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Pokemon that disappointed you in-game despite looking good initially?

Zangoose sprite from Ruby & Sapphire
After using Zangoose in my Ruby run, I think I kinda got the memo why a few Pokemon like Lunatone are kinda underwhelming. Zangoose isn't a bad Pokemon, but I felt like even with the Experience Share with limited battles but not taking the share away much, getting it to the necassary level and keep up with the opponent's pokemon is really hard.
I saw the appeal and thought there is no way this thing is gonna disappoint.
- it has Swords Dance as you catch it
- you have Strength by the time you get it meaning 80 base power move
- you can save a lot of pp with Slash and Crush Claw until you get TM30 and TM37
But often I found myself underleveled which should not be an issue because you could just set up. In practice it did not turn out well because it wasn't as bulky and I didn't have means to weaken my enemy Pokemon to set up. If I could, I would just use my starter and sweep the gym that way. That comes to the issue that I picked Torchic and Blaziken just made Zangoose obsolete for the most part.
Even against Tate and Liza, I could not just set up and sweep with SD + Shadow Ball. Zangoose was defeated before I could get to attack.
Generally I think I could have done better if I let it do more major battles instead letting it get mostly exp share means of grinding. I mean I used Loudred to stomp most trainers in-game and Zangoose is like a lot stronger naturally.
Maybe in a future run, I will let it participate in more battles to gain experience and invest a little bit more time grinding. I definitively overestimated it a bit too much that I did only minimal grinding.
 
mertyville said:
Zangoose sprite from Ruby & Sapphire
After using Zangoose in my Ruby run, I think I kinda got the memo why a few Pokemon like Lunatone are kinda underwhelming. Zangoose isn't a bad Pokemon, but I felt like even with the Experience Share with limited battles but not taking the share away much, getting it to the necassary level and keep up with the opponent's pokemon is really hard.
I saw the appeal and thought there is no way this thing is gonna disappoint.
- it has Swords Dance as you catch it
- you have Strength by the time you get it meaning 80 base power move
- you can save a lot of pp with Slash and Crush Claw until you get TM30 and TM37
But often I found myself underleveled which should not be an issue because you could just set up. In practice it did not turn out well because it wasn't as bulky and I didn't have means to weaken my enemy Pokemon to set up. If I could, I would just use my starter and sweep the gym that way. That comes to the issue that I picked Torchic and Blaziken just made Zangoose obsolete for the most part.
Even against Tate and Liza, I could not just set up and sweep with SD + Shadow Ball. Zangoose was defeated before I could get to attack.
Generally I think I could have done better if I let it do more major battles instead letting it get mostly exp share means of grinding. I mean I used Loudred to stomp most trainers in-game and Zangoose is like a lot stronger naturally.
Maybe in a future run, I will let it participate in more battles to gain experience and invest a little bit more time grinding. I definitively overestimated it a bit too much that I did only minimal grinding.
I feel SD Zangoose is a trap.

That mon has been paper thin since day 1, how can someone set it up? I'd rather go for Crush Claw's 50% Def drop so even if it goes down, it definitely did something.
 

Ruby and Sapphire has way too many water types. You need surf to get the good rod to get these things. Lucky me, I caught one at lv27 so just 3 levels to get Crawdaunt. It may be slow "bulky" mixed attacker but its Dark Type and having a viarity of moves surely... it doesn't get Crunch per lv...
Level up moves you get Sword Dance as your only useful option. Because you already have access to Surf, you don't need Crabhammer.
Physical options are not particually appealing. You get Brick Break which I would prefer to teach my Starter.
You could probably grind and do something with it. Maybe use it as HM slave to teach it Dive and Waterfall which I did. Pretty much gave up using it as a member that contributes in battles. In that role you have vast amount of Water Types that can fill the role and you probably need at least 1 Water Type in Hoenn.
So by default, Crawdaunt is not useless because you need a filler Dive and Waterfall Pokemon which can be fullfilled by Goldeen and the likes that you probably don't need to waste resources for. As someone contributing to battles, it comes a little too late and doesn't have many options that make it more appealing than other bland mediocre water types.
 
mertyville said:

