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SPOILERS! OFFICIAL Pokemon Legends: Z-A Character POWER RANKINGS

Folks, we here at Smogon obsess over the most esoteric competitive minuta. It’s time that we dive into what really matters.

This new game had all sorts of quality characters, perhaps the best crop we’ve ever received. It’s important we discuss which is the most viable. Below I’ve provided you with a list with the correct answers. That said, please feel free to post your own thoughts on the cast before double checking with my answer key.


OFFICIAL Pokemon Legends: Z-A Character POWER RANKINGS

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HONORARY MENTION: CORBEAU

I know people are in love with this jackass. I acknowledge his skills with a human ladder. I just can’t vibe with this dude, no matter how hard I try. The game keeps insisting he's a good guy. I don’t know why we’re so casually overlooking that he maintains a system that manipulates people into taking out predatory loans.

I’m an American. My country is already full of people being preyed upon by endless scams and debt. I look at ESPN for 30 seconds and I see four sports gambling apps. Every online shopping portal has some “pay it in four” crap. I am surrounded by financial vultures already and it’s too close to home, even if they don’t have a cool Scolipede. Being suddenly saddled with debt I didn’t incur is a living nightmare. I also don’t like that he runs a syndicate that vaguely ascribes people easily manipulated into debt as scum. E-rated Yakuza doesn’t hit for me, sorry.

The name’s also weird: Corbeau. I get that its french for crow. Just, you can’t keep claiming to be generous when it’s this apparent you’re hogging all the vowels.


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#5 MABLE

Look, I’ll be honest. X and Y were great Pokemon games contemporaneously. I played like 600 hours of it, most of it in that first three month span on release where I absolutely choked it down. It ruled. I don’t know why we’ve all gone through a mass psychosis and forgotten that the first quarter of that game’s release was unreal fun.

With that said, I could not tell you hardly any of the names of the Team Flare administration. Lysandre’s a freebie, sure. I only remember Xerosic because of his meta-relevant trading card. I could not tell you a single name of any of the women in visors before this game if I tried. They made so little an impact in fact that I first thought Mable was a brand new character. Nope! She’s one those cult members, and she rules.

Finally, a professor who starts yelling when I enter a room. Every time we’re in front of her, I can feel the coffee and stress coursing through her veins. I’m not even going to mention her Pokédex missions suck and that the Hisuians figured out engaging Pokédex requirements like 160 years ago. She needs a break. She’s already under a house arrest equivalent. I’m just going to be a nice bright spot in her life, and maybe she might knock down the shiny charm battle requirements. She’s great. Not to mention, Mable continues the proud tradition of naming professors after trees, if you’re dyslexic.


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#4 EMMA

It is so funny watching people react to Emma on a first playthrough. People are smitten by her adorable design, or worse, and thoroughly enjoy her presence. Then, she leaves, and it all falls apart. Every drop of her charm evaporates one spagetti-dropping footstep at a time as she Naruto runs away.

Why is this animation in the game? Is it a reference to something? Honestly the Emma side story in XY is so incentiveless in terms of actual gameplay benefit I barely remember completing it. I do remember the cartoon short where she kicks the snot out of her Espurr, however, for which she receives bonus points.

Also isn’t her weird plug suit thing like the vehicle by which she was mind controlled for a whole ass side story? Why are you casually wearing it doing detective work? Whatever, get past your trauma however you need. Just keep that cute as hell beaming smile and please don’t engage in any rapid locomotion.


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#3 IVOR

Ivor and the Fists of Justice have such a great meta gag going already. You’re introduced to them almost the same way you’re shown N and Team Plasma in Black and White, a misfit group awkwardly disrupting the piece. Mentally I filed The Fists away as “oh they’re the evil team of this game”. Nope. Turns out they weren’t being weirdos in public for nefarious purposes. They’re just weirdos, led by Ivor, a man reciting heroic dialogue as often as he’s screaming at maximum volume.

He’s even got the little Falinks backpack on him hinting towards his mega! Isn’t that exciting, knowing what’s in store and going “oh wow, mega FALINKS is about to drop”!? No? You looked at all the new megas before the game came out? Have you considered waiting until Christmas to open your presents?

How can you not love Ivor? I have never met a man so excited to damage public property. I wish him well, as well all the smart phone inhabiting Rotom he’s made homeless. Can’t wait until the anime gets him voiced by Patrick Warburton.


