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Tournaments ADVLTL II - Format Discussion

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maybe i will write a long post on the format but having not played last year i feel like it's less meaningful.
my gripe w uubl is that nobody likes it it's not grandstanding about it not being a real tier - i like adv draft and adv nfe. its chill
expanding the slots is not on the table at all though surely.
if you want to remove mainline formats to fit more niche ones, okay sure -> keep lc its more niche, keep pu its alrdy starving, keep nu its been overhauled w glalie ban so more play is beloved, keep ru its niche due to being two years old. kill uu or ubers if you have to.
in summary: draft should be in(largest playerbase by far and most beloved) and the tour should not be expanded, and the most killable slot is uubl. if erfder gives me a thousand dollars er I mean puts a 1k prize for uubl best record then u can kill adv uu instead tho
 
I think the format last year was largely pretty good and I would have no complaints if we ran it back for this year's tournament. If we were to include new tiers however, I would personally like to stake a claim for ADV NFE and Draft to be included.

Draft is probably one of the most hyped format across the board, with hundreds to potentially thousands of players across tours such as Emerald Open, Revival Draft Tournaments, and Volta's Vraft Voltournament to name some popular examples. While aspects such as the week wait for the tournament to start would blow, I do believe Draft would be one of the most competitive elements throughout ADVLTL, as proven and seen in the RBY equivalent alternate metagame tournament, RBYOMPL.

ADV NFE is also a fascinating tier given that it has a unique playerbase in comparison to other ADV tiers that fit a similar mold of tiers. There were roughly 31 signups for ADV NFE in the most recent NFE Olympiad, and 20 for the most recent NFE Cup as part of ZU Classic, which is promising numbers for a relatively fresh and revitalised tier. Its inclusion to ADVLTL wouldn't seem too out of player given that the tournament's premise is "to give tiers that didn't feature in ADVPL an opportunity to get some attention", and ADVLTL would be the perfect place for a tournament like ADV NFE to feature.

These tiers would likely feature if we were to expand to 12 slots, which isn't unreasonable given the size of the ADV Lower Tiers community and how ADVPL decided to feature 12 slots in its most recent tournament. Furthermore, it would help give the maximum opportunity to celebrate the community without the need to expand into 8 teams and risk potential burnout.

As reiterated at the start of this post, I think we've got a good format already and I would be satisfied with the current state of this tournament, but if change is something we're looking for, I think including Draft and NFE would be our best inclusions in my opinion. Nonetheless, I am hoping for another amazing tournament!
 
I agree, move Draft in. It is a highly established tier, has a big playerbase, and is fun as hell.

I think we should maintain UUBL. It's also fun and I think it also has a good playerbase, but I don't know, I'm biased towards it.

On a side note, I like ADV 200 and, more recently, FRLG OU a lot, but I do understand that they are super niche tiers and should not be added since the tour slots will not grow.

I cannot comment on tiers that i never played, so i really do not know if nfe should come in or wich one of the doubles format should go out.
 
This is my fault and I should have said this earlier, but ADV Draft leadership does not want ADV Draft in forum tours until the formation of the Smogon ADV Draft council this winter, and the subsequent bringing of the format to Smogon. Until such a time that they give us the green light, we are happy not hosting the format in our tours. ADVLTL is no exception to this.

Happy to entertain any other format suggestions, including expansion as ADVPL moved to 12 slots this most recent iteration.
 
Missed out on a UUBL Discord server tour due to personal reasons, but I still feel obligated to plug it here, mostly just repeating what I said in the ADVPL thread. ADV's UUBL 'tier'/list-of-mons/whatever-you-wanna-call-it is incredibly unique compared to other generations, and since ADVLTL is a tournament celebrating ADV's lower tiers, I think that uniqueness is worth highlighting. There are over 40 mons stuck in UUBL purgatory! So many that it actually forms a fun, surprisingly well-structured metagame despite not being an official tier. While a good handful of these mons get limited spotlight as niche picks in OU proper, they don't have a true 'home' due to how ADV tiering works. A tournament dedicated to celebrating ADV's lower tiers really should include ADV UUBL as a playable format, in my opinion. :heart:
 
I would like to contribute to the discussion, mainly advocating for 1v1 (as expected from a person you might know from it).

