Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

[Magcargo]

Enjoyment: 6
Competitive: 5
Damp Rock: Suspect
Mega Swampert: Suspect
(Preferred action on Damp Rock)
Annihilape: Suspect
Mega Metagross: Suspect
Mega Raichu Y: Suspect
Hisuian Samurott: Quick Ban

Others: Garchomp, Mega Barbaracle should be quickbanned. Zard X could be suspected. Multiple other megas should be candidates for a suspect (such as Delphox, Floette, etc.). Gholdengo should be a candidate for an unban in a futue metagame.

Reasoning I believe Garchomp and Samurott should be quickbanned is that it is too difficult to prevent them from setting up hazards - and on top of that both Pokemon are unwallable threats on their own. LO Garchomp has no reliable answers barring Mega Clefable. Even outside of that, I find double hazards chomp ability to set up two layers of hazards uncontested vs nearly any non-Corv / Mega Clef team to be far too restricting - similar to Deoxys-Defense. Samurott-H is extremely difficult to contain imo. SD on its own is a crazy breaker & its Ceaseless Edge invalidates many potential entry hazards solutions such as Mega Clefable or Hatterene. I do think both Pokemon offer a number of good qualities to the metagame of course, so perhaps suspecting them is more fair, but I also do not like how centralizing it can feel fighting them & believe them to be a caliber above other brokens given how common they are in comparison.

 

[fluff!!]

Enjoyment: 9 (would be an 8 if I filled the survey now)
Competitiveness: 9 (would be an 8 if I filled the survey now)
Damp Rock: No action
Mega Swampert: No action
(Preferred action on Damp Rock)
Annihilape: Suspect
Mega Metagross: No action
Mega Raichu Y: No action
Hisuiam Samurott: Suspect

Others: Glimmora for suspect

I really like this tier right now. There is still plenty of experimentation to make and you can make almost anything work if you try.
The only real gripe I have right now is that HO has a little too easy of a time setting Rocks and Webs and making them stick through Defog deterrence like Mega Staraptor/Defiant Falinks/Defiant Annihilape, as our main Magic Bouncers want NOTHING to do with Glimmora. Hence why I put Glimmora as a bonus mention. Though Annihilape is also a prime offender thanks to being the best Spin blocker and Defog deterrent.

Speaking of Annihilape, this is my main suspect candidate. In addition to what I said in the previous paragraph (which is an important part of the argument), Taunt/Bulk Up is very hard to deal with for any slower archetype and both fast variants or bulky max spdef variants are really effective at shutting down different forms of counterplay.

The other suspect vote I casted is on Hisuian Samurott. Personally, I'm 70/30 on no action. But a suspect would open the way for quality debating on Hisuian Samurott, and there is a LOT to say about this mon and how it shapes the tier. It deserves its own lengthy post from yours truly.

As a quick rundown on why I voted no action on the rest:
- Rain is kind of overrated and can be prepped for without making many concessions. But I wouldn't mind a Damp Rock ban I guess.
- I have very little to say about Mega Metagross due to how rare it is as of now. It gets ruined by Spikes and specifically Scarf Hamurott which is a big detriment, plus Hippowdon is picking up on popularity big time and can make it work hard. A lot of mons are just faster and can hit it super hard too, like Mega Delphox, Dragapult, or Mega Raichu Y.
- Mega Raichu Y: I find it easy to prep for and play around. Most of the time, just running Glowking + a Scarfer is enough to handle it easily, and it has a lot of problem matchups as well like Mega Meganium, Mega Dragalge, or Mega Venusaur it just cannot get past, not to mention how it explodes to priority. It also has issues actually OHKOing stuff that isn't weak to Electric, and when you're this frail on both defenses, that's bad... I have never felt like this mon was a problem.

 

[Bl4ze Delphox]

I like the tier, I just think that Damp Rock should go. Mega Metagross and Mega Raichu Y are fine to me, and they are not even suspect-worthy in my view. I am honestly surprised that it was even brought up. Neither is Annihilape. If anything, his defensive profile with high HP and okay defenses has a lot of potential. Hisuian Samurott is definitely a problem, but this is just natural since Heavy-Duty Boots don't exist. Still, I think there are some positive effects from his existence in the tier, like punishing Defog Corviknight with Encore. It could be banned, but I'm not sure if I would support it because I don't think there's anything uncompetitive about it. Survey asked for Top 10 so I didn't pick the question but I'm currently Top 29 and probably could reach there with some games, I feel like this should matter so I'm saying it here.

 

[swordisbored]

Although I didn't fill out the survey since that is cheating as per me quite literally making it and being a Council Member I feel left out and I haven't made a real post in a bit so let me larp and talk about how I feel about the metagame right now:

Enjoyment: 6
Competitiveness: 5

When it comes to my enjoyment of the tier it is mostly influenced by how stale and solved the metagame can feel at times with common cores taking over the ladder and most attempts at innovation being met with problems at every step, I think a few niche megas like Glimmora or Clefable are great but when it comes to regular Pokémon Corviknight + Glowking are almost impossible to pass up on when building balance and Pokémon like Garchomp and Hisuian Samurott are impossible to leave home without on offense.

As for the competitiveness of the tier I think it is greatly held back by how dominant offensive play is which as a result rewards cheesier strategies like hard rain and makes it impossible to respond to all of the metagame. It is overall fine though and with action taken on either Damp Rock or Mega Swampert I could see my ranking of the competitiveness of the tier rising to 6 or 7.

Damp Rock: Quick Ban
Mega Swampert: No action
(Preferred Action on Damp Rock)
Annihilape: Quick Ban
Mega Metagross: No action
Mega Raichu Y: Suspect
Hisuian Samurott: Quick Ban

In my opinion I think it is naïve to believe that Mega Swampert is the problem with rain especially so with Archaludon in the tier and rain teams without it still doing well with variants opting for Mega Dragonite and Mega Meganium amongst others. Although understandable in the reasonable perception that Mega Swampert teams are the most cheesy and generally uncompetitive I think action on Damp Rock is most reasonable here.

Annihilape from what I've seen isn't that strong against prepared teams and can be difficult to run against offense due to finding itself commonly on hazard stack teams. Much like Gholdengo, it sort of accentuates this top tier playstyle and with its ability Defiant dissuades Defog whilst also being a spinblocker. In my opinion, this kind of makes it a one trick pony and I don't think it is the best team member in slot on other playstyles but depending on what your running can feel unreasonable to handle. Basically, it limits teambuilding like Gholdengo albeit to a lesser extent.

