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“That One Pokémon You Just Have Beef With”
- Thread starter bdt2002
- Start date
thank you for coming to my TED Talk
Traditionally when people do a TED Talk they actually use words
a picture speaks a thousand words
You've got me there.
Ledian
I hate this thing so much.
A few teeny changes could have made it... actually usable. It has similar BSTs to most of the other early bugs, but even Dustox is an upgrade on this thing. Its movepool is mostly only saved by Light Screen and Baton Pass... That's literally all it has going for it. It took an interesting design choice and did it so badly they straight up did a new LadyBug Pokemon which is much better (Orbeetle)! As a sick joke GF even gave it basically every Punching move AND had the gall to give it IRON FIST. WITH 35 BASE ATTACK.
The other mons with similar BSTs all functionally work better. Better offences (Kricketune, Ariados), better movepools (Butterfree, Dustox) or have had upgrades which give them new leases of life (Beedrill, Sableye, Mawile). Or even the mons with gimmicks all work better as well (Smeargle, Shedinja, Wobbuffet). There is just nothing going for it. I used it once on a team which included both Delcatty and Luvdisc, and it STILL managed to be bottom of the barrel in terms of usefulness... I could write a long essay on how badly it performs.
The only other mon which comes CLOSE to this level of disdain for me is Noctowl. For similar reasons for really. Outclassed by even Pidgeot, its also by far the weakest of the starter birds (And this includes the ridiculousness of Unfezant).
I hate this thing so much.
A few teeny changes could have made it... actually usable. It has similar BSTs to most of the other early bugs, but even Dustox is an upgrade on this thing. Its movepool is mostly only saved by Light Screen and Baton Pass... That's literally all it has going for it. It took an interesting design choice and did it so badly they straight up did a new LadyBug Pokemon which is much better (Orbeetle)! As a sick joke GF even gave it basically every Punching move AND had the gall to give it IRON FIST. WITH 35 BASE ATTACK.
The other mons with similar BSTs all functionally work better. Better offences (Kricketune, Ariados), better movepools (Butterfree, Dustox) or have had upgrades which give them new leases of life (Beedrill, Sableye, Mawile). Or even the mons with gimmicks all work better as well (Smeargle, Shedinja, Wobbuffet). There is just nothing going for it. I used it once on a team which included both Delcatty and Luvdisc, and it STILL managed to be bottom of the barrel in terms of usefulness... I could write a long essay on how badly it performs.
The only other mon which comes CLOSE to this level of disdain for me is Noctowl. For similar reasons for really. Outclassed by even Pidgeot, its also by far the weakest of the starter birds (And this includes the ridiculousness of Unfezant).
Ledian
I hate this thing so much.
A few teeny changes could have made it... actually usable. It has similar BSTs to most of the other early bugs, but even Dustox is an upgrade on this thing. Its movepool is mostly only saved by Light Screen and Baton Pass... That's literally all it has going for it. It took an interesting design choice and did it so badly they straight up did a new LadyBug Pokemon which is much better (Orbeetle)! As a sick joke GF even gave it basically every Punching move AND had the gall to give it IRON FIST. WITH 35 BASE ATTACK.
The other mons with similar BSTs all functionally work better. Better offences (Kricketune, Ariados), better movepools (Butterfree, Dustox) or have had upgrades which give them new leases of life (Beedrill, Sableye, Mawile). Or even the mons with gimmicks all work better as well (Smeargle, Shedinja, Wobbuffet). There is just nothing going for it. I used it once on a team which included both Delcatty and Luvdisc, and it STILL managed to be bottom of the barrel in terms of usefulness... I could write a long essay on how badly it performs.
The only other mon which comes CLOSE to this level of disdain for me is Noctowl. For similar reasons for really. Outclassed by even Pidgeot, its also by far the weakest of the starter birds (And this includes the ridiculousness of Unfezant).
This is one is particularly tragic because you literally can't even save this with a mega evolution (though god knows people have tried). Even if you minmax it like Beedrill, it's still outclassed by stuff that can hold an item and too frail thanks to that terrible HP - 490 just isn't a high enough BST to divide up effectively. You could opt to work on its slightly better Special Attack, but then that makes Iron Fist pointless and you have to think about giving it an ability it can make better use of.
