SM Needs Tiering Action: Rain

[Ash KetchumGamer]

I find the arguments made by those who consider Rain "broken" quite valid, but I’d like to point out a fact. You probably haven't seen players like Empo, Tricking, and other greats—past and present—struggle to beat Rain. You might argue that they are better than 99% of the site's player base, and they certainly are, but that actually counters the idea that just “any” random player using Rain can win matches, if you can't beat Rain, then “you” would be the random player. Personally, I’ve never beaten Giannis using rain, he’s always solid against it, and Empo was never weak against it either.
I could be wrong, but I’ve never seen ABR, Finch, Penguino, Soulwind, MCM etc.. talk about this, and they’ve certainly been through it.
so I think there’s something worth exploring there. I know it’s not a universal rule, but most of the people advocating for a ban tend to be relatively newer players, which is cool, and I appreciate that, still, what is the point of changing something like this after ten years, a period during which all the top players have managed to survive and succeed?
Btw, I don't even play SM anymore, except for some occasional tournaments, so it's not like my opinion is just based on personal preference. If something got banned, I simply wouldn't care, though I'd certainly disagree with it.

 

[Ash KetchumGamer]

As you can see, there's a clown who spams Fat in SM, reacting with "haha" to my posts, praying for Rain to get banned. He'll probably brag about beating me in a Bo3, a match I played while taking a dump because I had to leave the house to run errands, during an SM seasonal, which actually contradicts his own point, since I used Rain in the two games he won, which is pretty funny.

 

[Cow]

ash and pikachu retired after 25 years to fight imaginary comments

 

[Ash KetchumGamer]

ash and pikachu retired after 25 years to fight imaginary comments

Click to collapse...

As you can see, another random clown

 

[Maktyum]

Guys lets keep the topic on track please. I understand that we all get passionate about it and so throw little stings sometimes but let’s not go into full wars please.

 

[Cow]

As you can see, another random clown

Click to collapse...

 

[Ash KetchumGamer]

View attachment 847942

Click to collapse...

 

[Ahy Wddicted]

(Sorry for English skills first)
As a sm ladder lover, even though far from competitive and good plays, also not playing mons nowadays

Ban nothing > Ban mana > Ban serp > Ban pikachu

every posting seems reasonable.
I also thought manaphy should’ve deleted since 2018, but changed my mind into ‘still manaphy ban is fair, but it’s fine if it still here’ cause of water-resisting dancers like gyara or dnite and demon Kyu-b, specs lele psyspam etc..

Yeah it’s fine manaphy here i think.
When i wanted to make fat teams and i felt forced to put kart or koko or scarf thunder magnezone or seismitoad + mantine core for manaphy. fuck let’s ban manaphy!

but taunt gyara destroy balance anyway, zardy+tran asw, kyu-b asw, etc

So banning manaphy is good, opposite is fine

Serp is really annoying too and it’s reasonable for ban it since there is no mon in sm ohkoing serp with glare immune..

Sub seed is really annoying too, sometimes it gives us rayquaza sprite illusion and we blame gamefreak for not put u-turn on skarm or celesteela, but still don’t know it’s banworthy or not cause sometimes pidgeot works better than serp. it destroy venusaur, amoonguss, volcarona, and blacephalon shadow ball switch in..

If we have to ban serp then we have to ban kommo asw since it forces us to put fairy mon or soundproof exploud on the builder..
then ban lando, ban zardx, ban zardy, ban lele, ban pex,
Then let’s play sm uu

 

[Ske]

Here’s some teams with Mana & Serp
https://pokepast.es/439ca0c8535bc655 - Put Stuff to Sleep, Abuse Serp +6 Bloom Doom Blows Back Heatrans & Magearnas

https://pokepast.es/6952130b726f5a68 -
Para Hax with Zapdos Para all of Manaphys Answers, Kingdra Outspeeds Scarf Kart which some ppl use to check Rain Toxic Pert Hits PM Everything

Great points from each sides, Tbh Imo ether saying the Metagame is fine rn just stale OR Suspect Testing Both Manaphy and Serperior rn is a pretty safe option compared to just outright Banning something or Banning something like Damp Rock, But I still think removing Manaphy will just make meta worse by making Hyper Offense better and Bulkier Offensive worse because everyone can just spam more Hyper Offense/Semi-Stall without worrying about Manaphy in Rain helping it not lose to Mega Sab Skarm Chansey Toxapex Clefable Weavile teams while also not losing to Screens HO cheese. Those teams in 2018 & Before were terrible for the Metagame & I think unbans would be better for Gen 7 because having more options to build to Combat the threats of Gen 7 seems to be way more practical than removing certain borderline threats because we don’t know how the Meta would react. If we test something like Zygarde for example we can easily just keep it Banned if it’s too much.


Serp has Glare + Sub Seed which makes its Counterplay extremely limited forcing you to play in certain ways that certainly benefit the Serperior player one of my fav mons but I understand the complaints it’s kinda like Zygarde because it Glares its Counters. Grassium-Z Serp is another set that I been using that has done cheap shit like this - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-2513561595-t431bqissdsky6ghb3l8keyyjmuxcw3pw

 

[raffe]

Here’s some teams with Mana & Serp
https://pokepast.es/439ca0c8535bc655 - Put Stuff to Sleep, Abuse Serp +6 Bloom Doom Blows Back Heatrans & Magearnas

https://pokepast.es/6952130b726f5a68 -
Para Hax with Zapdos Para all of Manaphys Answers, Kingdra Outspeeds Scarf Kart which some ppl use to check Rain Toxic Pert Hits PM Everything

Click to collapse...

Lmfao ive seen you send like 20 pastes to gen 7 teams and every time it's secret power rachi or ske rain my GOAT

 

[Lsa]

ban focus blast

 

[Zokuru]

Slower teams can punish Rain heavily if Manaphy is banned and I think that's a good thing. Back in the day Rain had to resort to Aqua Tail Swampert, Z WildCharge or/and Nature's Madness + Taunt Koko, Lele or even CM Split Mag to try to cope with it and it allowed for interesting games both side.

In the current stage, a Manaphy with the good last move (note that this requirement isnt very strict, unless you're facing exactly Shedinja or Pyuku your last move just helps a bit but you will do fine without) or simply a well-played Manaphy will completely dominate the matchup vs slower teams. Some stuff have been tried to help in the Rain MU but those things kind of bet on the Rain user misplaying and/or aren't very good in the grand scheme of things.
Firstly there's Zam, but even tho it's a great Pokemon it wont save you from Manaphy, it's a great answer to Rain if you're using Offense but not in slower teams, also note that Z moves bypass Encore so you can't even do that.
Thunder MTias and LO Modest CM Thunder Clefable, the first coming on Manaphy, the second hoping Manaphy comes on it. There's no need to explain that banking on Clefable to scam the Rain MU isnt a good idea, and Thunder MTias doesn't do much outside of the Rain MU, and it's not even particularely dominating in it, it mostly make your team way worse.
I probably forgot a few techs, I'll just finish with one that actually kinda works, because I think it's a good indicator of Rain being a problem. We've recently seen a spike of QD Volcarona in slow teams, as a sole ""wincondition"", nothing to try to open for it. I've been using Volcarona Stall for a long time myself and I changed from Defog Volcarona to QD also, in a 6 that was built to be good vs Rain at first (At the end it's not really because Manaphy can beat Ferro + CM Unaware Clefable but let's not disgress). So what does QD Volc has to do with Rain you're gonna say. Well, if you can manage to click Quiver Dance when your opponent doesn't have Rain up it's mostly over, they have to send Pelliper mostly, you get the 2nd QD and it's game right there, obviously it's not a perfect plan, good positionning and good teambuilding from the rain user who knows the slight Volc weakness of Rain.

