What if the next gen game gyms weren't monotype but instead strategy-centric?

You're walking into a coastal town and in any other game you might think this is the Water gym, but nope, the gym leader leads with a Rain Dance Bronzong, plus Water types and non-Water types that support or leverage that. The desert town has a Sandstorm-centric team. By the 7th or 8th gym what would normally be a Psychic or Ghost gym is actually a Trick Room user with a fair type variety and some slow heavy hitters.

The rules would be double battle, you can see the gym leader's 6 pokemon (and technically they "see" yours) but each of you can only pick 4, somewhere after the 4th gym is your first Miltank-style terror, where the gym leaders start to punish sweeper low utility teams. With these rules in mind, how would you design some of these gym leader teams? What popular strategies would they each center on?
 
To be honest, I think that mimicking VGC like this is a terrible idea. Any attempt at getting the AI to understand team preview is extremely likely to be full of holes. Sure, we can grab the Battle Dome AI out of storage, but it has no understanding of strategy beyond type matchups and chooses its lead entirely at random. I get the impression that major parts of this would need to be faked with a set team selection and leads to work. Same as why the Battle Tree Serperior only knows Leaf Storm: picking the nonstandard option when it shouldn't is more common than when that option is actually correct, so just force the standard option. Of course, the jig will be up about a week after release, and that's assuming there's no trace of it in the inevitable datamine.

There's also little point in giving the player access to team preview ingame: they can already change out their full team of 6 easily between gyms. Even for a gauntlet like the E4, any downtime to heal is also an opportunity to swap out the lead mon(s). You'd have to put effort into obfuscating something that's usually telegraphed by character design just to give team preview some use right at the end of the game. Once. If the player does lose, they then already know what's coming and don't need the preview any more. And that's assuming the player isn't running four main mons and two fillers that never see play.
 
I'm a strong advocate for gyms to be better, but to me, that means the gym should teach the player something and test them on it. As it is, they just test whether you know the type chart. But swapping to "specific strategy" doesn't fix that problem. Rather, Gamefreak needs to sit down and decide what the purpose of each gym is. Build the gyms to accomplish that, and the end result will be much more focused than what we've gotten so far.
 
To be honest, I think that mimicking VGC like this is a terrible idea.
While I advocate for the games to be more Doubles-centric (or at least use the format a bit more during PvE) I am also in agreement here. Outside of the issues with programming the CPUs like you mention, it is asking for a level of team synergy that's unfair to expect of a casual player outside of maybe the final Gym and League.

I do like the idea of Doubles teams centered around specific strategies to illustrate the capabilities of the format, but the design needs to be very carefully considered to ensure there are multiple ways to tackle the fights and also so they don't roll over players.
 
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While I advocate for the games to be more Doubles-centric (or at least use the format a bit more during PvE) I am also in agreement here. Outside of the issues with programming the CPUs like you mention, it is asking for a level of team synergy that's unfair to expect of a casual player outside of maybe the final Gym and League.

I do like the idea of Doubles teams centered around specific strategies to illustrate the capabilities of the format, but the design needs to be very carefully considered to ensure there are multiple ways to tackle the fights and also ensure they don't roll over players.
You can't do "some" doubles and expect players to like it. The problem with PvE doubles so far is that, for most games, it's fewer than 5 battles that use double mechanics. You're not putting Protect or Follow Me on your moveset to deal with a single gym, you're just going to level up whatever you have and steamroll the clever boss. Make it a whole game of doubles, that way there's incentive for the player to use doubles-focused moves and strategies.
 
it's easy for seasoned battlers to forgot the breadth of skill levels across pokemon's playerbase. a lot of people really don't interface with pokemon outside of playing through the main story and the ways they might construct their team is far too large to narrow down. the gyms being type-based is definitely a relic of the first generations, but make things too complex and you're inevitably going to push away people you don't need to be.

a core issue with making pokemon difficult is that so many tools are available that any potentially "difficult" fight can be made trivial just by foresight. an initial playthrough can be tough blind but the replayability of these games largely comes down to user-based stipulations: this is why nuzlocks are so popular, and nuzlocks are difficult precisely because they limit your available options to an extreme degree compared to usual gameplay.

and yeah as others have said, pokemon is so impossibly complex that trying to craft an ai that isn't just cheating every turn can't really happen. honest if you want the ai to be scarier just make it less predictable, have some trainer ai systems randomly switch or read your switch out with a stray coverage. simpler is better here imo.

i dont find vgc-styled battles to be the best route, losing fights isnt much of a punishment anyhow and letting a player know the opponent's team is either too much info for experienced players or sorta irrelevant for newer ones who may not even know what a particular pokemon does. again, much of a pokemon game's difficulty is going to come from a first playthrough where each battle is its own new puzzle you need to work through. once you know the solution to said puzzle the best way to make it harder is let players go at it themselves. (ive been doing a fairly painful run of scarlet where i can only use monotypes that don't have evolutionary lines, and a number of fights asked a lot of my planning skills and its been quite fun to work through.)

