Project Metagame Workshop

[FirstShowDownNoob]

Guessmons:

Premise:
Guess your opponent's pokemon to make them faint by using clues from the current battle.

Explanation:
You are not shown your opponent's pokemon (fog of war), but you can see what moves they use, abilities that activate, health % and any move's effectiveness, ect.
You can then guess what species your opponent's pokemon is by using a command before your turn, and if you get it right, that pokemon faints, if you get it wrong, there is no penalty.

Banlist:
Current OU Banlist + any pokemon with extensive movepools (e.g mew).

Custom rules:
All pokemon must have nicknames.

Potential exploits:
Using a calculator to narrow down the options from the percentage health change.
Using a single move with a powerful sweeper.

Potential strategies:
Using a physical mon as a special mon and vice versa to make it harder to guess. Using a wall to buy time to collect clues on your opponent's pokemon. Using a mon with mixed special/phys to make it harder to guess.


Is there anything that could be broken in this gamemode or anything you would change?

 

[traceyscetchit]

Does this mean each player will select 2 actions on turn 1 (switching in a Pokemon and clicking a move) and then they will only see that their Pokemon switched in, but can choose the action on turn 2?

Correct, choosing leads happens 'turn 0'.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Guessmons:

Project Post in thread 'Metagame Workshop'

Jan 31, 2025

Alright, this metagame would be kinda impossible to do on ladder, but it would be possible to do in a tournament setting, and it sounds pretty fun.

Guess Hoopa
Premise:The pokemon you and your opponents have are not revealed even when they are sent out, and the pokemon are only referred to using numbers, or, if that makes it too hard to remember, are represented by an unrelated pokemon. Now, you might be thinking that this would make setup sweepers too powerful, as it would be impossible to stop them before it is too late. However, here's the kicker. At the end of every...

• Cancel cult

• 

This idea was posted a while back, and I think the main problem with it is that it shifts the entire point of a battle away from who has greater skill and knowledge to just who can randomly guess your team. Furthermore, this OM would be absolute hell to ladder on because you would have to switch up your team/username nearly every game in order to avoid scouters.

 

[3417gekko]

Idea I recently came up with, it uses no new mechanics but rather restricts the information both players receive. This may be difficult to code so idk if it's even feasible to implement but I may as well show it anyways.

Historianmons​

Ever wanted to switch into your choice specs hoopa-unbound to annihilate the opposing toxapex... without them even realizing you did it? Do you wish focus punch was more viable? Are you the player that loves predicting and making hard callouts at every available opportunity? If so, this metagame is for you!

Premise

In Historianmons, both players can only see the state of the battle as it was one turn previously.

So if say, stealth rocks are on board, does the reminder for them go away in 2 turns as well or does that stay because that's a persistent state? While I think there's people who find merit in playing the memory minigame I think it can otherwise be argued this is a strictly subtractive OM and a lot of people aren't down for that.

 

[traceyscetchit]

So if say, stealth rocks are on board, does the reminder for them go away in 2 turns as well or does that stay because that's a persistent state? While I think there's people who find merit in playing the memory minigame I think it can otherwise be argued this is a strictly subtractive OM and a lot of people aren't down for that.

No, the rocks would be visible until removed, as usual. The difference is that the opponent wouldn't see you set the rocks until a turn after they were clicked, so the opponent may, for example, unknowingly switch a charizard or something in before defogging. The om does not test memory and the battle log would always keep track of the game, it just may not be up to date.

 

[qways]

Stackattack:
Metagame premise: You can create new multihit moves by combining single hit (non status) moves, but the total bp must not exceed 80 bp.
Explanation: Hatterene learns both Draining Kiss and Nuzzle. You could combine those moves by writing either Draining Kiss/Nuzzle or Nuzzle/Draining Kiss, since the total bp doesnt exceed 80 bp. Ingame Hatterene would then use each move consecutively.
Potential bans and threats: Technician and priority moves got stronger, though not sure if they are bannable. low bp trapping move like fire spin and infestitation would be much better. mud-slap and similar moves should probably get banned though
Questions for the community:
How high do you think the bp limit should be? Should the metagame be ubers or ou based? How should the combination of 2 moves with diffrent priority bracket get handled? Should it be allowed to use some/all status moves for combination?