Ruby and Sapphire has way too many water types. You need surf to get the good rod to get these things. Lucky me, I caught one at lv27 so just 3 levels to get Crawdaunt. It may be slow "bulky" mixed attacker but its Dark Type and having a viarity of moves surely... it doesn't get Crunch per lv...
Level up moves you get Sword Dance as your only useful option. Because you already have access to Surf, you don't need Crabhammer.
Physical options are not particually appealing. You get Brick Break which I would prefer to teach my Starter.
You could probably grind and do something with it. Maybe use it as HM slave to teach it Dive and Waterfall which I did. Pretty much gave up using it as a member that contributes in battles. In that role you have vast amount of Water Types that can fill the role and you probably need at least 1 Water Type in Hoenn.
So by default, Crawdaunt is not useless because you need a filler Dive and Waterfall Pokemon which can be fullfilled by Goldeen and the likes that you probably don't need to waste resources for. As someone contributing to battles, it comes a little too late and doesn't have many options that make it more appealing than other bland mediocre water types.
I dunno about that, all I see is Wingull and Tentacool out there :psysly:

The problem, as usual, is availability. Game Freak has this tendency of giving players the Good Rod pause too late, and if we're being real, the Old Rod only getting Magikarp is just horrible. This is how many Water Starters float up the tier lists: artificial scarcity. But I digress.

Crawdaunt also has the classic Gen 3-style Slow, Frail, Mixed Attacker stat spread (Feat. No Physical STAB).

It's already a tough sell because let's be real, Crawdaunt was never good in-game, but making it one of the many obscure Water-types of Hoenn is just stupid.

Speaking of which, I decided to take a look at its availability in later gens because it did get massively buffed by Gen 4's Physical/Special Split.

  • Gen 4: Postgame
  • Gen 5: Postgame
  • Gen 6 - XY: Mid-game (Coumarine), Just in time for the Grass Gym, and now it has an extra weakness (Fairy).
  • Gen 6 - ORAS: Same as RSE.
  • Gen 7: Late-game (Vast Poni Canyon)
  • Gen 8 - SwSh: Finally available early-game.
  • Gen 9 - SV: Also available early, but requires DLC.
So yeah, it's pretty grim.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
I dunno about that, all I see is Wingull and Tentacool out there :psysly:

The problem, as usual, is availability. Game Freak has this tendency of giving players the Good Rod pause too late, and if we're being real, the Old Rod only getting Magikarp is just horrible. This is how many Water Starters float up the tier lists: artificial scarcity. But I digress.

Crawdaunt also has the classic Gen 3-style Slow, Frail, Mixed Attacker stat spread (Feat. No Physical STAB).

It's already a tough sell because let's be real, Crawdaunt was never good in-game, but making it one of the many obscure Water-types of Hoenn is just stupid.

Speaking of which, I decided to take a look at its availability in later gens because it did get massively buffed by Gen 4's Physical/Special Split.

  • Gen 4: Postgame
  • Gen 5: Postgame
  • Gen 6 - XY: Mid-game (Coumarine), Just in time for the Grass Gym, and now it has an extra weakness (Fairy).
  • Gen 6 - ORAS: Same as RSE.
  • Gen 7: Late-game (Vast Poni Canyon)
  • Gen 8 - SwSh: Finally available early-game.
  • Gen 9 - SV: Also available early, but requires DLC.
So yeah, it's pretty grim.
Wingull can't learn Dive and Waterfall in Gen 3. You have to get Tentacool or evolve Gyarados if you want it early. Corphis is just a placeholder Pokemon for viarity for your dive and waterfall slave. Grinding is not worth it unless you want to give it strength too but you probably already have something else filling that role.
 
The most annoying part about Corphish is that you can catch Carvanha in the same route you get the Good Rod, and that is miles better better (outside of the bad exp group) because it gets Crunch as early as level 22. It's even frailer but I'd argue the much higher speed is more important than anything else. As far as slow physical waters go I don't think many would pick it over Marill either, they really made phish look like an afterthought.

Speaking of bad exp groups
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
I feel SD Zangoose is a trap.

That mon has been paper thin since day 1, how can someone set it up? I'd rather go for Crush Claw's 50% Def drop so even if it goes down, it definitely did something.
From my testing for the in-game tiers I came to the conclusion that most bosses were easy setup bait due to leading with weak mons, so bulk notwithstanding when I tried Zangoose it was actually better at sweeping them than random trainers—even when it was underleveled until the 40s because Erratic is, well, erratic. The only time I remember it disappointing was against Flannery because it needs two SDs to OHKO Torkoal with Strength (don't remember if Dig KOs at +2 but it's Dig) and sun boosted Overheat from Slugma KOs, so you just had to hope it used Smog first. Tate & Liza weren't a problem either since you can focus fire one with a fast partner as long as you give it Shadow Ball, my team was Swampert/Pelipper/Shiftry/Zangoose/Medicham and the only ones who underperformed were the Waters lol.