Banning Pelliper, Swampert, Damp Rock, or Drizzle would not be a good thing in my opinion because it's hitting the core of Rain which is more than fine, Swampert is strong, Gren under Rain is pretty good, but those aren't things that are so much harder to beat in average for any style than anything else in the game, you need to prepare for it and it's normal. Manaphy however is close to or completely unbeatable for a large part of playstyle, which I think is unacceptable, not to mention it stays good versus the rest of the game, therefore I think the game would be better if Manaphy was banned.

 

[Drachenkeule]

A lot of players have already wrote most of the important points, so I won't go into every detail and repeat everything. I just want to highlight a few things that I found interesting. It's still interesting how everyone talks about checking Manaphy with bulky dragons or grass-types, pressuring rain with dragons, revenge killing Manaphy with Serperior, Kartana or Tapu Koko, avoiding passive play against it, or simply positioning well around Manaphy.

Rain teams have one of the best priority users in the game, excellent speed control, and incredible wallbreaking with Manaphy and Swampert. Both can easily adapt their sets to beat different cores, as others have already mentioned. There really isn't a safe switch in to Manaphy outside of Mega Latias, and +3 Hydro Vortex in rain blows past almost every resistance. At the same time, your main revenge killers like Kartana, Serperior, or Tapu Koko often struggle to make progress against rain because of Torn, Fero and Pert. Matchups like sun and psyspam can also be improved with Koko Rain. While the metagame has adapted to "counter" rain, rain itself can just as easily adapt to beat those archetypes. Pressuring Manaphy is great in theory, but pressuring Manaphy while also having a solid rain matchup is extremely difficult. In practice, you often need two or even three strong water resistances or win conditions against rain, which is simply too much in a metagame like SM. And your positioning just don´t help if you are simply getting overwhelmed by rain without the right tools. This leads to the situation we already have: preparing for rain often means matchup fishing into several other archetypes. Personally, I think rain is the biggest issue we should address because the combination of pivoting, wallbreaking, and sweeping, together with the lack of strong revenge killing options and limiting sweeping options against rain puts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the builder. Unlike other playstyles you don't just have a specific set or one specific mon to improve the matchup. You have to build entire cores against rain, and even then those can still lose to different rain variants.

Yes, limiting rain or banning Manaphy would shift the metagame, and things like Hyper Offense, sand would probably become stronger. But as I mentioned before, you simply have far more counterplay available than you do against rain. You can either check those teams more reliably, revenge kill them more consistently, or even out offense/sweep them because they don't have the same level of revenge killing, pivoting, wallbreaking or simply cleaning like rain. Weaken rain due to Manaphy, M Swampert, or even Damp Rock ban would make the playstyle much easier to manage while still being relevant. Teams could adapt to the rest of the metagame without using an extreme amount of resources to rain, which requires far more than just running Thunder on Mega Latias

I am also using the text to ping Star, due to the dead SM Council, there is some action required from the Oldgen Council.

 

[Ske]

Slower teams can punish Rain heavily if Manaphy is banned and I think that's a good thing. Back in the day Rain had to resort to Aqua Tail Swampert, Z WildCharge or/and Nature's Madness + Taunt Koko, Lele or even CM Split Mag to try to cope with it and it allowed for interesting games both side.

In the current stage, a Manaphy with the good last move (note that this requirement isnt very strict, unless you're facing exactly Shedinja or Pyuku your last move just helps a bit but you will do fine without) or simply a well-played Manaphy will completely dominate the matchup vs slower teams. Some stuff have been tried to help in the Rain MU but those things kind of bet on the Rain user misplaying and/or aren't very good in the grand scheme of things.
Firstly there's Zam, but even tho it's a great Pokemon it wont save you from Manaphy, it's a great answer to Rain if you're using Offense but not in slower teams, also note that Z moves bypass Encore so you can't even do that.
Thunder MTias and LO Modest CM Thunder Clefable, the first coming on Manaphy, the second hoping Manaphy comes on it. There's no need to explain that banking on Clefable to scam the Rain MU isnt a good idea, and Thunder MTias doesn't do much outside of the Rain MU, and it's not even particularely dominating in it, it mostly make your team way worse.
I probably forgot a few techs, I'll just finish with one that actually kinda works, because I think it's a good indicator of Rain being a problem. We've recently seen a spike of QD Volcarona in slow teams, as a sole ""wincondition"", nothing to try to open for it. I've been using Volcarona Stall for a long time myself and I changed from Defog Volcarona to QD also, in a 6 that was built to be good vs Rain at first (At the end it's not really because Manaphy can beat Ferro + CM Unaware Clefable but let's not disgress). So what does QD Volc has to do with Rain you're gonna say. Well, if you can manage to click Quiver Dance when your opponent doesn't have Rain up it's mostly over, they have to send Pelliper mostly, you get the 2nd QD and it's game right there, obviously it's not a perfect plan, good positionning and good teambuilding from the rain user who knows the slight Volc weakness of Rain.

Banning Pelliper, Swampert, Damp Rock, or Drizzle would not be a good thing in my opinion because it's hitting the core of Rain which is more than fine, Swampert is strong, Gren under Rain is pretty good, but those aren't things that are so much harder to beat in average for any style than anything else in the game, you need to prepare for it and it's normal. Manaphy however is close to or completely unbeatable for a large part of playstyle, which I think is unacceptable, not to mention it stays good versus the rest of the game, therefore I think the game would be better if Manaphy was banned.

Click to collapse...

A lot of players have already wrote most of the important points, so I won't go into every detail and repeat everything. I just want to highlight a few things that I found interesting. It's still interesting how everyone talks about checking Manaphy with bulky dragons or grass-types, pressuring rain with dragons, revenge killing Manaphy with Serperior, Kartana or Tapu Koko, avoiding passive play against it, or simply positioning well around Manaphy.

Rain teams have one of the best priority users in the game, excellent speed control, and incredible wallbreaking with Manaphy and Swampert. Both can easily adapt their sets to beat different cores, as others have already mentioned. There really isn't a safe switch in to Manaphy outside of Mega Latias, and +3 Hydro Vortex in rain blows past almost every resistance. At the same time, your main revenge killers like Kartana, Serperior, or Tapu Koko often struggle to make progress against rain because of Torn, Fero and Pert. Matchups like sun and psyspam can also be improved with Koko Rain. While the metagame has adapted to "counter" rain, rain itself can just as easily adapt to beat those archetypes. Pressuring Manaphy is great in theory, but pressuring Manaphy while also having a solid rain matchup is extremely difficult. In practice, you often need two or even three strong water resistances or win conditions against rain, which is simply too much in a metagame like SM. And your positioning just don´t help if you are simply getting overwhelmed by rain without the right tools. This leads to the situation we already have: preparing for rain often means matchup fishing into several other archetypes. Personally, I think rain is the biggest issue we should address because the combination of pivoting, wallbreaking, and sweeping, together with the lack of strong revenge killing options and limiting sweeping options against rain puts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the builder. Unlike other playstyles you don't just have a specific set or one specific mon to improve the matchup. You have to build entire cores against rain, and even then those can still lose to different rain variants.

Yes, limiting rain or banning Manaphy would shift the metagame, and things like Hyper Offense, sand would probably become stronger. But as I mentioned before, you simply have far more counterplay available than you do against rain. You can either check those teams more reliably, revenge kill them more consistently, or even out offense/sweep them because they don't have the same level of revenge killing, pivoting, wallbreaking or simply cleaning like rain. Weaken rain due to Manaphy, M Swampert, or even Damp Rock would make the playstyle much easier to manage while still being relevant. Teams could adapt to the rest of the metagame without using an extreme amount of resources to rain, which requires far more than just running Thunder on Mega Latias

I am also using the text to ping Star, due to the dead SM Council, there is some action required from the Oldgen Council.

