Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

[Moisture99]

The SP is 0.5% remark I made back then was me assuming it was universal after I ran a couple of calcs; I realized that much later after saying it & honestly don't know why I didn't check it for that Rai interaction before posting. That much is honestly deserved. Just blatant stupidity on my part.



Ever since, though, I ran independent calcs to make sure I wasn't providing flat-out wrong numbers, which is what I did for every calc I gave Sword? Granted, I used lv. 100 tiers instead of the 50 v 50 for champ, so the numbers are slightly off; it's not a dramatic difference. The Annihilape I use alternates between Max Atk & Speed or Max Atk + Max Spdf

"HP + Defense Clef hits for 54% at most with Moonblast. Ape hits for 33.5 - 39.5% at 1 rage fist stack"

Calcs:

32 Atk Annihilape Rage Fist vs. 32 HP / 32+ Def Clefable: 69-82 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 53.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Annihilape: 168-198 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I ran every calc I stated before posting; which did I get wrong?

Regarding "pokemon without recovery being bad into stall, where many good stallbreakers like Hisuian Samurott don't have access to recover," I was calling out the irony of the hazard attrition bias Harris brought up, considering the Pokemon he listed couldn't heal off the damage. If their point was that Annihilape is comparatively worse into stall, purely off an attrition war, it didn't make sense how Pokemon without any attrition were better into said attrition game, not that lack of recovery in general made them worse (I also conceded there are capable breakers outside of Ape like H. Rott in the follow-up post).

"Annihilape needs to not be banned to prevent stall from being too good is also a slippery slope fallacy, which itself doesn't really have much of a place in tiering discussion. (Along with the strange assumption that... game mechanics need to be changed to appropriately tier stall?)"

Refers to: "It's not me being confident enough to say the mons presented in this current doc are the sole thing keeping stall in check, but rather cautioning as a whole that banning too much power risks stall prevalence; thus, "Annihilape should be preserved to prevent Stall from dominating."...I believe Ape is tame enough not to interfere with the rest of the metagame, but capable enough to be an anti-metum to players who want an easier time against fat archetypes." But you're right that my thoughts on it could be ignorant; it's all just a perspective I had, at the end of the day.

"Stall is difficult to tier against without fundamentally changing game mechanics"

Mainly refers to things like the item clause & the PP revamps. It is more an acknowledgment of a theoretical boundary where standard tiering could be insufficient to fix it without causing collateral damage to the tier's infrastructure. I can see how this was said in poor taste though. As you said, "it doesn't really have much of a place in tiering discussion"

"and it kind of can't be avoided that the way you speak falls into a lot of chatgpt-esque tropes, with quotes like "It's not just one priority user; it's the aggregate."

I use the Grammarly extension religiously; it could mostly be that, if anything, lmao. All that being said, I truly appreciate everyone's feedback on the matter. And you all could be right; I might simply be too green to be writing these dissertations about competitive Pokémon. I don't typically climb any higher than early top 500 before jumping on a new account & the last thing I want to do is be a poor contributor to a community. I used to create similar content on other games as a guide maker & video essayist, and wanted to scratch that itch on a new game now that it's been some time, but it might be too early for that by the looks of it.

Click to collapse...

bro the italics are taking me out, this has to be the most unserious metagame thread on this site

Honestly if you just dropped those, it would help a lot with readability lol

Anyway, annihilape is chill people trust me use clefable, brave bird corv, burn it or phaze it. Even if that's not good enough? We (yes we) are ALL offensemaxxers at heart, so just play a more socially acceptable playstyle!!! Mons was NOT meant to go for more than 30 turns.

 

[harriss2205]

bro the italics are taking me out, this has to be the most unserious metagame thread on this site

Honestly if you just dropped those, it would help a lot with readability lol

Anyway, annihilape is chill people trust me use clefable, brave bird corv, burn it or phaze it. Even if that's not good enough? We (yes we) are ALL offensemaxxers at heart, so just play a more socially acceptable playstyle!!! Mons was NOT meant to go for more than 30 turns.

Click to collapse...

Just finished my 219 turn stall v stall matchup feeling blessed 100 100 100

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I've found particular success in using Sp. Def M-Chesnaught as of lately, since it has a couple of tricks up its sleeve to make it a reasonable pick for some teams in the current meta despite it being extremely threatened by the dominance of flying types such as Corv, and that dumb pelican.

View attachment 845572

Chesnaught @ Chesnaughtite
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 50
EVs: 32 HP / 32 SpD / 2 Spe
Careful Nature
- Body Press
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Iron Defense / Spikes

Its gargantuan Defense allows it to stomach Rain-boosted Water type attacks from the likes of M-Swampert and Basculegion like its nothing, while also tanking their coverage options.

