking taunt on a corviknight that can potentially kill it with brave bird or heavyily chip it with U-turn.
can outspeed and kill Woger if chipped(again assuming non tera, but even then cinderace still clicks U-turn for free. Woger also isn't exactly keen on taking on physdef
packing nuzzle.
The point is that, if you don't want to be forced to burn Tera against it, you need other back ups which can be more limiting than it seems. Of course Tornadus-T, Zamazenta and some others can soft check temporarily, but they're imperfect answers for multiple reasons whether it's shaky bulk or vulnerability to crits and lack of longevity.
again I think some of the points are being missed here. the DnB in general isn't arguing that Woger has perfect checks that can handle it in the long term or that Woger can't muscle through its checks, I'm not arguing that. i'm argument that Woger has a fair amount of checks that can handle it and phase it out in the early/mid game and prevent it from rolling through teams immediately. in that case Woger checks are fairly reliable in doing that. and on the tera stuff again its situational. you're not going to be forced to burn tera everytime, but in situations where you need to it's there and games can still be winnable.
physdef Pecha switches in but after Knock Off, it's vulnerable to being overwhelmed by hazards. Even with just rocks up, Pecha needs to almost always Recover each time it switches into Ivy Cudgel lest it fall dangerously close into range of a potential crit +2 Cudgel (something you must factor), or Tera Water +2 hits. Dragonite checks some variants, not all. Not just Play Rough but Knock variants are irritating for it too. The rest of this is just not really a sound argument, saying that Wellspring can go without SD isn't really compelling because a lot of them still are running it. You always have to respect the possibility of it.
When talking about checks that lose to different Wellspring sets, it's not a matter of these sets appearing all the time, but that you have no real way of knowing which you'll face and prepping for the many variants it can bring is a strain on building. SD has many permutations alone, and with Wellspring variants now including bulkier sets and recovery moves, it continues to broaden the possibilities and make counterplay weirder. There aren't many comfortable true stop gaps. Side note but I miss Tangrowth.
Okay so it seems we are going in circles on the Pecharunt argument. I'm saying physdef Pecharunt can switch in on Woger if you initially recover and hazards aren't stacked, your saying that it's vulnarable if hazards are up. both are reasonable situations but it's just going to keep going in circles if we going further. FWIW though from my experience playing OLT Pecharunt was still able to check Woger pretty decently despite being knocked and stealth rocks being up(not ideal, but still good enough)
On your statement that "you have no real way of knowing which woger you'll face" I disagree with.
does not have the set anonymity as a dragon dance
or
that can run 4-5 different tera blast sets. Woger does not have the same set anonymity due to being item and tera locked, which removes a lot from the guessing game. yes Woger has a lot set diversity but you can figure out it's moveset on the first turn its in(assuming its not just spamming cudgel). for example if Woger clicks U-turn you can safely assume its not SD(I highly doubt anyone runs SD u-turn but I have seen it like one time). If Woger clicks a support move like encore/taunt/spikes or clicks trailblaze you can safely assume its lacking coverage and base your game plans on that information. knock off is probably the trickiest one but then again you can still assume stuff like no play rough, etc. I know people don't like the argument "YoU cAn TeLl BaSeD oN tHe TeAm PrIeViEw" but there is some truth to it as in you can make an educated guess based on team preview. for example if you see a team that looks like a voltTurn spam team you can assume that Woger is U-turn. if you see a team that looks like set up spam(I'm talking like a veil,webs or other sorta niche archetypes like grassy terrain structures) you can assume SD Woger is coming. if you see a team that looks like hazard stacking(which is probably easier to tell) you can assume Woger is knock off. Sure educated guesses aren't always going to be exactly right but they are more reliable than not.
Lastly I do want to point out that certain Woger sets do have its flaws and disadvantages. for example encore Pon and trailblaze Pon lack coverage moves and especially trailblaze Pon has a worst matchup into bulkier teams. Knock is probably the most reliable Woger move into everything but even then knock off Pon variants can lack the immediate breaking of a SD play rough woger and have a more annoying matchups into dragons for example(can definitely be beatable, but its a little harder)
Gliscor and Gholdengo aren't really something to be put in the group of braindead (well maybe some SD Gliscor sets are silly but meh). And Kingambit isn't even at its peak from earlier in the gen. It's great, but it has flaws holding it back and is not nearly as flexible in sets compared to Wellspring or Dragonite. And I'm perplexed why Bolt is even here at all, since it's neither braindead nor super crazy. It's not something that "basically gets a kill every time it switches in", not at all. And it is pretty defensively lacking at times while being pretty fair to overwhelm through chip and pressure.