Click to collapse...

Also a lot of yall ain’t play that team when gen 7 was Current Gen Rain was actually much more obnoxious and anoyying during that time because people were just now figuring out how to deal with it… Suspecting it now when meta has already adapted to it seems counterintuitive

I think the combination of Peli Mana And Pert is the reason don’t even think it’s Manaphy by itself at fault if anything because it’s not like it’s doing all of this by itself not even on rain because without Pert or Ash Greninja the pokemon that revenge kill it Pressure the rest of the team way too much, I don’t think a team being spammed means a mon is broken because why don’t we see other Manaphy rains being brought to Counteract when the team has been around since 2018? Most of the time when ppl bring rain it’s because they dont want to think about building and they still want a solid team with neutral matchup which was what I was going for when Yuze asked me to make a Manaphy team I wanted to make a reliable Team with least amount of Bad Matchups for Rain without it becomes much more Mu Fishy and the whole playstyle becomes less consistent and as whole.

(also council if you’re reading this if anything happens just suspect test Pelliper because it nerfs Rain without taking away Rain as a whole and ppl using Politoad would actually be so fucking funny)

 

[cyberacc]

 

[rosesscythes]

SM was the first gen I was ever good at back when it was current gen, and over the past year or so as I’ve cycled through the old gens I play it’s been added back into the rotation. Yet of the gens I play (mostly ladder & roomtours admittedly) it’s currently my least favorite and most stale to me, and in particular I’d welcome a rain nerf and likely an HO nerf to follow it.

To me, MSwampert is actually the biggest problem of rain. Its immediate speed combos with its bulk and power to give it an extreme wealth of options. Manaphy is a problem for sure, but there are a number of Pokemon with good advantages to limit it in the tier - Tapu Koko, Kartana, Serperior, Mega Venusaur, Scarf Bulu, Alola Ninetales, Whip Ferro, and out of rain Chansey & Unaware Clef. Against more offensive teams it’s certainly prone to take more KOs, and it should be accounted for in the builder, but by no means is it as unpredictable as Swampert. Swampert has a consistent ease of setup, be it Substitute or PuP, that lets it both function in Rain and easily after Rain is over. It overwhelms Ferro & Kartana with minimal support from other Rain staples, and can unlike Manaphy & OHKO so much of the offensive metagame with Rain up. The subject of how the tier doesn’t really need Manaphy has been brought up; imho, Swampert has even less of a place sans Rain. To me, if you want to nerf Rain fairly, I think Swampert is the Mon that’s got to go.

But what if HO becomes overwhelming, then? Well, one common denominator is Serperior, but I still struggle to fully believe that it’s busted. I also don’t believe that Tapu Koko is busted, but it shares a common denominator of enabling HO. And they work very adeptly with each other! And also, and perhaps most easy to start with: I think their enabling of Screens might have to go. It undermines how important priority can be to checking those fast threats they enable, and phazing is not common enough in the tier to make up for it otherwise. Both also facilitate their Screens set up easily, from Serp’s Glare to Koko’s Volt/Turn. I wouldn’t even start with Light Clay - I would go so far as to delete Screens.

But these are just my two cents, as a relative returnee’s perspective. I’m sure others with bigger minds have better thoughts, I just wanted to speak.

 

[Ruffles]

I've talked to the upper roa council and they'll work on updating the SM council and also work on some surveys. So that's good news!

Personally speaking, and after reading the entirety of this thread, I think the following are valid ways to go about action:

1. Manaphy ban
This has been a topic of discussion since 2019 and I think it will forever haunt SM, no matter what cyclical iterations it goes through. Manaphy has an asymmetrical existence in SM - it has low usage but its impact on the builder is massive. Rain's winrate is the same between Manaphy and Magearna. This is a quick and easy ban that impacts the tier minimally but can still shift the tier in a positive direction, without meaningfully nerfing rain.

2. Keep Manaphy, Damp Rock / Pelipper suspect test
This was quite popular because many believe Rain is a tad too much but Manaphy is not a problem, and neither will it nerf rain. The first ide ais to suspect damp rock - I think this is actually a very cool option that is probably the smallest way you can nerf rain. We've already seen non-damp rock Pelipper rains; 2 of them just last SPL, and they both won. This would nerf the stronger parts of rain - Greninja & Swampert - without actually taking action towards them.

Another idea is a pelipper suspect test. I'm not gonna lie after I thought about it more, I legit think a pelipper ban would nerf rain harder than a damp rock nerf. Pelipper is just huge, being able to check so many things (Xard, opposing swampert, heatran, volcarona, etc.) while being a super solid pivot AND provide utility in defog / knock off AND potential unique coverage w/ Hurricane. Politoed can't even offer like 20% of what Pelipper offers and a rain with damp rock politoed would unironically be worse than non-damp rock Pelipper.

Either way, I think since these are a bigger change, it's probably to suspect test them.

3. Ignore rain, Serperior suspect test
I'm actually sympathetic to this. I think Serperior enables both "HO slop" and "weather slop" in one mon, and subleech is genuinely beyond annoying in this tier as you don't have the high usage of Amoonguss/mvenu/av torn like you do in oras. The double/triple fire suns + serp are like extremely potent, and the same with koko/lando + serp + sweepers HO teams. In both variations, the utility defog/glare serperior is really nice and enables quite a lot, but you can also just make lando the utility set and have serp be subleech instead since its autowin in so many mu's as long as you don't miss multiple leech seeds.

Other options that I think aren't it:
1. Mega Swampert
Although a Mega Swampert ban sounds alluring, I just think this is a cool mega outside of rain too and would suck to not have it. I also honestly think rain would be omega gutted with it, and you lose your best tool into HO.

2. Do Nothing
I know this is popular with some groups because this is an old gen, there is not one thing that is broken, and surely it will cycle out of this mess. Or some people are enjoying SM and think its quite balanced. This is what we done every single time something was brought up for like 7 years now. I want to say that, with all due respect, the majority of people who are echoing this are non-builders in the tier. Which is totally fine and you have that right, but I think to be actually good at SM, or any tier, you have to be able to build in it, and I just think if anyone has tried building a couple teams for a very serious tour they will run into just how difficult it is to build in this tier. I think this is actually part of the problem. I mean I'm a full timer builder in ORAS and I can probably make 10 solid ORAS teams in the time it takes me to make 1 in SM. Me and gama spent literal hours every week going back and forth on sometimes a single team/idea in SPL. Nobody aside from literally 5 maybe max 7 people are building consistent/fresh things in this tier, and everyone just waits for the next shiest team skype/zaza/tree/bengay/diyusi or whatever drop and then either copy it or make slight edits. There is a HUGE problem with lack of builders and re-using, and a huge part of it is just how ridiculously hard to build a solid team in this tier is. This is probably not a real reason for tier action, but I do believe in tier action that is intended for the overall and longterm health of the community, even if its not objectively broken. At this point, having ANY action can help this.

 

[Lil Monsta]

Hey, I'm an observer to all of this. I played USUM OU when it was current gen and until about when Spectrier was banned in SSOU, then played sporadically at Discord tours. I never played at a high level so I won't talk about wether or not I believe Mega Swampert, Rain or Serperior are broken, however, I will express some thoughts that popped up in my mind as I was reading this.


:swampert_mega: Mega Swampert :swampert_mega:

I see that some players dislike the combination of Mega Swampert + Rain because it's too much as a rain sweeper, but want to keep Mega Swampert outside of Rain because it actually contributes to the tier. If this is the case, why not ban Drizzle ++ Swift Swim? Smogon Tiering Policy cannot be used as an excuse here as this combination is banned from BW OU, yes, it is true that said ban happened while BW OU was current gen, which actually favours my point.

