the assumption is that gen 10 is the next generation of competitive pokemon, given that the pokemon company has said that it is not.
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Announcement National Dex and Pokémon Champions Discussion Thread
- Thread starter bumboclaat
- Start date
We're not doing assumptions, we are saying to wait. You're doing assumptions.
Just like I didn't code Mega Evolution to happen before switches before Pokémon Champions was released, even though there were videos showing that it did.
Personally, I think mons should be added as we know their abilities (in the case of the megas) and pp nerfs should be carried over
Although definitely have an archived version of gen 9 natdex because natdex OU is in a sense always reflecting the current gen and mechanical updates, just with all the missing content and mons, and in a sense, natdex tiers are essentially a time capsule in that regard is how I see it.
Also we don't know that gen 10 will be the next gen of comp, because for all we know, it could have a comp meta completely separate and different from vgc and what we know as a whole, or nothing at all, since that is the current implication that champions is presenting
Although definitely have an archived version of gen 9 natdex because natdex OU is in a sense always reflecting the current gen and mechanical updates, just with all the missing content and mons, and in a sense, natdex tiers are essentially a time capsule in that regard is how I see it.
Also we don't know that gen 10 will be the next gen of comp, because for all we know, it could have a comp meta completely separate and different from vgc and what we know as a whole, or nothing at all, since that is the current implication that champions is presenting
Uh,if we don't get the megas from champions now,Gen 10 isn't having mega evolution(I assume),so whats the plan for if that happens?
The Logic is the assumption(at least from what ive seen) that we only really give items that have existed in a prior game,if champions doesn't count as one,then gen 10 might not either.
The Logic is the assumption(at least from what ive seen) that we only really give items that have existed in a prior game,if champions doesn't count as one,then gen 10 might not either.
I've only ever played ND DOU, never a singles ND tier, and only briefly, so keep that in mind when i make this post. But as someone who is largely an outsider, i see 2 options that are best for me:
A. Implement the new megas, move changes (e.g. accuracy, base power, secondary effects) and hold on most of the mechanics for now (e.g. with encore, it's still unclear what the intended mechanics are; same with fake out),
B. follow whatever happened with PLA when that game came out. While the mechanical differences in champions arent as drastic as they are in PLA, i believe it was the first time a situation like this occurred.
And while i'm sure this topic has alreayd been discussed to death: is galarian slowbro able to mega evolve currently? And if so, why? While i still disagree with the reasoning that was used when it was originally decided to allow gbro to mega, we now have official consistent mechanics in-game that clarify whether that should be the case (no).
As a final addon, i think a tier or format changing drastically when new games and pokemon are released is quite inevitable. It's happened every single gen. Right now we have clear mechanics and pokemon that follow the rest of the main series in terms of every pokemon has abilities, it's turn-based that doesn't completely throw out most of the previous mechanics like PLA did, etc., and as of right now, with limited interaction with natdex, i think it's in line with the "spirit" of nat dex to implement at the very least the new megas.
A. Implement the new megas, move changes (e.g. accuracy, base power, secondary effects) and hold on most of the mechanics for now (e.g. with encore, it's still unclear what the intended mechanics are; same with fake out),
B. follow whatever happened with PLA when that game came out. While the mechanical differences in champions arent as drastic as they are in PLA, i believe it was the first time a situation like this occurred.
And while i'm sure this topic has alreayd been discussed to death: is galarian slowbro able to mega evolve currently? And if so, why? While i still disagree with the reasoning that was used when it was originally decided to allow gbro to mega, we now have official consistent mechanics in-game that clarify whether that should be the case (no).
As a final addon, i think a tier or format changing drastically when new games and pokemon are released is quite inevitable. It's happened every single gen. Right now we have clear mechanics and pokemon that follow the rest of the main series in terms of every pokemon has abilities, it's turn-based that doesn't completely throw out most of the previous mechanics like PLA did, etc., and as of right now, with limited interaction with natdex, i think it's in line with the "spirit" of nat dex to implement at the very least the new megas.