 

[Hiusi guy]

Stackattack:
Metagame premise: You can create new multihit moves by combining single hit (non status) moves, but the total bp must not exceed 80 bp.
Explanation: Hatterene learns both Draining Kiss and Nuzzle. You could combine those moves by writing either Draining Kiss/Nuzzle or Nuzzle/Draining Kiss, since the total bp doesnt exceed 80 bp. Ingame Hatterene would then use each move consecutively.
Potential bans and threats: Technician and priority moves got stronger, though not sure if they are bannable. low bp trapping move like fire spin and infestitation would be much better. mud-slap and similar moves should probably get banned though
Questions for the community:
How high do you think the bp limit should be? Should the metagame be ubers or ou based? How should the combination of 2 moves with diffrent priority bracket get handled? Should it be allowed to use some/all status moves for combination?

This seems very similar to linked, and i don’t rly see how this is much better or different enough, I could also just be blind to some niche this carves out

Metagame Thread 'Linked'

Feb 24, 2020

Credit to Hack_Guy for original Linked metagame. Programmed by Kris, Slayer95, MacChaeger.
Approved by The Immortal
Led by Ivy and Kris​

Premise
Selecting a Pokemon's first or second move will cause it to use both of those moves in a row on that same turn.

Introduction
Fans of the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon spin-off series will likely appreciate this OM based on a special mechanic from those games. An Electivire NPC was able to conjoin up to four of your...

• Ivy
• Replies: 210
• Forum: SS OM

• 
• 

 

[qways]

Its not similar at all. In Stack Attack the combined moves would take up only one move slot, you could combine more than 2 moves and Stack attack has a bp limit, unlike Linked.

 

[3417gekko]

Stackattack:
Metagame premise: You can create new multihit moves by combining single hit (non status) moves, but the total bp must not exceed 80 bp.
Explanation: Hatterene learns both Draining Kiss and Nuzzle. You could combine those moves by writing either Draining Kiss/Nuzzle or Nuzzle/Draining Kiss, since the total bp doesnt exceed 80 bp. Ingame Hatterene would then use each move consecutively.
Potential bans and threats: Technician and priority moves got stronger, though not sure if they are bannable. low bp trapping move like fire spin and infestitation would be much better. mud-slap and similar moves should probably get banned though
Questions for the community:
How high do you think the bp limit should be? Should the metagame be ubers or ou based? How should the combination of 2 moves with diffrent priority bracket get handled? Should it be allowed to use some/all status moves for combination?

2 questions.
1) how would move typing,priority, etc worked if they are combined into one discreet "move"?
2)how does the 80 damage limit function in regards to moves with variable base power? Like gyro ball.

 

[qways]

1. I wrote those moves are use consecutively - their effects arent combined. So a mon could use the electric move nuzzle and then rigth afterwards the fairy move draining kiss. I believe if the first move misses, then the second move should miss aswell.
In regards to priority, there are multiple possibilities: 1) all moves have the bracket of the fastest move. 2) both moves keep their brackets - so its possible you may use one move before your opp and one afterwards. 3) all moves have the bracket of the slowest move. 4) all moves have the bracket of the first move listed.
I prefer option 4.

2. I think when a moves has a variable bp limit the max bp should matter.

 

[Dawn's Piplup]

Stackattack:
Metagame premise: You can create new multihit moves by combining single hit (non status) moves, but the total bp must not exceed 80 bp.
Explanation: Hatterene learns both Draining Kiss and Nuzzle. You could combine those moves by writing either Draining Kiss/Nuzzle or Nuzzle/Draining Kiss, since the total bp doesnt exceed 80 bp. Ingame Hatterene would then use each move consecutively.
Potential bans and threats: Technician and priority moves got stronger, though not sure if they are bannable. low bp trapping move like fire spin and infestitation would be much better. mud-slap and similar moves should probably get banned though
Questions for the community:
How high do you think the bp limit should be? Should the metagame be ubers or ou based? How should the combination of 2 moves with diffrent priority bracket get handled? Should it be allowed to use some/all status moves for combination?

I think what's meant was in terms of playability it is a restricted version of linked and maybe even a little more complicated, as you're putting two moves in one slot (essentially introducing new moves) - so the question then becomes why something more complicated and restrictive is more appealing than linked which has more options?

