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Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter dhelmise
- Start date
Item Clause might be interesting, and it's not like we have items that are very spammable outside of Lefties. Still gonna suck for some mons, but the items not being present (Band, Specs, Life Orb, Toxic Orb for Gliscor, Flame Orb for Guts users, HDB, etc) will be more of a problem anyway. It'll drastically change the way we approach the tier, and ngl... I'm all for it?
On the metagame itself:
Yeah no they'll quickly get very very banned lmao, they all go stupid for reasons I don't need to specify.
Interested to see how these 2 Uber mons will do here, as they have a lot less reasons to be banned. Kangaskhan lost Seismic Toss and PuP, it will still be a very good mega (Parental Bond makes it have the equivalent of 165 base Atk), while Sneasler will certainly be balanced at least before we get Surge setters. It has to rely on White Herb, or Normal Gem, or Focus Sash to get Unburden up, Dire Claw is still very stupid but we'll see.
This one will go very stupid, Swords Dance even without Return on this profile is scary, SD/CC/Facade/Mach Punch or Triple Axel is very stupid.
Biggest buff of the bunch, getting Poltergeist in this meta might make it very good, too bad no Choice Band or Z move or Life Orb but it'll manage I think, it can still do the same SD sets it used to do, or mixed, no SubToxic tho.
I expect all of these new megas to be really good. Item clause and the poor pool of items means a mega slot isn't as bad as it used to be, and it helps Greninja or Clefable in particular, I can even imagine regular Clefable running its mega stone anyway and mega evolving if it needs the Ground immunity or Magic Bounce. Greninja-Mega will go hard, one of the fastest unboosted mons, behind Sceptile-Mega, Beedrill-Mega and Aerodactyl-Mega, combined with a really great coverage. Delphox-Mega after a Nasty Plot will go hard. I expect Meganium, Feraligatr and Froslass to at least have some viability in the tier. Finally Floette will go very stupid, we have some annoying Steels for it, but otherwise you need to be very careful around that thing, I might try to run some SubCM sets with DKiss, it might be worth a try.
Very stupid.
I'm a believer but I don't expect it to be that good.
I fully expect it to go stupid.
No Toxic Orb RIP bozo
Not much to say, we have a lot of very good utility mons, it's cool to see.
Also a very good pool of offensive threats, Gardevoir-Mega in particular will shine because no Tapu Lele to steal its spotlight.
Sun is very interesting, it has like, one great setter and 2 great abusers, no Great Tusk means removing hazards will be slightly less easy but we have Excadrill so it's fine.
Rain on the other hand lost MegaPert, but will also manage just fine I think? We'll be able to experiment with the mega slot (I can already imagine Greninja-Mega going stupid, but maybe Manectric will have a niche).
Sand might shine.
On the metagame itself:
Yeah no they'll quickly get very very banned lmao, they all go stupid for reasons I don't need to specify. Interested to see how these 2 Uber mons will do here, as they have a lot less reasons to be banned. Kangaskhan lost Seismic Toss and PuP, it will still be a very good mega (Parental Bond makes it have the equivalent of 165 base Atk), while Sneasler will certainly be balanced at least before we get Surge setters. It has to rely on White Herb, or Normal Gem, or Focus Sash to get Unburden up, Dire Claw is still very stupid but we'll see. This one will go very stupid, Swords Dance even without Return on this profile is scary, SD/CC/Facade/Mach Punch or Triple Axel is very stupid. Biggest buff of the bunch, getting Poltergeist in this meta might make it very good, too bad no Choice Band or Z move or Life Orb but it'll manage I think, it can still do the same SD sets it used to do, or mixed, no SubToxic tho. I expect all of these new megas to be really good. Item clause and the poor pool of items means a mega slot isn't as bad as it used to be, and it helps Greninja or Clefable in particular, I can even imagine regular Clefable running its mega stone anyway and mega evolving if it needs the Ground immunity or Magic Bounce. Greninja-Mega will go hard, one of the fastest unboosted mons, behind Sceptile-Mega, Beedrill-Mega and Aerodactyl-Mega, combined with a really great coverage. Delphox-Mega after a Nasty Plot will go hard. I expect Meganium, Feraligatr and Froslass to at least have some viability in the tier. Finally Floette will go very stupid, we have some annoying Steels for it, but otherwise you need to be very careful around that thing, I might try to run some SubCM sets with DKiss, it might be worth a try. Very stupid. I'm a believer but I don't expect it to be that good. I fully expect it to go stupid. No Toxic Orb RIP bozo Not much to say, we have a lot of very good utility mons, it's cool to see. Also a very good pool of offensive threats, Gardevoir-Mega in particular will shine because no Tapu Lele to steal its spotlight. Sun is very interesting, it has like, one great setter and 2 great abusers, no Great Tusk means removing hazards will be slightly less easy but we have Excadrill so it's fine. Rain on the other hand lost MegaPert, but will also manage just fine I think? We'll be able to experiment with the mega slot (I can already imagine Greninja-Mega going stupid, but maybe Manectric will have a niche). Sand might shine.I would argue against polt aegislash being good in this meta since so many items are consumable and variety is forced due to item clauseItem Clause might be interesting, and it's not like we have items that are very spammable outside of Lefties. Still gonna suck for some mons, but the items not being present (Band, Specs, Life Orb, Toxic Orb for Gliscor, Flame Orb for Guts users, HDB, etc) will be more of a problem anyway. It'll drastically change the way we approach the tier, and ngl... I'm all for it?