I definitely understand the disappointment from a casual perspective since it can be infuriating to train but it was also really fun to use so I thought I'd put in a good word for the guy. Hell, I even used it to sweep the entire league including Steven which is hilarious (since Skarmory likes to spam Toxic and Spikes you can get three SDs, sure it's not the most efficient but I also don't think many mons can outright sweep him).
 
Ernesto said:
The most annoying part about Corphish is that you can catch Carvanha in the same route you get the Good Rod, and that is miles better better (outside of the bad exp group) because it gets Crunch as early as level 22. It's even frailer but I'd argue the much higher speed is more important than anything else. As far as slow physical waters go I don't think many would pick it over Marill either, they really made phish look like an afterthought.

Speaking of bad exp groups

From my testing for the in-game tiers I came to the conclusion that most bosses were easy setup bait due to leading with weak mons, so bulk notwithstanding when I tried Zangoose it was actually better at sweeping them than random trainers—even when it was underleveled until the 40s because Erratic is, well, erratic. The only time I remember it disappointing was against Flannery because it needs two SDs to OHKO Torkoal with Strength (don't remember if Dig KOs at +2 but it's Dig) and sun boosted Overheat from Slugma KOs, so you just had to hope it used Smog first. Tate & Liza weren't a problem either since you can focus fire one with a fast partner as long as you give it Shadow Ball, my team was Swampert/Pelipper/Shiftry/Zangoose/Medicham and the only ones who underperformed were the Waters lol.

I definitely understand the disappointment from a casual perspective since it can be infuriating to train but it was also really fun to use so I thought I'd put in a good word for the guy. Hell, I even used it to sweep the entire league including Steven which is hilarious (since Skarmory likes to spam Toxic and Spikes you can get three SDs, sure it's not the most efficient but I also don't think many mons can outright sweep him).
Ah yes, our near-daily reminder that Exp. Groups were a mistake and never provided any benefit whatsoever.
 
i understand why they did exp groups for sure, but I think i said it before: pokemon can already emulate slower growth rates by the levels and frequency of which your pokemon learns moves and evolve, the two main things you want levels for. there was no need to create an extra variant that is often adding up to the design choices i mentioned to create a pretty bad experience. if a pokemon already has a very limited moveset until it evolves and it only evolves in the 50s, why does it also need to take longer to train?
 
Bakugames said:
i understand why they did exp groups for sure, but I think i said it before: pokemon can already emulate slower growth rates by the levels and frequency of which your pokemon learns moves and evolve, the two main things you want levels for. there was no need to create an extra variant that is often adding up to the design choices i mentioned to create a pretty bad experience. if a pokemon already has a very limited moveset until it evolves and it only evolves in the 50s, why does it also need to take longer to train?
RBY Dratini is the best example of this. Hard to find, hard to get, low stats, evolves outrageously late, sucks in TMs like Kirby...

Did it really need to take twice as much exp to level up too? Really?
 
I see a lot of Hoenn mon slander, and I feel like I have to step in to say that they are mostly fine. Average and perfectly usable. If anything I gave me the excuse to replay Ruby and Sapphire since Lunatone and Zangoose aren't available in Emerald.

Lunatone:
It has kind of underwhelming stats and the Rock typing is not adding anything useful since its attack is so low. So for the most part it is just a levitating Psychic type with a unique defensive typing that sometimes makes life difficult for itself.
It comes underleveled but it is in the fast level growth group, so it won't take long to catch up to the rest of your team.

The movepool is not amazing but Hypnosis and Cosmic Power can be useful utility moves. To get the most out of Lunatone, you need to give it one or two important TMs. Imo, it is not worth it to wait for the level up Psychic at 37. You don't want to use Confusion as its best move for 20 levels. It needs the strong fire power immediately. It is possible to get enough money for the Psychic Game Corner TM before Flannery and it is not an issue to have the money before Norman if you do a little bit of side stuff like the Trick House or the Route 111 desert.

Lunatone is pretty solid or outright good against Flannery and Norman (set up a few Cosmic Powers to take Faint Attacks better). The Ice Beam TM is useful as coverage but it is a better strategy to get the free TM from the Abandoned Ship instead of buying the Game Corner TM in the mid game. Your team probably doesn't need two Ice Beam users by gym 6 already, so you can just buy the second Ice Beam TM for your Water type of choice later once you got enough money again. With Ice Beam, Lunatone sweeps Winona handily and otherwise it is good against everything but Skarmoy with Psychic alone. The last two gyms are not amazing for it but with the Calm Mind TM from gym 7, it can try to sweep through gym 8. Like most Psychic types, it can't contribute much in the league but in contrast to others it can also try to sweep Drake with Ice Beam, not just Glacia with Calm Mind.