The biggest excuse I see against complex bans is that newer players are less likely to play if they see a bunch of seemingly arbitrary and complex bans, which I have a lot of strong opinions about but this isn't the place to talk about. In this case, newer players are much more likely to try current gen OU, meaning that the supposed "negative impact" of complex bans doesn't affect the people it supposedly does because there are a lot less new players in USUM OU than there are in SV OU.

Banning Drizzle ++ Swift Swim would make rain a lot weaker by disallowing Mega Swampert to be played in rain, this also means that because Rain is weaker, Manaphy weaker too, even more so when it doesn't have a partner that outspeeds and OHKOs would be answers to Manaphy. The only collateral damage that this ban would have is Kingdra, who as far as I know barely gets used so it doesn't even matter.

:pelipper: Drizzle :pelipper:

Drizzle is banned in every single tier of SM except OU, perhaps it's time to ban it in OU. But to do some questions would have to be asked.

What does Rain give to the tier?
Would teambuilding become easier if Rain were to be banned?
Would Hyper Offense, Stall or any archetype in general become too strong?

These are hypotheticals that cannot be answered because we don't have a magic ball, but I'm pretty sure that experienced players could give very good answers to those. I don't believe that a ban to *just one* of Pelipper or Damp Rock would do much. Sure, removing either 8 turn Rain or a Rain setter with access to moves such as Roost, Defog and U-Turn would make Rain a lot less scary, but with how some of the people here are describing the problem Rain seems to have both too good of a Rain setter and too many turns of Rain.

:serperior: Serperior :serperior:

I hate this mon, A LOT. I didn't like it when I played and I love how people dislike it. It doesn't have a super big movepool (Leaf Storm, HP, Sub, Seed, Glare, Knock, Defog and Taunt is all I can remember it using) but the few moves it uses give Serperior a huge array of ways to beat its checks. SubSeed is such a stupid set, it beats pretty much any slower Pokémon if you position Serp correctly, it beats Leech Seed immune Pokémon because the only Grass type that takes +2 HP Fire well enough is MVenu.

What are the best answers to Serperior that you can easily slot on an average team? Tornadus-T seems like the best one I guess. Bug Buzz Volcarona beats SubSeed but doesn't want to eat a Glare so you have to be somewhat careful (+ does it switch into serp if rocks are up and it's not at 100%?). I suppose that most of the Serperior counter play uses a similar logic to that of Manaphy where one has to offensively threaten it with faster Pokémon, which is probably easier said that done because of Glare.

 

[Ske]

I've talked to the upper roa council and they'll work on updating the SM council and also work on some surveys. So that's good news!

Personally speaking, and after reading the entirety of this thread, I think the following are valid ways to go about action:

1. Manaphy ban
This has been a topic of discussion since 2019 and I think it will forever haunt SM, no matter what cyclical iterations it goes through. Manaphy has an asymmetrical existence in SM - it has low usage but its impact on the builder is massive. Rain's winrate is the same between Manaphy and Magearna. This is a quick and easy ban that impacts the tier minimally but can still shift the tier in a positive direction, without meaningfully nerfing rain.

2. Keep Manaphy, Damp Rock / Pelipper suspect test
This was quite popular because many believe Rain is a tad too much but Manaphy is not a problem, and neither will it nerf rain. The first ide ais to suspect damp rock - I think this is actually a very cool option that is probably the smallest way you can nerf rain. We've already seen non-damp rock Pelipper rains; 2 of them just last SPL, and they both won. This would nerf the stronger parts of rain - Greninja & Swampert - without actually taking action towards them.

Another idea is a pelipper suspect test. I'm not gonna lie after I thought about it more, I legit think a pelipper ban would nerf rain harder than a damp rock nerf. Pelipper is just huge, being able to check so many things (Xard, opposing swampert, heatran, volcarona, etc.) while being a super solid pivot AND provide utility in defog / knock off AND potential unique coverage w/ Hurricane. Politoed can't even offer like 20% of what Pelipper offers and a rain with damp rock politoed would unironically be worse than non-damp rock Pelipper.

Either way, I think since these are a bigger change, it's probably to suspect test them.

3. Ignore rain, Serperior suspect test
I'm actually sympathetic to this. I think Serperior enables both "HO slop" and "weather slop" in one mon, and subleech is genuinely beyond annoying in this tier as you don't have the high usage of Amoonguss/mvenu/av torn like you do in oras. The double/triple fire suns + serp are like extremely potent, and the same with koko/lando + serp + sweepers HO teams. In both variations, the utility defog/glare serperior is really nice and enables quite a lot, but you can also just make lando the utility set and have serp be subleech instead since its autowin in so many mu's as long as you don't miss multiple leech seeds.

Other options that I think aren't it:
1. Mega Swampert
Although a Mega Swampert ban sounds alluring, I just think this is a cool mega outside of rain too and would suck to not have it. I also honestly think rain would be omega gutted with it, and you lose your best tool into HO.

2. Do Nothing
I know this is popular with some groups because this is an old gen, there is not one thing that is broken, and surely it will cycle out of this mess. Or some people are enjoying SM and think its quite balanced. This is what we done every single time something was brought up for like 7 years now. I want to say that, with all due respect, the majority of people who are echoing this are non-builders in the tier. Which is totally fine and you have that right, but I think to be actually good at SM, or any tier, you have to be able to build in it, and I just think if anyone has tried building a couple teams for a very serious tour they will run into just how difficult it is to build in this tier. I think this is actually part of the problem. I mean I'm a full timer builder in ORAS and I can probably make 10 solid ORAS teams in the time it takes me to make 1 in SM. Me and gama spent literal hours every week going back and forth on sometimes a single team/idea in SPL. Nobody aside from literally 5 maybe max 7 people are building consistent/fresh things in this tier, and everyone just waits for the next shiest team skype/zaza/tree/bengay/diyusi or whatever drop and then either copy it or make slight edits. There is a HUGE problem with lack of builders and re-using, and a huge part of it is just how ridiculously hard to build a solid team in this tier is. This is probably not a real reason for tier action, but I do believe in tier action that is intended for the overall and longterm health of the community, even if its not objectively broken. At this point, having ANY action can help this.

Click to collapse...

Building in SM has always been easy if you actively study, build, and play the tier previous metagame knowledge alongside the new meta developmenta and high power level from Pokemon with priority lets you check the strong with your own strong shit while having a defensive backbone from mons like Magearna Kyurem Black and Landorus and saying people who want nothing to happen in the tier and pretty much don’t build in SM is very ignorant and shows you don’t actually care about Gen 7 you just want to WIN with what you want to win with and don’t want to understand that every tier has boring and dull moments and the stuff that’s spammed and mostly winning sometimes isn’t actually broken. Current gen USM taught me a lot about tiering, if we just Bannned Magearna when we got tired of it back in 2017 what would had the meta been like right now? ABR Tricking and other prominent builders & players don’t even think rain is that Good right now not even counting Manaphys impact on building. Serp is another one but I’m less keen on keep because why would we keep something that promotes Glare and Evasion nonsense but that gives the question is it actually broken tho? Magearna is the best mon in the tier But a well played serp can easily beat it so idk?? Serp seems a much more ideal suspect test because of this reason.
I think the best Nerf to rain would be to Suspect Test Pelliper if Peli is gone it exposes what’s the actual problem with Rain?

Also banning Drizzle + Swift Swim seems like a cool idea.

