Metagame Next Steps

[tazz]

Hey everyone.

With LCCL over, we thought we'd start some discussion in a separate thread on possible next suspects and the state of the meta.

With Shellder gone, we've seen complaints about a few Pokemon - but none have risen to the level that would demand a suspect. Is this because the meta is still developing, or is there another reason? Should any Pokemon be particularly on our radar?

Another thing we'd like to gauge opinions on is Tera Blast. Should we address it at all? If so, what is the proper timing/best way to do so?

Feel free to post about any of these topics.

 

[Incognition]

With Shellder gone, we've seen complaints about a few Pokemon - but none have risen to the level that would demand a suspect. Is this because the meta is still developing, or is there another reason? Should any Pokemon be particularly on our radar?
I feel the biggest threats in the meta right now are Elekid and Wingull (maybe Vullaby, but that has always been an S+ mon in my opinion). My personal perspective is although these Pokemon are strong, they're not entirely broken where a suspect test is needed (e.g. We have Mudbray/Trapinch/Chinchou/Glimmet/Tink as a few possible answers to these threats, not to mention Wingull is weak to rocks). This is also not considering the potential tera types which some Pokemon can use.

I would be curious to see what other Pokemon people may have raised a concern about - I don't think the meta has really developed significantly since the Shellder ban, but I may be wrong.

Another thing we'd like to gauge opinions on is Tera Blast. Should we address it at all? If so, what is the proper timing/best way to do so?
I think the main Pokemon in the current meta who has benefitted from TB is Nasty Plot + TB Ground Vullaby, especially with Endure to guarantee the +2 speed. Elekid is another potential Pokemon who can be great with Tera Psychic, but I don't think it's as significant compared to SV OU, for example, but I would be curious to see what other people think.

If tera blast was to be removed from SV LC, I think we should see how the meta adapts first, before reintroducing previously banned Pokemon (e.g. Torchic, H Voltorb, etc)

I'll adjust my comment accordingly based on the general consensus of the community as I may have missed a lot of points.

 

[Hacker]

i think a tera blast ban would be a good direction for the tier for balancing reasons. its frankly not the best strategy right now anyways because of how needed stuff like defensive teras are right now for stuff like hisuian growlithe, but it had a huge impact on a lot of previous tiering. i think a LOT more than a tera blast ban should be aimed for if we want a enjoyable metagame with way more variety than the one we have right now. of course take everything i say with a grain of salt as i am not very good at this meta nor have i enjoyed current gen lc for quite a while which is why i stepped away from tl/council anyways

immediate positives with tera blast. these shouldn't really be even debatable
:pmd/vullaby: vull cant even be argued to be broken without groundblast. the main reason fast tink became the standard is so it can have the faster encore if you can't twave it. it can try np roost defensive tera but its just inevitably walled by something then. it cant have recovery and actually threaten full teams. and without roost the longevity is just bad without being able to immediately ko most things
:pmd/voltorb-hisui: :pmd/torchic: :pmd/flittle: i dont have to explain why tera blast was the driving force behind hisutorb torchic and flitltes ban. i dont think these guys will be very good in a meta without it but every mon is valuable in the scope of lc tiering w/ dexit imo
:pmd/snivy: i initially had snivy in the section below but I just realized this guy doesnt even get dragon pulse LOL. legit no coverage other than grass moves its deadass just walled by foongus and vullaby and any tera resist. additional ground resists are always nice as well
:pmd/aipom: i think this would be a nice oppurtunity to try aipom. groundblast was probably good on it to naturally break past its easy counters. he might as well get his due process and multi hit moves to hit vullaby are cool

i think these guys should be freed without tera blast
:pmd/diglett: i hate trapping with every bit of passion in my body, but I kinda just think without tera blast diglett is a hell less of an effective trapper than gothita. without tera blast it loses its natural way to nuke stuff like foo and toedscool. if its fine in swsh its probably fine here without tera blast i take it all back just saw subsd steel dig talks for foongus LMAO
:pmd/magby: I still think magby contributed a lot more postively to the tier than negatively. this is contentious but I think the vote would have been ridiculously close on magby without tera blast. to me this thing only really got banned because of drum while life orb still being a great (better) set on it. without tera blast it loses its natural way to just instantly beat any of its counters and belly drum gets insanely nerfed. its just a fast mon that can 2hko the meta if you click right where its a lot comparable to like alolan diglett and wingull right now. its better than them because fire is a really good offensive typing, but i dont quite think to the banworthy level
:pmd/shellder: shellder contributed a lot positive to the metagame imo by keeping stuff like hisu growlithe and snowshrew fair. it still could do a lot of cancer stuff other than use tera blast, but without it stuff like mudbray will just completely shut it down with tera and we get a nice bonus of a fire resist. i think its a lot more reasonable to prep for shellder consistently while having having to only really worry about ghost and rock shellder.

i also think defensive porygon would bring a lot of good to the current meta. but while typing it out and actually thinking about it more i think offensive is probably too ridiculous to allow. maybe ban trapinch if offensive pory is too good and see if its still too good after if this path is taken. this said, i think its worth a discussion or at least seeing if a metagame centralized around it could be more fun. we're currently playing one centralized around mienfoo anyways.