32 Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught-Mega: 60-72 (30.7 - 36.9%) -- 61.8% chance to 3HKO

Going full SpDef allows Ches to become a pretty reliable M-Raichu Y check, since Bulletproof grants it immunity to both Zap Cannon and Focus Blast, and will only fear Alluring Voice.
However, this thing is capabable of stomaching some of these hits for less than half. Here's the calc:

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Alluring Voice vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Chesnaught-Mega: 70-84 (35.8 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Alluring Voice vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Chesnaught-Mega: 70-84 (35.8 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Alluring Voice vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Chesnaught-Mega: 70-84 (35.8 - 43%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes

(You get the picture)


In addition to this, M-Ches can be used to threaten out common Dark types like Hamurott and Gambit, while also being capable of checking some more miscelaneous threats like Aegislash, tanking all mixed Aegi's options while being able to stomach a +2 Spell Tag Boosted Adamant Poltergeist from full (crazy considering it is neutral and uninvested), firing back with Knock Off once it is on Blade form for a kill.

Hope some of you find this info useful and give the big C a try.

Click to collapse...

I do think this mon def pretty underrated but you def have to build around it

It will also benefit more from mons returning that it can deal with well, because it can deal with some mons that aren't even in the game yet like zamazenta-h and ursaluna for instance. I think m-ches + hamurott seems like a cool core honestly. Or gambit + m ches.

I don't think banning hamurott is necessarily the right move here, because that is almost a guarantee that mega phox will be more of an issue.

 

[bumboclaat]

Please stop with the one liners. Other moderators have already mentioned the issues with the quality of this thread.

 

[harriss2205]

I do think this mon def pretty underrated but you def have to build around it

It will also benefit more from mons returning that it can deal with well, because it can deal with some mons that aren't even in the game yet like zamazenta-h and ursaluna for instance. I think m-ches + hamurott seems like a cool core honestly. Or gambit + m ches.

I don't think banning hamurott is necessarily the right move here, because that is almost a guarantee that mega phox will be more of an issue.

Click to collapse...

I can second how important it is to build around MNaut. I really like it, but its got its fair share of weaknesses that require a lot of time in the builder.

Most sets end up running one attack, which is usually always body press, so he's completely fodder when it comes to Annihilape and Dragapult. I've tried roar to give him the opportunity to phaze, but it feels like there's nothing you can afford to miss. The BU-Taunt Annihilape sets especially shut this down for obvious reasons. The big demon I struggle with is SD Aegislash, bc finding a poltergeist switch in at +2 is *so* hard.

Re: Rain Teams, he's pretty solid. He walls Swampert and Basc, as the original message said, but he can't actually come in on pelipper for fear of hurricane, and if he's not kept on *very* high health he can't come in on archaludon. I think an understated part of how oppressive rain can be is how much rain's "good counters" depend on having high health to begin with. Mega Venusaur and Mega Chesnaught can both shut down one rain attacker, but in a team with three, its a different story.

Tl;Dr: I love mega naut, but I find him rough to run

 

[Kallum]

I wish we had a format of national dex with za content and champions buffs

Click to collapse...

Its a weird thing that NatDex isnt adding the new megas added with Champs updates, like even ignoring the mechanics changes, adding the new megas seems like a general net positive, even if they gotta ban a few to ubers the overall addition of megas like Mega Meganium, Staraptor, Frosslas, Starmie and Raichu X/Y could bring new life and strategies to National Dex.

Only thought I'd have that the reason they wont for now is cause it would hurt if not almost kill Champs OU because its main appeal is using the new megas (and old megas with new buffs).

 

[Zyro Pegasi Thunder]

Its a weird thing that NatDex isnt adding the new megas added with Champs updates, like even ignoring the mechanics changes, adding the new megas seems like a general net positive, even if they gotta ban a few to ubers the overall addition of megas like Mega Meganium, Staraptor, Frosslas, Starmie and Raichu X/Y could bring new life and strategies to National Dex.

Only thought I'd have that the reason they wont for now is cause it would hurt if not almost kill Champs OU because its main appeal is using the new megas (and old megas with new buffs).

Click to collapse...