Here's a slightly different idea. One universal mechanic you might try is turning low BP moves themselves into multi-hit moves, which would cap at 120 or maybe even highest base stat of the user.
Something like this was proposed in older threads as well - goes under the name Echo chamber

 

[qways]

I think what's meant was in terms of playability it is a restricted version of linked and maybe even a little more complicated, as you're putting two moves in one slot (essentially introducing new moves) - so the question then becomes why something more complicated and restrictive is more appealing than linked which has more options?

I wanted to make low bp moves more viable. Linked doesnt achieve that, which is why i dont like the comparison.
Now Echo chamber is more similar to Stack Attack, but i still prefer Stack Attack, since combining diffrent moves allows for more creativity imo.

 

[3417gekko]

1. I wrote those moves are use consecutively - their effects arent combined. So a mon could use the electric move nuzzle and then rigth afterwards the fairy move draining kiss. I believe if the first move misses, then the second move should miss aswell.
In regards to priority, there are multiple possibilities: 1) all moves have the bracket of the fastest move. 2) both moves keep their brackets - so its possible you may use one move before your opp and one afterwards. 3) all moves have the bracket of the slowest move. 4) all moves have the bracket of the first move listed.
I prefer option 4.

2. I think when a moves has a variable bp limit the max bp should matter.

I think treating moves like gyro ball as if they have max power is kinda arbitrary and more or less bans them from use, which is fine I just think just banning them would be clearer conveyance.
Also in regards to arbitrary, are you dead set on 80BP as the breakpoint? 80 is kinda low and a lot of mons I've looked at (ceruledge, glimmora, hattrene) actually struggle to get a nice round 80 with 2 moves let alone squeeze in 3 or 4. Very few moves are actually in the 10-30 range that aren't multi hut whereas 50-60 opens up a pretty large amount and 40 tends to be the weakest move a lot of mons learn. At 80 I fear only a small amt of mons would be able to take advantage of it and usually in very linear ways (Garg can tack on tackle to salt cure, some mons can add moves to power trip or stored power I guess, but for a lot of mons it's genuinely worse than an existing 80 power option). 100 is a nice round number and even 90 permits just a bit more creativity without being huge damage. I think wanting to give UUMs a use is noble but very few at 80 actually get to shine bc their best option is something like ember poison sting which isn't worth using.

 

[qways]

Also in regards to arbitrary, are you dead set on 80BP as the breakpoint? 80 is kinda low and a lot of mons I've looked at (ceruledge, glimmora, hattrene) actually struggle to get a nice round 80 with 2 moves let alone squeeze in 3 or 4. Very few moves are actually in the 10-30 range that aren't multi hut whereas 50-60 opens up a pretty large amount and 40 tends to be the weakest move a lot of mons learn. At 80 I fear only a small amt of mons would be able to take advantage of it and usually in very linear ways (Garg can tack on tackle to salt cure, some mons can add moves to power trip or stored power I guess, but for a lot of mons it's genuinely worse than an existing 80 power option). 100 is a nice round number and even 90 permits just a bit more creativity without being huge damage. I think wanting to give UUMs a use is noble but very few at 80 actually get to shine bc their best option is something like ember poison sting which isn't worth using.

I think you are rigth about this. 100 bp seems like a better limit for your stated reasons.
Alternatively i got the idea to disregard bp when combining/stacking. F.e. when you combine one move with 70 bp and one with 60 bp, they will create a double hit move with 2x 50 bp and when you combine one move with 40 bp and one move with 50 bp they will also create a double hit move with 2x 50 bp. Stacking 3 moves could always have 3x 30 bp. etc...

 

[Samtendo09]

Non-STAB Compensation (name wip)
Metagame premise: Negatives of a non-status moves are turned into positives as non-STABs.
Explanation: Any non-field penalty or hinderful effect of using a non-STAB non-status move will either be turned into the opposite positive (i.e. 33% recoil based on damage -> 33% HP healed based on damage) or removed if there’s no direct opposite. Contact is not considered as a negative due to being a move flag. Pre-Terastalization STABs still applies after Terastalization, and thusly are not Compensated.