It's a shame because I really like the design, out of all the Johto Bugs I'd say it's my favourite. 110 Special Defence is pretty darn spectacular for an early-game mon, and 85 Speed isn't bad either. Tbf I may be biased but think it's just about passable in GSC (largely thanks to the generally lower power level in Gen II, but it also has a far better movepool than most Bug-types in those games can hope for) and in the Orre games, actually (XD, at least - the fact it comes late in the game enough in Colosseum to be encountered after Entei is frankly a crime). In XD it comes with Psybeam and Aerial Ace which are not bad attacking options at all, but its true value is in being a team supporter that's fast enough to not have to take two attacks before it can move.
Having used it in-game a few times I'd say its best use isn't really in being the star of the show, much as I might want it to be. It's one of the small handful of Pokemon that learned Baton Pass in earlier generations, which pairs nicely with Agility - it doesn't have a whole lot else it can pass to a teammate unless you count Light Screen, Reflect, and Safeguard but it does get Silver Wind too. With a little retooling I think it could be a much more optimised Baton Passer; Serene Grace and +10 to its HP would be the least I'd give it. Why not Quiver Dance too, it's hardly out of the question.
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Funny you say this, because I have similar reasons for having beef with a couple monsHonestly, gamefreak's shill mons by now have fell into a lot of hate these days, to the point were whenever any of pikachu, charizard, lucario and/or greninja get heavily featured in something, it's usually met with heavy eye rolls. Now, I do think this can get a little overblown to certain extent, but whenever the subject gets brought up, I can't help but feel bugged since, more often than not, I notice another BIG offender just casually skipped over.
Maybe it's personal bias speaking, since I've never really cared for gengar to any extent. But like, really think about it. They've appeared in basically all of the mainline games (barring the hoenn games. Huh, I actually didn't know that! The power of research!). They've made frequent playable appearances in several spinoffs, got TWO gimmick forms (mega and gmax form) and several spotlight moments in the anime to the point Ash even had one despite not being from Galar! In fact, I'm sure that if they were willing to consider older gen options, they'd even be high on the consideration list for Super Smash Bros! By and large, they have become THE ghost type pokemon.
And through it all... they've received absolutely no flack for it. People simply don't include them in the same league as the 4 I mentioned above, despite arguably having as much special treatment. Gengar stays an awesome creepy ghost gremlin.
Again, maybe this is just a combination of my inherent indifference towards them and burnout from seeing them everywhere, but it'll always puzzle and bother me.
I hate these guys (and most of the other members of their lines) and what they stand for. These guys are some if, if not THE, blandest pokemon of all time. Geodude is literally just an ugly rock with a face and arms. Machamp is literally just an ugly guy with blue skin and an extra pair of hands (He's even wearing clothes!). And most other members of their lines are no better. Graveler looks slightly more unique, but is still ultimately a rock with arms, and this one is really ugly. Machop is basically just a kid version of Machamp, but very slightly better (I still hate it though and it's still very bland) for at least having a tail. Machoke is somehow even worse than the other two of his line, he's extra ugly, has noticeable veins, and looks like he's slowly suffocating to death. Golem is also very bland, but at least he's not ugly and is a little more like a rock monster than just a rock (but barely)
And yet, they get to be essentially the mascots of their types, and as a result, some of the most well known pokemon. Geodude and Machamp are used as their typical Rock and Fighting type in the same way that, for example, Gengar is used as a ghost type. They get used a lot in basically all pokemon media, the anime and movies to merchandise to the cards to branding to just about fucking everything. I think Geodude is even the mascot of a Japanese prefecture or something along those lines? It feels like I see them in just about everything. But the most frustrating thing of all is how often they appear in the games, and by extension, taking away potential chances for other pokemon to appear. It feels like every fucking game, these two lines will appear. And they're usually very early in too, when you're trying to find some more team members. Seriously, how many games have a bland generic cave early on in the game (or at least early-mid) that mostly spawns Zubat, Geodude, and Machop? These guys are even used as an "intended" counter for one of the first gyms often too (and I refuse to use them out of spite). It's so annoying to keep seeing the same bland and ugly pokemon over and over again in nearly every game while so many other pokemon that, in my opinion, look far better and/or are much more interesting, cuter, or cooler, get far less appearances, and in some cases almost never appear in anything. Geodude never appeared in SWSH, while Machamp never appeared in SV, and I hoped that meant they would finally chill out with these two, and while maybe there's a chance that's the case with Geodude, clearly it isn't with Machamp considering he's in ZA as one of the only non-kalos pokemon in the game with no mega evolution (seriously, why not Conkeldurr if they wanted another fighting type line? I don't like that line either, but it's a perfect fit in a game about a redesigned Lumiose city, and it'd at least be more unique than having Machamp for the one trillionth time), and (putting this in spoiler text as it has to do with recent leaks)
The fact that it's been shown in very early gameplay screenshots for both the next two mainline games, and even seems to be one of the first pokemon to be given a new model for Gen 10
it doesn't seem like they're done shoving Machamp into everything yet.