ban this guy anyways
:pmd/gothita: gothita is legitimately nothing other than a cancer to the metagame. it turns games into a bunch of coinflips on if you click the right button with foo you gain a ridiculous amount of progress. me vs greedy is highlighting typical gothita doing this where I played an early coinflip on what greedys mienfoo would do, got it wrong, and instantly lost. the metagame literally benefits negatively from this thing. diglett trapping feels a lot more natural to be able to play around with stuff like midgrounding mienfoo being an actual good option. not even to mention the bullshit cheese sets that can instantly win but i always felt like scarf was so much more of a nuisance anyways

cheers all. i think a tera blast ban and a decent amount of retiering could do the tier a lot of good to make the tier more fun. i think as it stands right now its probably properly competitively balanced, but the gameplay this tier in its current state has to offer is so boring and unenjoyable to me. my support for retiering purely comes from thinking it would be a hell lot more of an enjoyable metagame to play while thinking there is a very real chance the tier can still be properly enjoyed from a competitive perspective

 

[turtwigmygoat]

I agree with hacker on the tera blast sentiment. While I dont think it's broken, I absolutely dont think banning it makes the tier worse. it makes it much better. Tera blast doesn't check anything that would be broken without it, it's just an annoying tool for offensive mons. Vull gets reigned in heavily, and checks such as glimm and tink become safe. trying out the previously banned mons would be fun as well, diglett and magby, aipom would be cool additions to current meta game ( we need a good fire type other than dog cmon).

 

[Colin]

I roughly agree with hacker about terablast, but I'll post my own opinion.

Terablast is not broken in the current metagame, but I really don't enjoy playing around LO pokemon + plot vull when that threat exists. Terablast has a high opportunity cost, but getting a ko is still really strong, especially if substitute was clicked first or if the terablast wasn't expected. Outside of vullaby which I think is fine for different reasons, the current speed control is very effective against terablast users making them not broken. Therefore, I think that terablast should only be suspected if the community is okay with banning something that isn't broken in the traditional sense.

I honestly don't care much about freeing pokemon; I enjoy current svlc. Terablast would allow a bunch of stuff to get retested considering how terablast enhanced almost all of them. I think only a few threats, such as torchic, should automatically be freed without terablast in the tier. Other threats, such as Voltorb, snivy, and flittle could probably be freed but are more impactful (or potentially either broken or unreliable depending on if stored power flittle can snowball or not). The rest of them are either broken or are very strong without terablast but we're pushed over the edge by it (Think groundblast and grassblast shellder getting their intended matchup).

Aipom should probably get a suspect at some point considering that it was banned due to tail slap which isn't in its move pool. Diglett should never see the light of day, dig-a isn't in fashion right now but giving it arena trap is not good, especially considering tera SD punishing trappers and the upgraded move pool since swsh.

I think suspecting terablast would represent a tiering philosophy shift, because it isn't broken right now in the traditional sense. I support that philosophy shift, but I think there should be a clear majority of players who also agree with it too before we suspect terablast.

 

[AS Saint Priest]

first of all, i think the best time to make any changes would probably be after the LCPL rather than right before it

as for tera blast, I think the points raised above make sense, Hacker sums it up very well (even though I don't think tera ground changes anything regarding Vullaby, that's more intrinsic to itself and how overpowered it is)

if banning terablast guarantees that all of these will be unbanned, that could be interesting, that said i think we should consider the positive contribution of terablast, which allows more creative players or certain mons that rely on it to finally be useful, whereas without it they would be completely overshadowed by generic options, and since even the unbanned ones are totally useless, i doubt we’ll see people using Voltorb, snivy, or even torchic, which will revert to a somewhat cheesy state and thus be useless in the end especially since, as mentioned above, it’s mostly boredom that causes this. Most bans, like Torb or the fire-types, were due to that, but also because we keep banning whatever made them weaker. I’d find it more interesting if we tried unbanning some of these one by one without banning tera blast first, which I think also gives this generation a certain charm that allows for other strategies and ideas. I believe that the existence of tera blast allows for the possibility of playing more mons rather than banning it just to bring back some that will be half-useless. although im not entirely against a ban, I agree with Colin that there really needs to be a clear majority in favour of it


(as for goth, I recall that the last vote didn’t even reach 30% in favor of a ban, I'd find it a bit ridiculous to push for a new vote less than a year after the last one.)​

 

[tazz]

I am basically in agreement with everything that hacker said. While tera blast in the current meta isn't broken, we had to ban so many of the tier's offensive threats who were broken by tera blast that the tier lacks variety and interest in the builder and in-game. Banning tera blast gives us those Pokemon back with minimal collateral damage.

We are independent from OU, but as a reference point, they are automatically freeing 2 Pokemon that were single-handedly broken by tera blast. We would at least free the same number, and could probably free 3 additional Pokemon. Because LC has a more restricted number of Pokemon with usable stats, every viable Pokemon that tera blast breaks is far more precious to us for metagame variety - so, it's very arguable that for health of the meta, the case for banning TB is even stronger in LC than OU.

