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Announcement NP: Stage 21 - The Sound Of Music (Toxtricity Remains NU)

etern

etern

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NU Leader

:toxtricity: :toxtricity: :toxtricity: :toxtricity: :toxtricity:

Toxtricity has been part of the SV NU metagame for a long time, however it's presence in the tier has slowly but surely become more controversial as it continues to be a dominant part of highly effective Hyper Offense structures, as well as a premier breaker for more balanced builds. The most infamous Toxtricity set runs a combination of the moves Shift Gear, Boomburst, and Overdrive, with the 4th move being more flexible depending on team composition (usually Drain Punch to break past Chansey) in conjunction with Throat Spray. This allows Toxtricity to outspeed the entire meta after one boost, and blast through most neutral targets in 2 hits thanks to the ridiculous breaking power of Tera-Normal Throat Spray Boomburst and Overdrive, both of which are bolstered by it's Punk Rock ability. Alternatively, some people opt to run Toxtricity on bulky offense / balanced builds, as it has just enough bulk and an interesting defensive typing which lets it softcheck a few popular Pokemon such as Flamigo, Scyther, Tornadus, and Bellibolt while acting as an extremely potent wallbreaker / revenge killer depending on whether it chooses to run Choice Specs or Choice Scarf. However, Toxtricity can still be contained to an extent by key defensive staples of the tier such as SpD Bronzong, Copperajah (with Earthquake), Chansey (counters choiced sets and can counter shift gear depending on Tera type), Rhyperior, and Duraludon, and also requires 1-2 turns of setup to reach it's full sweeping potential in some cases. Thus the question stands, does SV NU have enough resources to handle Toxtricity? Or is it's power level too much for the tier to handle.

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The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in NU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played NU before the test, full stop.​
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.​
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  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me.​

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800. The deadline for getting requirements will be Thursday, March 19th at 7pm GMT+11. ​
 
Before I play even a single game in this suspect for anyone that is gonna take part just because they like the challenge and don't necessarily know deeply about NU.

Toxt is stupid. Is a mon that the day it loses tera it will be much much much much weaker. Until than...

Shift Gear destroys offense out speeding and KOing everything. Perfect typing vs migo helps a lot and actually normal tera is a good enough defensively tera to give you that 1 free turn you need.

Specs doesn't have true walls. 90% of the universe is in range of Boomburst+Tera Boomburst .

Scarf is like cute and all but is more cheesy than anything to get an early turn surprise KO and try to build a win based on that. A lot of mid speed mons can do that.

Do I use it in tours and is super fun to see a wall evaporate? Yes and Yes again.

Do i think its ban worthy? I'm 75% sure yes but it shouldn't be a unanimous decision. But given if it wasn't for me PZ would have a 100% ban vote I think Toxt days are numbered.
 
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Something not mentioned in the OP that I think deserves a shout is the experimentation of physical shift gear sets. Now in a vacuum these aren't really broken at all, they're way easier to wall and overall just worse than the special sets, however they do have a notable niche being that they can easily just click shift gear and boost and still bluff being a special set until they finally attack, and the physical sets are capable of beating the vast majority of checks to special sets (namely the steels, chansey regardless of tera, and the rare golurk/palosand) meaning it can quite often really find a surprise KO against a piece it normally shouldn't and chip down another response after to open up holes for its teammates. And it's not like you're gonna expect it to reveal it's physical either, after all the special sets are far more common and devastating if not handled correctly, which only works in favor of physical sets because you're never going to play like they're physical until they actually prove it.

This all said I'm still not 100% certain on where I stand on toxtricity yet, but the added set variety of the, albeit still rare, physical sets make it enough of a headache that I can understand why people want it banned
 
Voting DNB on Toxt.

Agreed on Toxt being broken after 2 turns but even then there's still counterplay depending on the last move.

Specs Toxt is less broken and gets to break walls instantly but getting choicelocked into an electric or normal move in the progress is easily abusable.

Duraludon is one of the most common mons in the tier and does well against most variations.

and if that's not enough just run Palossand/Golurk/Bastiodon/Tera Steel Soundproof Abomasnow/Scarf Inteleon/Scarf Barraskewda/Tera ghost Chansey(for the 1 person running drain punch)/AV regen Reuniclus/Spdef Coal if it's not modest toxt.
 