The main idea is to be a :tauros: Tauros suspect slot, which would then transition nicely into an actual Tauros suspect for the 1v1 community, since a regular tournament (such as the one hosted by Joaf here), doesn't quite illustrate the state of the metagame without Tauros, since most of the players (including myself) could just reuse teams from the (at the time) recent 1v1 Champions League I, which featured ADV 1v1. Obviously Joaf did a great job hosting the tournament, but the metagame itself was a slight bit false, at least in my opinion, compared to what an actual Tauros-less meta would look like, and if we were to push for a suspect slot here, I believe we would get the best deal.
Obviously I don't actually believe 1v1 should be discussed that seriously, but if we were to get 12 slots, I think the discussion is definitely there, and it wouldn't take away from the tournament in any way.
If anyone wants to contribute to the 1v1 argument, let me know!
 
IMG_3555.png
Me if adv 1v1 is in the tour

I’ve been playing it for a bit over 4 years now and am on the council and I think it would be a most exquisite addition. It saw a decent amount of players in the recent 1v1 cl, including a couple guys like Joaf who had no prior experience with 1v1 in general so there does seem to be some level of outside interest. Also has fine resources if anyone wanted to start playing.
 
adv 1v1 lmk

fun tier, could use suspect slot like bern had mention bc of complaints of tauros being kinda broken. players in the tier are pretty self-substantial i'd say so you don't have to worry too hard about drafting a bunch of support (though at least 1-2 that can help in other tiers will be good), as i've seen in these tours that non-singles tiers like doubles and things like 1v1/2v2 tend to be thrown out bc of the need of support in a tour that is primarily singles if ya catch my drift

if we wanted to drop a doubles slot im honestly leading towards orre because, with recent bring-ups and such it would be nice for ADV dou to get some more love, especially to help build up people's opinions on things like twave, zapdos, boom, etc.
 
As someone who dabbles in all adv low tiers and have won advpl twice, i would preffer if the format chosen would be as follows:
Ubers
Uu
Ru
Nu
Pu
Lc
Dou (bo3) or orre (bo5)
(?)

I think lowering the tournament to 8 slots would make it higher quality and therefore more competitive. It would be a great test to see if the tournaments quality is worthy of a possible custom avatar prize in the future.
I would remove uubl. Contrary to popular opinion, i think the metagame is not interesting or balanced, and the demand for it comes from a place of "theoretical enjoyment", since people tend to think fondly of the strategies that they find fun and ignore the unfun ones. Mind gaming showed us in his money tour open run that the tier is pretty centralized into styles im not fond of (builder check stalls) and i dont think the playerbase is much competitive either.
The zu removal is pretty obvious. We couldnt find 8 zu mainers to draft in advpl, and the tier reception is not good. I think personally that a tier that cant have 8 trusty mainers to be drafted in advpl shouldnt even be considered. In my personal opinion i would rather not have people wasting time in this metagame that is unfun and annoying to play (and that doesnt have any tiering action taken for some reason), but even if you disregard my opinion theres enough objective reasons not to have it on the tour.
For a similar reason i think we should stick to one doubles metagame only. Would keep the competition stronger (even tho i think doubles metagames are way better and more enjoyable then the ones above).
The last misterious slot would be filled by draft, but with the current restrictions, we have to pick other options. I think good metagames to be added there are 200 or maybe another ubers slot (lots of ou players seem to love ubers for some reason). I would vouch against nfe, 1v1, monotype and frlg, since those are quite new and frankly dont have lots of prospects of being complex and interesting. Another doubles slot could also be added, but it wouldnt be the perfect fit imo.
 
mielke said:
As someone who dabbles in all adv low tiers and have won advpl twice, i would preffer if the format chosen would be as follows:
Ubers
Uu
Ru
Nu
Pu
Lc
Dou (bo3) or orre (bo5)
(?)