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#2 NAVEEN

Naveen didn’t shine as remarkable at first. He came off as passable, another source of endless textboxes to trudge through. Whatever, this curry joke would be repeated seven times before the game’s over and I’d forget him like the heard of other Kalos rivals before him.

Then, it happened. Everything changed in that moment. I’ll never forget where I was on that fateful day, when a second Iono hit the franchise. Naveen is not defined solely by his dislike of nasty-looking food. He’s a chat member. He’s a long-gone chat member.

Everything that falls out of Naveen’s mouth the entire rank F chapter is some of the funniest stuff in a Pokemon game. The observations about stream culture are way too pointed for where it is. The whole chapter he’s a walking library of letourneau. God, they even give you a generic otaku super fan for him to rag on. Canari almost feels like a vehicle to tell jokes with Naveen, where I’d expect things the other way around given she’s way more marketable. Naveen is the best surprise in this game, and I hope his oshi keeps reading his supas.


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#1 JACINTHE

Folks, this is it. This is the fabled peak fiction. She's the best character in the whole game. An out of this world design with the most unhinged personality makes Jacinthe the queen of the whole franchise overnight.

“But sir!” I hear you begin. “Didn’t you just snub Corbeau from a ranked slot for hitting too close to home for real world social issues?” I did. Corbeau’s goons phone you to get what he wants. Jacinthe hijacks the holographic social infrastructure to personally project herself right in front of your face while you’re busy killing rabid wildlife. One of these is tangible and the other is a fairy princess demanding to get her way while keeping the sweetest smiling face on the whole time. I expected a crack at some point, for her to come up and show her real side, but nope. She’s just assaultingly cordial demanding insane things the entire time. She’s just that perfect.

Then you actually fight her. If a sequel to X and Y wasn’t already tossing you back to 2013, here’s some goddamn electro swing. Take a flying Clefable while you’re at it, why not. Just a shame it’s only one fight-NOPE. Jacinthe isn’t satisfied with a pedestrian single battle. No, you’re listening to her sick beat like six more times doing her special mission, as if you weren't already blasting it on replay in your headphones and car speaker.

We have not even touched upon Lebanne, the Sheer Heart Attack to Jacinthe’s Killer Queen. Lebanne should easily be ranked here in the top 5. It’s hard not to love a woman this constantly pushed to her limit. Her finally snapping and throwing lizards at you ruled. She did all this while wearing a maid outfit. The problem is, in detailing her, I’d have to detail Jacinthe, who is obviously number 1, and doesn’t deserve her name sullied in a place other than the top. Thus, Lebanne’s ranking is dragged up here as a sidenote. Don’t worry, Lebanne would have wanted it this way, after being instructed to want it by Jacinthe.

I can only hope she’s as spoiled with screentime as Cynthia in other pieces of the Pokemon media engine. After making 1025 of gaming’s most iconic characters, most of which you all know the names of far better than your coworkers, Gamefreak finally invented the best character. Here’s hoping Gamefreak knows what’s good for their revenue stream for the next game and includes Jacinthe again, and maybe a second, somehow more lavender Jacinthe.

--------

Please feel free to comment below about how good Jacinthe is, thank you.
 
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Pokémon is a reasonably heightened fantasy fiction setting, so Corbeau being a loan shark doesn’t really bother that much in this context, especially since it’s gradually revealed that the jobs he has people do are all really just relatively low-stakes chores and community service meant to make Lumiose a nicer place. Don’t get me wrong, his methods are unfair and extremely manipulative, but it’s exaggerated cartoon morality in a game that also wants me to sympathize with not one, but two architects of genocide. A setting like Pokémon is just about the only place where I would ever even be willing to do that.

On another note, I find it odd that I’ve seen sentiment in other places that Naveen is a “creep” because of his “obsession” with Canari. That feels like a misreading to me. Like, yeah, he’s a superfan, but that interest is hardly consuming his every waking hour, and he is in fact particular about maintaining a respectful distance from Canari as a person.
 
Hold it, arent we missing something? Sorry but I can't let someone with this quality of dialogue go unspoken for:

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If we want to talk about surprises of the game, we should probably talk about how well they handled Lida. The internet saw her design and hobby and labeled her simply the ghost of Tierno made manifest. A perky, plucky girl who likes to dance, while also being given the most controversial designed mega as a bonus. We braced ourselves for the disaster that was to come.

