Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

Out of curiosity, let’s say that the main sleep abusers did get put into Champions after a while. What exactly would they abuse with the new sleep mechanics?

Valiant would put a Mon to sleep, then attempt to set up a SD or Calm Mind the next turn… which the opponent now has a 1/3 chance to wake up from immediately, and if not, they guarantee wake up the following turn. So any version of sleep with the nerf gives one free turn, which mons like Valiant generate on switches alone. Doesn’t seem much different to me. Free turns are a big component of 6v6 by default but the new version of sleep seems much less advantageous to me than what it used to be.

Then again, maybe I’m not seeing the whole picture here.. and if not, my apologies.
 
Out of curiosity, let’s say that the main sleep abusers did get put into Champions after a while. What exactly would they abuse with the new sleep mechanics?

Valiant would put a Mon to sleep, then attempt to set up a SD or Calm Mind the next turn… which the opponent now has a 1/3 chance to wake up from immediately, and if not, they guarantee wake up the following turn. So any version of sleep with the nerf gives one free turn, which mons like Valiant generate on switches alone. Doesn’t seem much different to me. Free turns are a big component of 6v6 by default but the new version of sleep seems much less advantageous to me than what it used to be.

Then again, maybe I’m not seeing the whole picture here.. and if not, my apologies.
Ok, so Iron Valiant generates a free turn to click SD by chasing something out as the counter switches in. Then, I-Val clicks Hypnosis and puts the "counter" to sleep. Now what do you?
 
I just wanted to mention, it doesn't look like the evasion clause is in full effect. I just fought a team on ladder that had snow cloak Glaceon, and I checked team builder after and found that I could put Bright Powder, Snow Cloak, and Sand Veil on mons still. Minimize was picked up as an evasion move, but none of those seem to be removed yet.
 
On the subject of banning things otherthan Evasion and Moody
:gengar-mega:
The only “nerf” Mega Gengar recieved is losing moves it never learned when it existed. It infact got buffed because you no longer can Pursuit trap so it can always escape from Tyranitar to get a KO on another Pokemon.
And there is no Shed Shell.
And it gained Nasty Plot too.
The sole other change that affects Mega Gengar is that now Dragapult, Mega Delphox, and Mega Greninja outspeed it.
Nothing else relevant has changed and this is a Pokemon that’s considered AG worthy by many.
There is no doubt that this needs to go. If you don’t tailor make every Pokemon on your team to beat Mega Gengar, you will lose that Pokemon. This then easily enables the rest of Gengar’s team. Eliminating Skarmory or Corviknight for Dragonite. Eliminating Pelipper to ensure your weather dominance. Eliminating Mega Meganium or Mega Feraligatr so you can’t break past Stall cores.

:alakazam-mega:
Mega Mega Meowstic got to keep Nasty Plot. With the limited Dex, your best case for even thinking about stopping this thing is priority, hope you win a speed tie with your own Mega Zam, or use a Choice Scarf. It hits so hard that Umbreon is easily 2HKO’d by Dazzling Gleam without even investing into SpA after a Nasty Plot.
+2 0 SpA Alakazam-Mega Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 118-140 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can even 2HKO Florges with Psychic after Nasty Plot.
+2 0 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 88-105 (47.5 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That is comically overpowered. You then can invest into Def so that Palafin needs Rain to KO you with Jet Punch
252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Alakazam-Mega: 82-97 (63 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mystic Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Alakazam-Mega in Rain: 123-145 (93.8 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
And even in Rain, Jet Punch from Adamant Palafin isn’t even a guaranteed KO. Oh and it also allows Alakazam to potentially survive 2 Foul Plays
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Alakazam-Mega: 60-72 (45.8 - 54.9%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO
This is arguably even more broken than Mega Gengar. Arguably.
 