All Negative Effects converted and examples

• Accuracy is 20% if not Ice-type -> Accuracy is 40% if not Ice-type (Sheer Cold; banned)
• Double damage from certain moves -> Half damage from certain moves (Dive, Dig)
• Recoil damage based on 1/3 damage -> HP healed based on 1/3 damage (Wave Crash, Volt Tackle, etc.)
• Recoil damage based on 1/2 damage -> HP healed based on 1/2 damage (Head Smash)
• Recoil that costs 50% of max HP -> HP healed by 50% (Steel Beam, Chloroblast)
• Lower the user’s stat(s) -> Raise the user’s stat(s) (Overheat, Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Ice Hammer, etc.)
• User cannot move the turn after use -> User can move regardless of statuses next turn after use (Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Hydro Cannon, etc.)
• If missed, user takes crash damage of 50% of max HP -> If missed, user recover HP by 50% of max HP (Jump Kick, High Jump Kick, Axe Kick, Supercell Slam)
• User charges first turn unless holding a Power Herb -> The user immediately uses it as if holding a Power Herb (Solar Beam [Banned as Non-STAB], Solar Blade [Banned as Non-STAB], Dive, Dig, Meteor Beam, Sky Attack, etc.)
• User cannot move if hit -> If hit, the user can move regardless of statuses this turn (Focus Punch)
• Lasts 2-3 turns, cannot switch away unless the move pre-maturely stops; confuse on end -> Immunity to trap for 2-3 turns, can select another move, immunity to confusion for 2-3 turns (Outrage, Petal Dance)
• The move cannot be consecutively -> The move cannot be prevented from being used next turn (Gigaton Hammer, Blood Moon)
• The user takes sure-hit double damage until their next move -> The user takes sure-hit half damage until their next move (Glaive Rush)
• Only works on first turn out -> Cannot be Disabled after the first turn out (Fake Out [Banned as non-STAB], First Impression)
• Fails if a condition isn’t met -> The user always move regardless of statuses if the condition is met; in case of Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst and Comeuppance, it’ll just deal 1 damage if the condition isn’t met (Sucker Punch, Steel Roller, Dream Eater, Sky Drop [Banned], Poltergeist, Upper Hand [Banned as non-STAB due to 100% flinch], etc.)
• Halved power if used during Rain -> Doubled power if used during Rain (Solar Beam [Banned as Non-STAB], Solar Blade [Banned as non-STAB])
• Accuracy dropped to 50% if used in Sun -> Bypass accuracy check if used in Sun (Thunder, Blizzard)

Potential bans and threats:

• Close Combat, Hammer Arm, Overheat and other self-stat reducing moves can become viable non-STAB moves by doubling as a powerful coverage move and boosting one’s own stats.
• Head Smash became a 150 BP Rock-type move with 50% damage-dealt HP recovery for Donphan, Emboar, Eiscue Basculegion, and especially Great Tusk. Other recoil moves can also be useful doubling as a semi-reliable recovery move with more PPs than Recover.
• Sucker Punch became a widely distributed non-STAB priority without the need of guessing the opponent’s move, at cost of hitting less hard than STAB Sucker Punch.
• Pokémon with a large learnset, but having middling STABs at best, can now compensate with improved non-STAB moves such as Focus Punch, Overheat / Close Combat, etc. Mew is a shining example due to access of numerous very high BP moves such as Blast Burn, Steel Beam and Draco Meteor, which may be on the watchlist.
• Inversively, Pokémom with strong STABs but limited coverage might not be able to use the metagame’s mechanics, though some may be able to take advantage of it nonetheless.
• Solar Beam and Solar Blade got quickbanned as non-STAB due to effective 240 BP in Rain and never needing to charge in any other, making it intensively spammable that can severely limit teambuilding.

Questions for the community:

• Are there other negatives that I missed and should be put on the list?
• Any other particular threat to take note off?

 

[Crep50]

Non-STAB Compensation (name wip)
Metagame premise: Negatives of a non-status moves are turned into positives as non-STABs.
Explanation: Any non-field penalty or hinderful effect of using a non-STAB non-status move will either be turned into the opposite positive (i.e. 33% recoil based on damage -> 33% HP healed based on damage) or removed if there’s no direct opposite. Contact is not considered as a negative due to being a move flag. Pre-Terastalization STABs still applies after Terastalization, and thusly are not Compensated.