both
and
have insanely broken abilities in prison heal and GAG. being entirely immune to support moves and in gliscors case, being immune to status conditions while getting free hp off being poisoned makes them cheap to use. and Gholdengo has one of the best typings in the game and has two spammable stab combos in shadow ball(ghost resist are fairly limited) and make it rain(120 move with barely any draw backs) I would argue they belong in the braindead category. I disagree on your assessment on
, outside of ting lu & iron treads(which don't like taking specs Draco's) raging bolt pretty much has nothing that wants to switch ins. imo its around the caliber of specs kyurem, although it's slower I argue its less predict reliant than Kyurem since it can just spam specs draco especially into teams where ting lu is the main check and most fairy types get severely chipped from volt switch/thunderbolt.
although isn't the mon its once was its still generally agreed upon as a braindead mon that can just come in the late game and claim wins, its also one of the more controversial tera abusers so it definitely belongs here. I could have put
or
but they are more controversial mons where there is a good amount of people that think these mons are broken as well and basing arguments around them when talking about Woger as well will probably end up in the debate going a different direction which I don't really want right now.
and again the general point of that section where I mentioned those braindead mons isn't about their literal level of brokenness. it's about the sentiment that you can think something is very braindead/cheap to use but also think they are not broken at the same just. someone originally quoted my post saying "I love how you think Woger is balanced but also admit its cheap and braindead to use" and my general response to it was that something can be braindead, and can also be thought to be balanced/not broken at the same.
As a general note, when talking Wellspring, games like the match between TDNT and leng loi from SCL during week 2 really illustrate why Wellspring can be a frustrating pokemon. By all rights, leng loi was well prepared for Wellspring with Zamazenta, Tornadus-T and even Kyurem meaning they had a decent out in most situations. And yet on turn 20, Wellspring proceeded to BS anyways because Cudgel crit through a +3 Zama and removed it from the game on the spot. Torn-T got removed by Valiant and then Kyurem was dropped by the surprise Play Rough at the end.
That really brings me to a point about this mon: It's not that inherently it's impossible to prepare for, but that prepping for it is a big ask when few long term answers exist and many short term answers are also tasked with handling other threats on Wellspring's teams, making preserving those short term answers for it while also handling other threats tough. Crit Cudgel allowing Wellspring to upend would be counterplay is to me, a major reason why I can't stand its presence. There's a lot of threats that indivudually aren't problematic necessarily, but preparing for them all sometimes feels like a chore when threats like Wellspring stick out and require extra attention, making building frustrating at times.
If i'm being honest I don't think the replay you cited is a good example of Woger being broken. I didn't watch the replay myself but based on what other people commented about that replay it seems like that zama setting up all those iron defense wasn't necessary, it seems leng loi was being greedy with the iron defenses and ended up getting critted by Woger. it's tuff but based on what i'm reading I'm going to assume it was preventable. also I know that ivy cudgel has a high crit rate but its still rng at the end of the day. I find the claim that Woger is stupid because of a replay where Woger only won cuz of a cudgel crit(which was preventable) very similar to the guy that was complaining about kyurem being broken then citing a replay of kyurem only winning because of a freeze(and it was preventable the guy that lost could have easily won and beat the kyurem).
although I do understand your general sentiment that Woger is frustrating and annoying to deal and it does lack very long term checks outside of mostly shitmons(minus my goat
obviously) and I feel like you're a good poster in general. I definitely don't want to go back and forth with you, I'm just hoping we can meet an eye for an eye and understand each others views.
Side note: does anyone know the actually command for the Gweezing sprite?? I have trouble finding that. And forums is really annoying. spent nearly half an hour typing this and I click away for one second and most of it was removed, so I had to type it again. hopefully it's coherent enough to get my point across(and hopefully not that much grammar mistakes).
), as well as needing to make a few reads against cores like Ogerpon-W + Ghost type or regen mon, which are all pretty annoying. That said, you still have a good enough speed tier to outspeed some key mons like Lando-T, Great Tusk, Ghold, Samu-H, and Glimm, which you can use as entry points to get the big hits in. 
) that can sufficiently limit the amount of progress wellspring can make. they aren't perfect counters ofc, given ivy cudgel's crit rate and wellspring's long list of coverage options, but they often provide enough stability to prevent her from just setting up an SD and slaughtering everything. and between her own 4MSS and gen 9's more proactive style of defensive counterplay, i'm not sure if i can say this mon is outright banworthy. i wouldn't be opposed to a wellspring suspect at all but i'm still very skeptical on banning it; some of her checks are more splashable than ever and she constantly has to adjust her moveslots to account for them, only to leave herself without anything to threaten a different pokemon, and so on. if she ever does end up getting banned, then so be it, i just don't think it's absolutely necessary to ban this mon. 