Another thing i forgot to add: would it not be possible to "implement champions", trial it for a period of time that would allow the majority of the players to try it out, and decide with the nes information? I always think practical tests are far more valuable than things like discussion threads. That is not to say i don't think discussion threads are good (they're really useful), but in some cases actually testing things out is more valuable.
Yes let's wait till 2027 to implement changes that exist as of April 8, 2026, because we LOVE not having Pokémon and Updated game mechanics in the very category of tiers whose goal it is to play every Pokémon with updated Mechanics. It is the single worst Idea that has been written down in this discussion.
The game is here, the mechanics are here, but also the absolute SHEER fear of those in power to backtrack on anything is here and is stopping any form of progress. ANY sane TLs would have had Champions ND ladder debut at the SAME time as Champions OU and BSS and VGC. If you get something wrong, fix it. Mega sol wasn't coded correctly at first, it was fixed. That's IT. Champions Tiers will be unlike ANYTHING we've ever had before, and applying old and outdated tiering tendencies on it is a terrible thing. And waiting 8 months minimum, 10 months(Pokémon Day) if we're very lucky, and 18~ months in the most likely scenario (a Pre-Christmas release like SV and its DLCs) is exactly the type of things that will Destroy Natdex more than having 3 ladders for ND OU. Like how does this Idea even cross someone's mind and have them convinced it's sane enough to write in a discussion with the Intro saying Trolling and shitposting will be reprimanded. I'm baffled and almost offended I've taken a question seriously when such an absurdity is getting praised in the discussion.
On the Very questionable points you made, I have things to say as well
That's never how Natdex worked.
Did you not assume Poltergeist worked on mega stones?
Did you wait for Smeargle and Revival Blessing to exist simultaneously to see if it was sketchable?
Natdex is coded with what we have available at the moment. Waiting for the year of TWO THOUSAND AND TWENTY SEVEN?
So you just took what you had, and you applied it to a different game where it was not able o be re-created, huh that's a cool thing to do, you didn't wait till "when we get there" and you just implemented it. That's quite an awesome thing to do, actually
Just like when Galarian Slowbro couldn't Mega Evolve cause while no change had been made in SS to Mega Evolution Mechanics but hey we couldn't check cause there were no Mega evolution mechanics so we just made it not mega evolve and we actually just waited for Slowbro G to be in a game with mega evolution 6 years later, RIght? that's what you did right? you waited till "when we get there"?
please just make Champions ND Ladder ASAP on everyone's soul WE don't care about SS ND OU ladder
I think you clearly don't understand the difference between abstaining from making assumptions and actively making assumptions.
I'm not going to respond further if you continue to show that you are being intentionally mentally dense due to your personal agenda.
No, we didn't. We saw that Poltergeist worked on all items in SS, so the implementation was "works if the opponent has an item". Working on Mega Stones was just a natural consequence of SS's implementation "works if the opponent has an item".
We didn't change any mechanics. The check in SM was: "if the Pokédex number corresponds to the Mega Stone, it can Mega Evolve". By keeping the same mechanics—without changing or assuming anything—Galarian Slowbro being able to Mega Evolve was simply a consequence of Gen 7's code.
I'm not going to respond further if you continue to show that you are being intentionally mentally dense due to your personal agenda.
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Your solution to a whole unprecedented Situation is 'yeah just do like we did before and don't implement anything on the "Play everything currently existing" tier till 8 to 18 months' and you are calling me mentally Dense?
Sorry if you hadn't noticed yet but Pokémon has changed. Showdown is a battle simulator not a mainline game simulator and it's time to Update the tiering policies if you want it to stay a battle simulator. Mainline used to go along with Pokémon competitive battles but it doesn't anymore, it has been confirmed. It's not an advertisement video it's official statements and you know what? If they end up backtracking so will showdown it's not prohibited by all rules of moral and logic. Currrently, the Natdex tier should have every pokémon with updated mechanics but no, we made a policy 6 years ago when games such as champions didn't exist so we shouldn't actually so anything but wait till Next YEAR. Yeah I mean that totally makes sense right?
