I just wanna know what the hell they were thinking with Beat Up. That move was just straight up physical from the beginning.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
In gen 1, Ghost was physical because only Lick used the damage calculation. Given how offensively similar they are, Dark got assigned as Special to differentiate it a bit more from Ghost. GSC really should have retconned Ghost to be special since the iconic Ghost move is now Shadow Ball and it would have left room for Crunch and Beat Up to be physical, but didn't.
That doesn't explain Beat Up at all. Like I understand it dealing typeless damage --- a lot of weirder moves like Future Sight worked like that back then --- but why was Beat Up physical?
Like this isn't a case of Crunch and Bite being special despite their flavor being overwhelmingly physical. No, Beat Up was just straight up physical. Its wacky-ass damage calculation used your party's base physical attacks and the target's base physical defense.
Ehhh I personally wouldn't say they're overrated (though then again I'm not a particular ratings expert by any capacity) but I do also think it (and a lot of the older gens tbh) just simply aren't for me.
This comes down to a bunch of little things I don't like that I could probably spend the rest of the day ranting about (HMs existing, lack of Physica/Special split in the oldest ones, finite TMs, etc). But at the end of the day, it's probably more about me not really having much patience for the lack of some later QoL or the additional friction in exchange.
And I definitely won't discredit RSE in particular. Setting up things like natures, abilities and double battles IS pretty noteworthy to this day. And playing through a ROM hack of Emerald, I HAVE personally come to appreciate stuff like the OST, Team Magma and Aqua and Wally. But to be fair, that ROM hack added A TON of stuff and removed most of my personal barriers of entry, to the point I don't think it can be considered the same game anymore. Like, I'm sorry to say that I don't like the idea of playing a version of the game where I'm obligated to carry a Zigzagoon with all the HMs just to get somewhere.
I can definitely see why people, especially the more tactical players, love these games and put them as some of the best. But as a a guy who prefers exploring and completing the Pokedex, I think I'm good. Maybe starting out later put me under different expectations idk.
Premise I agree with, but if I may "ackshually" one detail, Cacturne almost has a weirdly opposite/third issue with Stats/Type-damage, in that it has equal mixed offenses for the "Hoenn Special" despite both its STABs and natural learnset being almost entirely Special (it has maybe 2-3 Phys moves without TMs, Tutors, or Breeding, and they're things like Poison Sting and Revenge that feel flavor based).
Almost everything you say here is just directly a good thing. Unambiguously. It's the exact set of things that I specifically liked about the Type-Category damage system. (Sure I'll call it that I just want a name for it thats better than "Unsplit Phys Spec Split")
That's the point! That's the entire blasted point! If there's a reason that I look to the Type-Category system as a genuine positive over the Phys / Spec Split, it comes down to the exactly these gameplay designs.
Yes, these Pokemon are a bit unintuitive. They were designed within the Type-Category system to interact in complicated ways with the limitations of the system. Gengar's typing alongside Levitate made it immune or 4* resistant to 5 of the 9 Physical Attacking types, and that alongside having a fast Will-O-Wisp made it deceptively strong as a Physical Attacker stopgap, which ends up even cooler when being a toolbox attacker with a wide spread of potentially optimal attacking choices made it a Pokemon that had to committaly tailor itself to specific head to head matchups with its choice of Attacking moves. Dragonite is designed to be a huge ball of Stats that relies on it's potential set variety to be a threat. In Generation 3 it could have ended up abandoning its Mixed Attacking roots due to the new EV / Nature systems rewarding optimization towards one Attacking stat, as outside of Earthquake it was by this point very Specially focused, but Dragon Dance as an offshoot option kept Dragonite as a respectable Physical threat and at this point I'd even say Mixed Dragon Dance wasn't even an absurd concept. There's even more detail I could go into about Gengar's variety of viable ingame options and Dragonite being a super cool way to design an overstatted but not overpowered gameplay design, but suffice to say I think Generation 3 is the era they are at their most interesting as Gameplay Designs.
Now Gengar is exactly what it looks like on the box. It uses Shadow Ball / Sludge Bomb / Focus Blast / Substitute with a dash of Disable / Will-O-Wisp / Icy Wind if you're feeling spicy and Perish Song if you are in a VGC game and forgot to Mega Evolve for some reason. Dragonite's story ends up a bit more complicated because of the Fairy type, but the fact that Gen 4-5 Dragons were so blatantly broken specifically because they took the Type-Category system's inbuilt restraints off and let Dragon Dance / Physical 120 BP STAB Outrage / Earthquake everything run rampant kind of makes my point for me about how well that would've aged without such a dramatic rebalancing measure. These are two Pokemon which have their depth massively decreased thanks to the Physical Special Split's implementation.