On the metagame itself:
Has anyone tested yet how polergeist works with mega stones yet? That may be a factor. Since they are "special" items I could see gamefreak making the move fail on them
I heard they work on mega stones.
That's indeed a good point. In NatDex or any other regular metagames it'd be good, but it's true that you won't be able to use it that much, especially when Sneasler will certainly be very good and be an Unburden merchant.
I'm interested to see if the general PP nerfs are enough to make Spite actually worth using for the first time. Probably it's still not worth the opportunity cost, but something like:
Sneasler @ Leftovers
Pressure
- Substitute
- Spite
- Dire Claw
- Close Combat or w/e
Seems like it'll be fun to try out. Grab a free Sub on something you can force out, and then you can just make life miserable for anything relying on the plethora of 8 and 12-pp moves in the game. Even a 20pp move can be drained entirely without taking a hit if they come in as you sub, I think.
Curious if dropping a selected move to 0pp before it's executed causes the user to struggle - would make this much more effective if it does, but I suspect not.
Sneasler @ Leftovers
Pressure
- Substitute
- Spite
- Dire Claw
- Close Combat or w/e
Seems like it'll be fun to try out. Grab a free Sub on something you can force out, and then you can just make life miserable for anything relying on the plethora of 8 and 12-pp moves in the game. Even a 20pp move can be drained entirely without taking a hit if they come in as you sub, I think.
Curious if dropping a selected move to 0pp before it's executed causes the user to struggle - would make this much more effective if it does, but I suspect not.
I think Erie Spell would be better just like how heal block isn't really used but psychic noise is nice
surprisingly, pokemon champions has given us a pretty good starter pack balanced singles metagame.
Theres a pack of good offensive threats among the likes of Ceruledge, Kinggambit, Char Y and now Mega Gardevoir in a non lele metagame.
And on the contrary, there’s a good pack of defensive walls and utility monsters, including toxapex, corviknight, and our favorite hazard setter and spinner Excadrill. There’s enough mons for there to be defensive teams, but not enough for there to be hard stall teams.
We were given a load of great offensive pivots in some of the fastest pokemon ever seen in the game, Dragapult, Lopunny-Mega, and Beedrill-Mega to name a few. Speed control will definently be real.
On the topic of Lopunny and Speed, priority seems like it will still be major, Kinggambit remains in the game which means Ekiller Dnite is not dead yet, luckily the metagame does not seem to built around one strong pokemon yet.
We also get to see some new amazing mons shine in a new spotlight, Snealser, Palafin ,and Volcarona seem like they will be able to stick in OU for a bit without some of the things that make them so dominant. Espathra is dead without psychic terrain as well.
For weather teams, well it’s a mega format.
Sun will still be awesome no matter how many of its core four get removed, Char Y and Venusaur are enough, and scovillain is a cool edition. Ceruledge will remain and will definently enjoy the flying immunity that char y grants it.