As for timing, if we're going to do this it should be sooner rather than later. We need time to work things out before SCL starts - we could try this out in a mini tour if we wanted to, for instance.

 

[Zcarlett]

Prefacing this by saying I pretty much agree with what Hacker said, but I also think SV LC really sucks right now and I would be open to most forms of drastic change.

As for timing, if we're going to do this it should be sooner rather than later. We need time to work things out before SCL starts - we could try this out in a mini tour if we wanted to, for instance.

Click to collapse...

The public sentiment seems to be clearly in favor of banning Tera Blast, so I think its worth asking when and how we should go about suspecting/banning it.

I think a council vote leading to a quick-ban leads to the most straight forward timeline, where we deal with the fallout within the following couple weeks and have a meta thats stable enough for LCPL.

If it comes to a suspect, I still think playing a new potentially volatile meta in LCPL would be preferable than the same stale meta we've had for the past couple team tours with the knowledge that this meta is going to be shaken up after the tour anyways.

 

[EB]

Althought i'm not a very outstanding player, during my experience both playing and building the tier for tournaments and from what i've heard from the early meta, i think that we could consider a suspect test of Tera Blast.

Except by some rare Tera Grass Elekid sets, the main abuser of this mechanic is NP Vullaby. This pokemon is famous for being able to beat so much of the metagame with it's standard set and you have to allocate a lot of resources in order to beat it, specially if you aren't using fast Encore Tinkatink, that is the best set imo, but not every team can fit it. Even defensive tera can't save you a lot of the time due to the flinch chance of Air Slash. And considering how easy is for Vullaby to get a speed boost and start setting up it becomes really overwhelming in occasions to deal with it.

Depending on the moveset you can cheese through a lot of pokemon that were supposed to check you. For example, a Scarf Alolan-Sandshrew can potentially lose to Vullaby because of Endure triggering multiple speed boosts

Now, the unban of TB means that we can consider some unbans for pokemon that were considered broken due to TB like Diglett, Toryyy (Torchic), and Snivy, but only time will tell if those pokemon end up being or not broken anyways

A suspect test from Tera Blast is a good way to start, but i think we should consider suspect testing an element of the tier that we consider for granted a lot of the time but it might be very unhealthy: trapping.

When im speaking about trapping (or at least the obnoxious parts of it) i'm reffering mainly to Gothita since i think that it's ability to remove crucial defensive pokemon like Foongus or Mareanie limits a lot of counterplay that certain mons have like SD Mienfoo. Even tera doesn't work a lot of the time because you lose the defensive type that you needed to check certain things in the first place. Trapinch is worse due to it's low speed, lower range of pokemon that it can trap and more limited coverage, but it still can put a lot of work, specially against TTM. I think Trapinch is much healthier than Gothita because it's harder to get away with games trapping one mon with pinch unlike Gothita

Now, when these changes to the tier should happen? Probably after LCPL when there isn't an important tournament to mess up, but it would be funny if we did it in the first week of lcpl

 

[Laroxyl]

First of all, I want to say that I really like the work the council has done in this meta. Not because I’m part of it, but because I genuinely think it’s been handled well from the start.

Right now, I believe the meta is overall balanced, with the main exception being Vullaby. If we continue down the path of banning individual Pokémon, then I think Vullaby should be the next suspect and likely ban. In my opinion, Vullaby is broken even without Tera Blast. You can’t reliably check it just by spamming Chinchou or Glimmet, and if you run into trappers and lose your checks, sets like Tera Ghost + Roost become extremely difficult to handle. While the Tera Blast set is the best, the issue goes beyond that, it’s Vullaby itself that feels inherently too strong.

So yes, the meta is balanced, but is it actually versatile? As I mentioned in my post after SCL, I still think the meta is very tight, there are only a handful of truly solid team structures. That makes it balanced, but not very diverse or flexible in terms of teambuilding.

This brings me to Tera Blast. I’ve always been unsure whether banning Tera Blast would have been a better approach than banning multiple Pokémon. We’ve already banned four Pokémon (Torb-H, Torchic, Magby, Flittle), largely because of how they interacted with Tera Blast. That’s a significant number, and it suggests that the root issue might be the move itself rather than each individual Pokémon.

Banning Tera Blast could be a good way to increase both fun and versatility in building. If you look at the current teambuilder, we’re lacking special attackers, many were banned largely due to Tera Blast and Terastallization interactions. As a result, we sometimes struggle with threats like Weak Armor Vullaby (especially Nasty Plot variants) or Stamina RestTalk Mudbray, which can become overwhelming in certain matchups.

If the goal is to improve versatility, then banning Tera Blast and unbanning several Pokémon makes sense to me.

On the other hand, if we only unban something like Torb-H and Torchic, it doesn’t really solve anything, it just suggests those Pokémon were broken on their own, not because of Tera Blast.

Here are my thoughts on the currently banned Pokémon:

I’m unsure. Its coverage is extremely strong: Knock Off, Fighting coverage, Fire coverage for Steels. If it’s unbanned alongside Diglett and Porygon, I could see it being manageable, but on its own I’m not convinced it wouldn’t be too strong.