Mega Metagross reminds me of PewDiePie, a man who is basically famous for being famous. In the same vain, Mega Metagross only finds itself in this conversation because you look at it and you kind of just assume it would be broken— it feels wrong that Mega Metagross is allowed but it ends up being just another solid mega. Despite solid typing, incredible stats, an incredible ability and a solid movepool it finds itself feeling weak in this metagame simply because of everything that surrounds it: Ghost and Dark-types reign supreme offensively and it suffers greatly from four moveslot syndrome which forces it to pick and choose what it can break through or not. Still, due to the nature of the reason as to why it isn't overwhelming, this is a Pokémon to keep an eye on and especially so if action is taken on the tier around it.

Mega Raichu Y is a Pokémon sort of similar to Mega Metagross in the way that it kind of just has no switchins if you have the perfect moves for the opponents team though what makes it more uncompetitive is its speed tier, far outshining Mega Metagross who feels oddly too slow and the ability to shoot off fully accurate Zap Cannons and Focus Blasts. Although paralysis was nerfed in Pokémon Champions, the ability to get a guaranteed paralysis on the opponent is not to be understated and limits what you could consider "a defensive check" greatly and paired with the fact that you're doing almost half to specially defensive Galarian Slowking due to your 160 special attack stat makes this Pokémon seem problematic. Despite this though, it ends up dying to Hisuian Samurott Sucker Punches from full and has the defenses of the average competitive Pokémon player (very little) and thus suffers from how common Choice Scarfers and priority are in this tier, especially combined with the fact that most Choice Scarfers like Hisuian Samurott, Meowscarada and Hydreigon run pivot moves and are able to claim momentum as a result. Unlike Mega Metagross though I think this Pokémon is simply stronger and should be thoroughly looked at. My criteria for whether something deserves to be banned consists of it feeling broken when using it and feeling broken when going against it and admittedly I haven't seen anyone run it but myself though I've used it to pretty great success. Basically, please terrorize the ladder with your Mega Raichu Y teams or my sample so I can form a more coherent opinion.

Hisuian Samurott in Champions OU might be one of the most unfun, oppressive, broken and metagame defining Pokémon in history. When compared to SV OU, Hisuian Samurott is powerful due to Ceaseless Edge and finds itself as a one trick pony due to the high power level. Compared to other Pokémon, it finds itself feeling sort of weak and is only OU due to the nature of its signature move. In Champions OU however? If Hisuian Samurott never had Ceaseless Edge it would still find itself being an OU Pokémon and in fact a great one at that due to its amazing ability, great typing, high power, access to a multitude of priority moves, access to pivoting, solid bulk and a solid speed tier. So WHY just WHY does it have an effective 90+ base power STAB move that sets Spikes on the field, causing hazard stack to define the tier and setting hazards whilst doing at least 20% to even the most dedicated of switchins. As well as this, any potential "switchin" is either being farmed and allows the Hisuian Samurott user three Spikes on the field whether the opponent likes it or not, is being pivoted on and losing momentum due to Flip Turn or is straight up dying to the absurd damage that Razor Shell/Aqua Cutter can do or is getting hit by something stupid like Aerial Ace and exploding. Not ever in my life have I ever seen a Pokémon who quite literally does everything, you can run him as a Choice Scarfer to revenge kill, a bulky Spikes setter, a Focus Sash lead, a setup sweeper, a disruptor with Encore or Taunt, an item remover, a mixed attacker, utilise him as one of the most broken priority users in the game. HISUIAN SAMUROTT DOES EVERYTHING. This guy is terrifying on preview and defines the tier. He defines who I lead with, he defines what I do in the builder, he defines my perception of the tier and defines hazard stack which is arguably the strongest archetype. I HATE HISUIAN SAMUROTT. I HATE HIM.

 

[Moyashi]

When compared to SV OU, Hisuian Samurott is powerful due to Ceaseless Edge and finds itself as a one trick pony due to the high power level

Click to collapse...

Just gonna say that this isn’t true at all. While edge is what gives it OU relevance, it’s an immensely versatile pokemon which has a multitude of viable sets which mass it very splashable in SVOU and very good. It’s the furthest thing from one trick pony.

Respectfully I also disagree about rain and swampert, or rather that damp rock is the target to pick. Rain was a solid play style prior to Pert being added, but it was never really an issue because the structures lacked that speed control and major secondary oomph that was so consistently threatening. You had Basculegion which both forms are solid at this, but their lower power and lack of secondary stab holds them back notably. Rain really wasn’t an issue prior to pert being added, and the mon’s ability to just overwhelm teams while contributing to their defensive integrity with the bulk and typing, also makes it much much better than basc.

 

[swordisbored]

Just gonna say that this isn’t true at all. While edge is what gives it OU relevance, it’s an immensely versatile pokemon which has a multitude of viable sets which mass it very splashable in SVOU and very good. It’s the furthest thing from one trick pony.

Respectfully I also disagree about rain and swampert, or rather that damp rock is the target to pick. Rain was a solid play style prior to Pert being added, but it was never really an issue because the structures lacked that speed control and major secondary oomph that was so consistently threatening. You had Basculegion which both forms are solid at this, but their lower power and lack of secondary stab holds them back notably. Rain really wasn’t an issue prior to pert being added, and the mon’s ability to just overwhelm teams while contributing to their defensive integrity with the bulk and typing, also makes it much much better than basc.

Click to collapse...

Fair enough, I'm not going to claim I know much about SV OU due to being a ladder merchant and nothing else.

I think when it comes to rain you're neglecting that Damp Rock wasn't in the game before M-B which was the cause for it being a lot weaker, you're also not mentioning how its strongest asset is Archaludon. Archaludon not only has zero switchins but also nothing can threaten it safely due to commonly running Shuca Berry or Chople Berry to bypass its weaknesses. It is important to realise that Damp Rock makes a huge difference, allowing you to position your offensive threats better and not be stalled out of turns. If you think Mega Swampert is the problem then I think you need to realise teams opting for other megas have had similar success and are just as good if not better due to the nature of not being as matchup dependant.