Overall, Lunatone is okay. It never blows your socks off (which is why it was posted here I guess, so fair enough) but it has perfectly fine performance if you give it a bit of support. C-tier material. Between it and Emerald Solrock, it is clearly worse, though, because it just has far fewer viable options. Sapphire and low attack stat mean it can't use Rollout from the move tutor which I think very highly of for the early and mid game. Solrock can also use Overheat, Earthquake, Shadow Ball and even Explosion which Lunatone can't use or not well at least. It just lines up better in the region than Lunatone imo.

Zangoose:
It is kind of a glass cannon Normal sweeper and honestly does its job pretty well. But it does need a while to really get going.

The biggest hinderance of Zangoose is really how much additional EXP it needs compared to most other Pokemon. Just like all Pokemon between gyms 3 and 4, it comes pretty underleveled and sadly is in the horrible erractic level growth group. Which is by far the worst EXP group in the game and means it takes quite a while for it catch up, and more importantly, it means it gets outspeed more often than you think at first. 90 base speed is good enough but if it is several levels below enemy Pokemon with very few EVs yet, then it often just falls short on acting first. Which is bad because of its low bulk.

Still it isn't in that state for too long and after gym 5 or so, this problem should go away. And otherwise Zangoose has some pretty amazing traits. Early Swords Dance by level up is awesome. And as a pure Normal type it will rock the usual coverage of Shadow Ball and Brick Break via TMs later. And its Return will be so powerful later, that it often doesn't need to set up at all to get OHKOs. Swords Dance is mostly for major trainers only. It clears routes very well. Swords Dance boosted Strength can take on the mid game and Return the late game. You need to know when it is safe to set up a Swords Dance, though, because again, its bulk is not great, so a stray hit could be deadly.

It does well against trainers in the late game and the league with Swords Dance but overall I think Slaking is a better and more consistent Normal type due to its better bulk. Zagoose is not bad at all, though. Certainly better than most other available Normal type options.

Crawdaunt:
Crawdaunt is also fine but sadly just pretty outclassed by Sharpedo who becomes available at the same time, has much more speed and also better moves for its role and comes better right out of the gate.

Still, if we look at Crawdaunt on its own, then it isn't that bad. It has a pretty average and resonable performance imo.

A lot of this comes from its amazing typing. Water / Dark is a top 3 typing for in-game in Hoenn. Dark means it just clowns on gym 7, Phoebe and most of Sidney. And Water is just very useful defensively and means even if its bulk isn't amazing, it can get those turns to set up Swords Dance if it needs to. Being a Water type that beats other Water types is also a very good trait to have in 7/10 too much Water Hoenn.
And while it is a "physical Water type", its special attack stat of 90 is not bad compared to others in that group like Gyarados or Azumarill, so it can still make good use of STAB Surf.

Its level up movepool is not great, so it mostly relies on TMs and HMs. Even if you don't want to fight with it, it is one of the best available HM users (even if I dont think you need one of those in Hoenn). Otherwise, Brick Break, Sludge Bomb and Ice Beam, or even Aerial Ace and Dig are all useful options. It also comes at the perfect moment to use max power Returns right away if you use friendship berries with the Soothe Bell before you get any EVs with it. The nearby berries from the garden of the Berry Master are enough to max out its friendship right away (honestly more people need to know about this trick).

Its performance in the remaining major fights is honestly not bad. With the free Ice Beam TM, it can take care of Winona, it is really good in gym 7 (access to Crabhammer is amazing here because it doesn't get the gen 3 50% damage reduction in double battles that Surf gets) and if you overlevel it a few levels for Swords Dance, it will sweep gym 8 as well. Its lower speed and bulk is more of a problem in the league but it can still contribute a good amount against all trainers there.

Really the biggest two problems it faces are that it is just so outclassed by Sharpedo and that is is an exlusive Good Rod encounter which have an awfully wide encounter range, so it can come insanely underleveled. But I still wouldn't say that Crawdaunt is a below average Pokemon in Hoenn. It is fine.
 
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Darvin said:
Lapras is incredibly under-leveled for how late in the game you get it. If you got it at a higher level it would be incredible, but as it stands it's arriving at level 15 near the end of the game, and it's in the slow experience group. It just needs a huge amount of grinding to thrive, and I can't rate it highly when other late-game Pokemon are things you just throw on your team and they work well with no extra effort on your part.