As I've said before, I'm not a high level player. But this fails to address the main point that they made of excluding Pokemon from the national dex format which is supposed to include every Pokemon. I have yet to see a good reason why we need to exclude the new megas (new mechanics are a different conversation) besides it being an inconvenience for tournament players; in that case, we can wait until the current NDWC is finished. After that though? That's the perfect time to implement them. If you have any other reasons for excluding besides sudden adjustments, feel free to say them, because this completely goes against the spirit of the tier otherwise. I would prefer a separate ladder to be implemented ASAP, but since there is evidently a huge schism between the leaders/high level players and the rest of us, that isn't going to happen as Dhelmise already said.
I don't think we'll ever agree because to be blunt I genuinely just don't think Smogon is 'meeting the moment' to begin with, and see this as a bit tone deaf.
To put it bluntly: VGC is eating Smogon Singles alive and get with the fucking program and play ball or it will continue its slow decline. We have the stats and there has been a considerable decline of players compared to back in the Gen 7 days, VGC gets more polished and Champions is going to put even more eyes and focus on VGC.
WolfeyVGC singlehandedly had about equal concurrent viewers streaming Pokemon Champions PokeBall tier matches last night to Pokemon Showdown's active user count. On one platform (Youtube)
This general decline was one of the best argument pieces in this thread, with this post, here, that I very much agree with:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...usage-based-lower-tiers.3762325/post-10925102
and others like this,
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...usage-based-lower-tiers.3762325/post-10896450
Essentially, I and many others have been pocketwatching and yes, Smogon tiers in general have been on a decline. Gen 7 OU had more games *the month after Sword & Shield dropped* than Scarlet & Violet OU had last month.
You can poke holes into these numbers. I'm no data scientist, there are more tiers every year, National Dex was only in its beta. Scarlet & Violet OU last month actually had one of its best months in years in terms of activity, and you can say XYZ factors as to why.
But none of any growth bump is permanent, and Scarlet & Violet started the generation with if I recall peak battle numbers of any generation, month, etc. ever. In 19 days there were over 2.5m games of Scarlet & Violet OU. In the December month there were over 3.4m battles.
Again, you can poke holes in these numbers if you like, but the story of the SV generation from the macro scale of Smogon has been pretty sizable decline despite an amazing start, and I believe that one of those factors is that VGC simply was more polished and had more attention economy than in previous generations.
If this site doesn't full-embrace Champions, I think it will lose the attention economy battle even harder. This refusal to play ball is so baffling.
Smogon is no longer in the driver's seat of what "competitive Pokemon" is, TPC and VGC are. If VGC is going to be played on Champions, then yes, Champions is the current competitive mainline Pokemon game, and that is what most casual or less informed players will expect, and frankly, what a lot of existing informed players will want is to try the new things over time also!
I'm not saying that the goal needs to be beating VGC to be clear, or even 'competing', but that we are objectively losing players over time while VGC is growing. Those might not be the same players, there are many factors etc., but Pokemon in general is growing while our metagames are declining, and I do not think 'business as usual' is valid anymore.
Like this is the kind of so eyerolly thing. It's so obtuse. We know that Mega Slowbro doesn't Mega Evolve from Galarian Slowbro. Because Champions is that game. That is the game. You can't just plug your ears and pretend Champions is just a quirky spinoff and not the future of not only likely competitive Pokemon, but this battle system as a whole, and people already thought this shit was weird before we now have confirmation this isn't how it works.
No one who isn't super deep into policy is going to think "Wow, it makes sense, Champions is a spinoff so obviously it doesn't matter!" when that game is the presenting competitive Pokemon experience.