I think lowering the tournament to 8 slots would make it higher quality and therefore more competitive. It would be a great test to see if the tournaments quality is worthy of a possible custom avatar prize in the future.
I would remove uubl. Contrary to popular opinion, i think the metagame is not interesting or balanced, and the demand for it comes from a place of "theoretical enjoyment", since people tend to think fondly of the strategies that they find fun and ignore the unfun ones. Mind gaming showed us in his money tour open run that the tier is pretty centralized into styles im not fond of (builder check stalls) and i dont think the playerbase is much competitive either.
The zu removal is pretty obvious. We couldnt find 8 zu mainers to draft in advpl, and the tier reception is not good. I think personally that a tier that cant have 8 trusty mainers to be drafted in advpl shouldnt even be considered. In my personal opinion i would rather not have people wasting time in this metagame that is unfun and annoying to play (and that doesnt have any tiering action taken for some reason), but even if you disregard my opinion theres enough objective reasons not to have it on the tour.
For a similar reason i think we should stick to one doubles metagame only. Would keep the competition stronger (even tho i think doubles metagames are way better and more enjoyable then the ones above).
The last misterious slot would be filled by draft, but with the current restrictions, we have to pick other options. I think good metagames to be added there are 200 or maybe another ubers slot (lots of ou players seem to love ubers for some reason). I would vouch against nfe, 1v1, monotype and frlg, since those are quite new and frankly dont have lots of prospects of being complex and interesting. Another doubles slot could also be added, but it wouldnt be the perfect fit imo.
Click to expand...
I agree with the justification laid out in this post regarding zu and uubl. i think keeping two doubles is generally good for tours tho its good to not have a doubles island guy and the player pools are meaningfully diverse between DOU and ORRE.
 
Okay
Back after using actual critical thinking skills so there'll be no tierbashing(atleast not intentional or malicious) this time

Firstly the new tiers being talked about adding

1v1 :tauros:
I think this one's like
Pretty inoffensive to me, tier seems fun and has a base. I think the idea of using this tour to actively improve it(the suspect) appeals to the spirit and idea of the tour. I wouldn't expand slot number to add this but ive got no arguments against its inclusion so ill vouch

NFE :metang:
I played like half(?) a season of this in nfeol.
Gotta say I think its severely underdeveloped for this sort of stage, I didn't really enjoy myself or the tiers like..vibe. if we are extending the slots i guess this could be added but if not id rather we didn't.
nothing personal but..no vouch.
(Not bashing, just hoping to see more development, rooting for yall next year)

Randbats:kyogre:
not my first choice for an edition but this tiers fine, i usually bash on rands but i dont hate this tier and obviously rands will always produce a playerbase. If we add slots this is a shoe-in and im not against cutting something for it with enough justification
ill vouch.

next is tiers already in ive seen people discuss cutting

ZU :mightyena:
didn't realize this was gonna be brought up, i think suggesting to drop it is pretty hilarious.
Strongly competitive and surprisingly historic low tier with a playerbase. Any struggling to draft for this on other tours I can only assume is a consequence of ignorant managers sorry not sorry.
HEAVY vouch for zu to stay untouched and forever in this tournament regardless of its advpl status.

UUBL :dragonite:
ive only played this a few times and as a manager in the first edition of the tier i was pretty hands-off with it. That said i sort of understand arguments to cut it based on my perception of its state. However this tier in my eyes embodies the point of this tournament so well id prefer to keep it.
small vouch.

Orre :metagross:
Here's the big one, the huge talking point
So im gonna apologize for my previous post by explaining the arguments for keeping this tier first
#1 the feared doubles island, to my understanding this is a worry from doubles OU players that them being the only slot lowers quality of their tests and prep. I will say from my time managing the first edition that I observed our orre and dou slots working closely together si this seems fair.
#2 cutting a tier with an established base thats been shown to show up previously.
I get this, its kinda a thing whenever a tier finds itself on a chopping block. I do think its a bit weak for an argument tho.

Now my reasons why I do want it removed.
#1 I observed that consistency was pretty hard to achieve and spending on knowledgeable orre players was scarcely rewarded. To me this suggest that the tier is inherently a bit more reliant on rng which concerns me.
#2 strain on the draft
The big orre names that do enjoy and have results in it are few and expensive. I find this unhealthy when u factor in my reason one.