Testing Pelliper & Serp seems like the most logical solution

Can we test bad Ubers like Solgaleo first that’s way more fun than removing stuff
since the main argument for Manaphy in rain & Serp is the meta is not fun to me rn & that I see the rain with the same 6 everyday when ppl don’t want to use Bulky Offense

Rain is overrated ppl need to stop spamming it as much because it wins more when u use it once in a while not every day(it’s only better to spam on ladder cuz they don’t know)

Z Celebrate Victini in Sun/Psy Terrain Zam in Psy Terrain Scarf Kart in Grassy Terrain, DD Xard with Veil up, u see where I’m getting at all these are irritating and they have help from another mon I can see if Manaphy is broken by itself(Another reason to test Serp) but I think Testing Peli makes more sense because Manaphy by itself outside of rain isn’t that oppressive at all

Prepping for Manaphy = Prepping for Rain which actually makes it easier to beat because ur know ur facing a Rain when ur dealing with Rest Hydration Manaphy so keep that in mind

USM is actually one of the more actively played & liked gens & from my 10 year experience with the tier I think we should wait and see if Rain usage drops because that teams usage and Win Rate literally fluctuates every year, people forget and lose to then they prep and don’t worry about rain and the cycle continues

MANAPHY AND SERP ARE NOT BROKEN USE AV KYUREM BLACK (fuck that set all I use is Serp & Manaphy)

 

[Maktyum]

Building in SM is easier its ever been if you actively study and know the tier previous knowledge and posts alongside the high power level lets you check the strong with your own strong shit and saying people who want nothing to happen don’t build in SM is very ignorant and shows you don’t actually care about Gen 7 you just want to WIN and don’t want to understand that every tier has boring and dull moments and the stuff that’s spammed and mostly winning sometimes isn’t actually broken. Current gen USM taught us a lot about tiering, if we just Bannned Magearna when we got tired of it back in 2017 what would had the meta been like right now? ABR Tricking and other prominent builders & players don’t even think rain is that Good right now not even counting Manaphys impact on building. Serp is another one but I’m less keen on keep because why would we keep something that promotes Glare and Evasion nonsense but that gives the question is it actually broken tho? Magearna is the best mon in the tier But a well played serp can easily beat it so idk?? Serp seems a much more ideal suspect test because of this reason.


USM is actually one of the more actively played & liked gens & from my 10 year experience with the tier I think we should wait and see if Rain usage drops because that teams usage and Win Rate literally fluctuates every year, people forget and lose to then they prep and don’t worry about rain and the cycle continues

Click to collapse...

I want to answer this point by point.

"If you actively study the tier..." What a way to begin... Because you've been studying the tier at the highest level, my friend? Building has never been as difficult as it is right now if you don't want to get run over by a random playstyle, which forces you to play what people consider "cheese," whether it's HO, weather, or fat. I don't think we're complaining about how boring the tier is, as you seem to think, but rather about how restrictive and so much more limiting it has felt lately, since your only way to secure good matchups is through said cheese or spam strategies.

I did not see any signs of ABR and Tricking publicly saying that rain is not even that good. There is a good chance that they think rain is fine, like almost all the other threats in the tier, if I recall the few instances where they talked about the state of the tier. But throwing around the names of prominent players is one of the weakest arguments there is to advocate for your position.
Moreover, I don't think ABR nor Tricking have been insanely active in SM OU, as the tier has changed quite a bit since CG (even though the threats are the same, the pace and sets are not). It would be like if I had a screenshot of Empo saying he was in favor of a Manaphy suspect (here lol ). As good as Empo is, it is not gospel, and even if he agrees with my point of view, it feels very cheap to argue that rain is broken that way.
"Did you know Jesus is against rain? Yeah, you can't say anything now :)" (Or did I manage to influence you just because Mr. 10+ trophies said so?)

You also talk as if pro-ban players weren't around during CG. For all I know, it's pretty balanced between the pro-suspect and anti-suspect sides among CG players. And if you were answering Ruffles specifically, he plays SM in a lot of tours (and participates in SM prep for SPL, I believe) and was present during CG as well.
Even if you're a veteran of the generation, the discussion isn't about how good the gen was back then, but rather about how it feels right now. I dare say that most players have found SM terrible to play lately. The ladder is losing a lot of players, and compared to two years ago, it has never felt this low. The top used to be 1800+, and now there are only two players above 1700. Back 2 years ago ADV and SM were competing for the top spot, now it's clear that SM is losing momentum.

I don't see the connection between Magearna not being banned and suspecting rain right now. There is nothing to "learn about tiering" when nothing here is actually related to the subject. "Broken checks broken" has been a sentiment shared by detractors of the tier for years, so using that to defend the generation is a terrible argument.
And "if you studied the tier more," you would know by now that SM has well-defined structures and not just a soup of broken pokemon thrown next to each other. It's not by chance that it was considered highly stable and balanced for a long time, until recently, when the metagame became polarized around HO and weather (whereas CG was much more balance/fat-heavy, with those ABR-style archetypes).
I won't spend much time on the argument that "Magearna is the best mon in the tier, Serperior beats it, therefore Serperior is broken." It's like saying, "Glaceon beats Landorus, the second best mon in the tier, so Glaceon must be broken."

Testing Manaphy & Serp seems like the most logical solution

Click to collapse...

MANAPHY AND SERP ARE NOT BROKEN

Click to collapse...

so which one is it, there is everything and nothing here?

I think we should wait and see if Rain usage drops because that teams usage and Win Rate literally fluctuates every year

Click to collapse...

2024-2025-2026

It has been at least two full years of rain dominating. And again live tours are not in those stats. how long do we need to wait really? it will not disappear with a miracle hoping people forget they can play rain

USE AV KYUREM BLACK

Click to collapse...

As much as I like this set, you can't seriously say that you can fit kyurem black and moreso with av on every team? not only you give up recovery and the breaking power of Z move/life orb/band or wtv asking to get pp stalled by a slowbro spamming recover, it does not even check manaphy that well. You are weak to rocks, you can see how this drops its viability very quickly as a check.
252+ Atk Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 294-346 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-Black in Rain: 353-416 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 228-270 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-Black in Rain: 250-294 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-Black in Rain: 128-151 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
and can start to put def on manaphy if I think kb av is annoying

 

[Ske]

I want to answer this point by point.

"If you actively study the tier..." What a way to begin... Because you've been studying the tier at the highest level, my friend? Building has never been as difficult as it is right now if you don't want to get run over by a random playstyle, which forces you to play what people consider "cheese," whether it's HO, weather, or fat. I don't think we're complaining about how boring the tier is, as you seem to think, but rather about how restrictive and so much more limiting it has felt lately, since your only way to secure good matchups is through said cheese or spam strategies.

I did not see any signs of ABR and Tricking publicly saying that rain is not even that good. There is a good chance that they think rain is fine, like almost all the other threats in the tier, if I recall the few instances where they talked about the state of the tier. But throwing around the names of prominent players is one of the weakest arguments there is to advocate for your position.
Moreover, I don't think ABR nor Tricking have been insanely active in SM OU, as the tier has changed quite a bit since CG (even though the threats are the same, the pace and sets are not). It would be like if I had a screenshot of Empo saying he was in favor of a Manaphy suspect (here lol View attachment 848238). As good as Empo is, it is not gospel, and even if he agrees with my point of view, it feels very cheap to argue that rain is broken that way.
"Did you know Jesus is against rain? Yeah, you can't say anything now :)" (Or did I manage to influence you just because Mr. 10+ trophies said so?)

You also talk as if pro-ban players weren't around during CG. For all I know, it's pretty balanced between the pro-suspect and anti-suspect sides among CG players. And if you were answering Ruffles specifically, he plays SM in a lot of tours (and participates in SM prep for SPL, I believe) and was present during CG as well.
Even if you're a veteran of the generation, the discussion isn't about how good the gen was back then, but rather about how it feels right now. I dare say that most players have found SM terrible to play lately. The ladder is losing a lot of players, and compared to two years ago, it has never felt this low. The top used to be 1800+, and now there are only two players above 1700. Back when ADV and SM were competing for the top spot, now it's clear that SM is losing momentum.