Midwest Emo Band said:
Voting DNB on Toxt.

Agreed on Toxt being broken after 2 turns but even then there's still counterplay depending on the last move.

Specs Toxt is less broken and gets to break walls instantly but getting choicelocked into an electric or normal move in the progress is easily abusable.

Duraludon is one of the most common mons in the tier and does well against most variations.

and if that's not enough just run Palossand/Golurk/Bastiodon/Tera Steel Soundproof Abomasnow/Scarf Inteleon/Scarf Barraskewda/Tera ghost Chansey(for the 1 person running drain punch)/AV regen Reuniclus/Spdef Coal if it's not modest toxt.
Click to expand...

You are right in the aspect of Specs being less broken than Shift Gear, but that's about it. Yes being Choicelocked into Overdrive or Boomburst does suck with Flygon and Chandelure being so good (and other Ground or Ghost types), but you are playing a risky 50/50 against Toxtricity. If you click wrong then you are now in a 5v6 scenario, and if you went Flygon hoping it clicked Overdrive but it clicked Boomburst, then you're down your only Overdrive check.

Duraludon "does well" against Toxtricity, and by that I mean it can switch in once, this is not counting Tera, either.

The list of "checks" you put are mostly unviable. If my team is weak to Toxtricity then I am not about to add Soundproof Abomasnow to make it better.

---

Toxtricity is a dumb Pokemon because it plays the 50/50 game way too well. Overdrive and Boomburst are too hard to switch into repeatedly while Shift Gear sets have too much versatility in the 4th move. Not to mention Toxtricity leaving restricts the builder less, which is only a good thing. If I happen to get reqs with my Bellossom team, I will be voting Ban.
 
I don't think Toxtricity is completely busted, as there are some fairly solid checks against it in the tier. It does hit a bit too hard and I think it's controversial status in the tier is due to how offensive NU currently is. There's too many sweepers in the tier imo. Banning it would most likely result in a healthier meta. It's kind of a shame since I think it's typing and move set gives it an interesting niche had shift gear or punk rock not existed.
 
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Recently completed my suspect laddering and I will be voting Do Not Ban on Toxtricity.

"I'm brainrotted and can't read this whole post" (TLDR): Ultimately, the metagame has already adapted to Toxtricity and will continue to do so, and while it is a threat that needs to be explicitly prepared for, the cost of doing so is not so great that its presence harms the tier, and is therefore ultimately not banworthy.

:sv/toxtricity:

It is sufficiently answerable with pokemon available in the tier, both with defensive meta staples (Copperajah, Duraludon, EQ Bronzong, Swampert, Lagging Tail Klefki, and Chansey) and offensive pokemon with outstanding special bulk like Goodra, Meloetta, and Hoopa. There are more fringe options like Golurk, Bastiodon, and Porygon2, and while these all come with significant downsides, it's actually quite cool that these more fringe mons are given viability and a chance to shine in the tier once again. While the power of a Toxtricity with Tera Normal is among the highest in the tier, its Tera type and turn are both highly predictable, and it's not difficult to halt its sweep with a well-timed Tera Ghost/Steel of your own.

Frailer offensive teams may find themselves as Toxtricity food, but this is usually just a result of a failure to reasonably prep for it. Toxtricity's poor bulk and inability to resist the most common priority options in the tier like Basculegion's Aqua Jet or Brute Bonnet's Sucker Punch leave it vulnerable to getting revenge killed if traded with while setting up, and Modest sets are outsped by some scarfers like Munkidori. If forced to switch out after consuming Throat Spray, Toxtricity can remain a threat but will not reach the same absurd power level, and you can mostly consider it "dealt with".

Choiced sets are good, but with its primary attacking types both having immunities it can be scouted with Protect by walls like Vaporeon or simply predicted with a good switch. Some teams will have to make these 50/50 reads that many are concerned about, but on many occasions, sacking a weakened or less important pokemon is the best route and lets you avoid this guesswork altogether. Having used them myself, I can say physical sets ARE real, but they simply are used so rarely that it's not much of a consideration, and once the gig is up, most mons with decent physical bulk can handle it.

Here's the team I used for most of my reqs run. I'll make a post soon on some underrated pokemon I've experimented with lately, and the one featured here is Regirock!