I still think it’s broken, especially without Porygon in the tier. If Porygon is also unbanned, Diglett becomes more manageable and could help balance things out.

Without Tera Blast, it’s essentially useless. It could be unbanned, but it likely wouldn’t see any meaningful usage, so it doesn’t contribute much to meta development.

As Greedy mentioned, unbanning it isn’t a bad idea. On its own it could be annoying, but if paired with other unbans like Diglett and Aipom, it might actually help stabilize the meta.

If Diglett, Aipom, and Porygon are also unbanned, it could be fine. Otherwise, I still think it’s too strong both its physical and special sets are very threatening.

Shellder should still be banned, tera rock would probably be still annoying.

I believe this would still be broken, even without Tera Blast. Sub + Leaf Storm + Glare + Tera Steel is still too strong, so I wouldn’t unban it.

This would almost certainly be unbanned, but it likely wouldn’t have any real impact. Maybe some niche SD sets, but overall it’s not very relevant.

This should definitely be unbanned. It would be healthy for the meta, we really need a fast special attacker that can pressure Vullaby effectively.

If we unban enough Pokémon that can naturally keep it in check, then it might not be broken anymore and could avoid being banned or suspected.

---

The main issue with banning Tera Blast and unbanning multiple Pokémon is uncertainty, we can’t be 100% sure that all of them will be balanced in the new environment. That makes this approach riskier than simply banning Vullaby and keeping Tera Blast.

However, banning Vullaby also carries risk. It’s historically been a central pillar of LC, and we’ve already seen in SS that removing it made the meta worse, leading to it being unbanned later. This is SV, so things are different, but Vullaby’s impact is always something to consider carefully.

If we do go down the Tera Blast route, it should definitely happen before LCPL and as soon as possible. We would need time to properly test the unbanned Pokémon and let the meta develop.

---

Overall, I’m fine with both approaches:

• banning Tera Blast and unbanning several Pokémon, or
• keeping things as they are and banning Vullaby

That said, I slightly prefer the Tera Blast route, since it has more potential to increase versatility in teambuilding.

 

[PolloAriosto]

I'll preface this by saying that Tera Blast is not currently broken in the SV LC metagame. It is pretty clear that this would be a "bored mainer" suspect test, something to shake things up because you (the reader) find the current state of the tier stale and unenjoyable (despite there being a ban not that long ago, although it was one whose consequences were not too impactful, but for more stabilization (but now we want more destabilization?)).

To be totally honest, from a balance standpoint, I wouldn't touch the tier for a good while. There are a few things I would take action on, but I am aware it wouldn't be terribly popular or it simply cannot be done (Terastalization, Mienfoo, Sleep, Gothita/Trapping).

I personally don't love how the topic started to be discussed more because of what happened to OU and the other lower tiers, as it doesn't feel very genuine.

Having said all of that, to be coherent with my personal tiering modus operandi, I agree with having a suspect test, despite my intention of voting Do Not Ban if I get reqs. I don't think there's any way to prove that Tera Blast is broken, especially without bringing up the big T subject.
Bringing up Pokémon banned because they used it is not really a strong point when you show how many other are no where close to viable despite access to the same move, it was clearly a combination of stats, abilities, typing and movepool which banished them. And to add to this, it seems like the majority doesn't want Tera Blast to be banned because they want it to actually be banned, but because it would "justify" (not really imo) bringing back Pokemon. Meh.

The test should happen pretty quickly in any case, that's the only way people actually contribute/give an opinion; the tiering leaders should already have their minds made up (on whether it happens or not, not on what they'd vote).

 

[abra xdd]

I Would say Gastly deserves to be Unbanned.
With TBlast banned, Porygon and Voltorb-H will take its own place as S and A+ Mon, that control him even vs Life Orb/Scarf Sets. Gastly Without Moves to hit Dark/Steel-types, dont have a good space as an wallbreaker. Even with Tera Blast, it was hard countered by Pawniard.

Pinging Envy Laroxyl Greedy_eb tazz Hacker for personal opinions (not council).

 

[EB]

I Would say Gastly deserves to be Unbanned.
With TBlast banned, Porygon and Voltorb-H will take its own place as S and A+ Mon, that control him even vs Life Orb/Scarf Sets. Gastly Without Moves to hit Dark/Steel-types, dont have a good space as an wallbreaker. Even with Tera Blast, it was hard countered by Pawniard.

Pinging Envy Laroxyl Greedy_eb tazz Hacker for personal opinions (not council).

Click to collapse...

200 SpA 30 IVs Tera Fairy Gastly Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

Nah without Pursuit that thing is going to be completely nuts

 

[abra xdd]

200 SpA 30 IVs Tera Fairy Gastly Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

Nah without Pursuit that thing is going to be completely nuts

Click to collapse...

I understand your point, but people used to run a different set in Pawniard vs Gastly.

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Brick Break
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock

Also, how i said, Porygon and Voltorb-h leads well vs it. Saying Gastly in SV is more broken than BW/SM is smth crazy.