Rain however…. is in the same boat (get it) Pellipper remains which means rain will never die, we have some good rain swift swim sweepers in the likes of Basculegion, and some great sweepers like Mega Gren, Palafin, and a niche personal pick in Araquinid. Plenty of hurricane and thunder users that will gladly pick up the role as well. Archaludon exists too, no body press though which means it’ll likely be stuck running aura sphere or even utility like stealth rock.
Snow is alive but definently won’t see much usage, sure there’s Ninetails and Abomasnow but the primary mainly is used on screen hyper offense teams and the ladder is… not used. No real snow sweepers means this playstyle may be bones soon. Mega Frosslass in the other hand may just be a sole sweeper, nasty plot blizzard on snow warning will definently do some serious damage, along with boltbeam coverage, but there’s not much left for it to use its ability after that for.
Sand, is real. Ttar and Excadrill the dynamic duo have returned together stronger than ever with Mega Ttar now being back in the game, expect plenty of sand teams i can already think of cb ttar, excadrill, palafin, mega gard, hydrapple and volcarona.
And for those of you who like gimmicks
Trick Room is real.
slowbro will carry this playstyle, followed by our favorite slow offensive threats like Mega Mawile, Camerupt, Meganium etc. I definently expect to see a rise in stuff like this, since trick room allows items to be more strange from what i’ve seen.
Items.
Bad — Definently, but it’s manageable, once people see their ceruledge go absolutely nuclear with bitter blade + charcoal on +2 atk most worries will fade.
Besides, these metagames have been played before, (as in gen 2….) but just imagine it as ADV OU without the one item everyone uses, it will be fine guys, we can wait a month.
Theres a pack of good offensive threats among the likes of Ceruledge, Kinggambit, Char Y and now Mega Gardevoir in a non lele metagame.
And on the contrary, there’s a good pack of defensive walls and utility monsters, including toxapex, corviknight, and our favorite hazard setter and spinner Excadrill. There’s enough mons for there to be defensive teams, but not enough for there to be hard stall teams.
We were given a load of great offensive pivots in some of the fastest pokemon ever seen in the game, Dragapult, Lopunny-Mega, and Beedrill-Mega to name a few. Speed control will definently be real.
On the topic of Lopunny and Speed, priority seems like it will still be major, Kinggambit remains in the game which means Ekiller Dnite is not dead yet, luckily the metagame does not seem to built around one strong pokemon yet.
We also get to see some new amazing mons shine in a new spotlight, Snealser, Palafin ,and Volcarona seem like they will be able to stick in OU for a bit without some of the things that make them so dominant. Espathra is dead without psychic terrain as well.
For weather teams, well it’s a mega format.
Sun will still be awesome no matter how many of its core four get removed, Char Y and Venusaur are enough, and scovillain is a cool edition. Ceruledge will remain and will definently enjoy the flying immunity that char y grants it.
Rain however…. is in the same boat (get it) Pellipper remains which means rain will never die, we have some good rain swift swim sweepers in the likes of Basculegion, and some great sweepers like Mega Gren, Palafin, and a niche personal pick in Araquinid. Plenty of hurricane and thunder users that will gladly pick up the role as well. Archaludon exists too, no body press though which means it’ll likely be stuck running aura sphere or even utility like stealth rock.
Snow is alive but definently won’t see much usage, sure there’s Ninetails and Abomasnow but the primary mainly is used on screen hyper offense teams and the ladder is… not used. No real snow sweepers means this playstyle may be bones soon. Mega Frosslass in the other hand may just be a sole sweeper, nasty plot blizzard on snow warning will definently do some serious damage, along with boltbeam coverage, but there’s not much left for it to use its ability after that for.
Sand, is real. Ttar and Excadrill the dynamic duo have returned together stronger than ever with Mega Ttar now being back in the game, expect plenty of sand teams i can already think of cb ttar, excadrill, palafin, mega gard, hydrapple and volcarona.
And for those of you who like gimmicks
Trick Room is real.
slowbro will carry this playstyle, followed by our favorite slow offensive threats like Mega Mawile, Camerupt, Meganium etc. I definently expect to see a rise in stuff like this, since trick room allows items to be more strange from what i’ve seen.
Items.
Bad — Definently, but it’s manageable, once people see their ceruledge go absolutely nuclear with bitter blade + charcoal on +2 atk most worries will fade.
Besides, these metagames have been played before, (as in gen 2….) but just imagine it as ADV OU without the one item everyone uses, it will be fine guys, we can wait a month.