-> :regirock::flamigo::dudunsparce::raikou::hoopa::flygon: <-
 
Shengineer said:
Recently completed my suspect laddering and I will be voting Do Not Ban on Toxtricity.

"I'm brainrotted and can't read this whole post" (TLDR): Ultimately, the metagame has already adapted to Toxtricity and will continue to do so, and while it is a threat that needs to be explicitly prepared for, the cost of doing so is not so great that its presence harms the tier, and is therefore ultimately not banworthy.

:sv/toxtricity:

It is sufficiently answerable with pokemon available in the tier, both with defensive meta staples (Copperajah, Duraludon, EQ Bronzong, Swampert, Lagging Tail Klefki, and Chansey) and offensive pokemon with outstanding special bulk like Goodra, Meloetta, and Hoopa. There are more fringe options like Golurk, Bastiodon, and Porygon2, and while these all come with significant downsides, it's actually quite cool that these more fringe mons are given viability and a chance to shine in the tier once again. While the power of a Toxtricity with Tera Normal is among the highest in the tier, its Tera type and turn are both highly predictable, and it's not difficult to halt its sweep with a well-timed Tera Ghost/Steel of your own.

Frailer offensive teams may find themselves as Toxtricity food, but this is usually just a result of a failure to reasonably prep for it. Toxtricity's poor bulk and inability to resist the most common priority options in the tier like Basculegion's Aqua Jet or Brute Bonnet's Sucker Punch leave it vulnerable to getting revenge killed if traded with while setting up, and Modest sets are outsped by some scarfers like Munkidori. If forced to switch out after consuming Throat Spray, Toxtricity can remain a threat but will not reach the same absurd power level, and you can mostly consider it "dealt with".

Choiced sets are good, but with its primary attacking types both having immunities it can be scouted with Protect by walls like Vaporeon or simply predicted with a good switch. Some teams will have to make these 50/50 reads that many are concerned about, but on many occasions, sacking a weakened or less important pokemon is the best route and lets you avoid this guesswork altogether. Having used them myself, I can say physical sets ARE real, but they simply are used so rarely that it's not much of a consideration, and once the gig is up, most mons with decent physical bulk can handle it.

Here's the team I used for most of my reqs run. I'll make a post soon on some underrated pokemon I've experimented with lately, and the one featured here is Regirock!

-> :regirock::flamigo::dudunsparce::raikou::hoopa::flygon: <-
Click to expand...
Just got my reqs and I'm gonna be lazy and just say my friend Shengineer sums it up perfectly and this guy isn't broken. The specs set is similar to chandy in where it blows up slow balance but is bad against offense, but this guy is a little worse because its stabs have immunities, although it can pivot unlike chandy. The shift gear set takes 2 turns to get going, just don't be bad and give it free setup or bring teams that have no answers. It's just a good, strong Mon in the tier

https://pokepast.es/9823363bf03d1743
Here's the team I used
 
Do Not Ban

Got my reqs on one of my alts, Lord Nerevar, and frankly I don't see why this suspect test is needed.

"Just click boom!" - Bernardo

Code: 
Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Snarl

Everyone here has been on both ends of a Tera Normal Punk Rock 252+ Boomburst, and there are some mons that can eat it well. AV Rajah, SpD Bronzong, Eviolite Duraludon, Ghost types, you get the idea. I would argue that this is its best or "most problematic" set, so that's why I'm writing about it first.

Slow pivot -> Click button -> Something explodes isn't uncommon in singles, in fact it's the baseline of competitive singles since Gen 4. Specs Tox does not do anything beyond this, it's very noticeably not meta-warping. Other offense teams should naturally be equipped to threaten something so slow with a quad weakness. A bulk spread of 75/70/70 with no investments does not handle Banded/Specs and/or Tera bombs.

This is a wallbreaker set, and naturally, it will break balance teams. Balance will naturally need to pivot more and therefore play for ranges, doubles, and reads, and this is all normal and healthy gameplay. The only thing I can say that Toxtricity gets away with is pre-Tera you ignore threats of paralysis or poison. This is set-agnostic, of course.