But it never came. Why? Because Lida is actually really fantastically done. She is so real at times I'm almost convinced she's an audience surogate. She can be fun and teasy at times, but she is also the team's main strategist, handing out all the Rogue Mega Evolution missions out to the end. And when things get complicated by events, she's not afraid to speak her mind and call people or other things out. yeah, it IS messed up to be saddled with a 1000% interest rate bill on someone else's behalf, and it IS messed up that the supposed Leader isn't around. Near the end of the game, sh sheepishly asks if they are helping because she DOES feel guilty about saddling you with most of the work. Its so funny watching streamers vocalize stuff with the plot and seconds later Lida saying those very same concerns. Its a wonderful breath of fresh air to have characters who just acknowledge stuff like that.

Not to mention her own backstory, where she is basically homeless after her plans to stardom fell from under her, unable to pay the sky high rent of Lumiose after her roommate got picked up instead of her, until AZ and Urbain/Taunie took her in. Like yikes, basically all of Team MZ is estranged to some extent, but Lida literally has nowhere else to go. Yet she still takes life with smile and dances on. Even when the great crisis of Kalos shows its face, its her that helps chart a path to get to our target of Zygarde to help save the day. What a legend, what a queen, what a friend.
 
Hold it, arent we missing something? Sorry but I can't let someone with this quality of dialogue go unspoken for:

View attachment 782645

If we want to talk about surprises of the game, we should probably talk about how well they handled Lida. The internet saw her design and hobby and labeled her simply the ghost of Tierno made manifest. A perky, plucky girl who likes to dance, while also being given the most controversial designed mega as a bonus. We braced ourselves for the disaster that was to come.

But it never came. Why? Because Lida is actually really fantastically done. She is so real at times I'm almost convinced she's an audience surogate. She can be fun and teasy at times, but she is also the team's main strategist, handing out all the Rogue Mega Evolution missions out to the end. And when things get complicated by events, she's not afraid to speak her mind and call people or other things out. yeah, it IS messed up to be saddled with a 1000% interest rate bill on someone else's behalf, and it IS messed up that the supposed Leader isn't around. Near the end of the game, sh sheepishly asks if they are helping because she DOES feel guilty about saddling you with most of the work. Its so funny watching streamers vocalize stuff with the plot and seconds later Lida saying those very same concerns. Its a wonderful breath of fresh air to have characters who just acknowledge stuff like that.

Not to mention her own backstory, where she is basically homeless after her plans to stardom fell from under her, unable to pay the sky high rent of Lumiose after her roommate got picked up instead of her, until AZ and Urbain/Taunie took her in. Like yikes, basically all of Team MZ is estranged to some extent, but Lida literally has nowhere else to go. Yet she still takes life with smile and dances on. Even when the great crisis of Kalos shows its face, its her that helps chart a path to get to our target of Zygarde to help save the day. What a legend, what a queen, what a friend.

I like how she's randomly in charge of meetings, even though taunie is leader. Also the commitment for a while to staying nfe, I do same.
 

It just so happened that I ended up doing the Rogue Mega Starmie task last of the final three Rogue Megas, which meant that Philippe gave Lida the Water Stone she’d been talking about wanting over the last few chapters in order to better contribute against them right before the big final Rogue Mega battle, which for Lida is a freshly-evolved Starmie vs Mega Starmie match. So it felt like a very cool, deliberate culmination moment even though that was just the order I happened to do those boss fights in.

(Similarly, when I had to get gussied up for Hotel Richissime — by the way, I was very disappointed that no one else on Team MZ changed their clothes; I wanted to see them all in top-dollar fits — I was thinking “this outfit is nice, but it’s missing something” and then I tried on the trilby hat that Naveen gave me early on, and it completed the look. So I ended up having nice full-circle moments with the two of them. Unfortunately I never had a moment that created a connection like that with Taunie. Maybe if she were around more...)

I also liked Lida but I can't stop thinking that they made the leader of the group named "lida"

It's like naming your boss "dabos"

Technically Urbain/Taunie is the official “leader” of MZ. Though frankly, I think Lida has a much stronger claim to that position, since all Urbaunie does is cook dinner and field emails from Vinnie…
 
Taunie/Urbain is under a lot of fire from the itnernet but thats also because media literacy is dead. They are flawed for sure but a ton of stuff that happens is outside their own bounds, kind of unfortunate. That said, did anyone notice Taunie and Urbain have different dialouge? Wonder if one is preferred more than the other.
 
I have a bone to pick with this list. This is a power ranking and Ivor isn't #1. He is very plainly the strongest trainer in the game. Have you seen what he can do? He can punch out an iron gate. He can punch out a brick wall. He can punch out the Pyroar at Zone 17. Clearly this list is factually wrong and must be edited accordingly.
 