Also, Life Orb has made a big difference when it comes to rain abusers: specifically the Basculegions and Overqwil. For example, Basc-F hits crazy numbers like Surf OHKOing maximum HP invested Kingambit under rain and can enter that game state using Substitute as seen in my sample team. Also yeah Basc-M Phantom Force can be seen as unreliable, though I still consider it good as long as the opponent doesn't have a Normal-type but Basc-F's Shadow Ball is not something to ignore.

Generally too, I think the way that the metagame has evolved has generally benefitted the rain archetype and specifically Basculegion-F who I genuinely think is enough of a rain abuser in itself to help the archetype succeed. If you look at the tier, the lack of special walls is obvious and Toxapex usage is lower than ever.

Mega Swampert is still a problem though, I agree. It has minimal switchins. Though, I don't think it'll be worth it without Damp Rock and even if it is it'll be a lot more manageable.

 

[theaprilfool]

Kinda surprised by the mons mentioned in the survey, but nice to see one. Personally, I'm enjoying the current meta and don't believe anything other than Damp Rock and Hamurott is suspect worthy right now.

8-turn Rain is unhealthy, imo. Even if Swampert gets banned, Mega Greninja or Meganium rain teams could easily get problematic after that. Archaludon trades way too well with Shuca or Sitrus sets, and Basculegion/Overqwil is all you need for speed control.

Hamurott is one of those mons that's hard to justify not using. It's too good and can fill just about any role you need it to. This may sound like it's broken, but we honestly don't have a lot to build with. If you get the chance to run something that can set up Spikes, resist Dark/Ghost, and also be a scarfer, wallbreaker or lead, yeah, just do it. Not gonna lie, I get a bit worried about what effect banning it would have on the meta. We just got rid of Gholdengo because it made hazard removal virtually impossible, then Hamurott... idk, do we really need to ban every mon that threatens passive teams? It might be centralizing, but there is definitely more than enough counterplay. Suspect is fair though.

Metagross is underwhelming right now, but this is probably because the most common archetype is HO. Eventually, if Balance gets more use, Metagross has potential, especially Psychic Noise sets, which makes it able to beat Hippo and Corv. I don't think it'll ever be banworthy though. Lots of counterplay available and it can't hit everything it wants to.

Annihilape is balanced... maybe even bad? Of course, it's still strong against fat, extremely slow teams that can't touch it, but this is probably just questionable building. Rage Fist nerfs and the amount of offensive stuff that can force it out made it easily manageable (even by said teams if they have Clef or BB Corv).

Raichu Y is awesome and certainly benefits from the lack of good ground types, but there's a good amount of defensive counterplay (Meganium, Dragalge, Sinistcha, Galarking, Gliscor). It's also extremely frail and susceptible to priority. Don't see enough reasoning to suspect it for now.

By the way, we should remember that the meta will be in constant change for the next few years, so more quickbans than regular suspects are justifiable. However, the uniqueness of Champs OU demands more playerbase influence on the decisions that are taken. More surveys like this and perhaps even alternative suspect tests would be nice so the community can contribute in a faster way.

 

[harriss2205]

I've really been solidifying my opinions on this mete game over the last couple of days. I've gotten as high as rank 88 on the ladder, and have since gone on a generational fall-off. But, I want to say, I think the people running this meta have done a really good job so far.

 

[bsjb]

I reached third place in the ranked ladder with my rain M-swamp team the day before yesterday, but I dropped down yesterday.
team url: https://pokepast.es/4ef9e6e1a7e92360
With Wave Crash, Swampert can reliably 2HKO Corviknight and the Rotom of lack maximum def; neither Mega Dragalge nor Mega Metagross can withstand swamp's attacks. Poison Jab handles Meganium (Ice Punch is not recommended, as its damage output is comparable to Earthquake even against targets weak to Ice).
Swampert now boasts offensive power comparable to Life Orb Bascu and Ground-type coverage, while also being Unafraid of Sucker Punch. The offensive strategy in rain involves using Swampert and Bascu as a "suicide squad" to bombard the opponent; if you encounter an unmanageable defensive wall—such as Slowbro or Corviknight that keeps using Roost—you can simply use Flip Turn to pivot into Archaludon to handle it. The player using the rain team only needs to focus on attacking and making predictive plays, putting all the pressure on the opponent.
Additionally, I recommend running a Special Attack-boosting nature and Ice Beam on Pelipper, allowing it to deal with Garchomp, a common threat in the metagame.
From my personal experience, the Rain system doesn't have a high ceiling, but it requires no complex strategic maneuvering
and offers a high skill floor. Both the Swampert and Bascu sets are tied to rain; if the opponent changes the weather, the match becomes an uphill battle. Therefore, the Damp Rock isn't the main threaten. The truly matter is Swampert's Water/Ground offensive coverage. When countering rain teams, rather than searching for a defensive pivot capable of tanking a Wave Crash, it is far more effective to simply run a weather setter like Hippowdon; by using Stealth Rock to chip away at Pelipper's HP, you can easily
defeat the rain team.

 

[PEAKrow]

In my opinion, H-Samu is just so oppressive in profile; Dark/Water is one of the most coveted STAB/defensive type combos in the teir, with its Scarf set still operating as a last-ditch switch-in. It has not one, not two, but THREE priority options on deck. Ceaseless Edge is just not fair in a no-boots meta, and there are multiple ways of punishing removal attempts these days. Sure Corv can come in..... until it loses 54% to black glasses. By the way do you know it has a bulky spread that can perform both a trade machine and a switch-in proper? Taunt and Encore to further frustrate defog/setup attempts. Did u u-turn on it? Well tough luck it clicked sword dance so u better pray u have a Clef. Roost? Setup fodder with Encore. Did u switch in a fighting type check it? Tough luck it has AERIAL ACE! Want to rock up and spread Toxic Spikes with Glim? Good luck a Surf is coming your way. Garchomp better revenge kill because Ice beam is a real move. It becomes a guessing game when facing it, and this level of set variety is approaching pre-Tera Blast ban Dragonite, and the dragon had legit ban conversations surrounding it. Besides, its profile can be replaced offensively by Greninja (who knows, its Mega might actually be useful when the otter is gone). In short, a suspect could (should) be looked at.