The Type-Category system is far from required to create designs that have this sort of design exist. Replicating Gen 3 Gengar's whole thing outside of Type-Category is sort of a pipe dream, but the idea of toolbox attackers without strongly centralized movepools alone certainly isn't. But it does usually require the designers to do things like not give Pokemon the exact powerful STAB move of their primary attacking stat that they would be most optimal with. I hope the combative nature of this sentence can be forgiven when I say it's exactly because of players who thought like you, people who complain about every time there is a Pokemon that doesn't have perfect alignment between it's Stats and Moves and Typing and Optimal Play Pattern, that there was a need felt to implement a design norm of not making these kinds of Pokemon anymore.
I don't find myself caring about the unintuitiveness of the whole thing in large part because you don't need to understand these intricacies of the system fully to engage with or complete the game.
dragon type for the first few gens were inherently defensive types slapped onto pokemon that usually had strong stats, dragon types having actual stab moves is basically a gen 3 thing to begin with. gen 2 had outrage but that was outrage which has a massive drawback
so the idea of using non-dragon physical moves as your dd set makes sense, esp. since dragon doesn't hit anything notable and their stats are so high
latios/latias are the most special attacking focused dragon types before gen 4, and they ofc have the soul dew (banned in comp but did exist) which boosted their already extremely good for the time special stats to the stratosphere, making up for any of those issues
personally i dont mind no split vs having split super much, but i do think that the split actually led to more unbalance overall, especially with making mixed attackers, like, a fairly common design archetype in the dex, significantly worse because you can almost always just spec into one = wasted stat points
so the idea of using non-dragon physical moves as your dd set makes sense, esp. since dragon doesn't hit anything notable and their stats are so high
latios/latias are the most special attacking focused dragon types before gen 4, and they ofc have the soul dew (banned in comp but did exist) which boosted their already extremely good for the time special stats to the stratosphere, making up for any of those issues
personally i dont mind no split vs having split super much, but i do think that the split actually led to more unbalance overall, especially with making mixed attackers, like, a fairly common design archetype in the dex, significantly worse because you can almost always just spec into one = wasted stat points
Honestly for Gengar and Dnite it's just cuz they had beefy stats (and Ability for Gengar to ignore EQ). Give them the middling Gen 3 stat special, neither would be as memorable competitively
Especially Gengar, Haunter already was cracked with 115 special 95 speed in Gen 1!
At that point the Pre and Post split system doesn't matter, it's aggressively set to be hyper fast offensive (T bolt, Thunder, Psychic, etc) OR disruptive support (Icy Wind, Will o Wisp). Cover it with the 250bp Explosion that atomizes def stat even if going off middling Attack, it doesn't matter. It's just generically high statted high bp
Sidenote, Dark Type being special seems entirely because of
A Certain Fire Dark mon...
Honestly I think pre split being preferred in the day was strictly cuz of the generic coverage options it automatically granted special attackers. Alakazam no longer dominated after Split cuz it lost the elemental punches, Electric types being too specially oriented till this day impacts the necessity for coverage, etc
Really the issue is post split didn't do enough to break rigid type archetypes regarding special and physical. Hidden Power was bullshittedly always special until deletion, something not an issue Pre split. It took till Gen 8/9 for a special version of burn for cutting attack. Normal has dogshit special options outside Boomburst coming Gen 6. Even Fairy, made well after the split, is terrible for physical
Especially Gengar, Haunter already was cracked with 115 special 95 speed in Gen 1!
At that point the Pre and Post split system doesn't matter, it's aggressively set to be hyper fast offensive (T bolt, Thunder, Psychic, etc) OR disruptive support (Icy Wind, Will o Wisp). Cover it with the 250bp Explosion that atomizes def stat even if going off middling Attack, it doesn't matter. It's just generically high statted high bp
Sidenote, Dark Type being special seems entirely because of
A Certain Fire Dark mon...