While this set is strong, arguably a premier wallbreaker in the tier, I see very little direct counterplay AKA meta-warping activity. We're not seeing H-Electrode for Soundproof, we're not seeing Throat Chop, we're not seeing directed hate sets, and that's for two very clear reasons:
1. Generic sets from multiple Pokemon (see above, and beyond) handle it just fine
2. It's not being built around enough to warrant Teambuilder counterplay

It's simply doing its job.


"He's gonna click Drain Punch here and you're gonna be really sad." - Brick

Code: 
Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shift Gear
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Drain Punch

My perception of ShiftSpray is admittedly warped, as my teams tend to have really good answers to the set. AV Raj, Tailwind Torn, Banded Basculegion, bulky Rhyperior, so on. I generally don't see how this set is problematic unless you're playing a turn behind or lack pivots/bombs outright. This is a two-turn setup mon, and while not a lot of Pokemon can safely hard switch into specs Tox, you can hard switch into the Shift Gear turn, or pre-Throat Spray turn. It functions way more like a janitor, and needs a proper team to complement it, you really can't copy paste this set into any ol' team. This is another key indicator on why this mon isn't broken, you can't slap this set onto any offense team as a sweeper and call it a day.

ShiftSpray Tox needs to find two free turns on previously crippled mons, passive threats, or simply janitor an endgame. This is all normal for any other setup sweeper, and Electric/Fighting coverage isn't that scary. While saving Tera Normal for your specs Tox makes sense in the average balance game, assuming you will always be at liberty to tera Normal on an offense team is a pipe dream. If you want to play around Tera Normal Boomburst, just run Specs.

Here's the final nail in the coffin: Roar. Just roar this. If your team is weak to setup sweepers, Roar will be gladly welcomed across many of your matchups, and your average rawrer like Swampert and Duraludon are more than able to eat a move to do so. Once the Throat Spray has been wasted, you shouldn't ever be in a position to lose to it.

Extreme conditions demand extreme responses. Historically, problematic sweepers demanded sharp counter-sets, Unaware splashed in the team, or prio spam. This tier does lack Unaware, but there's a decent chunk of prio, and if it was needed we would see more of it, but we don't. Sets like these also simply get worse as mons shuffle around tiers, and players get accustomed to it. You have a two-turn window against ShiftSpray, you have much less against Choice Specs.


"Phys Tox is NOT VIABLE. IT'S A MEME. DO NOT CALL PHYSICAL TOX VIABLE." - Ming

Code: 
Toxtricity @ Life Orb/Sitrus Berry
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Shift Gear
- Gunk Shot
- Thief

Code: 
Toxtricity @ Life Orb
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Whatever
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Shift Gear
- Gunk Shot
- Throat Chop

Billy, this is Physical Toxtricity. He's a setup sweeper. He is one of the most undervalued Pokemon in NU. His defect is that he sets up funny.

Moneyball quotes aside, phys Tox is objectively not as good as it's Tera Normal Boombursting counterparts, but it does operate akin to Scrafty with less of a tera dependency and better coverage. Throat Chop variant lets you counter enemy Tox, and you get to fully utilize a strictly better Dragon Dance. It has its niche, but it's definitely in cheese territory.

Not much more I can say about this, but you'll probably ruin someone's day hitting a +1 Gunk Shot on AV Goodra or Blissey or something. +1 Life Orb Throat Chop is a clean OHKO on every psychic type except Glowbro and Reun, btw. Don't look at the calcs against Fluff Houndstone.


Toxtricity @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Stored Power
- Shift Gear
- Charge Beam

Thanks for reading :)
 
Got reqs yesterday.

If Toxtricity were limited to exclusively running the throat spray / choice specs sets then I think it would be incredibly strong but fine, I suppose. Everyone knows what type of tera type it is going to be running on preview and it is only hitting one side.

However, the fact that is has a very strong mixed or even fully physical set that can leverage both boosts while not needing a second turn to throat spray is concerning. You could switch in your "answer" like a Goodra/Hoopa/Meloetta/Chansey and then get obliterated by a +1 lo boosted hit. While this set does leverage the heavy pressure special toxtricity puts on teams its not unbeatable, however the ability to basically hide what this set is doing until it's too late is not to be understimated in my opinion. Unless you have a recognizable team or spam physical toxtricity there really isn't any reason to suspect you're secretly life orb technician.