 

[Zyro Pegasi Thunder]

:Swampert-Mega:
Typing: Water/Ground
Ability: Swift Swim
Health Points: 100
Physical Attack: 150
Physical Defense: 110
Special Attack: 95
Special Defense: 110
Speed Tier: 70

In my opinion, :Swampert-Mega: is the real problem, not Damp Rock.

:Swampert-Mega: already has one of the best defensive typings in the game: Water/Ground. It resists Fire, Poison, Rock, and Steel, is completely immune to Electric, and its only weakness is Grass. Normally that would be a significant drawback, but without Rillaboom in the tier, offensive Grass-types are practically nonexistent.

Then look at its bulk: 100/110/110. A simple way I estimate bulk is by multiplying HP with each defensive stat. :Swampert-Mega: reaches roughly 11,000 on both the physical and special sides. For comparison, Corviknight reaches around 10,290 on the physical side alone. I know :Swampert-Mega: isn't used as a defensive wall, but the fact that a premier rain sweeper naturally has this level of bulk is absurd.

Now add Swift Swim. Its base 70 Speed effectively jumps to the equivalent of a 268 Speed tier under rain, allowing it to outspeed nearly everything relevant. Pair that with 150 base Attack, STAB-boosted Water moves that are further boosted by rain, and its damage output becomes overwhelming. It also has coverage like Ice Punch to punish Grass- and Flying-types trying to check it.

This is why I think banning Damp Rock only creates a minor inconvenience for :Swampert-Mega: rather than solving the actual issue. Rain teams lose a few turns, but :Swampert-Mega: is still devastating whenever rain is active. Meanwhile, every other rain archetype and rain abuser gets caught in the crossfire despite not necessarily being broken.

Base stat values are not actual value so
From negative nature for defense no investment in either to maximum investment in both HP and defense with defense boosting nature

• 117 × 175 = 20,475
• 178 × 207 = 36,846

My suggest priority action against
no. 1: :Swampert-Mega:(too annoying and too oppressive)
no. 2: :Archaludon:(If it had any water type move then no 1 but rn second to :Swampert-Mega:)
no. 3: :Pelipper:(Banning a setter is kind of ridiculous you are basically erasing an archetype and nerfing countless Pokemon)
no 4: :Damp Rock: (I don't think banning Damp Rock addresses the root cause. It broadly weakens the entire rain archetype instead of targeting the Pokémon that actually make it unhealthy.)

Peace out :Zeraora-Mega:

 

[fluff!!]

I am of the opinion that Rain is manageable and does not need a nerf, but I must concede that I am in the minority here so I'll give my input on how to proceed.

Two important points first:
1. Mega Swampert is NOT the #1 problem with Rain: Archaludon is.
2. A Damp Rock ban might NOT be the correct choice

For point number 1, Mega Swampert is much easier to prep for than Archaludon and much easier to play around in game. A fat Water resist is enough to give Swampert a lot of trouble already, and it taking so much recoil from Wave Crash makes it easier to KO. Archaludon however, is much trickier to deal with. Firstly because under Rain, its only real switch in is SpDef Hippowdon. And while it is a solid mon, you'd rather run physdef, and 1 counter is not enough anyway. The premier special sponge Glowking takes a ton from an initial Electro Shot, and you gotta do something about the full health +1 SpA threat in front of you. On top of this, while Mega Swampert is very straightforward, Archaludon can run a plethora of combinations of EV investment and items do beat whatever it wants. The main culprits being Shuca Berry and Chople Berry allowing it to tank anything it so chooses and most likely OHKO back thanks to the +1 SpA from Electro Shot. Choice Scarf is also a real option. I even played against a Sturdy Archaludon one time. When in battle, it is near impossible to guess what the Archaludon is actually running so you often have to take gambles. And if you still think that Mega Swampert is the problem because it beats Corviknight (a trait that does not automatically make an attacker broken btw), then... Basculegion can do the same. It does it better in fact, thanks to the Body Press immunity.

Point number 2 now. While Damp Rock would undeniably nerf Rain to some degree, it's not exactly as cut and dry as one might think. First off, banning Damp Rock changes very little in matchups where the opponent can reset the weather. In such a matchup, you'll rarely get more than 5 turns of Rain anyway ; which would actually BUFF Rain is this scenario, as your Pelipper now can hold an item that actually does something: a Scarf for the surprise factor, a Sash to ensure a slow pivot or Tailwind, Leftovers for improved longevity...
But even in matchups where this is not a factor, Rain rarely needs more than 5 turns to do big damage. The whole point of the operation is to U-turn with Pelipper to the threat, in which case your safely pivoted threat has 4 whole turns to wreak havoc. In fact, it will help Rain in scenarios where a threat is KO'ed but you still have 2 Damp Rock turns left, and now you can't reset Rain for more turns. Without Damp Rock, you can reset Rain and once again safely pivot into a threat with MORE Rain turns than you would have had with Damp Rock. Of course, this won't always be the case ; but I am confident that such a scenario happens regularly enough to where it ends up being even for Rain.

After pondering on it for a while, I propose that the best move here, if we are aiming to ban as little as possible, is to ban Pelipper. Politoed does not have a pivoting move, which Pelipper loves to abuse to get threats in safely. Pelipper's access to Tailwind also improves its support capabilities significantly; especially in a post-Damp Rock ban situation where Focus Sash may become the norm. On top of this, Pelipper having Hurricane as STAB makes it harder for Grass types to threaten it. While Politoed does have its own tools, such as Whirlpool + Perish Song which would be pretty decent on its own, I do think that it is worse than Pelipper. However, I do understand that Perish trapping would be pretty good at getting rid of unsuspecting fat Waters and even some Grasses. If that ever becomes a concern, the second best option is to ban Archaludon. In fact, I considered it as my #1 choice too and it's very, very close between Pelipper and Archaludon.

tl;dr if action would be taken on Rain, my ranking of the options would be:
1. Pelipper
2. Archaludon (it could very well be argued that it's the better choice)
and then far below:
3. Damp Rock
4. Mega Swampert ( I would never do that btw. This fixes nothing )


EDIT: Actually I changed my mind, ban Archaludon. That's it!

 

[Zyro Pegasi Thunder]

Before :Swampert-Mega:, rain existed but wasn't viewed as oppressive. After :Swampert-Mega: was introduced, rain suddenly became one of the most controversial archetypes. That strongly suggests the addition of :Swampert-Mega: not :Damp Rock: itself is what pushed rain over the line.

 

[fluff!!]