Poliwrath just underwhelmed. There's a big chunk of Water-types on my tier list that all got tiered back-to-back in C tier, and honestly they're about equal. They all have their pros and cons, but at the end of the day they shared the same dynamic and really didn't have anything to make themselves stand out. Poliwrath would probably be quite good with a few more levels, but Amnesia really didn't do anything at the levels I was using it.

Magneton hits some pretty nice breakpoints with its higher special stat that Raichu, Electabuzz, and Electrode fall short of. It was getting OHKO's where those others were getting 2HKO's. It's available at a very nice level, and is basically ready for Victory Road the moment you catch it.
I'm more forgiving in Gen 1 where there were less options for grinding, but I disagree with this sort of mentality for tier lists. When I'm reading a tier list, I want to know, if I choose to use a Pokemon, will I find it enjoyable to use? There is already a baseline assumption there that I am willing to undertake whatever difficulties are associated in raising it. Like in Crystal, I don't care if I have to play around with daylights savings time to make sure I get a Fire Stone before the 4th Gym. If I want Porygon in FRLG I will grab the Amulet Coin and VS Seeker and get to grinding.

Now, obviously I can't create an entire team at the last second, but when you factor in location and ease of access into your tier list, you end up highlighting a bunch of Pokemon I already knew were good. As I could the, access early on and they were easy train up, I probably have used them, or am well aware they are good.

Unless I overextend myself and try to go beyond a team of 6, I have enough XP to go around, with some slight grinding at times. I don't need my Pokemon to come "victory road ready." The games aren't really a challenge and unless I was playing them repeatedly to make a tierlist I'd want to smell the roses and not just "bum rush" them like a lot of tier list makers assume people do. (interestingly music and tv critics suffer from this too).

Volt-Ikazuchi said:
I feel SD Zangoose is a trap.

That mon has been paper thin since day 1, how can someone set it up? I'd rather go for Crush Claw's 50% Def drop so even if it goes down, it definitely did something.
I feel like SetUp moves are a little overrated in regular play. The reason they're so good in Competitive and Nuzlocking is because you know the exact circumstances when they can be used. In Regular Play, you're not going to want to setup most of the time because it adds extra work to regular battles, and without checking stats and doing calcs you won't know if you have time to set up without getting countered by another Pokemon, risking a crit, getting a hit by a disruptive or SuperEffective move etc during the important fights.
 
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Basedwell said:
I'm more forgiving in Gen 1 where there were less options for grinding, but I disagree with this sort of mentality for tier lists. When I'm reading a tier list, I want to know, if I choose to use a Pokemon, will I find it enjoyable to use? There is already a baseline assumption there that I am willing to undertake whatever difficulties are associated in raising it.
Any fully-evolved Pokemon can solo the game if you're willing to grind it high enough. Most don't even need to be that high, just look at jrose11's excellent Youtube series of solo run challenges. Many of his Pokemon are entering the Elite 4 under level 60 and only take a couple tries to get a solo win. In the singleplayer where you can overlevel to an arbitrary extent, you cannot compare two Pokemon without taking into consideration how they are obtained and how much experience you are investing in grinding them.

Consider that I have Kadabra in B-rank and Alakazam in S-rank. A level 45 Kadabra is nearly identical to a level 40 Alakazam. Implicitly, I am saying that I consider 5 extra levels the difference between B rank and S rank levels of power. If you are willing to grind, you can get almost anything up to S rank levels of power and the very notion of a tier list becomes irrelevant.
 
Basedwell said:
I'm more forgiving in Gen 1 where there were less options for grinding, but I disagree with this sort of mentality for tier lists. When I'm reading a tier list, I want to know, if I choose to use a Pokemon, will I find it enjoyable to use? There is already a baseline assumption there that I am willing to undertake whatever difficulties are associated in raising it. Like in Crystal, I don't care if I have to play around with daylights savings time to make sure I get a Fire Stone before the 4th Gym. If I want Porygon in FRLG I will grab the Amulet Coin and VS Seeker and get to grinding.
To be fair, if you have to do a horrendous amount of tedious busy work just to get a mon in viable shape, that's already a big souring point on enjoyability.

Personally, I draw the line on grinding and low encounter rates.

So for example, if I have to get, say Johto Natu, or low-level Gallade in Sinnoh, both of which require a massive detour, but I'm perfectly fine with that.