 

[Éric]

its frankly not the best strategy right now

Click to collapse...

I dont think it's broken

Click to collapse...

Terablast is not broken in the current metagame

Click to collapse...

tera blast in the current meta isn't broken

Click to collapse...

I believe the meta is overall balanced, with the main exception being Vullaby

Click to collapse...

This is exactly why this suspect test shouldn't be happening. Pollo summarized it pretty well:

It is pretty clear that this would be a "bored mainer" suspect test, something to shake things up because you (the reader) find the current state of the tier stale and unenjoyable

Click to collapse...

There is no actual reason to suspect test Terablast beyond "i dont like the tier". We have banned every Pokémon that used the move, nothing in the tier does besides one set on (admittedly) the second best Pokemon (NP Tera Ground Vullaby). The ban argument can't be "the move is broken" because nothing uses it.There is simply no pleasing everyone, if you personally don't like a tier, but the tier is in no state where there is one element you dislike, but rather a general thing, you simply don't play it. Lily explains it pretty well in this post too. We would just be tiering for the sake of tiering.

I want you guys to keep in mind that you don't know how things will turn out. Plenty of times we have had suspect tests where we thought things would go one way, and the result was completely different. The best example is when we were testing Vullaby in SS LC, a very echoed sentiment was that, without the bird, Mudbray would become so broken it would need to be banned. This was one of the biggest anti-ban arguments but, when Vull was indeed banned, no one used the donkey. This might happen again. It will probably happen, actually. We are proven to be terrible at predicting, so what is the point of this suspect?

Suspect testing Terablast is a decision we have discussed about, and ultimately dismissed, plenty of times in the past. Literally every single suspect test we have had, especially those with mons which always used it (think Torchic, Voltorb), we have talked about banning Terablast and decided against it. We even did a survey not long ago, where Terablast got a lot of votes, and we suspect tested Shellder instead. Doing this now would just be dismissing that, and dismissing it for no real reason because, as you guys say, it is not broken as it stands.

Another point, very much related, I would like to raise is the motivation and timing. OU just suspect tested and banned Terablast, and it shouldn't be a surprise that this would just be following their example. No more thought behind it, just boredom and monkey see monkey do. It is completely reactionary, and based on entirely external factors. As such, I think this Suspect Test should not happen at all, as it has no real, well intended motivation within the metagame, but rather is caused by external factors, envy and selfishness. Furthermore, doing it would just mean we have been wasting time testing all these Pokemon; and making the decision we have made every single time, would be negated by just the one now.

Last point is what purpose exactly does this serve? I'm gonna cover this next, but from here we have three options: unban the move and free everything, unban the move and free only the 3 mons that are useless without it, and unban it without freeing mons. Option 3 we will never do because, since nothing besides NP Vull uses the move, it can't be a justified ban, as it would fall under "nerfing a mon instead of banning it". We HAVE TO unban stuff if we do it. With Option 2 (mons listed below), you end up unbanning mons that are actually terrible without Terablast, so they will never get used. What are you doing this for again, in that case? You fill the Pokédex but not the number of viable picks, so you are, again, just nerfing a mon. We are left with Option 1, unban everything. These are mons that we banned regardless of Terablast, or mons in which the move played little part. For that reason, I think they are obviously still broken and will end up banned anyway, making us waste even more time and ending up on Option 2 anyway, which is Option 1 again, which means we are just nerfing Vullaby but with extra steps.

if we test, how do we do it

IF this move had to be suspect tested, we obviously would be unbanning stuff. There is absolutely no point in banning a move that doesn't deserve to be banned on its own. If we do this, we need to do a full reset. My personal policy is that we only would drop stuff that was actually broken because of Terablast, instead of Pokémon that used the move. This is because every mon learns this move, so if we just went by "used", every mon has used it at some point. What, in my opinion, needs to be dropped? List as follows:

OPTION 2: :flittle::torchic::voltorb-hisui: These are the main ones for me. They used Terablast in 100% of their sets, and they would be useless without it. The exception is Voltorb, which would probably be a viable pick alongside Gothita, but it is nowhere near the metagame warping force it was when it had access to Terablast.

OPTION 1: :magby::shellder: Terablast was a part of the ban reasoning, but not the entire scope. I think they would be broken regardless, but I would be down to unbanning them too and be proven wrong.

Never in a million years: :snivy::porygon::diglett::gastly: need I say why? Diglett, as hacker said, would just be more cancer. People already hate trapping so what are we doing nomming this, really? Porygon got banned when it was NERFED because it didn't have access to Triattack and RECOVER. Thing would be insanely stupid with just defensive Tera, it was already super dumb without Recover or Berry Juice. Insane that someone would be nomming this. Gastly rarely used Tera Blast. Its two best sets, Evio Wisp and Choice Scarf, used defensive Teras. Tera Blast played little to no part in its banning, so it would make no sense to unban it too. What about Snivy? The revisionism that's happening to it is insane. There are claims about it being banned primarely for the move, which are completely false. The most used set was Choice Scarf, which always used either Grass or Ghost. The Eviolite Steel set, which was the other egregious set we used, could use the move, but favored support options like Knock and Glare. There existed a Terablast Fire set, but it was never the prime suspect. Here is the proof:

Saying Terablast was a primary Snivy coverage is insane misinformation and I will not tolerate it.