I understand your rankings but imo Lida takes an easy top 3. Why?

Pok_mon_Legends_Z_A_Rogue_Mega_Starmie_Battle.gif


Because she fucking throws a dancing move before the Rogue Mega battle. I even thought it was just her basic pre-battle animation but no, she has an unique one just for the Rogue Megas. That was tight as shit, man, Tierno wishes he was half as cool as her.

also her eyes are pretty
 
Yeah no, screw Mable. I also didn’t remember her from XY, and she’s not memorable here apart from having her name attatached to an annoying grind. She really has no personality aside from being pissed off, and never does anything remotely helpful towards the player. One of the worst Professors (if not the worst) in the game, imo. (if you can call her that)

Shoutout to Tarragon as well. Not only do he and his team maintain the scaffolding, but he also controls a hologram of Canari to help her out. Good grandpa Tarragon.

Grisham I felt could’ve been done a bit better. Like, we have the Nouveau Cafe scene at the start but he doesn’t return until the climax and has very little time to be fleshed out. Feels like we could’ve had more expansion/hints earlier in the story to make me care about the character.

As an aside, I found this a really strong and memorable cast of characters overall. The various leaders and deputies of factions kind of taking the place of traditional Gym Leaders were all well done.
 
The whole cast of this game rocks. Being free from the Gym Leader archetype lets us see a lot more of these characters. One of the best-written games of the franchise, and almost certainly the funniest.

As someone who has met their fair share of professors I am glad to see Mable as representation in the "minutes away from fully crashing out at all times" subcategory of scientists.

Urbain/Taunie is also rapidly rising as a favourite for me. Them being momentarily stupid and getting us into debt is a great piece of character work that people online got really mad about because they can't read and/or didn't play the game. It's not even a major detour from game progression that you have to grind out or whatever, the arc lasts the length of one gym. Besides that, it's a great wrinkle in the previously infallible-looking leader of the friend group, and characters literally address it. It's nice that we have a rival that has similar protagonistic energy to you (the fact that they can literally win the final fight in canon is fantastic!) I wish they had spread out the jacket arc a bit more leading up to the epilogue, but it's still compelling against the game's wider themes of parents and children.

Philippe is a perfect goon character. Towering guy with a stapled-together suit. Recognized his calling as a goon immediately as soon as he realized Corbeau was smarter than him. "Anything you say, boss" type of guy.

L is great especially considering he was notoriously undercooked in XY. He's like AZ in XY if you saw much more of him and his regrets. The animation of him taking out the Key Stone in his fight, combined with the genuine difficulty of it and the gorgeous theme, is just fantastic.

Jacinthe and Lebanne are very fun characters. The former doesn't even really change her ways much, she just helps out of her own self-interest. Their relationship is obviously toxic and charged in a weird way that I'm glad they didn't explain enough. What is wrong with them lol
 
L is great especially considering he was notoriously undercooked in XY. He's like AZ in XY if you saw much more of him and his regrets. The animation of him taking out the Key Stone in his fight, combined with the genuine difficulty of it and the gorgeous theme, is just fantastic.
I haven't done his wrap up but I want to expand on this by saying Lysandre benefited greatly from Corbeau, Phillipe & Grisham existing.
Something I've commented on before is that anime Lysandre, including the websiode shorts, is made a lot more tolerable because you get to see him not hit the ground running with "I think the FILTH of the world should PERISH" -> "haha he is so passionate". Like hey turns out you can kind of understand how things broke bad (though I do think they still overtuned him in XY's dialog) when you see a flashback of him trying to provide aid to a disaster zone and seeing people tear themselves apart.
His philanthropy is really just a footnote in XY, so having characters who were affected by him in a positive light, talk about it and want to carry on those ideals goes a long way. Grisham in particular is good for seeing the cultish aspect of how that fell away.
 
Jacinthe's secret sauce is that she is the most aggressively Kalosian character ever, an elitist noble Fairy specialist with a Battle Maison-inspired tournament complete with a gag about her Fairies beating a Dragon specialist's ass into indentured servitude. All she needed was to also be somehow immortal
 
Like hey turns out you can kind of understand how things broke bad (though I do think they still overtuned him in XY's dialog) when you see a flashback of him trying to provide aid to a disaster zone and seeing people tear themselves apart.