Welp I got a funny one

:clefable-mega:
Clefable-Mega (M) @ Clefablite
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 20 Def / 14 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Misty Explosion / Moonblast
- Icy Wind / Thunder Wave / Encore

This is... a somewhat solid HO lead / counterlead actually

Can't get taunted / encored, tanks a hit from even the worst offenders in the metagame (:gengar-mega:, :glimmora:) and guarantees you hazard advantage + momentum vs every other HO / rocks lead (taunt :aerodactyl:, :garchomp:) with the combination of Magic Bounce, Twave/Icy Wind and Fairy Boom.
Haven't faced a :Glimmora-mega: yet but regular sash lead gets farmed. EVs have room to be optimized much more.

Funny replay here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2580809897

I admit I got cooked by Mold Breaker :Tinkaton: at one point, but if you're willing to sac your mega to snowball HO this might actually be an option to consider.
Meta lowkey looks to be shifting towards fat somehow so I'm not sure if this will hold, but it's a funny one to build around.
 
Last edited:
Shouldn't :blastoise-mega: Mega Blastoise and :alakazam-mega: Mega Zam be banned? Both set up once and then threaten to 6-0 you if you didn't chip it into range of your priority

Also King's Rock is legal? I've been using it and fishing for Meowscarada triple axel flinches, it seems like an unnecessary troll even if it's not the best (especially with items clause)

(same for Bright Powder which is just cheese)
 
Given that Arena trap on trapinch was seen as uncompetetive in other gens, i dont see a way how Mega Gengar shouldnt be seen as uncompetetive in this tier and it should be banned. mega luc and mega zam are the other 2 mons that should be looked at for a quick ban.
out of non megas, palafin is strong but migth be manageabkle without tera. I think it should be suspected after the quick bans.
 
For those who are interested in hearing me yapping, I have been an advocate National Dex player for the past 3-4 years. It is the format I mostly play in the platform, but I still do ocasionally enjoy other formats as well. This imo, is a format that has a lot of potential to grow big going forward. Outside of the early game chaos, the metagame itself feels enjoyable, the flexibility between 3 current modes (vgc, 6v6, 3v3) is a good start to get more people engaged. There is of course, some early game inbalace in 6v6 that with proper care is easily salvagable, so I dont think I need to mention the elephant in the room, but...

11401.jpg


I decided to leave an early list of mons that need to be taken care of to keep the meta healthy.
:gengar-mega:
I think its pretty obvious why this need to hut the Uber tier whenever that gets created. Sure it lost Encore, making it less frustrating, but it is STILL frustrating to deal with its ease of trapping regardless. Moreover, without Pursuit in the game, Mega Gengar can freely spam attacks and simply retreat uncontested in the few bad matchups the mon has. The quicker this mon gets banned, the better for the metagame as a whole.

:sneasler:
While this mon does have counteeplay, mostly in Aegislash, teams without a Ghost type are bound to get steamrolled by this mon after hitting with a Close Combat, amd triggering White Herb. And even if it wasnt an issue now, it will become an issue IF the Terrains and their corresponding seeds where to return to the scene, in which case, it would simply be unbearable.

:blastoise-mega:
One move, Shell Smash. I will admit, I havent faced this mon too much (probably because of other mons taking the spotlight) but this mon can just steamroll teams with ease. This comes from a guy who played against Mega Blastoise in gen 8 Natdex with Shell Smash Blastoise legal, and from prior experience, it is best to keep out of the format.

:espathra:
This mon screams nothing but trouble, with good odds on coming out on top in the right matchup by snowballing via Calm Minds + Speed Boost powering Stored Power, an overall very frustrating experience to deal with currently. Sure Steel types help, but it can even still run through them with the proper setup.

There is likely more mons to handle afterwards, Im personally keeping an eye out for Mega Froslass and Mega Floette for example, but these mons should take prority in this current environment. I hope you guys are enjoying the format, and hopefully my takes where of good use.
 