How long until we ban quick draw quick claw?
Why we would do that?
It's already banned in SV OU along with bright powder and king's rock. 10% chance effects that you cannot outplay, only hope it doesn't proc. And they're super strong when they do proc.
I am on the side of Banning RNG items even if we have a low amount of them.
Speaking of them, resist and sitrus berries would need to be used on defensive squad bc we have 1 leftovers to use. I imagine more defensive oriented teams being a mega (or 2 depending on match ups), a scarf mon, 1 mon with lefties and the rest with resist berries. Also they gonna need at least 1 unaware mon with all the setup sweepers.
Weird to not nuke most broken megas like Gengar and Stoise from day 1
Speaking of them, resist and sitrus berries would need to be used on defensive squad bc we have 1 leftovers to use. I imagine more defensive oriented teams being a mega (or 2 depending on match ups), a scarf mon, 1 mon with lefties and the rest with resist berries. Also they gonna need at least 1 unaware mon with all the setup sweepers.
Weird to not nuke most broken megas like Gengar and Stoise from day 1
I imagine this meta will be super warped around megas. Look at the sm ou vr- there were 19 non megas ranked A or higher. Only 5 are in champions. And most of those are super nerfed- gren lost battle bond and protean got a huge nerf, pex lost scald, gliscor doesn't even have toxic orb. Only drill and serp didn't lose anything massive.
And that's just the mons missing- compared to sm there's also no z moves, as well as obviously huge numbers of items missing and item clause. Power level of everything else has gone down massively, and megas are essentially unaffected. I expect previously balanced megas like the zards will be too strong for this meta, and the ones that dont get banned will warp the meta around themselves hugely
And that's just the mons missing- compared to sm there's also no z moves, as well as obviously huge numbers of items missing and item clause. Power level of everything else has gone down massively, and megas are essentially unaffected. I expect previously balanced megas like the zards will be too strong for this meta, and the ones that dont get banned will warp the meta around themselves hugely
Neither Quick Claw nor Quick Draw is banned in SV OU.
Fwiw I'm likely going to advocate for a sleep unban. With it's mechanic change in Champions, it is incredibly more palatable and causes much less variance. Inaccurate sleep is likely just bad now, with you at best getting one free turn, with no opportunity for two. I think the only real two use cases of it will be for:
A) Faster setup sweepers that will attempt to abuse the potential free turn
B) Slower spore users that use it for the free pivot.
A) Faster setup sweepers that will attempt to abuse the potential free turn
B) Slower spore users that use it for the free pivot.
Turn 1 of sleep: Does not wake up
Turn 2 of sleep: 1/3 to wake up
Turn 3 of sleep: Guaranteed to wake up
Turn 2 of sleep: 1/3 to wake up
Turn 3 of sleep: Guaranteed to wake up
Last edited:
I agree about the nerfed sleep mechanic, seems a lot less threatening now in a Singles format. If you’re a fast sleep user, you put the Mon to sleep and then they lose their action that turn and instantly have a 33% chance to wake up the ‘free’ turn that you’d switch into something advantageous, or get the one turn to boost with SD, NP, QD or whatever. Seems much more manageable now.
I also am of the mindset that since things like flinch chance and paralysis and burn are all RNG on certain moves, it’s no better or worse (imo) than the 10% chance you’d get from the items that cause those things, especially in a meta where your pool of items to choose from is much smaller. In a brand new metagame, I don’t see why it would hurt to start at the bare minimum with everything allowed and then make adjustments as you go.
If Kings rock or whatever other item just starts being totally unbearable, there’s nothing stopping leadership from addressing it at that point, no? But at the very beginning of a new game, I’d personally like to use all the tools available and adjust from there.
I wouldn’t advocate for an item clause and then further advocate for taking away items afterwards, at least not without a body of work to support the action.
I also am of the mindset that since things like flinch chance and paralysis and burn are all RNG on certain moves, it’s no better or worse (imo) than the 10% chance you’d get from the items that cause those things, especially in a meta where your pool of items to choose from is much smaller. In a brand new metagame, I don’t see why it would hurt to start at the bare minimum with everything allowed and then make adjustments as you go.