Actually their main reason to not establish champions ND OU between gen 9 ND OU and future gen 10 ND OU is basically avoid unnecessary work you know they cannot pick their favorite about what should and should not be implemented in SV ND OU so they must go for all and declare SV as an older generation to establish Champions ND OU, almost 1.5 year before WW ND OU, which is actually kind of short time if think about on scale of generation, and between 1.5 year they must establish everything about Champions ND OU, new forums and other thread and basically too much work for something which is going to be replaced within 1.5 year anyways so all new content of champions will be considered again in WW and not now but One potential complication is what happens if WW doesn't include Mega Evolution as a battle mechanic. In a Discord conversation, I was told that Z-A Mega Evolutions could end up being treated similarly to forms like Shadow Lugia or Primal Dialga and therefore not be implemented into National Dex. However, as far as I'm aware, this hasn't been announced as official policy, so we'll have to wait and see what the National Dex leadership decides when WW arrives.

 

[harriss2205]

What do you guys think of Serperior?

I've seen people playing it on the ladder as a support pokemon, the classic 'sub/seed' style for which it earned its fame, but I've been using mine as a scarf attacker and have so far found a lot of success with it:

Serperior @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Level: 50
EVs: 2 Atk / 32 SpA / 32 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Knock Off
- Dragon Pulse

This is the set I'm running, if anyone's curious.

Its very vulnerable to kingambit, toxapex and archaludon, which I think will be a major bottleneck on its efficiency in the tier. Teams with it are going to require proactive strategies to remove those pokemon, so it kinda sucks to build around archaludon and rain. I'm running mine with hamurott spikes and mega-delphox for a fire water grass core. I've not found anything *so far* which they can't break through, but there's been some close calls and I'm quite low on the ladder. That being said, I've been surprised by the amount of windows I've found to just run away with games against the frail, offensive teams that dominate the middle of the ladder.

 

[Crazeysman]

What do you guys think of Serperior?

I've seen people playing it on the ladder as a support pokemon, the classic 'sub/seed' style for which it earned its fame, but I've been using mine as a scarf attacker and have so far found a lot of success with it:

Serperior @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Level: 50
EVs: 2 Atk / 32 SpA / 32 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Knock Off
- Dragon Pulse

This is the set I'm running, if anyone's curious.

It’s very vulnerable to kingambit, toxapex and archaludon, which I think will be a major bottleneck on its efficiency in the tier. Teams with it are going to require proactive strategies to remove those pokemon, so it kinda sucks to build around archaludon and rain. I'm running mine with hamurott spikes and mega-delphox for a fire water grass core. I've not found anything *so far* which they can't break through, but there's been some close calls and I'm quite low on the ladder. That being said, I've been surprised by the amount of windows I've found to just run away with games against the frail, offensive teams that dominate the middle of the ladder.

Click to collapse...

I played against the scarf variant this morning, it’s strong provided you manage to kill all your checks and your opponent doesn’t realize the set (I didn’t) I don’t see Serperior very much so I expected sub seed but this set should be decent speed control. Coverage will always be an issue, especially against bulky megas, mons like mega dragaluge or mega meganium who will shrug off those leafstorms.

Iike you said most rain teams are a problem even for your phox hammrott core, especially if overquill and archaludon are on the same team. Both have resists or immunities to the core’s stabs, overquill becomes faster than serperior and phox in the rain and shrugs off phox’s fire attacks. I guess H Sammy can break through if it has sacred sword but even with no Defensive investment archaludon lives one sacred sword, even with adamant. This is not including the speed tie, so yeah will definitely need a dedicated archaludon answer especially if it’s under rain.

Sacred sword interaction:

32+ Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 120-142 (72.7 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

phox can 100% break through but with focus blast but that generally matches up poorly into rain teams and you still have miss chance, and your throughly screwed if it’s a sash or scarf variant.

All the more reason not to like archaludon. Weather control will be very important to beat the rain matchup. I’ve used Sitrus berry g king to come in on archaludon, reset the weather and with the berry it’s able to do it at least twice in a match. Also helps with the toxapex matchup if you run future sight to keep it out. Try it out maybe it might work for you

 

[harriss2205]

I played against the scarf variant this morning, it’s strong provided you manage to kill all your checks and your opponent doesn’t realize the set (I didn’t) I don’t see Serperior very much so I expected sub seed but this set should be decent speed control. Coverage will always be an issue, especially against bulky megas, mons like mega dragaluge or mega meganium who will shrug off those leafstorms.

Iike you said most rain teams are a problem even for your phox hammrott core, especially if overquill and archaludon are on the same team. Both have resists or immunities to the core’s stabs, overquill becomes faster than serperior and phox in the rain and shrugs off phox’s fire attacks. I guess H Sammy can break through if it has sacred sword but even with no Defensive investment archaludon lives one sacred sword, even with adamant. This is not including the speed tie, so yeah will definitely need a dedicated archaludon answer especially if it’s under rain.