Now, this post has been mostly about Smogon as a whole, but I will again say, I am not saying National Dex absolutely needs to hop onto the train immediately,
but also making Champions OU a secondary ladder is the compromise. Because we all should in this conversation intuitively understand that Champions as a live service game will be getting updates post-Gen 10, if Gen 10 even uses the same battle mechanics, we can then have Gen 10 NatDex as the spiritual successor. In this case, Gen 9 NatDex being separate also allows tournaments to continue as expected.
But I'm not going to pretend we do not know that Champions is the flagship competitive Pokemon experience now and until the future. And I'm not going to say it's valid or makes any sense from a policy angle to plug our ears and wait until Gen 10. We are at a point of fighting decline in Smogon, not growth or maintaining, and not putting in more resources to update to Champions is going to only create more decline over time.
And I think we should all agree that's bad, and that we want the NationalDex/Generally Smogon scene to grown and not decline, and that these factors absolutely should play into decisions on this kind of thing, like it or not. I do not think NatDex needs to right this second becoming Champions NatDex, but we need to embrace it at some point, and that some point needs to be pretty soon.
https://www.videogameschronicle.com/features/pokemon-champions-director-masaaki-hoshino/
"Previously, we’ve changed titles, as time went on, but going forward, we’re going to be using Pokémon Champions as the game that we carry into the future for the VGC".
I don't think it gets more explicit than that. Based on this interview, Champions is the new home of competitive Pokemon in an official capacity.
The back half of this thread has been immensely frustrating to read. Please stop being unecessarily hostile Kinak and Ant. The PS! devs volunteer a ton of their time to help facilitate and maintain the metagames we all enjoy and that is very much appreciated. Ditto taking time out of their weekend to offer their perspective and let us know what is and isn't possible.
Please remember this is a discussion thread not an argument. I've spent a lot of my day writing a post detailing my thoughts on the matter, but have run out of brain capacity to finish it today. Lets get back on track and to a point where I'm not wondering if every other post should be deleted
Please remember this is a discussion thread not an argument. I've spent a lot of my day writing a post detailing my thoughts on the matter, but have run out of brain capacity to finish it today. Lets get back on track and to a point where I'm not wondering if every other post should be deleted
Most if not all of the things I talked about are pertaining to what we should or shouldn't do.
I linked in that post my original post in the thread which I wrote about how this could be straining on the coding volunteers and website, and how that would be rough:
I liked Hydra's post about the issues with ladder.
I do respect the volunteer work and I feel you are saying this in a way that might frame me as attacking, when I'm not. I am considering the developer and volunteer side at every step of the way, nor do I agree with "just add it in now".
They called me mentally dense, didn't address the main point of the post (Waiting 8-18 months is the worst Idea to have emerged from an allegedly functioning human brain) but Noooo they got colors under their username, haha, it doesn't matter if they want to apply outdated policies for a whole new type of problem, it doesn't matter if that goes against the very function of this category of tiers, it doesn't matter if they personally attack someone, they got fancy little badges and not me. Also what is the point of this first sentence? Do you think it's been satisfying to have Champions OU up for like 3 days and not the shadow of a ND Champions because of 2020 policy? When I didn't have the necessity to use stronger language, I didn't, but I'm not gonna say "I just want the TLs to take their time and think thoroughly, to prioritize the tours over the vast majority of the players, to stick to Tiering Policy dating back years, to possibly wait a Dozen months while the issue they're facing is brand new and unlike anything they've seen before!"
You’re arguing in bad faith that we make assumptions and implement National Dex mechanics however we feel like. Calling you "intentionally mentally dense", I meant that you are being deliberately stubborn and headstrong, and ignoring how we actually implement things in NatDex to push for your own agenda.
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Locking this for a bit
It has been an hour so I'm unlocking this and please keep things civil. It is fine to be passionate, but remember there is a person on the other side of the screen.