Like, obviously mascots have to exist and be included much more than other pokemon, I have no problem with that. In fact, I think I've even said on here before that I find it weird when people hate on pokemon like Pikachu being in so much stuff when he's literally the series mascot, but the thing is, these two are some of the worst mascot choices for the series IMO, even for their typings. Comparing them to other pokemon that are used like a representative of a type of pokemon: Gengar is simple, but he's not really generic either and has a lot of personality and looks cool, making him a great Ghost type mascot/representative. Magikarp is funny because of how much its patheticness is played up, and then it's cool when it ends up evolving into a strong and cool looking dragon, and Psyduck is cute and has the headaches to make you feel bad for him. Mewtwo is cool and powerful and had a huge focus during the first movie, and has a good backstory. Clefable is cute and easily has the fairy vibe, while not looking like a generic fairy. The Magnemite line isn't one I'm huge on, but it represents its two typings well without being too generic and without being ugly, and Magnezone is cool. Zubat and Golbat are pretty bad, but at least Crobat is popular and is cooler than its pre evolutions. And then Machamp's personality is basically just "He's strong.......and........he's.......strong" and Geodude is literally just a rock. Like that's it, he's just a rock. I'd argue their role as being their type's mascot even makes those types look bad, as it makes the type as a whole seem bland and boring. Something that has at least some personality and identity would be much better as a mascot.
Now of course, all of this is just my opinion. But interestingly enough, for as often as they show up in stuff, I really don't see fans for either the Geodude or Machop lines often at all. And yet, they're used so frequently that they're even more well-known and "iconic" than a lot of even really popular kanto mons that, in my opinion, have much better designs, and are also more popular, like Arcanine, Ninetales, Sandslash, Dragonite, Rhydon, Aerodactyl, etc
This thread is interesting to me tbh, because I usually have very little dislike for any Pokemon. I kind of just, am not the type to hate them a ton. They either have their own charm, or they got screwed over by GF. But there are a few I've just, never liked.
This is a Pokemon that to me just encapsulates so much of what I disdain. It's a mean spirited lil guy and while I get the need for ecosystem balance, most Pokemon have something a bit nicer to them idk. Its design also used to scare me when I was younger. I don't know what it is. It's just offputting I guess, like a weird monster demon thing (well we are playing pocket monsters but yknow). It felt out of a horror movie almost.
And then sadly it represents a lot of what I don't like about the way Game Freak's doing stuff. This mon is hilariously overtuned to singles competitive play that it just ends up being an eyeroll, because unlike a lot of older mons, it really feels like that competitive attitude was in mind for its designing from the start. And it's not the fun type either, it just encourages ultra slow no risk play that rewards slow teams unfairly. Even the movies it learns are all mostly oriented around this and less about lore. It's just such a lame way to design a Pokemon to me. It almost feels artificial frankly.
So there's just not a ton in it for me with this one, leading to a relative dislike. It's also my ex's favorite Pokemon(is it ironic given how toxic she was?). So yeah, probably one of my most disliked mons.
This is a Pokemon that to me just encapsulates so much of what I disdain. It's a mean spirited lil guy and while I get the need for ecosystem balance, most Pokemon have something a bit nicer to them idk. Its design also used to scare me when I was younger. I don't know what it is. It's just offputting I guess, like a weird monster demon thing (well we are playing pocket monsters but yknow). It felt out of a horror movie almost.