Sacred sword interaction:

32+ Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 120-142 (72.7 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

phox can 100% break through but with focus blast but that generally matches up poorly into rain teams and you still have miss chance, and your throughly screwed if it’s a sash or scarf variant.

All the more reason not to like archaludon. Weather control will be very important to beat the rain matchup. I’ve used Sitrus berry g king to come in on archaludon, reset the weather and with the berry it’s able to do it at least twice in a match. Also helps with the toxapex matchup if you run future sight to keep it out. Try it out maybe it might work for you

Click to collapse...

Hey man, I think it might have been me you played against. I've seen you on the ladder a couple of times.

I've tried a few different sets to get around archaludon but its honestly so difficult to answer. At the moment, I'm running Excadrill and Annihilape, who have a bit of offensive pressure into him.

To pivot to a broader point, I think that serperior represents a nice niche in the metagame as a counter to offense. So far, I've been consistently able to find ways to get her in and to push through weakened cores. The scarf variant can probably find a home on any team with sufficient ways to chip in Corviknight and the other bulky steel types, so I predict that it'll be viable in bulky offense and hyper offense cores. Corviknight is its big enemy. Pressure ruins it's sweeping potential.

Thanks for the idea to run glowking, I'm currently looking to build a new team with it.

 

[swordisbored]

Now that I've gotten reqs for the suspect you guys should also do I can now address the results of the Champions OU Survey. For a few days now it has been sitting at a nice looking 65 responses so I think now is a good time to look at the results. 65 by the way?! Like, that's a pretty insane number.

I'll address the results of both of these at once and also comment on how funny I think it is that neither reached a 10 though I definitely understand it with the problems in the tier currently with rain being a major one along with powerful megas and faces people are tired of seeing like Corviknight, Hisuian Samurott and Annihilape who can seem like they almost run the tier.

When it came to the answers regarding rain it went about just as I expected with the majority wanting action on Damp Rock whilst not many cared for action against Mega Swampert, a clear majority showing that people believe Damp Rock is the problem. A few of the custom responses are interesting with ideas to ban Archaludon or even Pelipper.

Annihilape is incredibly split and I get it, a Pokémon who I believe is restrictive in builder and in-game if you're running a more balanced team but if not ends up being kind of ignorable.

Mega Metagross, as expected, people don't really care for. You honestly don't see it much and it is a victim to the metagame as it stands. Calling for action on it from the few who did makes sense though with its ability to 2HKO most of the tier if it chooses the correct moves with great typing, ability, power, bulk and speed.

A perfect 50/50 between wanting to take action and not wanting to. Isn't it beautiful? This definitely makes sense and I think is entirely dependant on the teams that people use much like Annihilape. After getting reqs for the suspect I saw this Pokémon more than ever and was lucky enough to mainly be using Mega Dragalge + Hippowdon in most of my matchups into it with my other team having a 32 Adamant Attack Black Glasses Sucker punch in the back. Mega Raichu Y is honestly pretty disgusting with no switchin being free with powerful coverage moves and a guaranteed paralysis or guaranteed momentum from Volt Switch with great speed and power with it mainly being balanced from being so weak to priority.

The majority of people wanting action on Hisuian Samurott makes sense as it forces progress and can feel almost impossible to safely answer with its set diversity.

Interesting to look at. My favourite response is probably "Stop banning fucking everything". Some cool responses though and these were a fun read, a lot of good ideas.

This post isn't a super comprehensive one and mainly just shares the results with the cause of this being because it is late at night and for the fact that I've discussed all of the Pokémon before more thoroughly in this post which you should check out if you haven't:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-ou-metagame-discussion.3780363/post-11055672

I think at this point I've addressed Damp Rock in about four different posts too.

 

[Crazeysman]

Now that I've gotten reqs for the suspect you guys should also do I can now address the results of the Champions OU Survey. For a few days now it has been sitting at a nice looking 65 responses so I think now is a good time to look at the results. 65 by the way?! Like, that's a pretty insane number.

View attachment 847027

I'll address the results of both of these at once and also comment on how funny I think it is that neither reached a 10 though I definitely understand it with the problems in the tier currently with rain being a major one along with powerful megas and faces people are tired of seeing like Corviknight, Hisuian Samurott and Annihilape who can seem like they almost run the tier.

View attachment 847035

When it came to the answers regarding rain it went about just as I expected with the majority wanting action on Damp Rock whilst not many cared for action against Mega Swampert, a clear majority showing that people believe Damp Rock is the problem. A few of the custom responses are interesting with ideas to ban Archaludon or even Pelipper.