I meant to post this a bit ago, but was forced to actually proofread my post because it was locked and threw out most of it. Essentially, i think a lot of this prior discussion and overal nastiness can be avoided with a little bit less bureaucracy and a little bit more intuitivity? Overall, just a little bit less rigidity in the rules. This is not to say anything should be rushed into, but i don't think ND or smogon should be afraid of trying things out in something like a trial period. I don't know how opposed dhelmise would be to this, but i'd once again like to suggest some sort of trial ladder/trial tournament/really anything as a testing ground.
(I also just think not adding most of the new megas kind of defeats the point of being Natdex, but that's really just a vibe sort of thing)
(I also just think not adding most of the new megas kind of defeats the point of being Natdex, but that's really just a vibe sort of thing)
Now for a post that doesn't suggest just overhauling the decision making process for a tier which i don't play a lot:
For better or for worse, it's clear that going forward, TPC/TPCi intends to have champions be the modern standard for competitive pokemon, despite the lack of 6v6 singles. VGC is largely moving to that platform, with only a few regionals and TPC region nationals remaining in SV. They have also officially stated that there is no intent to ever leave champions behind again. Why would smogon, 6v6 singles, or ND not? I fully understand that it will take a lot of time and effort to get the champions system implemented for every single pokemon, but (correct me if i'm wrong) is not what this is about, rather asking the question "are we going to implement champions in the first place, ever?".
There is zero garuantee (i'll even go out and say that it's unlikely) that the next few generations will feature the new mega pokemon. That means that if champions is deemed to be not good enough to draw conclusions/pokemon from, there's a pretty high chance most of these megas won't be available for years. The whole point of natdex being that every single pokemon is legal in some tier (doesn't matter if that's AG or OU), it seems logical to me that that's not something anyone wants.
This is what seems 'best' to me:
- Implement all the new megas for which we know every detail (mainly just the ability at this point)
- Use whatever existing system is already in place to decide how movesets will go on from now, while treating champions as just the new generation (meaning right now it's treated as gen 10, when gen 10 releases it'll be treated as gen 11, etc.)
- Win???
For better or for worse, it's clear that going forward, TPC/TPCi intends to have champions be the modern standard for competitive pokemon, despite the lack of 6v6 singles. VGC is largely moving to that platform, with only a few regionals and TPC region nationals remaining in SV. They have also officially stated that there is no intent to ever leave champions behind again. Why would smogon, 6v6 singles, or ND not? I fully understand that it will take a lot of time and effort to get the champions system implemented for every single pokemon, but (correct me if i'm wrong) is not what this is about, rather asking the question "are we going to implement champions in the first place, ever?".
There is zero garuantee (i'll even go out and say that it's unlikely) that the next few generations will feature the new mega pokemon. That means that if champions is deemed to be not good enough to draw conclusions/pokemon from, there's a pretty high chance most of these megas won't be available for years. The whole point of natdex being that every single pokemon is legal in some tier (doesn't matter if that's AG or OU), it seems logical to me that that's not something anyone wants.
This is what seems 'best' to me:
- Implement all the new megas for which we know every detail (mainly just the ability at this point)
- Use whatever existing system is already in place to decide how movesets will go on from now, while treating champions as just the new generation (meaning right now it's treated as gen 10, when gen 10 releases it'll be treated as gen 11, etc.)
- Win???
Time to throw my single cent into this. I definitely agree with implementing the new megas in Champions into current natdex since we know how they work mechanically and natdex is supposed to be a format where all Pokemon that are playable in a standard format like VGC are playable on Showdown. However, we should hold off on creating a new ladder or implementing any of the new mechanical changes in Champions until they fix all the jank and are made clear how everything works.