On top of the physical set, the special sets just gets insane value unless it's positioned poorly. While yes, you can switch in your answer there is a pattern of everything that can switch in being slower, forcing them to either get chipped into 2HKO range from the switch or get pivoted on with a specs volt switch. Of every option people listed the only thing actually faster than Toxtricity and can threaten it with an OHKO is AV Meloetta and Goodra. These two also happen to be easily handled by the physical set as they are OHKOed which does not make for a dynamic I want to see more of in the tier, especially if the physical set gains more traction.

There are some comparisions to made back during the Chandelure vote but Toxtricity just offers so much more than Chandelure ever did. It can actually end game teams and has a very solid typing against more than you think while flexing immunities to every relevant status barring burn.

All in all I think it's just a bit too much. For me I will be a voting Ban for toxtricity
 
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Got reqs the other day, my opinions of toxtricity in the tier are a mixed bag. I think sets like specs & scarf are fine honestly even tho the insane power of punk rock boosted boombursts and overdrives are really strong at the end of the day it is a slow and has middling bulk which makes it susceptible to revenge killing from faster mons like :flygon: and :munkidori: as well as some prio mons like :basculegion: and it has the same problems with any other choice locked mon where it can be quite easily scouted with protect since its stabs are individually decently wallable with good resists such as protect from :vaporeon: and :wo-chien: . The main reason is obv shift gear where it will outspeed most of the tier and click its strong attacks.

I like to categorise the answers to toxtricity as: the mons that don't beat toxtricity with tera, the mons that can check toxtricity but die to a coverage move, the mons that can check toxtricity with all its coverage & the revenge killers.
-Mons that can force toxtricity to tera are grounds like :flygon: and :swampert: as well as psychics like :munkidori: . These can make toxtricity tera but in practice I found this not helpful as one toxtricity sets up a shift gear it outspeeds most of the tier and has the capability to sweep
-Mons that can check some tox varients but die to a coverage move are mons that are weak to drain punch such as :goodra-hisui: :chansey: , die to snarl which are for the rare instances of :golurk: and :palossand: . These mons can check some tox varients but not all making them a bit inconsistent but still quite decent checks
-Mons that can comfortable check toxtricity are mons such as spdef :rhyperior: and :duraludon: as well as mons such as :bronzong: :copperajah: , these mons are quite good in the tier & can effectively deal with toxtricity even after tera however none of them have reliable recovery so they could be chipped down by other mons
-Mons that can revenge toxtricity are mons like :barraskewda: and :basculegion: with aqua jet, :brute-bonnet: with sucker and :flygon: with insect plate or LO/Band first impression, however these need chip in order to be fully effective

Overall whilst tox is a super threatening sweeper, the main counterpoint against this in my opinion is that with all its merit of it being super strong it has the same issues as many sweepers in that it has no recovery with it being forced into shift gear throat spray & it has middling bulk so you can chip it down while it sets up to be in range of a revenge killer or a solid check into :toxtricity: which every team should have as stuff like decent priority should be on most teams. In my opinion the tier already has the tools to prepare for toxtricity and that it should just be a component of teams to have a check for it.
 
Just got reqs, going 24-2 and only facing 2 Toxtricity. The first one was sent on a Guno and just died, while the second one attempted to set-up on Goodra. Total damage dealt by Toxtricity over 26 games: 0.
1773522562957.png

Yet, I'm still gonna vote ban on Toxtricity. I exclusively used the team I brought in NUCL finals against Fc and which got swept by Toxtricity. My ladder run just proved me once again that this ladder is terrible and that as others have repeated over the past years, suspect tests are a terrible way to elect qualified people (like seriously I easily got over 85% GXE, and people who have like 72% GXE can vote if they play over 100 games?). Anyway, if you want a post explaining why Toxtricity is a problem and that just slapping a random Eq on something is not a healthy answer in a competitive setting (read: in an environment where Toxtricity gets used more than Braviary), my last post is still relevant and my opinion hasn't changed.

tldr: ban toxtricity, don't listen to the regirock users who flex on the braviary noobs
 
Got reqs for this, used this team to wreck ladder (provided there wasn't some bs like psyterrain): https://pokepast.es/4dba435aceee15cc
But anyways I'm going to be voting Do Not Ban.