I don't see the connection between Magearna not being banned and suspecting rain right now. There is nothing to "learn about tiering" when nothing here is actually related to the subject. "Broken checks broken" has been a sentiment shared by detractors of the tier for years, so using that to defend the generation is a terrible argument.
And "if you studied the tier more," you would know by now that SM has well-defined structures and not just a soup of broken pokemon thrown next to each other. It's not by chance that it was considered highly stable and balanced for a long time, until recently, when the metagame became polarized around HO and weather (whereas CG was much more balance/fat-heavy, with those ABR-style archetypes).
I won't spend much time on the argument that "Magearna is the best mon in the tier, Serperior beats it, therefore Serperior is broken." It's like saying, "Glaceon beats Landorus, the second best mon in the tier, so Glaceon must be broken."



so which one is it, there is everything and nothing here?

2024-2025-2026
View attachment 848244View attachment 848245View attachment 848246
It has been at least two full years of rain dominating. And again live tours are not in those stats. how long do we need to wait really? it will not disappear with a miracle hoping people forget they can play rain


As much as I like this set, you can't seriously say that you can fit kyurem black and moreso with av on every team? not only you give up recovery and the breaking power of Z move/life orb/band or wtv asking to get pp stalled by a slowbro spamming recover, it does not even check manaphy that well. You are weak to rocks, first you can how this drops its viability very quickly as a check.
252+ Atk Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 294-346 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-Black in Rain: 353-416 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 228-270 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-Black in Rain: 250-294 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 240+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-Black in Rain: 128-151 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
and can start to put def on manaphy if I think kb av is annoying

Click to collapse...

Okay & now ima answer you

1.Yes I have been building and playing in gen 7 OU ever since it was released, I started late ORAS and when I play mons on showdown I play gen 7, now frankly idk where all of this frustration about the tier singles down to rain but Psyspam Yard Victini Sun Xard HO’s & Koko Kyurem Black teams been making the tier feel like this forever and Banning Manaphy & Serp is not going to make this go away the tier has plenty of super powerful spam shit and honestly i think the tier isn’t as bad as your making it out to be if you enjoy SM u accept this is just how the tier is and u appreciate the good that comes with having strong Pokemon around while having a balance of Strong Defensive mons to check them like Magearna, Toxapex, and Landorus

2. I was making a point that taking action on a Pokemon instead of actually learning why there is a problem is a better solution to a more healthy and enjoyable tier. And No SM ladder being less active isn’t rlly about the state of SM ether most ladders are actually aren’t as active as they were?? I still play gen 7 ladder actively to test Teams and I think it’s pretty active relative to the popularity of all the other tiers rn. I was making the Magearna comparison because Magearna one of few that was complained about constantly a while ago similar to Mega Mawile and Kartana but now that people have figured out it Magearna beats itself and that it’s not all that bad for the tier Defensively it’s a really healthy and important part of the tier if people admit it or not. what if in the Future HO runs completely rampant and Rain isn’t viable enough to check it and it would had been rlly appreciated? I’m not even making that argument ether I’m just saying maybe there are other ways of changing gen 7 without removing anything in the tier itself because a single team being used the most is not a reason to even suspect test or ban something ether.

3. I brought up AV Kyurem B because it has a really good Matchup vs both Manaphy and Serperior which is being brought up right now I think it’s a really underrated set and helps but I’m not saying it completely counters it ether it’s SM nothing completely counters everything a Specs Tapu Lele can slot fucking Shadow Ball for Jirachi if it wanted to, A Modest Tapu Lele Psyshock 3hkos any Magearna this tier not for the weak bro lmao
(Also if u run a lot of bulk on Mana Kyurem always outspeeds and gets 2 fusion bolts off)

4. Yes there were Great Pro Ban players then and Amazing Pro Ban players now??? Never said there wasn’t there are A lot of great players against it too, as I said great points on each side

5. Nobody’s talking about but I’ll say it FUCK VOLCARONA mfs talking Manaphy this Serp that like half the fucking tier feel broken at times bro & tbh its not that bad it’s not like it’s uncontrollable

6. Most of the time a Manaphy or Serp player or ANY won or lost is because they Outplayed or they played Bad or just didn’t build or prep well enough those statistics are very important actually but it also shows that just because a team is used a lot doesn’t mean we point the finger but ima play devils advocate

7.What I do find interesting is the increased winrate across 3 years & this year it being its peak in tour from what I can see at near %70 winrate(even tho idk if winrate is good to base something like this on) so i understand where you are coming from

8. I also noticed ABR/BKC Magearna rain #4 this year which kinda gives us insight that maybe Rain is just a good meta pick rn moreso than Manaphy going crazy(Serp still kinda guilty tho lmfao)


Unban > Do Nothing > Test Pelliper & Serp > Test Manaphy & Serp > Test just Serp Or Manaphy > Test Damp Rock >>>>>>>>>>>>>Test Mega Swampert(wrong witchu)

 

[Abele]

Also a lot of yall ain’t play that team when gen 7 was Current Gen Rain was actually much more obnoxious and anoyying during that time because people were just now figuring out how to deal with it… Suspecting it now when meta has already adapted to it seems counterintuitive

Click to collapse...

Alright, so you are against taking action with rain.

(Let's ignore the poor argument that doesn't prove rain isn't unhealthy for the metagame, you can come with way more conclusions from this)

reat points from each sides, Tbh Imo ether saying the Metagame is fine rn just stale OR Suspect Testing Both Manaphy and Serperior rn is a pretty safe option compared to just outright Banning something or Banning something like Damp Rock,

Click to collapse...

Oh, so you changed your opinion, now there's space for a suspect.

"Suspect Testing Both Manaphy and Serperior rn is a pretty safe option compared to just outright Banning something" yes, that's how suspect works. Quick bans wont happen in a tier that is almost 10 years old lol.

(also council if you’re reading this if anything happens just suspect test Pelliper because it nerfs Rain without taking away Rain as a whole and ppl using Politoad would actually be so fucking funny)

Click to collapse...

Ok so suspect pelipper now? I thought u were against any suspect at first.

Banning Manaphy & Serp is not going to make this go away the tier has plenty of super powerful spam shit

Click to collapse...

Manaphy and serp ban wouldn't be enough because the meta has other "super powerful spam shit" = Let's not take action on manaphy and serperior.


What.

because a single team being used the most is not a reason to even suspect test or ban something ether.

Click to collapse...

If you told me you read each post from this thread, I wouldn't believe you.

Even if i think usage stats and winrate are a important argument to understand why rain is op (Considering rain oftenly gets possitive winrate in a meta that every team has adapted to try not having a dire mu into rain without success)

Yes there were Great Pro Ban players then and Amazing Pro Ban players now??? Never said there wasn’t there are A lot of great players against it too, as I said great points on each side

Click to collapse...

Yea true you didn't say there weren't a lot of great players against it, so why do u even mention ABR and Tricking? This feels like flooding the thread with nonsense specially if you accept that argument adds nothing to it.

5. Nobody’s talking about but I’ll say it FUCK VOLCARONA mfs talking Manaphy this Serp that like half the fucking tier feel broken at times bro & tbh its not that bad it’s not like it’s uncontrollable

Click to collapse...

Ah volcarona now, wow.

I brought up AV Kyurem B because it has a really good Matchup vs both Manaphy and Serperior

Click to collapse...

Idk if you realized yet but the whole purpose of the serperior set we are talking about is opening his way vs pokemon that could be considered a check, and yes, one of them is kyurem black.