Before :Swampert-Mega:, rain existed but wasn't viewed as oppressive. After :Swampert-Mega: was introduced, rain suddenly became one of the most controversial archetypes. That strongly suggests the addition of :Swampert-Mega: not :Damp Rock: itself is what pushed rain over the line.

Click to collapse...

Last update also introduced Damp Rock.

 

[Zyro Pegasi Thunder]

Last update also introduced Damp Rock.

Click to collapse...

It's true that the same update introduced Rock:, so we can't isolate the cause based on timing alone. However, I think the stronger evidence is how much :Swampert-Mega: itself contributes. Rain had access to other abusers before, but :Swampert-Mega:'s combination of Water/Ground typing, 100/110/110 bulk, 150 Attack, Swift Swim, and access to Wave Crash gives it a level of consistency and power that previous rain abusers simply didn't have.

On top of that, I think Wave Crash is by far the biggest buff any returning Mega Evolution received. It gave :Swampert-Mega: a 120 Base Power physical Water STAB that is further boosted by rain, dramatically increasing its wall breaking potential. Even if Rock: contributes to rain's strength, I don't think it is the primary reason the archetype became so controversial.

 

[fluff!!]

It's true that the same update introduced Rock:, so we can't isolate the cause based on timing alone. However, I think the stronger evidence is how much :Swampert-Mega: itself contributes. Rain had access to other abusers before, but :Swampert-Mega:'s combination of Water/Ground typing, 100/110/110 bulk, 150 Attack, Swift Swim, and access to Wave Crash gives it a level of consistency and power that previous rain abusers simply didn't have.

On top of that, I think Wave Crash is by far the biggest buff any returning Mega Evolution received. It gave :Swampert-Mega: a 120 Base Power physical Water STAB that is further boosted by rain, dramatically increasing its wall breaking potential. Even if Rock: contributes to rain's strength, I don't think it is the primary reason the archetype became so controversial.

Click to collapse...

You put too much importance in numbers. You have to put them in perspective, how it translates in the game. Sure, Water/Ground gives an Electric immunity, but Electric moves are really rare. Raichu-Y has Grass Knot anyway, and Rotom-Wash has Hydro Pump. It has good natural bulk, but it does not invest in bulk which does not make it that egregious in practice, plus it chips itself with Wave Crash, undermining this natural bulk further. Wave Crash is a boost in power, but it does not actually help him beat down the fat Water resists it has always struggled with. That Mega Venusaur, Hydrapple, or Slowbro won't flinch. It is fast under Rain, but the only Scarfer that will outspeed it, Meowscarada, also happens to OHKO it with Flower Trick. Its also more susceptible to priority than ever, with Spikes and Wave Crash recoil quickly whittling its HP.

 

[PEAKrow]

I am of the opinion that Rain is manageable and does not need a nerf, but I must concede that I am in the minority here so I'll give my input on how to proceed.

Two important points first:
1. Mega Swampert is NOT the #1 problem with Rain: Archaludon is.
2. A Damp Rock ban might NOT be the correct choice

For point number 1, Mega Swampert is much easier to prep for than Archaludon and much easier to play around in game. A fat Water resist is enough to give Swampert a lot of trouble already, and it taking so much recoil from Wave Crash makes it easier to KO. Archaludon however, is much trickier to deal with. Firstly because under Rain, its only real switch in is SpDef Hippowdon. And while it is a solid mon, you'd rather run physdef, and 1 counter is not enough anyway. The premier special sponge Glowking takes a ton from an initial Electro Shot, and you gotta do something about the full health +1 SpA threat in front of you. On top of this, while Mega Swampert is very straightforward, Archaludon can run a plethora of combinations of EV investment and items do beat whatever it wants. The main culprits being Shuca Berry and Chople Berry allowing it to tank anything it so chooses and most likely OHKO back thanks to the +1 SpA from Electro Shot. Choice Scarf is also a real option. I even played against a Sturdy Archaludon one time. When in battle, it is near impossible to guess what the Archaludon is actually running so you often have to take gambles. And if you still think that Mega Swampert is the problem because it beats Corviknight (a trait that does not automatically make an attacker broken btw), then... Basculegion can do the same. It does it better in fact, thanks to the Body Press immunity.

Point number 2 now. While Damp Rock would undeniably nerf Rain to some degree, it's not exactly as cut and dry as one might think. First off, banning Damp Rock changes very little in matchups where the opponent can reset the weather. In such a matchup, you'll rarely get more than 5 turns of Rain anyway ; which would actually BUFF Rain is this scenario, as your Pelipper now can hold an item that actually does something: a Scarf for the surprise factor, a Sash to ensure a slow pivot or Tailwind, Leftovers for improved longevity...
But even in matchups where this is not a factor, Rain rarely needs more than 5 turns to do big damage. The whole point of the operation is to U-turn with Pelipper to the threat, in which case your safely pivoted threat has 4 whole turns to wreak havoc. In fact, it will help Rain in scenarios where a threat is KO'ed but you still have 2 Damp Rock turns left, and now you can't reset Rain for more turns. Without Damp Rock, you can reset Rain and once again safely pivot into a threat with MORE Rain turns than you would have had with Damp Rock. Of course, this won't always be the case ; but I am confident that such a scenario happens regularly enough to where it ends up being even for Rain.

After pondering on it for a while, I propose that the best move here, if we are aiming to ban as little as possible, is to ban Pelipper. Politoed does not have a pivoting move, which Pelipper loves to abuse to get threats in safely. Pelipper's access to Tailwind also improves its support capabilities significantly; especially in a post-Damp Rock ban situation where Focus Sash may become the norm. On top of this, Pelipper having Hurricane as STAB makes it harder for Grass types to threaten it. While Politoed does have its own tools, such as Whirlpool + Perish Song which would be pretty decent on its own, I do think that it is worse than Pelipper. However, I do understand that Perish trapping would be pretty good at getting rid of unsuspecting fat Waters and even some Grasses. If that ever becomes a concern, the second best option is to ban Archaludon. In fact, I considered it as my #1 choice too and it's very, very close between Pelipper and Archaludon.

tl;dr if action would be taken on Rain, my ranking of the options would be:
1. Pelipper
2. Archaludon (it could very well be argued that it's the better choice)
and then far below:
3. Damp Rock
4. Mega Swampert ( I would never do that btw. This fixes nothing )

Click to collapse...