While Toxtricity is certainly a powerful Pokemon, it is also a mon that requires a lot of work to get going and has a litany of checks and counters in the tier. To illustrate my point, I'll list all of them (dividing them up into B and above, and B- and below)

Checks: :incineroar: :gligar: :houndstone: :meloetta::klefki: :reuniclus: :raikou: :bronzong: :goodra: :swampert: :wo-chien: :amoonguss: :brambleghast: :slowbro galar: | :decidueye: :hoopa: :hariyama:
Counters: :copperajah: :duraludon: :rhyperior: :chansey: | :bastiodon: :golurk:

I think this is a decently comprehensive list, as most of these can check them with certain sets (i.e. Houndstone can roar out toxtricity if its max hp at least while av glowbro can tank a hit from it). This does get a bit dicey with tera for some of these and if toxtricity has certain moves, but typically it does have to give something important up. No drain punch and chansey walls forever. No snarl and bramble can leech seed it and then careful pivoting can beat it. This isn't even going into offensive counterplay with priority, as stuff like bascu/wauros/barra aqua jet, toxicroak/bonnet sucker, shadow sneak houndstone (though this one can struggle into tera normal) and niche options like quick attack scyther and fake out ambipom.
Just to state for some maybe more obscure ones:
Incin can take any non specs/throat spray boosted tera boomburst from full and either eq it, flare blitz it or roar it out.
Gligar can take one attack and eq it into dust, and if you are fast gligar you don't even need to take that hit lol
Klefki can switcheroo lagging tail or foul play since shift gear gives +1
Raikou you can take one hit and either CM to threaten it for big damage or use roar
Wo-Chien can click leech seed or foul play into it
Amoonguss clicks stomping tantrum which lol, bye bye
Theres also the fact that toxtricity can struggle to setup a lot of the time, typically relying on a flamigo choice lock (and even then, it does 40% min so it has to be a revenge kill or pivot), a bellibolt (who can just pivot with volt), scyther (who also does 40% min to it with dwb, or it just pivots with u-turn) and tornadus (heat wave can easily 2hko with rocks chip nevermind u-turn). Notice how all of these mons have some way to make toxtricity setting up a pain? Thus, you have to rely on revenge kills a lot for this mon, which while it is certainly effective at doing that, isn't exactly a reliable thing.
I'd also like to discuss the sets. Physical sets I think frankly put, are a fad that will come to pass. The issue is that they struggle with power a lot of the time without LO (which further cuts into its bulk) and while it can potentially surprise some teams, a vast majority also just still beat it (+1 LO drain punch doesn't even good odds to OHKO copperajah, and only a 56% chance with rocks in the picture. Don't even get me started on rhyperior or duraludon LOL). In time they will very much fade away since they just aren't reliable. Scarf and specs are more interesting. Scarf I generally dislike, while it can surprise a few people, its having to lock into two very abusable STAB options if the opponent gets it right and unlike specs, it does not immediately destroy targets if they get a wrong predict (flygon for instance can live boomburst once). Specs is a good breaker, but IDT much more. It has insane power, but relies on teammates to get it in and has stabs that have immunities, meaning effective teams can punish its choice lock and regain momentum. Its initial speed also isn't anything gamebreaking, its good, but most teams will have 2-3 mons that outspeed.
Thus, we have the main set that causes controversy, special attacking shift gear. While this is toxtricitys best set, it also does have its flaws. Typically toxtricity requires two turns to get going, and unlike pokemon such as Porygon-z which could pick either one, toxtricity cannot do this as easily. Without shift gear, it is very easy to revenge kill due to its 4x ground weakness and mediocre speed, but without activating throat spray, its power is simply 'good' and a lot of special walls can trade with it effectively. Its one time use also means toxtricity really wants to stay in, as if its forced to switch out its damage output is very much reduced. This is a set that you 100% respect, but once you do its usually pretty dealable.