View attachment 847036

Annihilape is incredibly split and I get it, a Pokémon who I believe is restrictive in builder and in-game if you're running a more balanced team but if not ends up being kind of ignorable.

View attachment 847037

Mega Metagross, as expected, people don't really care for. You honestly don't see it much and it is a victim to the metagame as it stands. Calling for action on it from the few who did makes sense though with its ability to 2HKO most of the tier if it chooses the correct moves with great typing, ability, power, bulk and speed.

View attachment 847038

A perfect 50/50 between wanting to take action and not wanting to. Isn't it beautiful? This definitely makes sense and I think is entirely dependant on the teams that people use much like Annihilape. After getting reqs for the suspect I saw this Pokémon more than ever and was lucky enough to mainly be using Mega Dragalge + Hippowdon in most of my matchups into it with my other team having a 32 Adamant Attack Black Glasses Sucker punch in the back. Mega Raichu Y is honestly pretty disgusting with no switchin being free with powerful coverage moves and a guaranteed paralysis or guaranteed momentum from Volt Switch with great speed and power with it mainly being balanced from being so weak to priority.

View attachment 847039

The majority of people wanting action on Hisuian Samurott makes sense as it forces progress and can feel almost impossible to safely answer with its set diversity.

View attachment 847041

Interesting to look at. My favourite response is probably "Stop banning fucking everything". Some cool responses though and these were a fun read, a lot of good ideas.

This post isn't a super comprehensive one and mainly just shares the results with the cause of this being because it is late at night and for the fact that I've discussed all of the Pokémon before more thoroughly in this post which you should check out if you haven't:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-ou-metagame-discussion.3780363/post-11055672

I think at this point I've addressed Damp Rock in about four different posts too.

Click to collapse...

Wow there is a ton to digest from the poll

I wanted to touch on annihilape and mega raichu Y, it seems to me the 50/50 split has to do with the team archetypes being played.

I suspect perhaps maybe close to 50% of teams in reg M-B are balance or semi-balance that leans more towards balance while the other 50 are hyper-offesnive teams or semi balance that lean more towards hyper offensive.

Like you said raichu tends to match poorly into balance teams with notable mons such as hippowdon, mega dragaluge, mega meganium, slowking G, venesuar, sinista etc. and tend to feature bulkier/ sash mons with devastating priority such as king gambit.

These teams are also the one who will struggle against annihilape, whereas super offensive teams will blow past it with little trouble.

I wonder if a team archetype poll were to be included with this poll would the results line up at at all with the votes between annihilape and mega raichu Y.

 

[Zyro Pegasi Thunder]

Wow there is a ton to digest from the poll

I wanted to touch on annihilape and mega raichu Y, it seems to me the 50/50 split has to do with the team archetypes being played.

I suspect perhaps maybe close to 50% of teams in reg M-B are balance or semi-balance that leans more towards balance while the other 50 are hyper-offesnive teams or semi balance that lean more towards hyper offensive.

Like you said raichu tends to match poorly into balance teams with notable mons such as hippowdon, mega dragaluge, mega meganium, slowking G, venesuar, sinista etc. and tend to feature bulkier/ sash mons with devastating priority such as king gambit.

These teams are also the one who will struggle against annihilape, whereas super offensive teams will blow past it with little trouble.

I wonder if a team archetype poll were to be included with this poll would the results line up at at all with the votes between annihilape and mega raichu Y.

Click to collapse...

There are seven main archetype excluding weathers terrains and rooms, being hyper offense chain of constantly sacrificing for momentum with combination of set up sweeper as hyper offense, with little to no defensive glue and strong fast and frail attacker putting constant offensive pressure as offense, made up of bulky attacker trying to take a hit then strike back to end matches pressuring with offensive pressure and well as bulk bulky offense, all rounded balance, leaning towards walls with a progress making core fat, one for progress rest to outlast opponent with bulk and healing semi-stall and 6 walls covering each other weakness while chipping opponent by a bit stall

 

[mega raichu Y fan]

wheres mega raichu Y in viability rankings :(

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

wheres mega raichu Y in viability rankings :(

Click to collapse...

The VR hasn't been updated to accommodate for M-B Pokemon, of which Raichu Y is one.

 

[CaioXLive12]

Now that Ghold is gone, i think it's time to revisit old issues, specifically Light Clay. As mentioned in the tiering updates:

"Light Clay ended up being unsurprisingly centralising with all of the powerful boost sweepers along with the introduction of Gholdengo to stop any attempts to Defog them away."

Since one of the primary reasons to keep Light Clay off the meta was Gholdengo stopping any attempts to Defog. Well, now we should take a look at it since ghold is no longer there.