On the other hand, I'll never use Gyarados in RBY. I don't care if it has effective 580 BST, I'll TBolt that thing my damn self. Low-level, slow Exp. rate, Splash until Lv. 15, then it gets Tackle off 10 (Ten) Attack, which, mind you, is the same as Blissey's, except it hits harder because it gets STAB.

No, no, no, no, NO.

1% encounters can GTFO too, I can barely stomach Ralts' 4%, let alone embark on the absolute fools errand of trying to use a Surskit in Hoenn. No deal.
 
Oh I thought of one, but it was hard lol. Well 3, the complementary unova monkeys. They look good ofc cause of geling with the starters type wise, but stink on Stats. Not great evod, stone mons too, so if you want moves Evo is a big no no until a higher lvl. I still remember an old friend who doesn't/didnt play seriously at all commenting they seem weak. I mean you get the right Monkey early for free do you can't expect much of it...

Ive been thinking on this one for a bit, the thread I mean. Not much comes to mind. Maybe chansey and like wobbu, they are comp Mons to some extent, but in either event are needlessly fat without proper offense for playthrough. Then there's shuckle, looks like a nice fat mon, same deal as before but ALSO it has pathetic HP. To me that makes it trash ish. I mean fixed damage moved are not that common, but it offsets the good defences. Another aspect I've thought of is that, even if they give suckle a mega of all things someday, HP of mega never goes up. So it'd be more of the same for it.

I think I started Mons too late to have much for here, I have no gen 1 horror stories. I started in 3. Certainly before there were lots things that'd look fine...until you find the same type mon that's better.

Edit: possibly Diglett, has no stats even evod, bat spe but lol, even though it's been graded with a rare kind of ability, tunnel named after it, Gen 7 form, AND Gen 9 form adjacent. Like why the fanfare then it sucks ...
 
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Omastar68 said:
Oh I thought of one, but it was hard lol. Well 3, the complementary unova monkeys. They look good ofc cause of geling with the starters type wise, but stink on Stats. Not great evod, stone mons too, so if you want moves Evo is a big no no until a higher lvl. I still remember an old friend who doesn't/didnt play seriously at all commenting they seem weak. I mean you get the right Monkey early for free do you can't expect much of it...

Ive been thinking on this one for a bit, the thread I mean. Not much comes to mind. Maybe chansey and like wobbu, they are comp Mons to some extent, but in either event are needlessly fat without proper offense for playthrough. Then there's shuckle, looks like a nice fat mon, same deal as before but ALSO it has pathetic HP. To me that makes it trash ish. I mean fixed damage moved are not that common, but it offsets the good defences. Another aspect I've thought of is that, even if they give suckle a mega of all things someday, HP of mega never goes up. So it'd be more of the same for it.

I think I started Mons too late to have much for here, I have no gen 1 horror stories. I started in 3. Certainly before there were lots things that'd look fine...until you find the same type mon that's better.

Edit: possibly Diglett, has no stats even evod, bat spe but lol, even though it's been graded with a rare kind of ability, tunnel named after it, Gen 7 form, AND Gen 9 form adjacent. Like why the fanfare then it sucks ...
I hate those monkeys in XY Nuzlockes. 30% chance to get one of them in Santalune Forest, and if you get a monkey there's then a 1 in 3 chance that it's the same type as your starter and a complete waste of an encounter.
 
Not sure on how hot of a take that is, but if there was one, it gotta be Vivillon from Pokemon X.

1760755005468.png

Disclaimer: I was playing on Set Mode, with no EXP share.

Now, the reason I started to use it was aside from the Pokémon's many beautiful various designs, I thought its toolkit has potential. Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz, plus Safeguard can make it a useful set-up sweeper. On top of which, it has Compound Eyes, which is useful combined with Sleep Powder and Hurricane. I was looking forward to it. However, I realised it had a lot of issues.
For one, Vivillion doesn't get good STAB moves at the start. Your best bug STAB move is either Struggle Bug or Infestation, and your best flying STAB is Gust. It only gets Bug Buzz at Level 35 and Hurricane at 50. This means that Vivillion would not be a 100% secure plan against the enemy. Draining Kiss and TM Acrobatics can help, although you do have to get it from an NPC by answering a question correctly, which in itself would be a random question; I unfortunately only got it very late. Not to mention that Acrobatics & Aerial Ace comes from Vivillion's poor Attack stat.