All Negative Effects converted and examples

• Accuracy is 20% if not Ice-type -> Accuracy is 40% if not Ice-type (Sheer Cold; banned)
• Double damage from certain moves -> Half damage from certain moves (Dive, Dig)
• Recoil damage based on 1/3 damage -> HP healed based on 1/3 damage (Wave Crash, Volt Tackle, etc.)
• Recoil damage based on 1/2 damage -> HP healed based on 1/2 damage (Head Smash)
• Recoil that costs 50% of max HP -> HP healed by 50% (Steel Beam, Chloroblast)
• Lower the user’s stat(s) -> Raise the user’s stat(s) (Overheat, Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Ice Hammer, etc.)
• User cannot move the turn after use -> User can move regardless of statuses next turn after use (Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Hydro Cannon, etc.)
• If missed, user takes crash damage of 50% of max HP -> If missed, user recover HP by 50% of max HP (Jump Kick, High Jump Kick, Axe Kick, Supercell Slam)
• User charges first turn unless holding a Power Herb -> The user immediately uses it as if holding a Power Herb (Solar Beam, Solar Blade, Dive, Dig, Meteor Beam, Sky Attack, etc.)
• User cannot move if hit -> If hit, the user can move refardless of statuses this turn (Focus Punch)
• Lasts 2-3 turns, cannot switch away unless the move pre-maturely stops; confuse on end -> Immunity to trap for 2-3 turns, can select another move, immunity to confusion for 2-3 turns (Outrage, Petal Dance)
• The move cannot be consecutively -> The move cannot be prevented from being used next turn (Gigaton Hammer, Blood Moon)
• The user takes sure-hit double damage until their next move -> The user takes sure-hit half damage until their next move (Glaive Rush)
• The user cannot switch-away on use -> The user cannot be trapped on use, and flees from trapping if already trapped (No Retreat)
• Only works on first turn out -> Cannot be Disabled after the first turn out (Fake Out [Banned], First Impression)
• Fails if a condition isn’t met -> The user always move regardless of statuses if the condition is met; in case of Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst and Comeuppance, it’ll just deal 1 damage if the condition isn’t met (Sucker Punch, Steel Roller, Dream Eater, Sky Drop [Banned], Poltergeist, etc.)

Potential bans and threats:

• Close Combat, Hammer Arm, Overheat and other self-stat reducing moves can become viable non-STAB moves by doubling as a powerful coverage move and boosting one’s own stats.
• Head Smash became a 150 BP Rock-type move with 50% damage-dealt HP recovery for Donphan, Emboar, Eiscue Basculegion, and especially Great Tusk. Other recoil moves can also be useful doubling as a semi-reliable recovery move with more PPs than Recover.
• Sucker Punch became a widely distributed non-STAB priority without the need of guessing the opponent’s move, at cost of hitting less hard than STAB Sucker Punch.
• Pokémon with a large learnset, but having middling STABs at best, can now compensate with improved non-STAB moves such as Focus Punch, Solar Beam / Solar Blade, Overheat / Close Combat, etc.
• Inversively, Pokémom with strong STABs but limited coverage might not be able to use the metagame’s mechanics, though some may be able to take advantage of it nonetheless.

Questions for the community:

• Are there other negatives that I missed and should be put on the list?
• Any other particular threat to take note off?

How do thunder/hurricane and solar beam work in the respective negative weathers? Solar beam seems obvious with just doubling damage (which may need a ban? Me when 240 BP single turn grass move), but thunder/hurricane are an odd case of setting accuracy to a value, so i can only assume they’d just have that effect canceled. They’re also a weird case of “bad if a condition is met”, fwiw

 

[Dawn's Piplup]

Non-STAB Compensation (name wip)
Metagame premise: Negatives of a non-status moves are turned into positives as non-STABs.
Explanation: Any non-field penalty or hinderful effect of using a non-STAB non-status move will either be turned into the opposite positive (i.e. 33% recoil based on damage -> 33% HP healed based on damage) or removed if there’s no direct opposite. Contact is not considered as a negative due to being a move flag. Pre-Terastalization STABs still applies after Terastalization, and thusly are not Compensated.