Yes, there is a problem with Annihilape Defiant, but as mentioned in other posts, the problem seems more around Annihilape, and at this point any form of Defog stopping in this meta. Because not only screens but hazards are very centralizing.

And I don't see a particular reason to ban light clay, as if a single pair of screens can make some mon nearly unstoppable, that mon already seems more like a problem in itself.

 

[swordisbored]

Now that Ghold is gone, i think it's time to revisit old issues, specifically Light Clay. As mentioned in the tiering updates:

"Light Clay ended up being unsurprisingly centralising with all of the powerful boost sweepers along with the introduction of Gholdengo to stop any attempts to Defog them away."

Since one of the primary reasons to keep Light Clay off the meta was Gholdengo stopping any attempts to Defog. Well, now we should take a look at it since ghold is no longer there.

Yes, there is a problem with Annihilape Defiant, but as mentioned in other posts, the problem seems more around Annihilape, and at this point any form of Defog stopping in this meta. Because not only screens but hazards are very centralizing.

And I don't see a particular reason to ban light clay, as if a single pair of screens can make some mon nearly unstoppable, that mon already seems more like a problem in itself.

Click to collapse...

Since I've seen the point of Gholdengo being banned meaning Light Clay is balanced due to now being able to Defog it away so much I'd like to make a definitive post on it and talk about why the Council aren't going to unban it, at least currently in Regulation M-B.

I'd like to state first of all that Defog isn't a counter to screens and this is evident from just looking at our roster of Defog users in the tier which includes Corviknight, Scizor and a few niche guys if you're daring. Not only can Annihilape with Defiant come in on these Pokémon and set up in front of them and heal all of its HP back from the Attack boosts it racked up but in fact ANY Pokémon on a screens team can do this. Notice how Corviknight, especially with the free turn from using Defog, is basically set up fodder to common screens Pokémon like Aegislash, Ceruledge and Dragonite (With Fire Punch) along with Encore users like Hisuian Samurott. To make it even worse, a lot of the best Pokémon on screens have access to Taunt and will run it for other reasons but will end up ruining your dreams of using Defog in an instant.

The above point is true for most tiers since SV, Defog distribution is currently given to only passive Pokémon and the offensive threats can take advantage of the free turn easily. Specifically for SV though I just want anyone who believes Light Clay should be unbanned to look at the top Pokémon and with that you'll realise that most of them function extremely effectively under screens. Garchomp, Hisuian Samurott, Annihilape, Aegislash and Ceruledge are some of the strongest Pokémon in the tier and all benefit from screens. Just look at the VR and almost everything you see at the top is benefitting from screens, this is an extremely unique case and specific to Champions OU and just encourages a metagame defined by offense. Much like any tier too, as if this didn't sound frightening enough, there are sweepers who can win entire games in certain circumstances quite easily with screens up such as Mega Barabaracle and Volcarona. Pokémon which, despite being decent on other archetypes, absolutely EXCELL when screens are up to a majorly uncompetitive degree.

Good players in the tier especially but even your more average ones as proven by my survey want action, they want the tier to be less offensive and unbanning Light Clay would just be taking a step so far back that it is almost comical.

Edit: Forgot to mention these but Mega Staraptor is absurdly broken behind screens and is a Pokémon you absolutely don't want to Defog on, allowing it free Defense boosts from Close Combat and an Evasion boost. Also, even though Defog isn't a good counter, if the opponent are in a situation where they absolutely need screens up to win or something Hatterene (Which has found itself on many screens teams) bounces back Defog and keeps the screens up and then can set up for a Calm Mind win.

 

[Moyashi]

Now that Ghold is gone, i think it's time to revisit old issues, specifically Light Clay. As mentioned in the tiering updates:

"Light Clay ended up being unsurprisingly centralising with all of the powerful boost sweepers along with the introduction of Gholdengo to stop any attempts to Defog them away."

Since one of the primary reasons to keep Light Clay off the meta was Gholdengo stopping any attempts to Defog. Well, now we should take a look at it since ghold is no longer there.

Yes, there is a problem with Annihilape Defiant, but as mentioned in other posts, the problem seems more around Annihilape, and at this point any form of Defog stopping in this meta. Because not only screens but hazards are very centralizing.

And I don't see a particular reason to ban light clay, as if a single pair of screens can make some mon nearly unstoppable, that mon already seems more like a problem in itself.

Click to collapse...

This is a weird post if I may be honest. The tier already had an issue with so much offense overloading the builder, and you want… to add more?

It’s incredibly easy for HO teams to have anti Defog tactics beyond just relying on Gholdengo, and our sole defoggers are either niche (being generous, such as base Scizor), or incredibly passive into HO (corv).