And then sadly it represents a lot of what I don't like about the way Game Freak's doing stuff. This mon is hilariously overtuned to singles competitive play that it just ends up being an eyeroll, because unlike a lot of older mons, it really feels like that competitive attitude was in mind for its designing from the start. And it's not the fun type either, it just encourages ultra slow no risk play that rewards slow teams unfairly. Even the movies it learns are all mostly oriented around this and less about lore. It's just such a lame way to design a Pokemon to me. It almost feels artificial frankly.
So there's just not a ton in it for me with this one, leading to a relative dislike. It's also my ex's favorite Pokemon
Toxapex feeling unnatural, both in general and as a stall mon, is really weird to me because I was familiar with its inspiration since well before Gen 7 released.This thread is interesting to me tbh, because I usually have very little dislike for any Pokemon. I kind of just, am not the type to hate them a ton. They either have their own charm, or they got screwed over by GF. But there are a few I've just, never liked.
This is a Pokemon that to me just encapsulates so much of what I disdain. It's a mean spirited lil guy and while I get the need for ecosystem balance, most Pokemon have something a bit nicer to them idk. Its design also used to scare me when I was younger. I don't know what it is. It's just offputting I guess, like a weird monster demon thing (well we are playing pocket monsters but yknow). It felt out of a horror movie almost.
And then sadly it represents a lot of what I don't like about the way Game Freak's doing stuff. This mon is hilariously overtuned to singles competitive play that it just ends up being an eyeroll, because unlike a lot of older mons, it really feels like that competitive attitude was in mind for its designing from the start. And it's not the fun type either, it just encourages ultra slow no risk play that rewards slow teams unfairly. Even the movies it learns are all mostly oriented around this and less about lore. It's just such a lame way to design a Pokemon to me. It almost feels artificial frankly.
So there's just not a ton in it for me with this one, leading to a relative dislike. It's also my ex's favorite Pokemon(is it ironic given how toxic she was?). So yeah, probably one of my most disliked mons.
It's this guy, the Crown of Thorns Starfish:
Like most starfish, it's easily capable of regenerating lost limbs and eats by moving its stomach to the outside of its body and digesting the food directly. Unlike most starfish, it's covered in spines that aren't so much actively venomous as disposable parts of a body that has toxic chemicals in most of its tissues.
Really weird one but:
This is not beef in the "oh I hate this so much" way. It's moreso in the "what in god's name happened here" way. Game Freak did this one so dirty and I will never understand it. It was supposed to get a mega in X/Y but it was scrapped due to "oh we don't have ideas for this," despite the fact that there's plenty of good fanmade designs that encapsulates a Mega Flygon pretty well imo, and the common beef it has with people thinking about why this isn't Bug/Dragon. But it goes deeper. Eventually, I got a quick look at the Gen 3 betamons the Teraleak from a while ago provided, aaaaand...
So you're telling me that Flygon was SUPPOSED to be a Bug/Dragon type??? I understand why they wanted to make it Ground/Dragon, but the fact we could've had a Bug/Dragon SIX GENERATIONS AGO makes me really mad for some reason. That, and the fact it couldn't get a Mega Evolution. I don't understand Game Freak's thought processes behind this Pokemon and it makes me upset.
This is not beef in the "oh I hate this so much" way. It's moreso in the "what in god's name happened here" way. Game Freak did this one so dirty and I will never understand it. It was supposed to get a mega in X/Y but it was scrapped due to "oh we don't have ideas for this," despite the fact that there's plenty of good fanmade designs that encapsulates a Mega Flygon pretty well imo, and the common beef it has with people thinking about why this isn't Bug/Dragon. But it goes deeper. Eventually, I got a quick look at the Gen 3 betamons the Teraleak from a while ago provided, aaaaand...
So you're telling me that Flygon was SUPPOSED to be a Bug/Dragon type??? I understand why they wanted to make it Ground/Dragon, but the fact we could've had a Bug/Dragon SIX GENERATIONS AGO makes me really mad for some reason. That, and the fact it couldn't get a Mega Evolution. I don't understand Game Freak's thought processes behind this Pokemon and it makes me upset.