Whilst it can handle the rival's Meowstic/Espurr in theory, its Struggle Bug and Infestation attacks are so weak, whilst they can set up with Light Screen and strike back with Psychic/Psybeam. It will take a long time, and you might end up at half health.
I also can't seem to find it useful against the Fighting types as well. It can't handle the Glittering Cave's Sawk because it gets 2HKO by Retaliate, and whilst it can defeat Korrina's Mienfoo with Draining Kiss, it can't handle her Machoke with Rock Tomb. I was worried about Hawlucha because it's part Flying, but it doesn't even have a flying stab move. I also felt uneasy using it against Ramos, as each of his Pokémon has ways to deal with it (Jumpluff's Acrobatics, Weepinbell's Poison Powder + Acid, Gogoat's Take Down).
There is also the issue of Vivillion being terribly frail, so it can't really afford to take a hit. Comparing it with my other NFE mons (i.e, Charmeleon, Quilladin, Heliolisk), I would say it's pretty terrible offensively due to its weak stab moves and terribly defensively.

After Clemont's gym, I had to swap it out with Skorupi, and whilst it wasn't perfect, it has at least a decent defensive typing and can learn Swords Dance early via TM.

I do wish though that I wasn't hasty in dropping it, as I did have fun in using it sometimes such as using it to get Heart Scales from Luvdisc, and paralysing my oppoents did help my team a lot (even if it was done better by the Heliolisk line).
 

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MoonlightRose said:
Buneary in Legends Z-A, for the same reason that Buneary always ends up disappointing: It doesn't fucking evolve. Yes it's still barely managing to hold its own hours later, but that's because I got so caught in the gameplay loop I'm 10+ levels above most trainers.

Apparently eating at Cafes are the best way to increase a Pokemon's friendship and there doesn't seem to be a limit. So first Save, eat at one cafe, Level up, doesn't evolve reset and eat at 2 different cafes, Level up, still doesn't evolve reset and eat at 3 different cafes etc., etc..
 
I hate to say it, but honestly Krookodile in Z-A is a massive downgrade from its usual power level in every main series game it’s appeared in. It has middling bulk, loses both of its fantastic abilities, gets deleted by the Ice and Fighting-type coverage moves that a ton of trainers have, and doesn’t get a Mega to keep up with the power level of other options. A lot of its attack animations also involve it walking right up to an opponent’s face and getting walloped before it can get off an attack. I tried to carry one through the midgame before eventually replacing it with Tyranitar, which loses the Electric immunity but is otherwise better than it at everything.
 
I brought it up in the ZA teams thread, but there were a couple mons i used i ended up disappointed with in my second ZA runthrough, those being Aggron and Dragalge

Dragalge is the less offensive of the two to me, it comes pretty lategame, but arrives at a decent level at least. Problems came when I saw Skrelps base stats (50 HP, 30 Speed and 60 in everything else is not a great look), and then realised it doesn't evolve to Dragalge until Level 48. By that point you're pretty well into the endgame and, though you have time to use it like that, it doesn't perform particularly well. Not badly, but just kinda whatever. Doesn't hit super hard, especially without Adaptability existing for it to take advantage of like it could have in the main games, tanks well enough but not exceptionally. At the very least though, it levels up reasonably, which I can't say for my other pick

Aggron has several flaws in this game. the first off just being it arrives even later than Skrelp, and at a pretty significant level disadvantage compared to where your mons will be at that point in the game as well. While that could've been avoided had I gone for an Alpha, or the rarer Lairon spawn that comes at a significantly higher level, it still feels pretty bad to me. The line is also in the slow EXP group, leading it to be behind the rest of my team level wise even after I caught it up from its catch level, and its moveset didn't particularly impress either. Rock Slide and Iron Head are not the best of moves in the game, and those were the STAB moves i was stuck with for most of it. Mega Aggron also never really felt like the Mega Evolution I would want to be using at any given time.
 
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freaking PROBOPASS in Platinum

On paper Nosepass looks great. You evolve immediately and have great bulk and Thunder Wave...but throughout my whole Platinum playthrough, it was hard to find a situation where switching to Probopass was a good option. Rock/Steel is a pretty bad defensive type (Water and Ground and Fighting moves own it pretty hard), and it really doesn't help that Wake, Cyrus, Cynthia - basically all the big battles in the game with the notable exception of Fantina - have ways to neuter it. Most of its good moves come basically at the Pokemon League and with only 75 Special Attack, it hits like a wet towel (on the other hand, Rock Slide is okay for the midgame despite 55 base Attack).