There are not nearly enough tools for dealing with 8 turns of screens that make them reasonable or balanced in this current metagame and just encourage heavy cheese or just a super offense/HO heavy metagame and limiting building variety and options. It’s not really healthy as is right now.

 

[Crazeysman]

Now that Ghold is gone, i think it's time to revisit old issues, specifically Light Clay. As mentioned in the tiering updates:

"Light Clay ended up being unsurprisingly centralising with all of the powerful boost sweepers along with the introduction of Gholdengo to stop any attempts to Defog them away."

Since one of the primary reasons to keep Light Clay off the meta was Gholdengo stopping any attempts to Defog. Well, now we should take a look at it since ghold is no longer there.

Yes, there is a problem with Annihilape Defiant, but as mentioned in other posts, the problem seems more around Annihilape, and at this point any form of Defog stopping in this meta. Because not only screens but hazards are very centralizing.

And I don't see a particular reason to ban light clay, as if a single pair of screens can make some mon nearly unstoppable, that mon already seems more like a problem in itself.

Click to collapse...

Just a quick point to add but technically light clay was banned before ghold was even if it was pretty much a day or two apart. Together ghold and light clay are a problem but each on their own had their own centralizing issues that warranted a ban of each.

light clay specifically for the logenivity it gave ti screens teams with powerful set up attackers and its synergy with defiant/contrary attackers.

Ghold for its ability, again giving longevity to screens teams via its immunity to all forms of hazard removal (- tidy up) , in a metagame that has no heavy duty boots.

They both contribute to the same issue but separately, if light clays ban was because of gholdengo they likely would have just banned them at the same time, or more than likely just banned gholdengo.

 

[mega raichu Y fan]

yea i get why mega Raichu Y isnt viable its very bad u cant even set up one nasty plot before dying

 

[Kallum]

yea i get why mega Raichu Y isnt viable its very bad u cant even set up one nasty plot before dying

Click to collapse...

… You just click attacks, you dont need nasty plot when your main stab is 120 BP off of 160 SpA

 

[CaptainYousef]

yea i get why mega Raichu Y isnt viable its very bad u cant even set up one nasty plot before dying

Click to collapse...

U just click attacks and pivot with volt switch no need to set up with 160 sp atk lol ur just being greedy at that point

 

[Crazeysman]

yea i get why mega Raichu Y isnt viable its very bad u cant even set up one nasty plot before dying

Click to collapse...

Just gonna leave this for you,

Raichu vs fully invested gking

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Zap Cannon vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 81-96 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

With hazards

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Zap Cannon vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 81-96 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

A handful of mons that aren’t immune to zap cannon can switch into raichu Y, and two of the main ones are megas, with very basic hazard support raichu can run away with games, anything you can’t pressure without nasty plot should probably tell you that you need to pivot. Lucky for you, raichu Y has the strongest V switch in the game currently and that also does half to most other mons.

 

[CaioXLive12]

Since I've seen the point of Gholdengo being banned meaning Light Clay is balanced due to now being able to Defog it away so much I'd like to make a definitive post on it and talk about why the Council aren't going to unban it, at least currently in Regulation M-B.

I'd like to state first of all that Defog isn't a counter to screens and this is evident from just looking at our roster of Defog users in the tier which includes Corviknight, Scizor and a few niche guys if you're daring. Not only can Annihilape with Defiant come in on these Pokémon and set up in front of them and heal all of its HP back from the Attack boosts it racked up but in fact ANY Pokémon on a screens team can do this. Notice how Corviknight, especially with the free turn from using Defog, is basically set up fodder to common screens Pokémon like Aegislash, Ceruledge and Dragonite (With Fire Punch) along with Encore users like Hisuian Samurott. To make it even worse, a lot of the best Pokémon on screens have access to Taunt and will run it for other reasons but will end up ruining your dreams of using Defog in an instant.

The above point is true for most tiers since SV, Defog distribution is currently given to only passive Pokémon and the offensive threats can take advantage of the free turn easily. Specifically for SV though I just want anyone who believes Light Clay should be unbanned to look at the top Pokémon and with that you'll realise that most of them function extremely effectively under screens. Garchomp, Hisuian Samurott, Annihilape, Aegislash and Ceruledge are some of the strongest Pokémon in the tier and all benefit from screens. Just look at the VR and almost everything you see at the top is benefitting from screens, this is an extremely unique case and specific to Champions OU and just encourages a metagame defined by offense. Much like any tier too, as if this didn't sound frightening enough, there are sweepers who can win entire games in certain circumstances quite easily with screens up such as Mega Barabaracle and Volcarona. Pokémon which, despite being decent on other archetypes, absolutely EXCELL when screens are up to a majorly uncompetitive degree.