really to make gyms more interesting they need to have them stand out more beyond "uses one type." sv has really lackluster gyms as many fights eschew available type variety just to tera back into their designated type: having a pure fairy like florges would make the psychic gym much harder, but by this point you know the tera is coming so you just click the dark move again and win. larry and iono are the only gym leaders to use tera in a novel way, the former is making their ace hit even harder with normal stab, while the latter uses a pokemon whose ability renders electric's sole weakness completely useless. i get the appeal of giving a pokemon a new type it can take advantage of allows for more unique encounters (the grass sudowoodo can be a real pain for unprepared players) but it just serves to make fights that already have clear winpaths even less of an obstacle.

i agree with the notion of having gyms be less type spam and more strategy focused: there is value in giving a player type-biased battles as they can apply extra pressure on your team's weaknesses, but the reverse is that some gyms are laughably easy. so rather then a poison gym leader being "can you ko 5 poison types" it should instead adhere to a theme relating to said type. poison is often associated with defensive and wearing the opponent down, so you give the gym leader like three poisons good at sticking around and spreading damage with two non-poisons to help shore up the team's weakness. this creates a much more tactical encounter where you need to leverage more than the 2-3 pokemon that eat poison-types for breakfast. having special battle parameters would also be nice, ive seen some romhacks that will give a fire gym permanent sun to make each encounter play different from your regular one while also amping up the threat level. that's a bit much for how modern pokemon balances itself, but like, a psychic gym fight that has trick room active the whole match can really force a player out of their comfort zone and learn to improvise, whilst also teaching them how a perceived detriment, like low speed, can be converted to an advantage.

The problem with PvE doubles so far is that, for most games, it's fewer than 5 battles that use double mechanics.
frankly this is an issue that shouldn't exist, sv throws doubles-centric mechanics at you the whole game and the only required fights outside of dlc are the titan battles with arven (who you can't control), the scripted area zero battles (also with ai pokemon) and ryme's gym (whose feature battle has a pretty terrible gimmick that makes the fight way too feast or famine to have any sound strategy). like all they needed to do is add more double battles throughout the game so players understand "ah, this move may not be good in a 1v1, but has great upsides in a 2v2, so i should consider holding onto it when possible." the extremely lax relearner mechanics only applify this. getting you first party-wide (and ONLY) double battles by the 7th gym is a massive failure on the game's end, this should have been established after you've done like 3 questline fights, with multiple opportunities after.
 
At some level, forcing gyms to be monotype feels like a good way to keep the fights manageable for the lower optimization of ingame teams while still leaving room for better teambuilding synergy. Does the Rock leader really need Ferrothorn when Cradily also keeps Water types from auto-winning? I'd still be wary of mono-Water Rain, though.

If we're focusing entirely on shifting to other mechanics as the boss themes, I feel like both singles and doubles have lesser-used gimmicks that can be built around to make a reasonable challenge rather than jumping straight to meta archetypes. We still don't have a proper Plus/Minus fight with Magnetic Flux and Gear Up included, for example. Arguably, this means that singles is better suited to demonstrate weather/terrain/trick room synergy because it's less effective with them.
 
I would rather not have every Pokémon Gym be a Raihan clone, but part of that sentiment is because I just don’t like Raihan and a handful of the other more recent Gym Leaders as characters. I can maybe see an argument that Galar’s other Gym Leaders especially Marnie and Piers who are the only ones I actually like, have something in their personality, theming, or presentation that concretely tells the player what kind of Pokémon they like. What part of Raihan’s personality or designs says “Sandstorm team”?

I think this is a neat idea, but only if the developers specifically lean into those strategies and not into a shared typing. If they want to do this, they should go all the way, not stop halfway through like Raihan does. Something I would like to see, though, are more teams that are themed around the characters themselves- for example, instead of Nessa using all Water-Types, she could use a team that may still have a Water-Type or two but is primarily focused around her modeling career. I feel like this would make the Pokémon world feel much more immersive and lived in than the Gym Leaders, especially in Galar, feeling like obligatory checkpoint requirements for an extremely linear story.
 
I would rather not have every Pokémon Gym be a Raihan clone, but part of that sentiment is because I just don’t like Raihan and a handful of the other more recent Gym Leaders as characters. I can maybe see an argument that Galar’s other Gym Leaders especially Marnie and Piers who are the only ones I actually like, have something in their personality, theming, or presentation that concretely tells the player what kind of Pokémon they like. What part of Raihan’s personality or designs says “Sandstorm team”?
The character writing for Gym Leaders can frequently have little to no thematic or direct tie to their type designation or team design so I don't know why you're bringing it up. Brock is just a dude with rocks. Brawly is a surfer dude that specializes in Fighting-types. Elesa is a model who focuses on Electric. Katy is a cook who uses Bugs. Et cetera. Maybe I'm missing something with a few of them, but sometimes there's no obvious connection (or a dumb pun-based one maybe) and that's fine.