You know what? I agree! I kid you not, I have seen a rain dance Dragonite, and I nearly lost even after getting rid of the Arch. Arch requires u to sacrifice at least one mon to take down, and what ever mon u used to one-shot has already been placed in a compromised position

 

[Zyro Pegasi Thunder]

You put too much importance in numbers. You have to put them in perspective, how it translates in the game. Sure, Water/Ground gives an Electric immunity, but Electric moves are really rare. Raichu-Y has Grass Knot anyway, and Rotom-Wash has Hydro Pump. It has good natural bulk, but it does not invest in bulk which does not make it that egregious in practice, plus it chips itself with Wave Crash, undermining this natural bulk further. Wave Crash is a boost in power, but it does not actually help him beat down the fat Water resists it has always struggled with. That Mega Venusaur, Hydrapple, or Slowbro won't flinch. It is fast under Rain, but the only Scarfer that will outspeed it, Meowscarada, also happens to OHKO it with Flower Trick. Its also more susceptible to priority than ever, with Spikes and Wave Crash recoil quickly whittling its HP.

Click to collapse...

I agree that numbers alone don't determine whether a Pokémon is broken. Context matters. However, I think those numbers are backed up by how :Swampert-Mega: performs in practice.

Wave Crash may not let :Swampert-Mega: beat every bulky Water or Grass-type, but it doesn't need to. Very few Pokémon should be expected to break every defensive answer. The important question is whether the list of reliable answers is too small for how much offensive pressure it exerts.

I also don't think Wave Crash recoil is enough to balance it. If :Swampert-Mega: is trading recoil for one or two KOs, that's often a worthwhile exchange for a rain team.

I also don't think it's fair to judge :Swampert-Mega: by assuming it will blindly click Wave Crash into every Water or Grass-type. It has Earthquake and Ice Punch for a reason. Earthquake is still an incredibly strong STAB option against many Water-resistant targets, while Ice Punch threatens Grass-types on the switch. Pokémon like :Hydrapple:, despite resisting Water, are also 4× weak to Ice, so they can't switch in recklessly either.

As for priority and Meowscarada, those are legitimate offensive checks, but having offensive counterplay doesn't necessarily mean a Pokémon is healthy. Many top-tier wallbreakers have revenge killers; the question is whether they force too much progress before they can be revenge killed.

I also don't think Meowscarada is as straightforward an answer as it sounds. If you know Choice Scarf Meowscarada outspeeds :Swampert-Mega:, why would you stay in instead of switching out? That's just normal gameplay. Likewise, because of Item Clause, seeing a :Meowscarada: doesn't automatically mean it's the Choice Scarf user. Plenty of Pokémon can make excellent use of a Choice Scarf, so you have to respect the possibility, but you can't assume it every game.

I'm not saying :Swampert-Mega: has no answers. Rather, I think its combination of Water/Ground typing, natural bulk, Swift Swim, and coverage means its list of reliable checks is smaller than it first appears, and that's what makes it unhealthy in my eyes.

:Zeraora-Mega::Peace out!

 

[Crazeysman]

Enjoyment: 7
Competitive: 7
Damp rock: no action
Mega Swampert: suspect
archaludon: suspect
(Perfred action on archaludon)
Annhilappe: Quick ban
Mega metagross: no action
Mega raichu Y: no action
hisuian samurott- suspect

As some have said before I don’t believe the rain archetype is the problem itself, rather the tools it has access to. Damp rock is not one of them. Between all the switching that takes place under rain and non effective turns against counters the length of rain is really no much of an issue. For the main user itself (pelipper) it becomes a huge target for knock off and has to exchange defensive and recovery options for longer weather, which can be taken advantage of.

I’ve mellowed out on mega swampert the last 2 weeks. I’m a 60/40 on wether any action should be taken against it, check like Taurus P Aqua, rotom, and meowscada exist and we’re already popular picks before swampert was even added back to the game. I still think it’s absurd that swampert in rain can 2HKO some of the bulkiest mons in the meta game right now and it’s a an excellent partner to the real problem in rain.

archaludon is a big problem, in reg M-A we got glimpses of what this Mon would be and I’ll admit I wasn’t too fond of it then either. You have a Mon who has access to a move that increases its special attack a stage as long as it hits, even against ground types (now 100% accurate in rain). An ability that punishes pivoting and non effective attacks, increasing its bulk against mons that should be its checks. A very solid moveset and powerful and spamable stabs, alll while being a pseudo legendary. After just one turn archaludon can become the equivalent of a mega pseudo legendary. With pelipper as a slow pivot to bring it in and to threaten and fighting threats, as well as mega swampert as a fast pivot/ wall breaker to kill opposing ground and dragon threats, as well as sponge hits from them. archaludon becomes incredibly difficult to play against and it’s almost stupid how easy it is to win games with this core.
If only one of these three rain things had to go, I’d opt for archaludon first, and mega swampert second, and damp rock last.

I’ve said it in another post but annihilape is busted, especially on hazzard teams, it’s nearly impossible to remove the hazard either due to annihilape being immune to rapid spin, being resistant to gillmmora and its stabs as well as its mortal spin which only serves to boost its rage fists. The dreaded defog interaction which we all know how that goes. Taunt + bulk up just wins games off rip, its bulk allows it survive against most special attackers that aren’t megas or especially strong, and its rest + chesto berry, your wasting your time trying to use status. This Mon should be quick banned, its pretty much gholdengo in terms of spin blocking, while becoming an offensive threat at the same time.

Mega metagross suffers from 4 move slot syndrome and has to many clear counters which as strong scarfers, dark/ ghost types, king gambit, ageislash, cereludge, etc. its strong for sure but there is plenty of counter play, might reconsider after a few other bans.

Raichu Y is just underwhelming for me at least in this metagame. It’s strong don’t get me wrong but the counter play is stupid easy. A Mon with good spdef that is neutral, resistant, immune to its zap cannon and can hit back to kill it as it’s a glass cannon. Two popular megas, meganium and dragaluge completely counter it and are able to one shot it. It’s para spreading is tough to deal with but again if you have at least one of the three things mentioned above you should be fine.