All Negative Effects converted and examples

• Accuracy is 20% if not Ice-type -> Accuracy is 40% if not Ice-type (Sheer Cold; banned)
• Double damage from certain moves -> Half damage from certain moves (Dive, Dig)
• Recoil damage based on 1/3 damage -> HP healed based on 1/3 damage (Wave Crash, Volt Tackle, etc.)
• Recoil damage based on 1/2 damage -> HP healed based on 1/2 damage (Head Smash)
• Recoil that costs 50% of max HP -> HP healed by 50% (Steel Beam, Chloroblast)
• Lower the user’s stat(s) -> Raise the user’s stat(s) (Overheat, Close Combat, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Ice Hammer, etc.)
• User cannot move the turn after use -> User can move regardless of statuses next turn after use (Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Hydro Cannon, etc.)
• If missed, user takes crash damage of 50% of max HP -> If missed, user recover HP by 50% of max HP (Jump Kick, High Jump Kick, Axe Kick, Supercell Slam)
• User charges first turn unless holding a Power Herb -> The user immediately uses it as if holding a Power Herb (Solar Beam [Banned as Non-STAB], Solar Blade [Banned as Non-STAB], Dive, Dig, Meteor Beam, Sky Attack, etc.)
• User cannot move if hit -> If hit, the user can move regardless of statuses this turn (Focus Punch)
• Lasts 2-3 turns, cannot switch away unless the move pre-maturely stops; confuse on end -> Immunity to trap for 2-3 turns, can select another move, immunity to confusion for 2-3 turns (Outrage, Petal Dance)
• The move cannot be consecutively -> The move cannot be prevented from being used next turn (Gigaton Hammer, Blood Moon)
• The user takes sure-hit double damage until their next move -> The user takes sure-hit half damage until their next move (Glaive Rush)
• Only works on first turn out -> Cannot be Disabled after the first turn out (Fake Out [Banned as non-STAB], First Impression)
• Fails if a condition isn’t met -> The user always move regardless of statuses if the condition is met; in case of Counter, Mirror Coat, Metal Burst and Comeuppance, it’ll just deal 1 damage if the condition isn’t met (Sucker Punch, Steel Roller, Dream Eater, Sky Drop [Banned], Poltergeist, Upper Hand [Banned as non-STAB due to 100% flinch], etc.)
• Halved power if used during Rain -> Doubled power if used during Rain (Solar Beam [Banned as Non-STAB], Solar Blade [Banned as non-STAB])
• Accuracy dropped to 50% if used in Sun -> Bypass accuracy check if used in Sun (Thunder, Blizzard)

Potential bans and threats:

• Close Combat, Hammer Arm, Overheat and other self-stat reducing moves can become viable non-STAB moves by doubling as a powerful coverage move and boosting one’s own stats.
• Head Smash became a 150 BP Rock-type move with 50% damage-dealt HP recovery for Donphan, Emboar, Eiscue Basculegion, and especially Great Tusk. Other recoil moves can also be useful doubling as a semi-reliable recovery move with more PPs than Recover.
• Sucker Punch became a widely distributed non-STAB priority without the need of guessing the opponent’s move, at cost of hitting less hard than STAB Sucker Punch.
• Pokémon with a large learnset, but having middling STABs at best, can now compensate with improved non-STAB moves such as Focus Punch, Overheat / Close Combat, etc. Mew is a shining example due to access of numerous very high BP moves such as Blast Burn, Steel Beam and Draco Meteor, which may be on the watchlist.
• Inversively, Pokémom with strong STABs but limited coverage might not be able to use the metagame’s mechanics, though some may be able to take advantage of it nonetheless.
• Solar Beam and Solar Blade got quickbanned as non-STAB due to effective 240 BP in Rain and never needing to charge in any other, making it intensively spammable that can severely limit teambuilding.

Questions for the community:

• Are there other negatives that I missed and should be put on the list?
• Any other particular threat to take note off?

this is kind of similar to Conditions and I think similar ideas have circulated recently. The issue is what's negative and what's positive is kind of subjective and there is no universality to the premise. Like for instance, why does recoil turn into recovery instead of just being removed, whereas some other moves get their conditions removed?

For something like Aura Wheel, is the negative only Morpeko gets to use it and the positive everybody gets to use it?

I like the idea of passive damage becoming recovery, there might be some potential there but you probably need some tradeoff to make that interesting.