My main issue with Probopass is that despite being billed as a defensive Pokemon, it has almost no good support moves outside Thunder Wave (nobody is using Gravity lmao). No Reflect, no Light Screen, just basic Toxic...WOO GET EXCITED! You know it is bad when Pachirisu with Charm and Super Fang and Light Screen is better in a support role. Heck, my Yawn Chimecho with screens was better, and that's sad. For the entire game, Probopass will sit there, eat a strong hit, Thunder Wave, and then be immediately borderline useless for the rest of the battle. Even the victories it gets in Gyms like Candice are really not notable when Choice Specs Glaceon of all things can destroy Candice.

It's hard to find an actually good wall in Platinum, granted, but still. Probopass might look hilarious, but in-game, just Probopass on it and use something else.
 
mertyville said:
Zangoose sprite from Ruby & Sapphire
After using Zangoose in my Ruby run, I think I kinda got the memo why a few Pokemon like Lunatone are kinda underwhelming. Zangoose isn't a bad Pokemon, but I felt like even with the Experience Share with limited battles but not taking the share away much, getting it to the necassary level and keep up with the opponent's pokemon is really hard.
I saw the appeal and thought there is no way this thing is gonna disappoint.
- it has Swords Dance as you catch it
- you have Strength by the time you get it meaning 80 base power move
- you can save a lot of pp with Slash and Crush Claw until you get TM30 and TM37
But often I found myself underleveled which should not be an issue because you could just set up. In practice it did not turn out well because it wasn't as bulky and I didn't have means to weaken my enemy Pokemon to set up. If I could, I would just use my starter and sweep the gym that way. That comes to the issue that I picked Torchic and Blaziken just made Zangoose obsolete for the most part.
Even against Tate and Liza, I could not just set up and sweep with SD + Shadow Ball. Zangoose was defeated before I could get to attack.
Generally I think I could have done better if I let it do more major battles instead letting it get mostly exp share means of grinding. I mean I used Loudred to stomp most trainers in-game and Zangoose is like a lot stronger naturally.
Maybe in a future run, I will let it participate in more battles to gain experience and invest a little bit more time grinding. I definitively overestimated it a bit too much that I did only minimal grinding.
Funny enough, this whole experience reminded me of trying out something new at 7bit casino you think you’ve got the perfect setup, but sometimes you just need more strategy and patience to really make it work
Yeah man, Zangoose looks dope on paper with Swords Dance right off the bat and Strength hitting hard early, but it just ain't bulky enough to setup safely without weakening stuff first. Blaziken totally overshadows it too, no surprise there. Next Ruby run, def let it fight more trainers instead of exp share babysitting, might level it right for Tate&Liza. Sucks when hype doesnt match reality huh?
 
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DrumstickGaming said:
View attachment 815510
freaking PROBOPASS in Platinum

On paper Nosepass looks great. You evolve immediately and have great bulk and Thunder Wave...but throughout my whole Platinum playthrough, it was hard to find a situation where switching to Probopass was a good option. Rock/Steel is a pretty bad defensive type (Water and Ground and Fighting moves own it pretty hard), and it really doesn't help that Wake, Cyrus, Cynthia - basically all the big battles in the game with the notable exception of Fantina - have ways to neuter it. Most of its good moves come basically at the Pokemon League and with only 75 Special Attack, it hits like a wet towel (on the other hand, Rock Slide is okay for the midgame despite 55 base Attack).

My main issue with Probopass is that despite being billed as a defensive Pokemon, it has almost no good support moves outside Thunder Wave (nobody is using Gravity lmao). No Reflect, no Light Screen, just basic Toxic...WOO GET EXCITED! You know it is bad when Pachirisu with Charm and Super Fang and Light Screen is better in a support role. Heck, my Yawn Chimecho with screens was better, and that's sad. For the entire game, Probopass will sit there, eat a strong hit, Thunder Wave, and then be immediately borderline useless for the rest of the battle. Even the victories it gets in Gyms like Candice are really not notable when Choice Specs Glaceon of all things can destroy Candice.

It's hard to find an actually good wall in Platinum, granted, but still. Probopass might look hilarious, but in-game, just Probopass on it and use something else.
you didn’t even mention the funniest part of probopass which is the gardenia fight. so you get it right before the eterna gym, right, and of course it’ll likely have the best statline out of your whole party at that time in the game, and it even gets this handy steel typing to negate the grass weakness. so you figure, yeah, this should be a good choice for the gym, right? and then you send it vs roserade and get hit by max power grass knot.

being such a heavy mon at that point in the game that you get owned by very specifically grass knot (and not just dying to any grass move like geodude/onix) is a legitimate achievement. im pretty sure the only other mon that gets there is gyarados.
 
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