As for H Sammy, I’m a 50/50 It’s the leader of a particularly deviant playstyle that has terrorized the champions metagame for two metagames. It has a deep pocket of tools and incredibly synergy with the items available, and fits on almost any team. I believe it should be tested and potentially banned, but likely once other item and mons get added it should be unbanned. I don’t find Sammy to be particularly strong on its own or difficult to deal with, but I play primarily balance teams with strong pivots that tend to destroy Sammy.

 

[fluff!!]

Enjoyment: 7
Competitive: 7
Damp rock: no action
Mega Swampert: suspect
archaludon: suspect
(Perfred action on archaludon)
Annhilappe: Quick ban
Mega metagross: no action
Mega raichu Y: no action
hisuian samurott- suspect

As some have said before I don’t believe the rain archetype is the problem itself, rather the tools it has access to. Damp rock is not one of them. Between all the switching that takes place under rain and non effective turns against counters the length of rain is really no much of an issue. For the main user itself (pelipper) it becomes a huge target for knock off and has to exchange defensive and recovery options for longer weather, which can be taken advantage of.

I’ve mellowed out on mega swampert the last 2 weeks. I’m a 60/40 on wether any action should be taken against it, check like Taurus P Aqua, rotom, and meowscada exist and we’re already popular picks before swampert was even added back to the game. I still think it’s absurd that swampert in rain can 2HKO some of the bulkiest mons in the meta game right now and it’s a an excellent partner to the real problem in rain.

archaludon is a big problem, in reg M-A we got glimpses of what this Mon would be and I’ll admit I wasn’t too fond of it then either. You have a Mon who has access to a move that increases its special attack a stage as long as it hits, even against ground types (now 100% accurate in rain). An ability that punishes pivoting and non effective attacks, increasing its bulk against mons that should be its checks. A very solid moveset and powerful and spamable stabs, alll while being a pseudo legendary. After just one turn archaludon can become the equivalent of a mega pseudo legendary. With pelipper as a slow pivot to bring it in and to threaten and fighting threats, as well as mega swampert as a fast pivot/ wall breaker to kill opposing ground and dragon threats, as well as sponge hits from them. archaludon becomes incredibly difficult to play against and it’s almost stupid how easy it is to win games with this core.
If only one of these three rain things had to go, I’d opt for archaludon first, and mega swampert second, and damp rock last.

I’ve said it in another post but annihilape is busted, especially on hazzard teams, it’s nearly impossible to remove the hazard either due to annihilape being immune to rapid spin, being resistant to gillmmora and its stabs as well as its mortal spin which only serves to boost its rage fists. The dreaded defog interaction which we all know how that goes. Taunt + bulk up just wins games off rip, its bulk allows it survive against most special attackers that aren’t megas or especially strong, and its rest + chesto berry, your wasting your time trying to use status. This Mon should be quick banned, its pretty much gholdengo in terms of spin blocking, while becoming an offensive threat at the same time.

Mega metagross suffers from 4 move slot syndrome and has to many clear counters which as strong scarfers, dark/ ghost types, king gambit, ageislash, cereludge, etc. its strong for sure but there is plenty of counter play, might reconsider after a few other bans.

Raichu Y is just underwhelming for me at least in this metagame. It’s strong don’t get me wrong but the counter play is stupid easy. A Mon with good spdef that is neutral, resistant, immune to its zap cannon and can hit back to kill it as it’s a glass cannon. Two popular megas, meganium and dragaluge completely counter it and are able to one shot it. It’s para spreading is tough to deal with but again if you have at least one of the three things mentioned above you should be fine.

As for H Sammy, I’m a 50/50 It’s the leader of a particularly deviant playstyle that has terrorized the champions metagame for two metagames. It has a deep pocket of tools and incredibly synergy with the items available, and fits on almost any team. I believe it should be tested and potentially banned, but likely once other item and mons get added it should be unbanned. I don’t find Sammy to be particularly strong on its own or difficult to deal with, but I play primarily balance teams with strong pivots that tend to destroy Sammy.

Click to collapse...

post so based and factually correct I almost cried.

Your explanation on Annihilape too? Absolute mic drop. Get this monster out of here.

I'd like to add the fact that Glimmora + SpDef Annihilape + PhysDef Volcarona is the work of Satan and can win on autopilot against so, so much.

 

[Crazeysman]

post so based and factually correct I almost cried.

Your explanation on Annihilape too? Absolute mic drop. Get this monster out of here.

I'd like to add the fact that Glimmora + SpDef Annihilape + PhysDef Volcarona is the work of Satan and can win on autopilot against so, so much.

Click to collapse...

The memento gilmmora with hazzards has been the bane of my existence. It’s a coin flip between mud shot or memento, you guess memento wrong and pivot they mud shot and get free t spikes, try to beat the t spikes they just memento and bring out volcarona or annihliape.

I was tempted to talk about all three but Annihilape seems to be the one benefiting the most out of the trio.

 

[harriss2205]

I've reached number 88 on the ladder (currently very low but I have proof of it if needed), and did so trying to run defensive hazard stack. I think that the meta-game is really fun, as I said before, but I do have some qualms.

Re: Rain, I've seen a lot of people saying that it doesn't need as strong tiering action as it might have intially seemed to. Crazeysman posted a really good response like an hour ago and I agree with it on a principled level.

Re: Annihilape, I haven't seen enough of it to have my own anecdotal evidence. I've tried running it a few times, and have fought it a few times. I can tell that its good, but haven't seen it do anything crazy. That being said, analytically I think it's always going to be good, and there's a question to be asked about how well we want hazard teams to punish removal.
I think about defiant bisharp back in the day, and how it punished defog users with knock-off/sucker punch. It was really good, obviously, but it felt like there was reliable recourse even after it got that +2 buff because it was slow enough to force sucker punch mindgames, and frail enough that a lot of strong, super-effective hits would just one bang it. That is to say, the Bisharp player still has to execute. I haven't seen Annihilape 6/0 off of a defiant boost, but its not a suprising idea to me that it can, and I think that the lack of reliable counterplay to a +1 defense Annihilape is probably too little. To me, its a suspect test, but not an instant ban.