I mean, they did actually state their thought process for not giving it a mega in Gen VI - "we tried, but we couldn't come up with a good enough design" (paraphrasing). So that's that. I would assume the same goes for L:ZA, if they tried at all. Maybe it was considered (I actually have no idea - perhaps it'll be in one of the recent leaks?) and again, they just couldn't come up with a sufficiently liked design. Alternatively, maybe they agreed with the general sentiment of "Mega Flygon is too anticipated and will never please everyone" and decided not to try.
I would have liked a Bug/Dragon too, though - still do, very much - and if there ever is a Mega Flygon I think it should be first in line for that typing.
I made peace long ago with Flygon being ground/dragon because for whatever reason they decided to make the whole line ground and not bug.
But I am convinced that Slither Wing was designed with bug/dragon in mind and somebody at GameFreak complained that there were too many paradox dragons, and then they changed it to bug/fighting just so that it would have a 4x weakness like Volcarona and Iron Moth (completely ignoring the preponderance of fighting-type paradoxes). And I am still not over that. :P
But I am convinced that Slither Wing was designed with bug/dragon in mind and somebody at GameFreak complained that there were too many paradox dragons, and then they changed it to bug/fighting just so that it would have a 4x weakness like Volcarona and Iron Moth (completely ignoring the preponderance of fighting-type paradoxes). And I am still not over that. :P
On the topic of past Paradox mons, I'm really not seeing the point of Roaring Moon. Mega Salamence doesn't have any limbs that touch the ground because it's a more extreme version of regular Salamence achieving its dreams of flight. But that also means that a version of Mega Salamence that is more of a dragon/dinosaur and less of a Flyer is just non-Mega Salamence again.
Wait until GF decided to create a Bug / Dragon based on a pun like, say, turning a fly-like Pokémon like Volbeat/Illumise into a dragonfly. Or a line based on the Phrictus quinquepartitus, aka the “dragon-headed bug”. Not the kind of dragonfly we’d expect when we think of Bug / Dragon type, but goes to show that it’s not limited to one idea, either.
That does explains it’s high defenses and Poison-type, but the fact that it also has moves that don’t seem to gel with starfish other than “tee hee I’m malicious” or blatant competitive bias didn’t sit well. Regeneration + Recovery + very big bulk + Toxic immunity + Scald + Knock Off (back then at least) makes it immensively obnoxious to fight against.Toxapex feeling unnatural, both in general and as a stall mon, is really weird to me because I was familiar with its inspiration since well before Gen 7 released.
It's this guy, the Crown of Thorns Starfish:
Like most starfish, it's easily capable of regenerating lost limbs and eats by moving its stomach to the outside of its body and digesting the food directly. Unlike most starfish, it's covered in spines that aren't so much actively venomous as disposable parts of a body that has toxic chemicals in most of its tissues.
I still say Roaring Moon shouldn't have had wings. It's Past Salamence, flight should be a recent development.
So my read on Roaring Moon was that in practice it's more of a Glider than a Flyer. It still needs its legs to run and kick off with momentum, as opposed to base Salamence having flappable wings that it can use to gain lift. This would also be my explanation for why Roaring Moon, despite having a non-grounded Idle animation, does not have the Flying type like (Mega) Salamence (otherwise I'd have expected Dark/Flying like or instead of Iron Jugulis). One detail that isn't immediately apparent is that Roaring Moon is actually slightly bigger and MUCH heavier than Salamence: Roaring Moon is 2m and 380 kg vs 1.5-1.8m and 102-112 kg for Salamence and Mega. These proportions make me imagine the giant crescent wings and feathers on its back can catch wind but makes maintaining flight significantly less viable for it compared to the less dense and more aerodynamic "modern" relatives.
Mega Mence actually makes a neat progression from terrestrial Dragon with some gliding, to Flight Capable, to Flight Optimized with the Mega revisiting that design now that it's lightweight enough (relatively speaking) to achieve flight rather than just lift with it.
Fun Doublade Fact: after the Aegislash nerfs it actually has a higher Defense stat than it in Shield Form now