If Kings rock or whatever other item just starts being totally unbearable, there’s nothing stopping leadership from addressing it at that point, no? But at the very beginning of a new game, I’d personally like to use all the tools available and adjust from there.
I wouldn’t advocate for an item clause and then further advocate for taking away items afterwards, at least not without a body of work to support the action.
Hi everyone!
I'm very new to actually playing competitive but i follow the scene since 2008. When Champions was announced i was excited to play a (as we now know not-so) pretty game, akin to Stadium and PBR, where i could find online opponents without needing to beg my friends to play with me. It not having 6v6 was a killing blow for me.
That being said, what i hope for COU is:
- 6v6, that shouldn't even be discussed. We can play VGC and BSS otherwise.
- Item clause should stay. I think that would be fun to test for a while, and if proven that the metagame is bad, that can be changed. The main reason for it is that, if multiple items are allowed, people will pretty much spam leftovers as the item pool is very limited. It will definetly be updated as time goes by, and so COU could be too. Having just one copy will create cool uses for other items and teams will probably have more than one possible mega.
- RNG items i would prefer them banned. Bright powder, king's rock and quick claw are not fun and dumb items in my opinion (especially evasion items), but i can also understand they staying around for now.
- Smogon wide clauses should be kept, but since sleep has been nerfed, i think it's okay to try it out for now.
I'm really looking forward to play COU and i'm keeping my expectations very low for Champions adding 6v6 (but there's still hope).
I'm very new to actually playing competitive but i follow the scene since 2008. When Champions was announced i was excited to play a (as we now know not-so) pretty game, akin to Stadium and PBR, where i could find online opponents without needing to beg my friends to play with me. It not having 6v6 was a killing blow for me.
That being said, what i hope for COU is:
- 6v6, that shouldn't even be discussed. We can play VGC and BSS otherwise.
- Item clause should stay. I think that would be fun to test for a while, and if proven that the metagame is bad, that can be changed. The main reason for it is that, if multiple items are allowed, people will pretty much spam leftovers as the item pool is very limited. It will definetly be updated as time goes by, and so COU could be too. Having just one copy will create cool uses for other items and teams will probably have more than one possible mega.
- RNG items i would prefer them banned. Bright powder, king's rock and quick claw are not fun and dumb items in my opinion (especially evasion items), but i can also understand they staying around for now.
- Smogon wide clauses should be kept, but since sleep has been nerfed, i think it's okay to try it out for now.
I'm really looking forward to play COU and i'm keeping my expectations very low for Champions adding 6v6 (but there's still hope).
hiya, for those who don't know me, I am a BSS main and have been roped into helping with this tier by dhelmise
Over the day and change since Champions release I have played quite a bit of BSS, and I've reached max rank on the singles ladder. Given that BSS and Champions OU will have significantly more overlap than prior generations I wanted to share my thoughts on a few of the anticipated problem children for the COU metagame.
As of writing this I am hovering around 1800 elo on the BSS ladder in champions, you can see the general lineup I am using in the attached image
with that out of the way, here are my takes on some of the more divisive pokes
- Just gonna get my hottest take out of the way right off the bat, I do not think this guy is too big of an issue. Yeah yeah Stag is stupid etc but honestly, I've found it to be relatively tame so far. Its speed tier is still good but nowhere near what it was back in its hayday and new additions like Dragapult can make quick work of it. That's not to say MGar isn't supremely threatening. I still believe it to be far in a way the most consistent and best mega available currently and Nasty Plot variants are some of the most punishing sets around. I believe this will get looked at, and I think it should, but I remain to be convinced that it will be a slam dunk ban.
- Heard a lot of people talking about how this guy will be insane with hazard control options being so limited and I half agree. Its a great pokemon and Ceaseless Edge is phenomenal pressure with both the damage and spike setting. I find it not quite as impactful as one would think, though. Its fantastic, don't get me wrong, but at least in the context of BSS I find it hard to consistently justify. Perhaps this will change when you are allowed to use your entire team at all times though.