I also decided to compile the round 8/9 ssnl's replays to see if I was just being clueless about this stuff. So lets go through them.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-913836 Toxtricity is brought out by a roar swampert, but is immediately forced to switch out since spdef pert can tank a boomburst. Never comes back in again.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-913841 comes out at the end of the game on a raikou, sets up shift gear then claims raikou. Mudsdale comes back in and lives a +1 boomburst and ko's back. To note that mudsdale dodged two tail slaps beforehand but hax is part of the game lol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-913981 Shift gears on reuniclus who clicks knock to remove throat spray and ko's reun. Zong comes in, toxt does 30% and gets eq'd into dust.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-914022 Toxtricity comes in on chansey clicking seismic toss, and while it does force tera ghost and ko's it with thief, its forced out by gligar only to be sacked to a reun.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-914025 Comes in on toxicroak but dies to +2 tera dark knock.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nu-2552401361-yclykiubyjk1efr698x5f7ephku62yxpw Double toxt wooo. Bernardo's toxt clicks boomburst on klefki for 41% but is forced out (probably scared of lagging tail switcheroo). Xiri's toxt comes in on a sack of klefki, and does 76% to vapo before being forced out by rhyperior. Comes back in later but is forced out by a sack of vapo into rhyperior. Later ko's rhyperior with tera boomburst and cleans the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nu-2552408057-n80wrn23vv28gcdjilcdkmjx0srlhsjpw Leads into duraludon, but volt switches into vapo. Later comes in on torn and volt switches on the belli. Comes in a couple of turns later on tsareena knock, revealing scarf. Dura is sacked and toxt is forced out by torn. Comes in for a final time on tsarenna knock again, clicks volt on bellibolt and effectively is dead to rocks chip.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-914381?p2 Comes in on flamigo bb, gets throat chopped (effectively stopping its move), before being ko'd by cc.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-914390 Comes in on altaria, then clicks boomburst into volt switch on duraludon. Ko's a chipped duraludon later on. Comes in lategame on raikou who cm's as toxt shift gears. Raikou tera ice's and ko's toxt with tera blast while boomburst does 54% (though scyther does take the ko afterwards.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-914412?p2 Comes in on -2 goodra late game and boombursts while goodra acid sprays. Switches out due to fear of draco meteor. While goodra is -4 after ko'ing flygon, it clicks shift gear as goodra acid sprays again. Goodra tera steels, lives boombursts and ko's with draco to claim the win.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-915015 Toxtricity comes in on a tsareena and sets up a shift gear, while tsareena is able to knock off its item, revealing LO and after a drain punch, this kinda confirms physical, of which chandelure is able to tank a thief and ko it with fire blast.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nu-2559175908-fretqmfyskydenjoaxcc2a30brrushapw?p2 Toxtricity tries to come in on incin but has to immediately switch to actually get progress since golurk hard walls it. It comes in later and clicks sludge wave on golurk, luckily getting the poison. But it doesn't come back in until its the last mon and with zong and golurk on the field, it can't do anything.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-917239?p2 Comes in on munkidori and clicks tera shift gear as munki clicks trick to gain the throat spray. It claims a low health gligar as incin tera ghosts as incin KO's it with flare blitz.

So out of 13 replays, only really 1 was toxt putting on an exemplary performance. A lot of the time it was either trading at best or just not doing a whole lot. The fact of the matter is teams are very prepared for toxtricity and are able to consistently beat it a good majority of the time. While I get the idea that we should ban things to relieve metagame stress, I don't think NU is in too shabby of a place (compared to other SV tiers at least) and banning toxtricity IDT would really help that much in that scenario. I could at least see it for something like guno even if I feel like its still fine, but toxt is just a pokemon that doesn't make you go too far out of the way to beat it while being managable in game even if your resources against it are flimsy.
 
1773762846341.png

got reqs in a just a few hours using webs WITH the toxic fellow. ive only played NU in roomtours/test games for friends and this was my first time laddering in NU (rly weird experience from other ladders) and i find it manageable. i think its a necessary evil. and more than half the time, i never rly won a game solely due to the toxic guy. i encountered plenty of switch-ins and natural counters for him. a lot of these posts above already cover solid points for both sides, but i believe i will be voting Do Not Ban.
 
Offensive Depth Is Good For Everyone
​
Toxtricity not being banned is a good thing. Offensive depth is important in metagames.