These are all the reasons for this suspect NOT TO HAPPEN. I think if we did this, it would be terrible tiering and would hurt a lot more than help. If you are bored, play a different tier. We have plenty.

 

[EB]

I understand your point, but people used to run a different set in Pawniard vs Gastly.

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Brick Break
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock

Also, how i said, Porygon and Voltorb-h leads well vs it. Saying Gastly in SV is more broken than BW/SM is smth crazy.

Click to collapse...

Even then Pawniard without Pursuit isnt a reliable answer because of it's lack of recovery, and H-Voltorb Is one prediction wrong from being a victim of First Impression Trapinch. About Porygon, ok that one is a reliable check that isn't vulnerable to trapping but we have to see if it wouldn't be broken with Agility + defensive tera sets, and it's not even one of the guaranteed unbans if tera Blast gets banned

 

[tazz]

No more discussion of Gastly please, it's almost certainly not going to be revisited even if tera blast is banned.

 

[Taka]

i love using tera blast, it's genuinely something I really enjoy playing with in a lot of Tera tiers (specifically speaking from an Ubers perspective where this move is garbage). even if I wasn't particularly opposed to it in the other lower tiers, I really do dislike playing around it here. I'm not a top level LC player, but I've definitely played my fair share of SV LC, and I can easily say my least favorite part was playing around Tera Blast innovation, whether that was Vullaby, Torchic, Voltorb, or some bullshit fishing set.

Not going to go over specifics on why I feel this way, but I would love to see:

- action taken towards Tera Blast

if Tera Blast goes, then:
- would like to free:voltorb-hisui::magby::snivy:. Yes, you can free :flittle: and :torchic:, but I don't think these pokemon are really worth discussing post tera blast ban, so I'm not going to push for them. Think these mons contribute enough defensively to the tier with the speed tiers.

Please keep :shellder: out of the tier, I still think this mon is unhealthy, especially in a tier with a potential voltorb-h and snivy. the set variety is still very flexible, and I don't personally believe tera blast is a game changer for it regardless.

I don't really like :gothita: as a whole in the tier, but with how good Vullaby is and potentially freeing other strong breakers, I think that it may not be as much of a concern. that said, this one i haven't thought on apart from a baseline feeling of disdain for this mon.

don't really have thoughts on some of the other mons mentioned like :diglett: or :aipom: as I never played an sv lc with those freed, but would love to see the other changes implemented.

 

[Bub]

I support tiering action on tera blast.

I want to start out by addressing some counterarguments:

[-] "You are just bored of the meta"
If anyone is seriously considering action on tera blast, or any tiering action for that matter, because they are bored. I kindly ask you not to vote. In my opinion that's a bad faith vote and you clearly don't have the tier's best interest in mind. If you want to vote ban then formulate some sort of reasoning beyond boredom. I also want to address other people writing off others who share my opinions as "bored". It's such a non statement. Being bored isn't limited to people who want action on tera blast. You can be bored of the meta and also want no ban on tera blast. You can find the meta fun but want action on tera blast. Dismissing people as "bored" is a bad faith argument in the same way supporting a tera blast ban because you are bored is a bad faith action.

[-] "Tera Blast isn't broken on 90% of LC Mons"
This was mainly an argument made before OU banned tera blast. The idea was not every Pokemon with access to tera blast abuses it. Therefor it's the Pokemon that are the problem and not the move. We banned Voltorb Hisui, Torchic, Magby(?), Flittle, and Snivy for tera blast along with it being brought up in discussions with shellder. Before the end of the generation I could see Vullaby leaving the tier too with it's best set being tera blast ground. I also find it hard to believe that more Pokemon in the future wouldnt also be broken with tera blast. Other than tera blast, what do all of these Pokemon even have in common? Without tera blast how many of them are fine or not even viable in the meta? Tera blast clearly broke these Pokemon and not the other way around. Now that OU banned tera blast this argument holds even less weight. There are less Pokemon that abuse tera blast to a broken degree in OU than LC. Not every Pokemon OU is able to abuse tera blast, but they still banned it there.

[-] "The meta is the healthiest it has been in a long time"
I don't really agree with this fundamentally, because I think Vullaby is a massive problem. This Pokemon has many different sets that all beat Pokemon that are supposed to be counters to it. I am so tired of hearing people say "just use 16 speed tinkatink". There shouldn't only be one Pokemon that beats Vullaby. IMO that means it is just unhealthy. Even Mienfoo, supposed best Pokemon in the tier, has a handful of Pokemon that check it's variety of sets. I also don't think because a tier is healthier than it used to be means it has no room for improvement.