I know I’m the unpopular opinion guy when it comes to this particular subject, and I don’t even particularly disagree with what you’re saying here overall, but I do want to say that personally I’m not a huge fan of stuff like this.

Much like with Rose getting a similar Freudian Excuse flashback in the anime where his dad died in a mining mishap or whatever, I feel like it tries too hard to come up with a logical, rational “justification” for the behavior of fundamentally irrational characters. People who are willing to commit genocide or trigger an apocalyptic event for self-aggrandizement are not rational individuals. They are wildly emotional, impulsive people with too much power and too few guardrails. It’s not as if it’s a common occurrence for relief workers to see the horrors of war up-close and decide that’s it, humanity is cooked, I need access to the nuclear codes right now.

To use a non-Pokémon example, it’s like Thanos in Infinity War. The movie has him briefly explain/show how his planet ran out of resources but how they also rejected his genocide plan and ended up perishing, and how that’s what motivates him, and yet people still say “lol why doesn’t he just use the Infinity Gauntlet to double all the resources?” It’s because he doesn’t fucking want to. He’s a madman with a power complex who wants to feel vindicated and therefore believes that this act of cosmic genocide is necessary, despite all of the logical holes in his theory, the existence of other solutions, the atrocious moral cost of doing it, and the refusal of consent from the people he wants to subject to it.

Lysandre arrived at the solution that he did through a horrible convergence of his own biases, beliefs, unrealistic expectations, and poor emotional control. The thing is, the world doesn’t actually need to be in crisis in order for some rich asshole with a messiah complex to think that it is, and that he alone understands how to fix it, which he is willing to do at any cost (except to himself, of course). And capturing that is exactly why one would depict a world that, while not completely perfect and utopian, is still basically stable and full of reasonable people, but is nevertheless deemed unsalvageable by one insane egomaniac.

To be clear, I get that the point you’re making here is really a more of a general “we should actually see his transition from well-meaning philanthropist to genocidal nutjob,” so I admit I’m using you as a springboard for a rant here. I think what mainly perplexes me with this kind of thing is just that it seems like a standard that is inconsistently applied to Pokémon villains.

Like, I get giving Giovanni a pass; early days and all that. But we don’t get flashbacks to the watershed moments that put them on the path of darkness for Maxie, Archie, Cyrus, Lusamine, Guzma, or Volo, either. Even N, really. It’s pretty much always delivered through text and dialogue, and Lysandre, like the rest, simply spells out what his deal is when we meet him in his laboratory. I can understand that approach not working for someone, but if that were all it was, I would expect most people to think that all Pokémon villains are crap, not just two or three of them. (Granted, I don’t think anyone thinks they’re masterclasses of writing, either. But people seem to like Volo well enough, you know?)

His philanthropy is really just a footnote in XY, so having characters who were affected by him in a positive light, talk about it and want to carry on those ideals goes a long way. Grisham in particular is good for seeing the cultish aspect of how that fell away.

This part, I do fully agree with. Because XY actually tried to do this, but the people whom Lysandre helped and was a positive influence for are literally just a couple of random NPCs across the map with dialogue that is very easily skipped or missed. Having a prominent character like Corbeau who has that relationship is an infinitely more effective way of getting the idea across. (And Sycamore was always more of a “oh, yeah, he’s a colleague of mine, and a great man” relationship rather than a beneficiary of Lysandre’s philanthropic efforts.)
 
I know I’m the unpopular opinion guy when it comes to this particular subject, and I don’t even particularly disagree with what you’re saying here overall, but I do want to say that personally I’m not a huge fan of stuff like this.

.....

Like, I get giving Giovanni a pass; early days and all that. But we don’t get flashbacks to the watershed moments that put them on the path of darkness for Maxie, Archie, Cyrus, Lusamine, Guzma, or Volo, either. Even N, really. It’s pretty much always delivered through text and dialogue, and Lysandre, like the rest, simply spells out what his deal is when we meet him in his laboratory. I can understand that approach not working for someone, but if that were all it was, I would expect most people to think that all Pokémon villains are crap, not just two or three of them. (Granted, I don’t think anyone thinks they’re masterclasses of writing, either. But people seem to like Volo well enough, you know?)
I think I'm harsher on Lysandre because he starts out as someone everyone is meant to like but he's already at 11 when we meet him and he goes to significant more extremes, then tries to have you sympathize with him. There's a dissonance that just doesn't land for me