It would be a shame to navigate a post-Toxtricity NU. Multiple existing threats like Flamigo, Duraludon, and Scyther, all feel more emboldened to run around. Notorious fat and greedy chungus mons like Reuniclus, Vaporeon, Glowbro, Swampert, are all ecstatic that Specs Boomburst has left. Existing threats like Specs Chandelure, Specs Munki, so on, will centralize and therefore narrow the defensive coverage necessary in teams. Tornadus becomes even more prominent. When dynamic threats are banned in metagames, players get to rely on less dynamic answers and make the overall experience objectively worse.

You shouldn't be able to solve out every threat in the builder. Every team has weaknesses, glaring or not, and the fact that Toxt will click +1 Drain Punch on your Blissey every 10 games or so isn't worth a ban. Specs is hands down the most obnoxious set he has, and not having to consider having a Ghost Tera or a fat Steel on balance teams is freeing—but at what cost? You have one less major threat to build around, and on the flipside, you need to break Reun and Vaporeon with less.

Here's the thing: Toxtricity is leaving anyways.

1773984069947.png


With a 6% usage in RU, Toxt is leaving us shortly. So regardless if you voted Ban or DNB, we get to play without him. Teams designed around Reuniclus, G-Articuno, Chandelure, and Scream Tail endgames will become increasingly common, with breakers shifting from Specs to Band—being Basculegion, Flamigo, Wet Bull, etc. attempting to prey on the Calm Mind abusers.

This isn't doomsday. Just a potential conclusion of this move. Swampert leads will skyrocket as well, and what we're already seeing a ton of on ladder will consolidate harder. Yes, speed creeping will change. Yes, fringe Pokemon like Cramorant, Tatsugiri, Drifblim, etc. will all see a slight uptick which is fun, but I'm slightly worried there will be a "race to the bottom" in semi-stall builds designed to deal with one less Specs user.

But yeah, some no doubt stock risers:
  1. Banded Basculegion​
  2. Nasty Plot Tornadus​
  3. Flamigo, Munki​
  4. Scyther​
  5. Greedier Duraludon​
Everything else is up for you to decide, and inevitably, find out.

See you on the ladder,
Paladin
 
APOGRAPHA said:
Offensive Depth Is Good For Everyone
​
Toxtricity not being banned is a good thing. Offensive depth is important in metagames.

It would be a shame to navigate a post-Toxtricity NU. Multiple existing threats like Flamigo, Duraludon, and Scyther, all feel more emboldened to run around. Notorious fat and greedy chungus mons like Reuniclus, Vaporeon, Glowbro, Swampert, are all ecstatic that Specs Boomburst has left. Existing threats like Specs Chandelure, Specs Munki, so on, will centralize and therefore narrow the defensive coverage necessary in teams. Tornadus becomes even more prominent. When dynamic threats are banned in metagames, players get to rely on less dynamic answers and make the overall experience objectively worse.

You shouldn't be able to solve out every threat in the builder. Every team has weaknesses, glaring or not, and the fact that Toxt will click +1 Drain Punch on your Blissey every 10 games or so isn't worth a ban. Specs is hands down the most obnoxious set he has, and not having to consider having a Ghost Tera or a fat Steel on balance teams is freeing—but at what cost? You have one less major threat to build around, and on the flipside, you need to break Reun and Vaporeon with less.

Here's the thing: Toxtricity is leaving anyways.

View attachment 817409

With a 6% usage in RU, Toxt is leaving us shortly. So regardless if you voted Ban or DNB, we get to play without him. Teams designed around Reuniclus, G-Articuno, Chandelure, and Scream Tail endgames will become increasingly common, with breakers shifting from Specs to Band—being Basculegion, Flamigo, Wet Bull, etc. attempting to prey on the Calm Mind abusers.

This isn't doomsday. Just a potential conclusion of this move. Swampert leads will skyrocket as well, and what we're already seeing a ton of on ladder will consolidate harder. Yes, speed creeping will change. Yes, fringe Pokemon like Cramorant, Tatsugiri, Drifblim, etc. will all see a slight uptick which is fun, but I'm slightly worried there will be a "race to the bottom" in semi-stall builds designed to deal with one less Specs user.

But yeah, some no doubt stock risers:
  1. Banded Basculegion​
  2. Nasty Plot Tornadus​
  3. Flamigo, Munki​
  4. Scyther​
  5. Greedier Duraludon​
Everything else is up for you to decide, and inevitably, find out.

See you on the ladder,
Paladin
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Smartest Smogon user oat?
 
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