Last edited:
the first season ends around May 13th, which I think is when they'll do a drop. They could always decide to do things in-between but that would be my #1 guess of when to expect new stuff
it's likely in June, as that's when the next regulation starts (presumably, the one being used for worlds), rather than May, as the second season is supposed to be on M-A as well. I'd like to be wrong, though.
 
:sneasler:
While this mon does have counteeplay, mostly in Aegislash, teams without a Ghost type are bound to get steamrolled by this mon after hitting with a Close Combat, amd triggering White Herb. And even if it wasnt an issue now, it will become an issue IF the Terrains and their corresponding seeds where to return to the scene, in which case, it would simply be unbearable.

:blastoise-mega:
One move, Shell Smash

:espathra:
This mon screams nothing but trouble

Agreed on all 3 points. I've used all 3 mons, and while the other 2 are absurd too, the standout ban for me is :sneasler: Sneasler.

Sneasler is what I call a "Just use priority" mon, where it has insane speed and power and priority is the only counterplay for offensive teams. The problem is the tier is full of these mons (Blatoise, Zam, Gengar, Delphox, Espathra, and also dozens of niche mons after a boost), so many or even all of your prio mons/defensive pieces might be dead by the time Sneasler comes in.
Not to mention everybody is taking rocks damage, and clearing hazards can be difficult when a turn using rapid spin or defog might be GG as a blastoise clicks shell smash and kills you

and then the real problem of Sneasler that sets it apart from the rest.
This thing has ridiculous set variety (I've seen each of White Herb, Sitrus, Sash, and Poison Touch several times so far), when you see it you never know what it might be. If you guess that it has the wrong set, you can sometimes just lose the game on the spot. And even if you guess right you usually still lose a mon because of how powerful this thing is, which can mean a lost game if another broken mon is able to capitalize
  • White Herb is by far the most reliable to activate, but it takes more time to get going cuz it has to click CC and SD separately... unless you're running a webs team, then you lost the game on the spot, thanks for playing. If you can't kill this thing fast enough it can just win
  • A bulkier Sitrus set can click SD and survive with 50-70% HP after Sitrus, which is enough to live weaker priority attacks that would have been able to handle the other sets (or weak hits from defensive mons). If you only had 1 prio user left, it's game over
  • Sash is imo weaker because any hazards or priority kill it, but it can still cheese out wins in the lategame by outplaying sucker punches or if your priority users are dead (a common case in this metagame). And as a bonus it can revenge kill any sweeper if hazards are kept off
    • Sash Reversal is also super funny if you can manage to proc it, you can do things like 2HKO pex on the switch and OHKO corviknight
  • And lastly Poison Touch can sometimes work, because Sneasler's natural speed tier is already high even without Unburden. So if you're not expecting the extra 20% or so + possible poison from Fake Out, your counter to sneasler can suddenly crumble to dust (especially if your revengekillers or walls are chipped from countering all the other brokens in the tier, prio mon comes in at 45%, takes 12% from rocks, 25% from fake out, 12% from poison, and bam you lost the game gg)
    • haven't tried it but poison touch with fake out + uturn might be able to wear down some of its defensive answers too, although at least things like Aegislash or Pex are poison immune
that's not even all, I bet someone out there is running Fling or Lum Berry or a resist berry (all of which are real sets IMO), and if Sneasler is in the right situation for that item, it just wins

Same for defensive counterplay (as little as there is) being thwarted by random moveset adaptations. A Throat Chop Sneasler can kill the Aegislash you thought would be able to handle it (Shadow Claw crit or Fire Punch could do something too although they don't reliably kill). Gunk Shot over Dire Claw can pick up an unexpected kill. Quick Attack can beat a Palafin or a Kingambit trying to revenge it
And there might be more, I tried out Sash + Counter and was able to kill a +4 def corv as it used brave bird

and once Sneasler gets an inch, it takes a mile and can easily pack you up. Insane amount of power for a mon that doesn't take a mega slot, can't be copied by Ditto, and can easily adapt to item clause

OH and I totally forgot that Dire Claw can just randomly put the target to sleep, and instantly win the game, cuz it's turbo rare for there to be multiple mons on a team that live 2 hits from boosted sneasler
 
I haven't played any Champions OU, so I can't say for certain how match-ups actually play out, but could :Espathra: Espathra potentially run moves other than Dazzling Gleam in lieu of Tera Blast? The main move I've been thinking about is U-turn.