Lusamine, the other primary antagonist we're definitely meant to sympathize with, meanwhile does work for me. She's always a bit...much, but the bulk of Aether follows what seem to be true ideals. The dark side of Aether is kept away from the public and most of the rest of Aether. Lillie has frequent asides about why her relationship with Lusamine is complicated, what she used to be like. You get that aside about what happened to Mohn, which set her down a path. And you have enough information about her as a person to see why that path pivoted a few more times. and i gained more appreciation of her post-fallout after finding the USUM extra dialogs 99% people will never see lmao

I focused in on the disaster relief thing just because I do think it's nice to see the general populace in a harsh situation react like that (you don't really have that in XY), and having that be one of several other off screen thoughts that lead to his cascade (rather than THE watershed moment), but the anime also has a point of having him be more...nice? Controlled. Involved! One of the webisodes has a "sign off" thing from him where they play a speech of his and something like that goes a long way to go "OK, I can see how this guy meant well at one point. I can see why people respect him and think he's a good man. "

Like you say it's about the approach. For the record since this kind of thing keeps getting added to him, I do think we'd have gotten a bit more of this in Z version. It definitely seemed on their mind and seems like an easy point of expansion. Not a full overhaul & certainly not new primary characters like Z-A has, but we know they do look at stuff like this and even Platinum added in some extra details & speeches for Cyrus, and yo ucan easily see how they might tweak some of his speeches, add some mroe viewpoitns from other characters or put in more NPCs that talk about his works or poitn of view. Little stuff here & there that would add together and would go a long way. Probably still memed on but I mean......only so much can do. Still!
 
  • Saves and redeems the villain from the prequel
  • Gives you a pebble
  • Guides you to fight your first Rogue Mega Evolution
  • Crashes the tournament unannounced and participates on it anyway
  • Has 3 themes, the last being one of the best legendary themes ever
  • Saves the entire world
  • Uses a Z-Move in a game without Zs
  • Has the only triple stage boss fight in the game
  • Is a good boy
I'm sorry, but there's only one character that can be number one
1000105956.jpg
 
I haven't done his wrap up but I want to expand on this by saying Lysandre benefited greatly from Corbeau, Phillipe & Grisham existing.
Something I've commented on before is that anime Lysandre, including the websiode shorts, is made a lot more tolerable because you get to see him not hit the ground running with "I think the FILTH of the world should PERISH" -> "haha he is so passionate". Like hey turns out you can kind of understand how things broke bad (though I do think they still overtuned him in XY's dialog) when you see a flashback of him trying to provide aid to a disaster zone and seeing people tear themselves apart.
His philanthropy is really just a footnote in XY, so having characters who were affected by him in a positive light, talk about it and want to carry on those ideals goes a long way. Grisham in particular is good for seeing the cultish aspect of how that fell away.
I know I’m the unpopular opinion guy when it comes to this particular subject, and I don’t even particularly disagree with what you’re saying here overall, but I do want to say that personally I’m not a huge fan of stuff like this.

Much like with Rose getting a similar Freudian Excuse flashback in the anime where his dad died in a mining mishap or whatever, I feel like it tries too hard to come up with a logical, rational “justification” for the behavior of fundamentally irrational characters. People who are willing to commit genocide or trigger an apocalyptic event for self-aggrandizement are not rational individuals. They are wildly emotional, impulsive people with too much power and too few guardrails. It’s not as if it’s a common occurrence for relief workers to see the horrors of war up-close and decide that’s it, humanity is cooked, I need access to the nuclear codes right now.

To use a non-Pokémon example, it’s like Thanos in Infinity War. The movie has him briefly explain/show how his planet ran out of resources but how they also rejected his genocide plan and ended up perishing, and how that’s what motivates him, and yet people still say “lol why doesn’t he just use the Infinity Gauntlet to double all the resources?” It’s because he doesn’t fucking want to. He’s a madman with a power complex who wants to feel vindicated and therefore believes that this act of cosmic genocide is necessary, despite all of the logical holes in his theory, the existence of other solutions, the atrocious moral cost of doing it, and the refusal of consent from the people he wants to subject to it.

Lysandre arrived at the solution that he did through a horrible convergence of his own biases, beliefs, unrealistic expectations, and poor emotional control. The thing is, the world doesn’t actually need to be in crisis in order for some rich asshole with a messiah complex to think that it is, and that he alone understands how to fix it, which he is willing to do at any cost (except to himself, of course). And capturing that is exactly why one would depict a world that, while not completely perfect and utopian, is still basically stable and full of reasonable people, but is nevertheless deemed unsalvageable by one insane egomaniac.