Most of the time a Manaphy or Serp player or ANY won or lost is because they Outplayed or they played Bad or just didn’t build or prep well enough those statistics are very important actually but it also shows that just because a team is used a lot doesn’t mean we point the finger but ima play devils advocate

Click to collapse...

This adds nothing as well, every team works like that and there's a reason why rain doesn't have 100% playing against non-rain lol. The whole thread points out that the often rain "checks" aren't really checks, being a bit stronger into rain means being weaker to pretty much every other team (rotom wash, most fake water/fire ressist ever) and that rain can open his path vs walls by just spamming 30% flinch.


By this i don't want to be toxic and saying that other opinions are completely wrong (didn't even include my thoughts about how wanting to unba something rn in sm should be considered as verbal terrorism) But there's a clear inconsistency with your points, won't even include the posts you deleted because i will guess you realized how wrong were them. But each of these posts had a different position and were written the same day.

Instead of flooding this thread with arguments that aim to nothing, please take your time to express your ideas in a single big post. Consider the meaning of manaphy suspect in the context of rain.

The main problem on threads like this is that people argue without a defined premise. For future discussion:
-Manaphy itself it's not broken, banning it it's a indirect way of nerfing rain so it gets less favored MUs while also keeping solid answers vs fat (Aka araquanid, magearna, volcanion, crawdaunt)

- Rain has threats but not a definitive answer - The comment of mantine it's a good example to explain this, rain can adapt to literally any meta tendencies, gastrodon usage rising up? let's run energy ball manaphy, offense usage rising up? Let's use magearnaa or even fucking kindra. Mantine usage rising up? No worries, toxic swampert/manaphy will make you rethink what are you doing in this forum and getting a beautiful family.

Click to collapse...

Also the possible unbans have no analysis of what would happen in the tier after them lol, having the most amount of pokemon in OU doesn't makes the tier better.

But what if HO becomes overwhelming, then? Well, one common denominator is Serperior, but I still struggle to fully believe that it’s busted. I also don’t believe that Tapu Koko is busted, but it shares a common denominator of enabling HO. And they work very adeptly with each other! And also, and perhaps most easy to start with: I think their enabling of Screens might have to go. It undermines how important priority can be to checking those fast threats they enable, and phazing is not common enough in the tier to make up for it otherwise. Both also facilitate their Screens set up easily, from Serp’s Glare to Koko’s Volt/Turn. I wouldn’t even start with Light Clay - I would go so far as to delete Screens.

Click to collapse...

Hey, thanks for giving your opinion, i agree with some points that were also pointed out in this thread before but this paragraph caught my attention. Screens barely has seen any usage recently in SM tournaments (I have watched almost every SMPL replay and haven't remember any game with them). Last SPL it has been used a few times (probably no more than 2) and cresselia was the screens setter, which also means u have to sacrifice 2 moves between Ice beam, moonlight and thunder wave.

I will leave this in case someone wants it, i'm doing a favor to whoever wants to post too lol
https://slc.berkeley.edu/writing-worksheets-and-other-writing-resources/suggestions-developing-argumentative-essays

 

[Ske]

Alright, so you are against taking action with rain.

(Let's ignore the poor argument that doesn't prove rain isn't unhealthy for the metagame, you can come with way more conclusions from this)

Oh, so you changed your opinion, now there's space for a suspect.

"Suspect Testing Both Manaphy and Serperior rn is a pretty safe option compared to just outright Banning something" yes, that's how suspect works. Quick bans wont happen in a tier that is almost 10 years old lol.

Ok so suspect pelipper now? I thought u were against any suspect at first.

Manaphy and serp ban wouldn't be enough because the meta has other "super powerful spam shit" = Let's not take action on manaphy and serperior.


What.


If you told me you read each post from this thread, I wouldn't believe you.

Even if i think usage stats and winrate are a important argument to understand why rain is op (Considering rain oftenly gets possitive winrate in a meta that every team has adapted to try not having a dire mu into rain without success)


Yea true you didn't say there weren't a lot of great players against it, so why do u even mention ABR and Tricking? This feels like flooding the thread with nonsense specially if you accept that argument adds nothing to it.

Ah volcarona now, wow.

Idk if you realized yet but the whole purpose of the serperior set we are talking about is opening his way vs pokemon that could be considered a check, and yes, one of them is kyurem black.



This adds nothing as well, every team works like that and there's a reason why rain doesn't have 100% playing against non-rain lol. The whole thread points out that the often rain "checks" aren't really checks, being a bit stronger into rain means being weaker to pretty much every other team (rotom wash, most fake water/fire ressist ever) and that rain can open his path vs walls by just spamming 30% flinch.


By this i don't want to be toxic and saying that other opinions are completely wrong (didn't even include my thoughts about how wanting to unba something rn in sm should be considered as verbal terrorism) But there's a clear inconsistency with your points, won't even include the posts you deleted because i will guess you realized how wrong were them. But each of these posts had a different position and were written the same day.

Instead of flooding this thread with arguments that aim to nothing, please take your time to express your ideas in a single big post. Consider the meaning of manaphy suspect in the context of rain.

Also the possible unbans have no analysis of what would happen in the tier after them lol, having the most amount of pokemon in OU doesn't makes the tier better.



Hey, thanks for giving your opinion, i agree with some points that were also pointed out in this thread before but this paragraph caught my attention. Screens barely has seen any usage recently in SM tournaments (I have watched almost every SMPL replay and haven't remember any game with them). Last SPL it has been used a few times (probably no more than 2) and cresselia was the screens setter, which also means u have to sacrifice 2 moves between Ice beam, moonlight and thunder wave.

I will leave this in case someone wants it, i'm doing a favor to whoever wants to post too lol
https://slc.berkeley.edu/writing-worksheets-and-other-writing-resources/suggestions-developing-argumentative-essays

Click to collapse...

Abele
Let’s take a look here


Alright, so you are against taking action with rain.

(Let's ignore the poor argument that doesn't prove rain isn't unhealthy for the metagame, you can come with way more conclusions from this)

1.Im giving my opinion on each subject and i gave out a order on which I think should happen at the bottom of the page if you actually read what I said you would had known.

Manaphy and serp ban wouldn't be enough because the meta has other "super powerful spam shit" = Let's not take action on manaphy and serperior.


What.

2.I said that Idt Manaphy or Serp are really broken but let’s say they are which I did in my thread the post is about the State of SM OU and how unplayable it is. The teams that benefit from Manaphy & Serps ban just replace Rain in the metagame like before Manaphy on rain was popular and all the other Cheese and Spam teams just take its spot. & Then why are these slow and passive teams that can’t 2hko Manaphy being discussed too? That’s the big point I’m trying to make but can’t seem to get out Gen 7 is full of offensive mons that can 2hko or Ohko Manaphy, only mons that can’t do this are Bulkier Builds which in that case why are we pandering to Balance when USM is a offensive metagame that already rewards smart builders that use Balance anyway? & Balance has plenty of ways to deal with Manaphy too, nobody here talks about Ditto which is really good and removes immense pressure from Mana & Serp they can never boost or u will reverse sweep them. Offense has Kyurem B, Serp, Kart Koko ect Fat has Pyukumuku, Mantine, Gastro, Ditto
HO has Dragonite,Volc to countersweep, Kommo O, ect Fini in terrain can help with Glare along with teammates to help with Serp there are smart and subtle ways to check these threats that allow them in

If you told me you read each post from this thread, I wouldn't believe you.