Next I want to talk about the Pokemon that should come back with a tera blast ban and what that means:

Voltorb Hisui
I think this Pokemon is fine without tera blast, BUT it can NOT exist alongside Gothita. Voltorb Hisui's best counter is Foongus which is already under a lot of pressure to check Mienfoo. If you bring in a knocked Foongus on a HVoltorb volt switch and your opp goes into Gothita then you either need to tera or you lose your Mienfoo switch in and your HVoltorb counter. This is no skill gameplay and is not a positive direction for the meta.

Torchic
This can obviously come back. I've seen people make arguments that it's not even worth bringing back because without tera blast it will be flipping burgers in LC RU. I understand that sentiment however it's an option for teams to use. It absolutely will not be a metagame defining threat or even be widely recognized as viable, but before Torchic took off I used a physical version on a team that saw a decent amount of success. I used SD Blitz Dig and Sub/Protect last. It was super fun, but we lost access to that due to tera blast breaking the mon.

Snivy
Coco has made some really good arguments in Discord about why Snivy should not come back. I understand where she is coming from, but I'm not convinced that it is not worth testing. The idea is it can abuse Foongus with tera steel disable and turn it into set up fodder. My argument to that is we already have Pokemon that do that. Tera steel sub SD Mienfoo, Tera steel Axew and to a lesser extent Jangmo-o, Tera steel CM Sub Gothita, Tera steel SD Acro Grookey, and really anything with access to tera and a set up move. I never played SV with Snivy, so I don't have a super strong opinion here but I think it is worth testing.

Other mons I don't have an opinion on or I feel people in the thread already addressed anything I wanted to say about them.

When should we take action if action is taken?
Optimally? Right now. I think there is enough time for people to get ready for LCPL and a major tournament will be super helpful in further developing the meta as well. I find if we push off action due to tournaments it often becomes difficult to find a time slot to follow through. I also think forcing players to adapt is good.

Thanks for reading

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

I think a tera blast ban is silly.

I've said this multiple times in the discord but I think we need a full reset to zero, unban this list and let the metagame develop again from scratch. This is a great time to do it and every decision that can come isn't going to be reactionary like a tera blast ban, 1-2 arbitrary unbans etc. We've put this meta exactly where I said it was going with each progressive ban and our only way out is a clean slate and letting it feel fresh, fun and cool again.

 

[Papillon]

I think this tier will always have tje issue of being little cup but with tera

U always either have broken guys or u ban all the brokens until u have a stale equilibrium. Tera is just so prone to causing chaos that u basically need the meta game to be this restrictive teambuilding wise.

I think that 1: if u wanna ban something, remove mu fishing bs or hax fishing bs like numel or vullaby

Edit : idc about banning tera blast, only a couple pokemon use it and its completly fine except when vull uses it, and the issue with that guy is that it beats its checks 30% of the time

U can make a point for banning goth too but i find it fine tbh

If u wanna make an interdting but bs tier i think the easiest solution is to create lc ag, send tje super brokens there, and then make lc ubers its own thing and send tje bored players there

Edit 2: to the ppl who wanna ban tera blast to bring back holtorb: do u actually think thay would make for a more fun metagame? U do realise we would just go back to mtv2 meta right? It would be fun for about 2 mins and then be even staller then what we are are playing

 

[Quinn]

We should unban webs

 

[xzeroxman]

Please remove tera blast!

I want to say, I agree with a lot of what Laroxyl said. Meta is balanced and stable but lacks variety and depth. Considering we were prohibited from action on tera blast previously I think all the efforts to make this tier good were quite commendable, but we are free now to reshape the tier into something better. Putting off the issue doesn't make sense to me and I believe tours push meta development which is exactly what we would need.

The argument I am seeing that Tera Blast is not broken on enough of the the current legal mons is exactly proof that we have been doing a good job removing the abusers up until now, The current meta is in no small part the product of repeatedly removing Pokemon whose breaking point was Tera Blast. Tera Blast created a pattern where otherwise useful Pokemon become unmanageable, removing the move and adding those mons back into the available pool will allow us more variety that we can then parse through together.

My preference would be to ban tera blast and unban some of the abusers of the move that we previously removed. I think SV has a lot of potential to be a more versatile meta if we are willing to put in the work to get there. My worry is that people will be fearful of eroding the progress that has been achieved to the point of advocating for inaction.

 

[xzeroxman]

I am going to take this one point at a time. I just want healthy discussion and Eric brought up some of the best points and I'd like to politely discuss them.

There is no actual reason to suspect test Terablast beyond "i dont like the tier"

Click to collapse...

Can you explain why you feel this is a fair take? I don't want to just shut it down, but I'm hopeful that you can see that people be legitimately engaging in good faith without this being the only reason. I personally like the tier but I don't think that it should stop me from wanting to improve it either.

We have banned every Pokémon that used the move, nothing in the tier does besides one set on (admittedly) the second best Pokemon (NP Tera Ground Vullaby). The ban argument can't be "the move is broken" because nothing uses it.

Click to collapse...

I think I tried to address this one. We banned several mons in no small part because of tera blast. It's been a commonality that has removed options from the builder. I personally feel Tera Blast adds too much coverage to certain abusers and that takes niches away from other mons. It is my personal belief that removing Tera Blast to allow for more options in would add more depth to the tier in the long run.