My ideal format would be as follows
ADV UBERS
ADV UUBL
ADV UU
ADV RU
ADV NU
ADV PU
ADV ZU
ADV LC
ADV 1V1
ADV DOU
And this is obviously 10 slots
I hope this post comes off with the earnest love for this tournament its intended to.
 
mielke said:
As someone who dabbles in all adv low tiers and have won advpl twice, i would preffer if the format chosen would be as follows:
Ubers
Uu
Ru
Nu
Pu
Lc
Dou (bo3) or orre (bo5)
(?)

I think lowering the tournament to 8 slots would make it higher quality and therefore more competitive. It would be a great test to see if the tournaments quality is worthy of a possible custom avatar prize in the future.
I would remove uubl. Contrary to popular opinion, i think the metagame is not interesting or balanced, and the demand for it comes from a place of "theoretical enjoyment", since people tend to think fondly of the strategies that they find fun and ignore the unfun ones. Mind gaming showed us in his money tour open run that the tier is pretty centralized into styles im not fond of (builder check stalls) and i dont think the playerbase is much competitive either.
The zu removal is pretty obvious. We couldnt find 8 zu mainers to draft in advpl, and the tier reception is not good. I think personally that a tier that cant have 8 trusty mainers to be drafted in advpl shouldnt even be considered. In my personal opinion i would rather not have people wasting time in this metagame that is unfun and annoying to play (and that doesnt have any tiering action taken for some reason), but even if you disregard my opinion theres enough objective reasons not to have it on the tour.
For a similar reason i think we should stick to one doubles metagame only. Would keep the competition stronger (even tho i think doubles metagames are way better and more enjoyable then the ones above).
The last misterious slot would be filled by draft, but with the current restrictions, we have to pick other options. I think good metagames to be added there are 200 or maybe another ubers slot (lots of ou players seem to love ubers for some reason). I would vouch against nfe, 1v1, monotype and frlg, since those are quite new and frankly dont have lots of prospects of being complex and interesting. Another doubles slot could also be added, but it wouldnt be the perfect fit imo.
Click to expand...

ADV 1v1 being called new is crazy considering its older than ADV LC
 
Akeras said:
ADV 1v1 being called new is crazy considering its older than ADV LC
Click to expand...
To piggyback off this, let’s try to avoid making things up in our arguments here. It’s fine to have strong opinions, but please avoid making “objective” claims that are just straight up lies.
 
Theycallmephil said:
Any struggling to draft for this on other tours I can only assume is a consequence of ignorant managers sorry not sorry.
Click to expand...
Who are those incompetent advpl managers when compared to the great.... theycallmephil?


Akeras said:
ADV 1v1 being called new is crazy considering its older than ADV LC
Click to expand...
Well, admittedly i didnt knew this cause nobody ever talked about it in any community i'm in, so i apologize to putting the wrong label on it, my b.
However for other reasons ill keep my point up, im not too certain if the meta is well entangled with the adv community. If it is, fair to add it. Would change my mind about that one for sure.
 
To the point that people don’t like UUBL. the tier is pretty much always running tours either on the forums or on discord, the most recent smogon forum tour got around 40+ entrants, better than a lot of the adv slam opens from tiers already in this tournament and not being considered for cuts. Just because mind gaming used a bunch of stall doesnt mean thats what the tier is, in fact he didnt even win that tour if i remember correctly. Wenderz had the best record in LTL last year and used 0 stall. the UUBL pool last year was pretty strong: Sossa, Wenderz, BluesEnergy, AC7, Elian, THE_CHUNGLER had to sub out cause he was getting his ass beat, etc

if we can’t have draft, just keep the format as it was last year. though i’m unsure why we need to wait for the draft shadow council to approve it, but im assuming there’s a reason i just don’t know what it is.
 
Keep the tournament format the same as last year. If Draft isn't on the table, I think last year's format was the best one.

PD1: If you want to remove UUBL (which I don't think is necessary), add another Ubers slot instead. Personally, I'd prefer to keep UUBL.

PD2: Please don't even consider freaking 1v1. Thanks.

PD3: Orre should be either Bo5 Closed Team Sheets or Bo3 Open Team Sheets, but Bo5 is definitely the better option.

PD4: Considering the bad impression ZU left on many people during this year's ADVPL, it should stay here at least this time to give it another chance to shine and earn some goodwill for next year's ADVPL.
 
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