Concerning your next point, it is very hard to reconcile giving a team a theme with it also being a deliberately designed boss encounter. Those things don't necessarily correlate to each other.
 
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I would rather not have every Pokémon Gym be a Raihan clone, but part of that sentiment is because I just don’t like Raihan and a handful of the other more recent Gym Leaders as characters. I can maybe see an argument that Galar’s other Gym Leaders especially Marnie and Piers who are the only ones I actually like, have something in their personality, theming, or presentation that concretely tells the player what kind of Pokémon they like. What part of Raihan’s personality or designs says “Sandstorm team”?

I think this is a neat idea, but only if the developers specifically lean into those strategies and not into a shared typing. If they want to do this, they should go all the way, not stop halfway through like Raihan does. Something I would like to see, though, are more teams that are themed around the characters themselves- for example, instead of Nessa using all Water-Types, she could use a team that may still have a Water-Type or two but is primarily focused around her modeling career. I feel like this would make the Pokémon world feel much more immersive and lived in than the Gym Leaders, especially in Galar, feeling like obligatory checkpoint requirements for an extremely linear story.
Interestingly for Nessa, the generic Beauty trainers do seem to favour Water-types (with the exception of B2W2, where they are copying Elesa's preferred type instead). I almost feel like I need to blame Dexit here: none of Horsea, Luvdisc, Clamperl, Finneon, or Staryu are in base Swsh, while Milotic would be ridiculous at her point in the story (though I'd definitely have put it in for rematches). There's a nonzero argument that having Goldeen is the closest they could get.
 
Honestly, while i'm inherently opposed to the idea of fully switching to doubles for the story, I wouldn't mind seeing a departure from the classic "we use this type" gym format. Something like a gym where the theme is "pokemon with synergistic abilities" instead, with a theme of Bron(zor/zong) switching between Levitate or Heatproof for the gym trainers would be my kinda thing. Doesn't need to be anything insane difficulty wise, but just a switchup would be cool I feel.
 
my question is why are we against the ai "cheating". theres no reason to act like its to keep the game fair, because it often results in even the smart ai being dumb as rocks, extremely easy to fool and being unuseable if you want to create more strategic battles

the ai is at a severe disavantage, let it cheat. let it know things that arent displayed, let it predict your switches sometimes.

also i dont like this narrative that its impossible to make the ai good. you dont need to pull off vgc strategies to have a good boss, you just need natural synergy and denial of the usual low commitment snowballing that players can do by just having a super effective move.

and if the player wants to overlevel and destroy the gym who gives a shit lol thats their prerogative
 
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Colosseum/XD yet because this... is basically what they are, to a certain degree. Like, there aren't gyms but there are colosseum challenges, and each of the major bosses can broadly be equated to gym leaders (I'm sure someone will disagree with me on this, but the main series doesn't have that many story bosses who aren't gym leaders; it's typically just the evil team leader and your rival).

But because the game is doubles-centric there's very few type-focused bosses. There's a couple, I think, but for the most part boss trainers rely on strategy rather than type. And then of course Orre Colosseum follows this trend, though it's not part of the main story campaign.

All this to say that a game in which gyms focused on strategy rather than being monotype would... probably look like this. That, or something more akin to what BDSP tried to do with NPCs, but that game was largely hobbled by having to follow the existing team picks from the originals - Saturn is the only real example I can think of where they twisted his team in a quite creative fashion to give him a Rain Dance strategy. You could absolutely make similar strategies work in singles, there's just less room for innovation since doubles allows so much more room to operate.
 
my question is why are we against the ai "cheating". theres no reason to act like its to keep the game fair, because it often results in even the smart ai being dumb as rocks, extremely easy to fool and being unuseable if you want to create more strategic battles

the ai is at a severe disavantage, let it cheat. let it know things that arent displayed, let it predict your switches sometimes.

also i dont like this narrative that its impossible to make the ai good. you dont need to pull off vgc strategies to have a good boss, you just need natural synergy and denial of the usual low commitment snowballing that players can do by just having a super effective move.

and if the player wants to overlevel and destroy the gym who gives a shit lol thats their prerogative

People read too much into the part where the AI "sees" your team and you see theirs, thats why I put it in quotations "see", because in practice the feature would only serve for the player to choose their 4 pokemon, the gym leader is going to have 6 pokemon with some variations on its main strategy but there's no way it could be realistic to think it would be sophisticated enough that it would choose pokemon based on your team and any other information, its so absurd I didn't think people would even pay mind to it and it seemed self-evident but it still made people get distracted when the explicit main point of this thought experiment was to make pokemon battles more interesting so people could feel like they're fighting against an actual live opponent instead of the usual monotype cheese. So I opted for pseudo-VCG styles since it feels that'd be much easier to show those strategies than with 1-on-1.
 
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