Even if i think usage stats and winrate are a important argument to understand why rain is op (Considering rain oftenly gets possitive winrate in a meta that every team has adapted to try not having a dire mu into rain without success)

3.That’s really ironic bro you literally just said I can’t make up my mind.. when I was just giving my opinion on each outcome of the future of USM OU, like I said before if you didn’t see before

Unban > Do Nothing > Test Pelliper & Serp > Test Manaphy & Serp > Test just Serp Or Manaphy > Test Damp Rock >>>>>>>>>>>>>Test Mega Swampert

Also saying (Considering rain oftenly gets possitive winrate in a meta that every team has adapted to try not having a dire mu into rain without success) this is crazy because you can apply this to a lot of playstyles, I’m not tryna get run over by Mega Zam in Psy Terrain ether, and it’s not like the Rain players didn’t play well to earn their wins you’re making it out like they just cheesed their way with rain, Rain has a %50 winrate last year now this year it’s at %79 it’s Broken lol, 2023 it was still %54 so what changed to make it so broken?? Or maybe the Metagame just favors having the combination of M Pert Mana in Rain because they cover so much offensively and defensively so there’s no risk of loading up junk so they load up rain which doesn’t sound broken it sounds like people just want to use something they know is good? Ppl don’t load up another standard team with similar winrate like the M Dia Dragonite team which had higher winrate than rain last year(winrate is still not everything)


Instead of flooding this thread with arguments that aim to nothing, please take your time to express your ideas in a single big post. Consider the meaning of manaphy suspect in the context of rain.

4.How about instead of you coming at me without any real good argument and instead of you calling me crazy you can in reality ask me questions and how and why I think a unban would help the metagame like I would do if I didn’t agree or understand something.If you don’t I just think you have no good argument to prove that im wrong lol.
(also I deleted because I didn’t want too many posts lmfao)

Also the possible unbans have no analysis of what would happen in the tier after them lol, having the most amount of pokemon in OU doesn't makes the tier better.
^This is the one

5.Also the possible banning of Manaphy and or Serperior have no analysis of what would happen in the tier after them lol, having the less amount of pokemon in OU doesn't makes the tier better.

LOL

 

[Skypenguin]

I don't want to derail the discussion because the council is being revamped and we are going to send out a new survey, and hold a suspect test if there is enough support.

However I want to correct some facts since I am in the do nothing camp and not a non-builder as Ruffles claims most are.
Mostly because ABR and Tricking have indeed publicly made those comments about rain

Tricking

ABR (remember he builds in spl)

I'm not going to rehash all my points again because our path forward is pretty clear, but I'll say something that maybe I didn't convey well in my first post. Let me put this in bullet points - bear with the references to specific pokemon until I get to the general point in the end

• People often bring up +3 hydro vortex calcs when saying manaphy cannot be answered
• It is the case that the matchups in which manaphy can set up Tail Glow the most freely are against balance-stall teams
• However, Manaphy cannot set up against pokemon such as Haze Toxapex, especially so if it is running one of the alternative coverage options that are brought up like Ice Beam or Energy Ball
• The +3 calc against Latias is irrelevant because if you only have 1 Manaphy answer, it should be Calm Mind and win, even forcing damage on Ice Beam Manaphy (which your teammate in pex should stave off somewhat effectively)
• It is possible to trade damage to keep manaphy low with pokemon commonly used on fat/sand balance, such as MTar chipping with edge and keeping it low via sand, non-cm Latias (if you are complaining about needing to run CM Thunder every time) brings it low, and unboosted Kart/Koko even in the worst case will leave it in range of rocks
• i.e., for Manaphy to freely set up and claim a KO with its Z Move, it must be brought in, with rain up, against a specific subset of the opponent's team

Therefore, the way I interpret the argument against manaphy is as such (ngl I'm paraphrasing 100p's quip):

When using a balanced-stall team, if an opposing Manaphy comes in under rain against a Pokemon it counters, I should be able to reset the game state to neutral without having to outplay.

Click to collapse...

I do not think this is valid. I think you should sometimes be forced to sack a pokemon, if you are choosing not to run a hard answer to it. This happens all the time with offense, but we don't seem willing to accept that you still need to outplay and give yourself room to do so in the builder, when using fat. If my team loses to Manaphy after I trade with non cm lati because I don't have a koko or a zone or a kart or whatever and can't stop it from healing, I probably deserve to lose.

Let's consider a very popular offense team that is seen as fundamentally solid.

If Fire Blast Zard-Y or Medicham come in on 4-5 out of 6 mons, a pokemon is going to die, end of story. However, you still have room to come back and outplay afterwards. If your stall team cannot do this I don't think you deserve to be able to complain. There are myriad other threats like Heal Bell + Zardx/Hone Claws Kyub that achieve the exact same effect, if you are going to say rest is the differentiating factor.

If we look at metagames like BW, no matter how many offensive threats you ban, you are always going to have some pokemon that are more dangerous than others depending on the matchup, even if they're not the most viable Lati/Keld. My opinion from an SM point of view is that this skewed balance is a good thing - by having more ways to win, you may be more likely to pull a bad matchup, but you have more room for skill expression through your own wincons. If you run a passive team you give yourself fewer ways to win, so it is inevitable that you have a hard time against pokemon you choose not to hard counter.

Maybe rain is still broken, but I can't support banning Mana just to make a change.

also Ske please put a bit more thought into your posts

 

[Giannis Antetokommo-o]

Cool thread. In my time playing tournaments, I've definitely seen SM become more unfriendly to balance. While still viable, the days of your classic Gliscor / Pex style builds being flagship have decreased for sure. I'd attribute this more to the abundance of breakers being used to bully these teams. Over the years, we've seen Pokemon like Zard-X reinvent themselves with SD to punish those builds. Taunt on several Pokemon, examples being Lele, Zam, Koko, and so forth, has also seen more usage to make life harder for balance and to counteract modern developments like the surge in Cress on the style. There are obviously a ton more Pokemon with the ability to threaten balance and I won't list them all. However, the reason I mention this is because while Manaphy on rain certainly does make things complicated for certain balances, it's hard for me to say it's the main culprit behind the style thriving less. There is no way to truly know unless it happens, but I am unsure how much friendlier SM will become to balance if Manaphy goes considering the insane number of other threats available in the tier. In general, I don't think this is a tier you can be too passive in and expect to consistently succeed.

Then there's other aspects of rain like Mega Pert and Ash Ninja. While they both have their uses against bulkier builds, they shine at keeping offense more humble, which you can argue is a positive if I'm claiming the tier is breaker heavy.

Rain itself as a style is potent and while others may disagree, I've found it largely inconsistent when using it or playing against it in higher level play. Rain takes a lot of precision and positioning to use well, just like many other options in the tier. Rain has never struck me as a style that is so overbearing that it takes away from the skill needed to win in game. You're still going to need to make the proper trades, calls, and sequences to win. Sure, Pokemon like Manaphy have the ability to blow back their checks with a boosted Z move, but that's not a trait exclusive to it. Your Z needs to be set up and timed well to kill your targets and minimize them from becoming a pain to take down afterward, e.g. they have a Ferro on the field and they switch to sac something else as you click Z Surf and all of a sudden dealing with Ferro becomes much harder for your rain team. There are many situations in this tier where you're going to be forced into these type of trades and I don't know if it's fair to argue Manaphy or other components of rain do this any better or to an unhealthier degree than other obscene threats like Mega Medi, a +1 Kyu-B, etc.

To me, both offense and balance have solid options to choose from to respond to rain and I am unsure if the demands placed in the builder are unreasonable. Sure, you're going to have games where rain lands a strong match up and dominates, but that can be said for many other Pokemon or styles in SM. There's so many tools available in SM that calling out rain or a singular component of the style as the main perpetrator to existing match up issues feels odd to me. It is very challenging to determine what component of rain, if any, is a problem if tiering action is pursued. Either way, I don't think there is anything wrong with the discussion and I'd be down to participate in a suspect if it happens.