Since Espathra is a threat that needs to be taken care of quickly, people would theoretically switch into a Dark- or Steel-type to shut it down. U-turn would allow Espathra to capitalize off of those defensive switches, bringing in a teammate that can take better care of their switch in, like Mega Lucario or Garchomp. This would probably require good hazard control to prevent Espathra from being worn down too quickly, but in theory, it seems like it could be very potent, wearing down the opponent until Espathra (or one of its teammates) can clean late game. Again, I can't say anything for certain since I haven't played COU, so I can't say if it's actually a good strategy or not, but it seems like a potential alternative to Dazzling Gleam (or maybe its secondary status-move) that could be worth considering.
 
Honestly the battling system for OU should be 3v3.
I have no clue why, if given the option to mod anything in the game, the highest priority would be changing the game from 3v3 to 6v6.
No modding in items
No removing item clause
No removing unnessary RNG like Toxic missing or preventing Freeze
Instead making it so 6v6 is playable.
The second time Smogon is willing to break their cart accuracy rule on purpose, its this? It’s pretty underwhelming, especially since it honestly makes the gameplay less interesting and less balanced.
Threats like Mega Gengar, Mega Alakazam, Mega Blastoise, Espathra, and Sneasler are much stronger in a 6v6 format instead of the bring 6 pick 3 style since you’ll use a bunch of your resources beating 1 threat, only to to have Kingambit or Dragonite or what ever in the back clean up. Or how Pokemon like Glimmora setting up hazards then dying is more costly in b6p3 style.

If you’re willing to mod the game for this, can you at least mod out the uncompetitive elements? Or just be consistent and make OU a b6p3 format?
 
Honestly the battling system for OU should be 3v3.
I have no clue why, if given the option to mod anything in the game, the highest priority would be changing the game from 3v3 to 6v6.
No modding in items
No removing item clause
No removing unnessary RNG like Toxic missing or preventing Freeze
Instead making it so 6v6 is playable.
The second time Smogon is willing to break their cart accuracy rule on purpose, its this? It’s pretty underwhelming, especially since it honestly makes the gameplay less interesting and less balanced.
Threats like Mega Gengar, Mega Alakazam, Mega Blastoise, Espathra, and Sneasler are much stronger in a 6v6 format instead of the bring 6 pick 3 style since you’ll use a bunch of your resources beating 1 threat, only to to have Kingambit or Dragonite or what ever in the back clean up. Or how Pokemon like Glimmora setting up hazards then dying is more costly in b6p3 style.

If you’re willing to mod the game for this, can you at least mod out the uncompetitive elements? Or just be consistent and make OU a b6p3 format?
Isn’t all OUs 6v6? I just assumed there’s a separate section of Showdown for Champions BSS. Which would be what you’re describing but with a Smogon banlist?

I wouldn’t play OU in any tier if it wasn’t 6v6. I personally hate 3v3 and Doubles formats. So this is the only place I can currently go for a 6v6 singles format with the Champions mechanics and mons.

If Champions (the actual game) adds in a 6v6 mode down the line, I most likely would just play that, but until then, this is the closest thing I have to doing 6v6 battles with everything else modeled after Champions (including items, nerfs, and roster)… at least until NatDex tiers decide to adopt Champions stuff.
 