To be clear, I get that the point you’re making here is really a more of a general “we should actually see his transition from well-meaning philanthropist to genocidal nutjob,” so I admit I’m using you as a springboard for a rant here. I think what mainly perplexes me with this kind of thing is just that it seems like a standard that is inconsistently applied to Pokémon villains.

Like, I get giving Giovanni a pass; early days and all that. But we don’t get flashbacks to the watershed moments that put them on the path of darkness for Maxie, Archie, Cyrus, Lusamine, Guzma, or Volo, either. Even N, really. It’s pretty much always delivered through text and dialogue, and Lysandre, like the rest, simply spells out what his deal is when we meet him in his laboratory. I can understand that approach not working for someone, but if that were all it was, I would expect most people to think that all Pokémon villains are crap, not just two or three of them. (Granted, I don’t think anyone thinks they’re masterclasses of writing, either. But people seem to like Volo well enough, you know?)



This part, I do fully agree with. Because XY actually tried to do this, but the people whom Lysandre helped and was a positive influence for are literally just a couple of random NPCs across the map with dialogue that is very easily skipped or missed. Having a prominent character like Corbeau who has that relationship is an infinitely more effective way of getting the idea across. (And Sycamore was always more of a “oh, yeah, he’s a colleague of mine, and a great man” relationship rather than a beneficiary of Lysandre’s philanthropic efforts.)
I've discussed this before but I have come to believe that the reason why most Pokemon antagonists before Alolaish largely didn't land is because of Game Freak's struggle to reconcile their existence with the gym challenge being the main thrust of progression and boss encounters. It was fine with Team Rocket because they were goofy cartoon gangsters but once they started introducing villains whose plans range from "global terraforming" to "nuke everything and create a grand kingdom from the ashes populated by an immortal enlightened ubermensch" they had to completely restructure everything to actually make these guys the biggest threat of their whole games and they simply didn't do that. Imagine any other RPG doing this, like what if in Final Fantasy 7 you beat Sephiroth at the 70% complete mark and that whole plot largely receded into the background as you promptly moved on to challenging The Champion of Midgar who for some reason never intervened beyond some light scolding. Alola is good because of how they build up the island challenge and how it informs the motivations of one of the main antagonists, as well as the founding of the Pokemon League itself. The two aspects have actual symbiosis going on, whereas beforehand gyms and the villain plots had nothing to do with each other, the Unova games notwithstanding.

The point is that the single most meaningful addition to Lysandre in Z-A isn't any one bit of dialogue or the new characters that tie back to him (although those certainly help out a lot and having characters like that is another reason why SM+USUM stood out compared to past entries), but merely the fact he is a fairly challenging final trainer boss with a team of 6 featuring cool, thematically sound picks (I've been saying for years that he should've had Florges so I'm very glad Game Freak came to the same conclusion). It really cannot be understated how much more seriously I am able to take him now that he is actually being presented as a top-of-the-line trainer in-universe, a force that could give many champions a run for their money. In a videogame an antagonist's writing doesn't have to hyper-optimized, just make a memorable play experience and the fans will happily and lovingly fill in the blanks!

The upshot of all this is that I'm now very curious what they could've done with a proper revisit of Cyrus (no, Volo doesn't count although he's cool for all the reasons I just went over).
 
I've discussed this before but I have come to believe that the reason why most Pokemon antagonists before Alolaish largely didn't land is because of Game Freak's struggle to reconcile their existence with the gym challenge being the main thrust of progression and boss encounters. It was fine with Team Rocket because they were goofy cartoon gangsters but once they started introducing villains whose plans range from "global terraforming" to "nuke everything and create a grand kingdom from the ashes populated by an immortal enlightened ubermensch" they had to completely restructure everything to actually make these guys the biggest threat of their whole games and they simply didn't do that. Imagine any other RPG doing this, like what if in Final Fantasy 7 you beat Sephiroth at the 70% complete mark and that whole plot largely receded into the background as you promptly moved on to challenging The Champion of Midgar who for some reason never intervened beyond some light scolding. Alola is good because of how they build up the island challenge and how it informs the motivations of one of the main antagonists, as well as the founding of the Pokemon League itself. The two aspects have actual symbiosis going on, whereas beforehand gyms and the villain plots had nothing to do with each other, the Unova games notwithstanding.