Good players in the tier especially but even your more average ones as proven by my survey want action, they want the tier to be less offensive and unbanning Light Clay would just be taking a step so far back that it is almost comical.

Edit: Forgot to mention these but Mega Staraptor is absurdly broken behind screens and is a Pokémon you absolutely don't want to Defog on, allowing it free Defense boosts from Close Combat and an Evasion boost. Also, even though Defog isn't a good counter, if the opponent are in a situation where they absolutely need screens up to win or something Hatterene (Which has found itself on many screens teams) bounces back Defog and keeps the screens up and then can set up for a Calm Mind win.

Click to collapse...

Again, if you believe a Pokémon is broken with screens, that Pokémon is likely a problem in itself. With Staraptor it's no different. Okay, you don't wanna defog in front of Staraptor because of contrary. But screens isn't the only way to leave you into an awkward position if you do not defog, hazard stacking being the alternative.

We also need to take into account we have now other ways to take screens down in Psychic Fangs. And if screens was a problem, people would be using Aurora Veil Ninetales right now despite no Light Clay as you still have 3 turns to set up and given how fast paced the meta is, according to your post, 3 turns is a lot.
.
Also, unfortunately the philosophy of making the tier "less offensive" i think unless we ban half the tier, it won't be possible. Game freak is making sure defensive play is on the ground, never to be ressurected again, as evidenced by Gen 9 nerfs, most of which were carried over to Champions. Like it or not, the meta will be headed in a offensive way.

 

[Crazeysman]

Again, if you believe a Pokémon is broken with screens, that Pokémon is likely a problem in itself. With Staraptor it's no different. Okay, you don't wanna defog in front of Staraptor because of contrary. But screens isn't the only way to leave you into an awkward position if you do not defog, hazard stacking being the alternative.

We also need to take into account we have now other ways to take screens down in Psychic Fangs. And if screens was a problem, people would be using Aurora Veil Ninetales right now despite no Light Clay as you still have 3 turns to set up and given how fast paced the meta is, according to your post, 3 turns is a lot.
.
Also, unfortunately the philosophy of making the tier "less offensive" i think unless we ban half the tier, it won't be possible. Game freak is making sure defensive play is on the ground, never to be ressurected again, as evidenced by Gen 9 nerfs, most of which were carried over to Champions. Like it or not, the meta will be headed in an offensive way.

Click to collapse...

1. You don’t want to defog into staraptor, but in front of mons like staraptor you will just have to or don’t at all. You lose in both situations, staraptor gets an evasion boost, or it continues to set up and get bulkier turn by turn even if mons that should be it’s check come out. Compare this to hazards which are annoying but don’t create this lose, lose situation. I can calculate and plan around hazards anticipating the damage I’ll take to still make progress even if I cant clear them right away. Defog is the only utility option available that can clear screens.

2. Yes psychic fangs and brick break exists but it falls apart when you realize what your losing to run these moves. For starters not many of the Pokemon that currently have access to this move actually have the attack to use it offensively nor the tying to gain stab on it. Why not use it as coverage? Because those same mons will just happen to have stronger coverage options or just prefer to run their stabs over it. Take for instance ageisgalsh, cereludge, blazeikin and annihilape. All are mons with access to brick break, but have access to stronger moves in drain punch, close combat, sacred sword, all vital to their playstyle and securing kills. Not only that, some of the best screen setters in the game right now or at least when light clay was available grimmsnarl, dragapult, and ninetails A are either immune/resistant to these moves or now have a much better matchup into these mons because they are using weaker coverage. Would you want a metagame where your essentially forced to run weaker moves to deal with a specific threat to your teams every match, not even including dealing with the mons behind the screens.

3. No gamefreak is not making defensive play go to the ground, champions is meant to be a competitive VGC game which plays completely different from showdown champions OU, with its own meta. Even its 3v3 singles metagame plays different. Nothing wrong with an offensive meta either; the whole point of the game is to deal damage to your opponents Pokemon and knock them out. The light clay screens goes beyond being “offensive” and becomes absolutely necessary to win games, as winning games against teams behind 8 turns of screens is extremely difficult, and simply uncompetitive. Forcing your opponent to respond or not to respond a certain way or play a specific type of team because you lead with a light clay screens setter and now have 8 turns to swap and switch between 5 offensive setters who will abuse it is simply uncompetitive, especially in a format as fresh and champions with the item clause and a much smaller pool of Pokemon.