Honestly the battling system for OU should be 3v3.
I have no clue why, if given the option to mod anything in the game, the highest priority would be changing the game from 3v3 to 6v6.
No modding in items
No removing item clause
No removing unnessary RNG like Toxic missing or preventing Freeze
Instead making it so 6v6 is playable.
The second time Smogon is willing to break their cart accuracy rule on purpose, its this? It’s pretty underwhelming, especially since it honestly makes the gameplay less interesting and less balanced.
Threats like Mega Gengar, Mega Alakazam, Mega Blastoise, Espathra, and Sneasler are much stronger in a 6v6 format instead of the bring 6 pick 3 style since you’ll use a bunch of your resources beating 1 threat, only to to have Kingambit or Dragonite or what ever in the back clean up. Or how Pokemon like Glimmora setting up hazards then dying is more costly in b6p3 style.

If you’re willing to mod the game for this, can you at least mod out the uncompetitive elements? Or just be consistent and make OU a b6p3 format?
1776028966981.png


We can run this bro


WWWWHHHHYYYYY?


:psycry:
 
Honestly the battling system for OU should be 3v3.
I have no clue why, if given the option to mod anything in the game, the highest priority would be changing the game from 3v3 to 6v6.
No modding in items
No removing item clause
No removing unnessary RNG like Toxic missing or preventing Freeze
Instead making it so 6v6 is playable.
The second time Smogon is willing to break their cart accuracy rule on purpose, its this? It’s pretty underwhelming, especially since it honestly makes the gameplay less interesting and less balanced.
Threats like Mega Gengar, Mega Alakazam, Mega Blastoise, Espathra, and Sneasler are much stronger in a 6v6 format instead of the bring 6 pick 3 style since you’ll use a bunch of your resources beating 1 threat, only to to have Kingambit or Dragonite or what ever in the back clean up. Or how Pokemon like Glimmora setting up hazards then dying is more costly in b6p3 style.

If you’re willing to mod the game for this, can you at least mod out the uncompetitive elements? Or just be consistent and make OU a b6p3 format?
We've been over this a million times, BSS is already implemented and anyone who doesn't want to play 6v6 can play it either on cartridge or showdown. It's already been established that no mod will be implemented other than 6v6 and timer. Can we move on instead? Tiering action will be done soon and posting about it won't make the process faster. I'd rather talk about the current and future metagame prospects.

Speaking of that, Rotom-W has been feeling very good for me right now with Sitrus Berry. This tier is full of powerful physical attackers that are scared of Will-o-Wisp, the pivoting is nice with Levitate, and the limited distribution of Toxic is nice. I added it to a team because Hippowdon was a threat and honestly it puts in a lot of work. Sitrus helps a lot with SD Scale Shot Garchomp. Grass-types haven't been very common so not a lot scares it out. The Rotom-W versus Excadrill MU feels very classic.

I was expecting Excadrill to perform better but it hasn't impressed me so far, likely because there's not that many Clefables around due to Mega Gengar and Sneasler. It really misses Air Balloon, as Garchomp OHKOes through Shuca after SD.

Kingambit is a beast in SV OU due to Tera and in Natdex because of Pursuit and Knock Off. In this meta, it gets neither but still sweeps anyway. Priority is very important in this tier. I've been seeing Black Glasses a lot but I wonder if Chople Berry is better for the occasional fast Body Press Corviknight and opposing Kingambit Low Kick. I wonder what will end up being the optimal spread.

Adamant Dragonite feels terrible, as a lot in this tier outspeeds it at +1 and, without HDB and Tera, it can't easily get to +2. Haven't tested Jolly yet so I'm not sure if it misses out on important KO thresholds. It's a great mon regardless and wins a lot of games from preview.

Lucario is busted. It's very tough to teambuild for it because the Fighting types and Steel types in this tier are crazy important, and there's no Choice Specs to break physical walls, but you can get away with a sloppy team anyway. It's better against fatter structures so I'd say the current meta favors other megas, however you really need something to kill it that can live +2 Bullet Punch, otherwise you're in for a tough time.
 
Back
Top