Champions should be implemented into Showdown in some way though as part of Showdown's charm is how easy it is to get into and play competitive Pokemon. And with the predatory monetization that Champions has, we may as well capitalize on being accessible to draw in new players. As for how to implement Champions, the game will most certainly replace VGC in future games so a pure Champions meta would just replace the current VGC tiers. For natdex, I think the mechanical changes made in Champions are drastic enough to warrant making a new tier, in which case SV natdex would be preserved like SS natdex. Plus the devs already confirmed that there will be balance patches. Depending on how frequent and volatile the balance changes are, it might be worth making a separate tier.
Champions should be implemented into Showdown in some way though as part of Showdown's charm is how easy it is to get into and play competitive Pokemon. And with the predatory monetization that Champions has, we may as well capitalize on being accessible to draw in new players. As for how to implement Champions, the game will most certainly replace VGC in future games so a pure Champions meta would just replace the current VGC tiers. For natdex, I think the mechanical changes made in Champions are drastic enough to warrant making a new tier, in which case SV natdex would be preserved like SS natdex. Plus the devs already confirmed that there will be balance patches. Depending on how frequent and volatile the balance changes are, it might be worth making a separate tier.
I’m not seeing any reason for there to be any hesitation in adding a new Champions National Dex tier. Champions isn’t dlc, it isn’t a spin off either. (Even if it was, we have the Let’s Go ladder, so not really proving much). There have been changes in the core mechanics, buffs and debuffs to moves, Pokémon, and such. That’s the exact thing that happens per generation on a mainline game. If National Dex was made for dexit, then why should we leave out other Pokémon forms. If it’s the fact that we don’t know ever ability, I get it, but you could, you know, ban those stones? If someone wants to use Mega Abomasnow and Acrozolt together, they get on showdown and load up Natdex. Why shouldn’t I be able to do the same thing with Mega Froslass & Acrozolt? You can’t call yourself a non dexit tier and still do exactly that.
Treating it like a new generation and updating it as we get more info is the best way to go imo. That way, Gen 9 players get to stick with what they want, and people who want to use all of the Pokémon + new megas can play Champs NatDex. It won’t affect the other two tiers. It won’t make anyone upset if they can just decide not to play it. Give the people what they want.
Treating it like a new generation and updating it as we get more info is the best way to go imo. That way, Gen 9 players get to stick with what they want, and people who want to use all of the Pokémon + new megas can play Champs NatDex. It won’t affect the other two tiers. It won’t make anyone upset if they can just decide not to play it. Give the people what they want.
I think calling people names or insulting people based off mental capacity is boring, yucky, and fundamentally against the spirit of Pokemon. Then a number of y'all try to deflect or justify being mean, some of y'all appear to be smogon leadership. That sucks. We can form arguments and share ideas but why be ableist or cruel? if you're hosting a community, especially one welcoming to children, you have an obligation to be a role model and show kindness. If a discussion around gaming gets you so heated it's hard to control your words please take a breather, listen to some music, or anything else. I understand this comment may be removed for being non topical but nothing has made me lose interest in wanting to help a format that I've found to enjoy than this. :( please be kind to one another.
I would argue that the fact that the vast majority of people want to play with the new Megas in NDOU (as shown by the poll in NDOU room where 90% of people voted “yeace”) is already a sufficient argument for adding the new megas to NDOU.
Fact of the matter is that the tiers exist for people to play and have fun with, and if people want to play and have fun with the new megas, then we should let them. If we don’t do that then we simply aren’t serving the players well.
I personally have been playing NDOU since the middle of 2024 and am bored of the NDOU metagame mostly remaining the same. I am ready to see changes with new mons added and I believe most people would agree with me on this front (as shown by the poll in NDOU room)
I could go on about why the identity of natdex means that the new mons should be added yada yada but other people have made that argument already so I shan’t bother.
Regarding the new mechanics such as the PP nerf or changes to move, I do also think that they should be implemented for reasons other people stated above, but I honestly do not care much either way, and I believe most people would agree that they just want to play with the new megas.
Agreed.