The point is that the single most meaningful addition to Lysandre in Z-A isn't any one bit of dialogue or the new characters that tie back to him (although those certainly help out a lot and having characters like that is another reason why SM+USUM stood out compared to past entries), but merely the fact he is a fairly challenging final trainer boss with a team of 6 featuring cool, thematically sound picks (I've been saying for years that he should've had Florges so I'm very glad Game Freak came to the same conclusion). It really cannot be understated how much more seriously I am able to take him now that he is actually being presented as a top-of-the-line trainer in-universe, a force that could give many champions a run for their money. In a videogame an antagonist's writing doesn't have to hyper-optimized, just make a memorable play experience and the fans will happily and lovingly fill in the blanks!

The upshot of all this is that I'm now very curious what they could've done with a proper revisit of Cyrus (no, Volo doesn't count although he's cool for all the reasons I just went over).
Hey just to make sure: you haven't actually played the game right because Lysandre's battle is deep into the post game and most people probably wont interact with it.
 
Hey just to make sure: you haven't actually played the game right because Lysandre's battle is deep into the post game and most people probably wont interact with it.
Doesn't really change my point but is it noticeably harder to access than Volo? I thought it was a similar chunk of playtime where you do some errands including catching Xerneas and Yveltal
 
Doesn't really change my point but is it noticeably harder to access than Volo? I thought it was a similar chunk of playtime where you do some errands including catching Xerneas and Yveltal
Mmm hard to say since I'm kind of ducking in & out doing other stuff. Could be?
I will say I'm nottttt entirely sure how much the team itself will resonate with people, high levels or otherwise. People get on Diantha's case a lot for her team of honestly not bad Pokemon. Lysandre has the maligned Garbodor & a Sableye.

I'll see how it goes in practice though. Volo, aside from his team, also had a lot of memorable aesthetics going on.


I'll also say I just kinda dont agree with the the thought that pre-Alola teams didn't resonate with people or that people just really want one really good team to elevate things. There's a big mixture of things that vary game to game, character to character, plot to plot. So I'm a bit off tilt from the jump on your thesis.
 
I'll also say I just kinda dont agree with the the thought that pre-Alola teams didn't resonate with people or that people just really want one really good team to elevate things. There's a big mixture of things that vary game to game, character to character, plot to plot. So I'm a bit off tilt from the jump on your thesis.
Oh of course the evil teams aren't the only thing the older games are evaluated on, that's not what I meant to imply at all. That said, when looked at in the aggregate, there is a trend of them being some of the weak links in their respective titles
-Johto Team Rocket is an inoffensive timewaster but very obviously not remotely considered the highlight of GSC nor HGSS in any capacity
-Magma & Aqua were a pretty big dud for a long while outside of memes (at least I think they were? My earliest memories of the online Pokemon fanbase are from the leadup to SM so if there was a big vein of Maxie & Archie truthers before that point my apologies for the ignorance but somehow I doubt it). ORAS did a fairly good job sprucing them up within the confines of the original games' structure but there were still issues and they never really stood a chance against the Unova and Alola antagonists, remaining more as cult favorites
-Plasma had none of the structural problems I went over and sure enough people actually really ended up liking N/Ghetsis/Colress et al
-Flare has been memed on as being kind of pathetic for over a decade now so yeah

Pre-2010s the relative most successful attempt at a Pokevillain looking only at the mainline games was Cyrus (he got 5 unique mons in Platinum, better than anyone else up to that point!), and even he was largely overshadowed by Cynthia as the defining big boss encounter of his game. Kanto Team Rocket mostly gets by thanks to general Pokemania nostalgia making just about every Kanto thing iconic + Jessie & James in the anime.

When people reminisce on Emerald they think about, like, the fun map design theming and the well-designed gym battles and Rayquaza and the Battle Frontier. I know better than anyone that there are fans for the early gen team leaders given the spaces I hang out/lurk in but they are generally fairly niche things relative to what the median Pokemon fan finds most striking about the classic era games
 
Jacinthe's secret sauce is that she is the most aggressively Kalosian character ever, an elitist noble Fairy specialist with a Battle Maison-inspired tournament complete with a gag about her Fairies beating a Dragon specialist's ass into indentured servitude. All she needed was to also be somehow immortal

Well, I didn't see her dying...

Doesn't really change my point but is it noticeably harder to access than Volo? I thought it was a similar chunk of playtime where you do some errands including catching Xerneas and Yveltal

Didn't play PLA but don't you fight Volo and then he summons Giratina as the climax battle? If yes then Lysandre comes much, much later (aka "I am in the postgame and had no idea there was a Lysandre battle").
 
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