I want you guys to keep in mind that you don't know how things will turn out.

Click to collapse...

You are 100% right! No notes and I think this is the strongest argument, and I can't and will not fault people for feeling that inaction is best because of this, but I personally will not let it stop me. I tried to address this with my statement but I wanted to add that additional commentary.

My worry is that people will be fearful of eroding the progress that has been achieved to the point of advocating for inaction.

Click to collapse...

Suspect testing Terablast is a decision we have discussed about, and ultimately dismissed, plenty of times in the past. Literally every single suspect test we have had, especially those with mons which always used it (think Torchic, Voltorb), we have talked about banning Terablast and decided against it.

Click to collapse...

It seems to me to a reoccurring symptom which is why I personally want to address it directly. I would also personally add Shellder to this list. Pulling the below quote from the Shellder suspect test announcement as evidence.

Some of the most common counterplay to Shellder is Tera Water, however Shellder can make use of either Tera Rock Rock Blast or options like Tera Blast Grass or Ground to OHKO Tera Water or Steel users.

Click to collapse...

Another point, very much related, I would like to raise is the motivation and timing. OU just suspect tested and banned Terablast, and it shouldn't be a surprise that this would just be following their example. No more thought behind it, just boredom and monkey see monkey do. It is completely reactionary, and based on entirely external factors. As such, I think this Suspect Test should not happen at all, as it has no real, well intended motivation within the metagame, but rather is caused by external factors, envy and selfishness.

Click to collapse...

I do not feel this is a wholly fair assessment. I do not feel this is simply reactionary timing. I think people have been bringing it up previously and have been shot down as alternative options were explored. It has shown to be a problem and we keep band-aid fixing it. I think the thing that might have changed for people is that seeing others being willing to address it in another larger tier gave hope that it can be implemented successfully in LC. One of the scenario's that has and would rightly give pause for action would be if it was implemented poorly and it made everything worse by destroying the effort put in thus far. That is a risk OU is currently taking because people generally believe it will result in a better tier. I don't think it's healthy to blanket attach motivations for all people wanting it take an action. I reject the assertion that people are only asking with ill-intensions.

Last point is what purpose exactly does this serve? I'm gonna cover this next, but from here we have three options: unban the move and free everything, unban the move and free only the 3 mons that are useless without it, and unban it without freeing mons. Option 3 we will never do because, since nothing besides NP Vull uses the move, it can't be a justified ban, as it would fall under "nerfing a mon instead of banning it". We HAVE TO unban stuff if we do it.

Click to collapse...

I mostly agree with this. It would Nerf Vullaby, but it is not the ONLY mon that can use tera blast, it is just , to me, by far the worse offender. I do agree this option of banning blast and not unbanning anything does not make sense.

With Option 2 (mons listed below), you end up unbanning mons that are actually terrible without Terablast, so they will never get used. What are you doing this for again, in that case? You fill the Pokédex but not the number of viable picks, so you are, again, just nerfing a mon.

Click to collapse...

I disagree with this and want to break down why. This likely stims form a difference of opinion but to me more options is a good thing, Mons don't need to come back into the tier at the same level of busted for them to still have a role. To use your own statement, "You don't know how things will turn out." It feels like a hidden strawman argument. You can't know how viable they will be with 100% certainty so I disagree with the conclusion that it would still just be a net Vullaby nerf with no other impact. It largely would depend on what was unbanned. You go on to say that option 1 would just be Option 2 and I again think the same thing, you don't know and can't be sure of that.



I hope this comes across as intended and we can discuss it further. Thank you for contributing

 

[Éric]

Can you explain why you feel this is a fair take?

Click to collapse...

given that we tier with what we have, and that current terablast usage is all time low, it is safe to assume this is not being done because of the present but rather the past. we have banned terablast mons in the past, and i dont like the present, therefore we go back and undo the past. it is pretty much stated like that in every single pro suspect post.

I personally feel Tera Blast adds too much coverage to certain abusers and that takes niches away from other mons.

Click to collapse...

i could counter this by saying it does give a niche to other mons (wingull is the first that comes to mind), but i feel like this is not an argument for why the suspect should happen but rather why it should be banned.

I do not feel this is simply reactionary timing.

Click to collapse...

im on council. just take my word on this one lol

To use your own statement, "You don't know how things will turn out." It feels like a hidden strawman argument. You can't know how viable they will be with 100% certainty so I disagree with the conclusion that it would still just be a net Vullaby nerf with no other impact. It largely would depend on what was unbanned. You go on to say that option 1 would just be Option 2 and I again think the same thing, you don't know and can't be sure of that.

Click to collapse...

this is a fair critique. in my defense, there are levels to this. we dont know what will happen if we ban x and unban y because there is no close precedent to it, it would be purely theoretical. however, there is precedent of base torchic. a lot of it. actually 6 generations of it being unviable, and it had hidden power!! there is also the use of common sense while looking at its movepool and sets we used in the past. it gets no moves. we always used terablast because else it would only be using fire type moves. it needed the coverage, so without it, itll be useless, just like all these past years