- It's like, fine I guess. Its strong, its fast, Dire Claw is insane, albeit less so given the nerf. I have tried it out a couple times and while it does put in good work it is far from consistent. Getting a Swords Dance up is pretty difficult a lot of the time and activating Unburden can be a hassle as well. The most consistent method is Close Combat with White Herb, but this has a pretty consistent foil in just having a Ghost-type to block the incoming CC. Aegislash in particular gives negative fucks about Sneasler, and while Gengar is more readily threatened by non Throat Chop moves it still isn't going to instantly fold the vast majority of the time. Sneasler is also very vulnerable to being burned, which will completely ruin it. It's not too hard to threaten a burn either with pokes like Dragapult, Arcanine, and Gengar being very solid picks.
- Now this is what I expect to actually be a problem child. Throughout my time playing Champions, most of my losses and some of my most difficult games have been when this guy is present. Its got Intimidate in its base form to make setting up easier, and its STAB combination in tandem with a very basic coverage option like Earthquake make it extremely difficult for tons of teams to stand up to. The vast majority of its consistent checks are but one flinch away from being completely helpless, and while I don't believe it to be unmanageable I do find it to be probably the most difficult thing to naturally prepare for currently.
Special mention to too, this ability is absolutely insane. If you directly damage this guy at all, you're burned. I don't think I need to go into detail why that is such a bananas ability to have, its stats will likely hold it back from being too much but I can see a lot of frustration coming from this guy and what it can do.
Over the day and change since Champions release I have played quite a bit of BSS, and I've reached max rank on the singles ladder. Given that BSS and Champions OU will have significantly more overlap than prior generations I wanted to share my thoughts on a few of the anticipated problem children for the COU metagame.
As of writing this I am hovering around 1800 elo on the BSS ladder in champions, you can see the general lineup I am using in the attached image
with that out of the way, here are my takes on some of the more divisive pokes
- Just gonna get my hottest take out of the way right off the bat, I do not think this guy is too big of an issue. Yeah yeah Stag is stupid etc but honestly, I've found it to be relatively tame so far. Its speed tier is still good but nowhere near what it was back in its hayday and new additions like Dragapult can make quick work of it. That's not to say MGar isn't supremely threatening. I still believe it to be far in a way the most consistent and best mega available currently and Nasty Plot variants are some of the most punishing sets around. I believe this will get looked at, and I think it should, but I remain to be convinced that it will be a slam dunk ban. - Heard a lot of people talking about how this guy will be insane with hazard control options being so limited and I half agree. Its a great pokemon and Ceaseless Edge is phenomenal pressure with both the damage and spike setting. I find it not quite as impactful as one would think, though. Its fantastic, don't get me wrong, but at least in the context of BSS I find it hard to consistently justify. Perhaps this will change when you are allowed to use your entire team at all times though. - It's like, fine I guess. Its strong, its fast, Dire Claw is insane, albeit less so given the nerf. I have tried it out a couple times and while it does put in good work it is far from consistent. Getting a Swords Dance up is pretty difficult a lot of the time and activating Unburden can be a hassle as well. The most consistent method is Close Combat with White Herb, but this has a pretty consistent foil in just having a Ghost-type to block the incoming CC. Aegislash in particular gives negative fucks about Sneasler, and while Gengar is more readily threatened by non Throat Chop moves it still isn't going to instantly fold the vast majority of the time. Sneasler is also very vulnerable to being burned, which will completely ruin it. It's not too hard to threaten a burn either with pokes like Dragapult, Arcanine, and Gengar being very solid picks. - Now this is what I expect to actually be a problem child. Throughout my time playing Champions, most of my losses and some of my most difficult games have been when this guy is present. Its got Intimidate in its base form to make setting up easier, and its STAB combination in tandem with a very basic coverage option like Earthquake make it extremely difficult for tons of teams to stand up to. The vast majority of its consistent checks are but one flinch away from being completely helpless, and while I don't believe it to be unmanageable I do find it to be probably the most difficult thing to naturally prepare for currently.Special mention to
too, this ability is absolutely insane. If you directly damage this guy at all, you're burned. I don't think I need to go into detail why that is such a bananas ability to have, its stats will likely hold it back from being too much but I can see a lot of frustration coming from this guy and what it can do.
i talked abt this earlier and while yes sleep has gotten nerfed i do still think that
no sleep is more competitive than any amount of sleep
Sleep Ban is more faithful to the games than Sleep Clause
I'm not advocating for sleep clause, I think this is an opportunity to try unrestricted sleep, I'd like us to take another look at sleep with it acting completely differently rather than grandfathering in a ban.