People seem pretty split on Hisuian Samurott, though leaning towards tiering action. I imagine theres a degree of participant bias in this kind of conversation, and we'll all be more inclined towards tiering action than leaving things alone, otherwise we probably wouldn't be in here talking. Participant psychology aside, I really don't enjoy playing with Hamurott and think it makes the metagame worse to play with. I've got an argument for it, which I can lay out as follows:

Tl;DR
- We generally want a metagame to achieve a certain level of balance in playstyle strength, where there are viable teams across most archetypes.
- If we want archetype versatility, then we would not want a pokemon which fit quite exclusively on one archetype, and which severely limited other archetypes without much room for counterplay.
- Hamurott only fits on offense to hyper-offense, including rain, and severely limits bulky offense, balance, semi stall and stall teams.
Conclusion: We probably would not want Hamurott in the tier until the counterplay arrives for the bulky team archetypes.

__Premise 1: Do we want archetype versatility?__
It shouldn't be taken as an assumption that we want archetype versatility. Some people really like offensive meta games, some people really like stall metas. I personally enjoy metagames with a wide variety of effective strategies, and I feel sufficiently justified in that claim. If you disagree, power to you, but I think that's a broader conversation than hamurott and deserves its own time.

__Premise 2: Do counters limit archetype viability?__
Not always. Mega Venusaur, Mega Chesnaught and Spdf Hippowdon (rip Jimmy) all counter rain in some way, but they certainly haven't removed its viability. On the other hand, I believe that sun is pretty unviable in champions ou, and that the strength of rain as a counter is a large part of the reason why. I don't just want to say "oh, some counters can and some can't," but that's got to be the starting principle.
I think counters limit archetype viability when its unsustainable for a given team archetype to build around the counter while also maintaining its strength against the relevant offensive/defensive cores that define the meta. I think excadrill/tyranitar sand can surpass the corviknight counter by using hazards and complimentary breakers, but if you took away the rotoms and raichu of the world, I'd say corviknight pretty consistently kills sand as an archetype. (Might be slightly hyperbolic). If we can find answers in the builder that aren't sunflora, and aren't going to leave us helpless against the more common teams that aren't running a particular counter, then we're good. If we aren't, then, we aren't.

__Premise 3: Does Hamurott oppresively counter =<balance tempo teams?__
I think so? Honestly? Hamurott is hard walled by mega chesnaught, whose my favourite of the new megas, but even then, hamurott can break through w/ aerial ace sets. If we aren't talking about hard walls, then we've got soft checks like body press corviknight and mold breaker hawlucha (out of date now that gholdengo is banned). These guys can reliably eat a ceaseless edge, but they either don't have the bulk to take them consitently or don't put enough pressure back onto hamurott to keep it humble. Clefable gets shredded by aqua cutter, Umbreon is too passive, etc etc. I might be exposing my lack of knowledge here, but I think its really hard to fit effective counters on the team. Especially with the monkey in the back to spin block or pick up the momentum after a defog.

Based off of all of this, I think its not the right time for hamurott to be in the tier. I'm very open to it being unbanned, bc I like clicking ceaseless edge for free value, and I don't think I'll stop playing the metagame if it stays.

Thanks for reading my ramble!

 

[Magcargo]

Gonna be real - i don't really think Annihilape really excentuates any Hazard issue even with Defiant. Fact is - its not even a safe switch-in to brave bird Corv as is compared to something like Aegislash. The nerf to Rage Fist IMO is also HUGE and makes it viable to actually click pivot moves on Annihilape now - as opposed to before where you would want to switch in and out of pivot moves to eventually get that 300 BP rage fist. Same applies to moves like Dragon Tail, which you can also safely click on Annihilape as well. Because of this - I find it much easier to actually pressure annihilape throughout the course of a game & also find that its not nearly as gamebreaking as before. Of course, it is still annoying for bulkier builds to handle with sets like Taunt BU - but conversely, I also feel that bulkier builds have more options to annoy it now. - Clefable (both regular and Mega) are great answers, Brave Bird Corviknight is quite an annoying MU as well, and there are many megas that can annoy it. Fast Encore mons like Maushold can also make it a pain for ape to even click rage fist in the first place. Additionally, if ape doesnt have any rage fist boosts, then bulkier Ghost or Psychics like Aegislash can also be tough for it to muscle through.

One annoyance that I personally have is that Annihilape and Gambit are kinda annoying to answer together with Corviknight. I largely find ID + BP to be the best Corv set for my money because it can easily reverse sweep, but Ape can make this tactic annoying to pull off. However, this isn't necessarily a bad thing and I feel Corv can adapt with other sets like Bulk Up Brave Bird or Body Press Brave Bird for example

 

[4G3NT CROISSANT]

What are people's thoughts on Ape? I'm doing my own assessment of it and it feels mixed. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2646722169-lmy9q78vw01gmp14a24drnluhm6sit8pw

 

[Crazeysman]

Gonna be real - i don't really think Annihilape really excentuates any Hazard issue even with Defiant. Fact is - its not even a safe switch-in to brave bird Corv as is compared to something like Aegislash. The nerf to Rage Fist IMO is also HUGE and makes it viable to actually click pivot moves on Annihilape now - as opposed to before where you would want to switch in and out of pivot moves to eventually get that 300 BP rage fist. Same applies to moves like Dragon Tail, which you can also safely click on Annihilape as well. Because of this - I find it much easier to actually pressure annihilape throughout the course of a game & also find that its not nearly as gamebreaking as before. Of course, it is still annoying for bulkier builds to handle with sets like Taunt BU - but conversely, I also feel that bulkier builds have more options to annoy it now. - Clefable (both regular and Mega) are great answers, Brave Bird Corviknight is quite an annoying MU as well, and there are many megas that can annoy it. Fast Encore mons like Maushold can also make it a pain for ape to even click rage fist in the first place. Additionally, if ape doesnt have any rage fist boosts, then bulkier Ghost or Psychics like Aegislash can also be tough for it to muscle through.

One annoyance that I personally have is that Annihilape and Gambit are kinda annoying to answer together with Corviknight. I largely find ID + BP to be the best Corv set for my money because it can easily reverse sweep, but Ape can make this tactic annoying to pull off. However, this isn't necessarily a bad thing and I feel Corv can adapt with other sets like Bulk Up Brave Bird or Body Press Brave Bird for example

Click to collapse...

I’ve played around with a brave bird, body press, roost, ID set, running orca berry for fire types that might try to force me out.

Limited success as i lose a slow pivot in the process and a Defog user. Went well into annihilape sometimes provided I predict the taunt or bulk up, and kingambit runs away from corv most of the time anyway, especially if it’s ID.