Honestly I think pre split being preferred in the day was strictly cuz of the generic coverage options it automatically granted special attackers. Alakazam no longer dominated after Split cuz it lost the elemental punches, Electric types being too specially oriented till this day impacts the necessity for coverage, etc
Really the issue is post split didn't do enough to break rigid type archetypes regarding special and physical. Hidden Power was bullshittedly always special until deletion, something not an issue Pre split. It took till Gen 8/9 for a special version of burn for cutting attack. Normal has dogshit special options outside Boomburst coming Gen 6. Even Fairy, made well after the split, is terrible for physical
i think my hot take is that i dont like pokemon types being forced into certain archetypes (well, gamefreak can do whatever of course, but only mons of those archetypes will succeed really) and i find it a very boring design choice + have not been convinced about anyones argument.
especially considering that like... they can pick whatever moves a pokemon learns. if they want x mon to not have special stab, it can simply Not Learn It. you do not need to make the entire type lack special stab lol.
i just dont know whats fun about every viable ice type being the exact same pokemon, really
especially considering that like... they can pick whatever moves a pokemon learns. if they want x mon to not have special stab, it can simply Not Learn It. you do not need to make the entire type lack special stab lol.
i just dont know whats fun about every viable ice type being the exact same pokemon, really
Another example that comes to mind is Grass, Fighting and, to a lesser extent, Psychic.
Grass type for a very long time have suffered from being stuck with only grass type support movepools, Normal attacks and, if they had one, a secondary type. So for a long time Grass ended up being this type that had the majority of its members use SubSeed sets because there just wasn’t much beyond that. More recent generations have been giving Grass types more to work with, like actual coverage and offensive stats vs bulky and slower average stats.
The overwhelming majority of Fighting types are all Physical focused, with all of 4 exceptions on a technicality because they’re still also mixed attackers anyway.
Lucario and Keldeo have more Sp.Attack than Attack, Infernape has equal attacking stats. Finally Iron Valiant and Blaziken have higher Physical attack but their Sp.Attack is still quite high already.
But even then, Keldeo and Iron Valiant are the only proper Special Attacking Fighting types just because Close Combat will always be better then Focus Blast.
Psychic meanwhile had the same issue just on the Special side until Gen 4. Then we kept getting at least one or two Physical Psychic types every Gen, and they did pretty good for themselves each time because they weren’t always giving them high Special attack alongside High attack because ‘oh their Psychic type they must have high Sp. Attack.’
I have really mixed feelings about the pre-Physical/Special split system. One the one hand, you got a few cool game design things like Toolbox Attacker Gengar as previously mentioned. Some Pokémon also had neat coverage options thanks to it, like Special Elemental Punches or Physical Shadow Ball. On the other hand, you had a lot of Pokémon that were objectively awful because they were designed in a way that's totally counter to how the game systems actual function, like Sneasel being a Dark/Ice-type physical attacker. The best usecase for Sneasel in that old system is probably freaking Colosseum, and that's only due to the Shadow Pokémon mechs letting it spam near-guaranteed crit Shadow Rushes.
I honestly prefer the current system if only because it actually enables more Pokémon to be usable for in-game even though some of the spice was lost.
I honestly prefer the current system if only because it actually enables more Pokémon to be usable for in-game even though some of the spice was lost.
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Nothing really prevents you from using a modified Toolbox Gengar nowadays though to replicate awkwardness
Can't use STAB Physical Shadow Ball? Just use equally STAB and BP Poison Jab
Can't use Special Ice Punch? Just use Special Giga Drain
Tbolt was always a thing so no change. Explosion even post nerf hurts
Honestly I notice a lot of debates of pre split really just boil down to "I miss Elemental Punches being special", which did negatively impact previous Gen 1-3 meta threats (Rip Alakazam and Typhlosion). But the meta threats of Gen 1-3 very noticeably were good mainly cuz of good coverage even with no stab, and/or good stats. The glup shittos Gen 1-3 were generically ass, not uniquely ass in the pre split system
Much in the same way we bemoan hyper coverage of modern mons, that was literally the only reason past meta threats thrived alongside hyper tooled stats
Can't use STAB Physical Shadow Ball? Just use equally STAB and BP Poison Jab
Can't use Special Ice Punch? Just use Special Giga Drain
Tbolt was always a thing so no change. Explosion even post nerf hurts
Honestly I notice a lot of debates of pre split really just boil down to "I miss Elemental Punches being special", which did negatively impact previous Gen 1-3 meta threats (Rip Alakazam and Typhlosion). But the meta threats of Gen 1-3 very noticeably were good mainly cuz of good coverage even with no stab, and/or good stats. The glup shittos Gen 1-3 were generically ass, not uniquely ass in the pre split system
Much in the same way we bemoan hyper coverage of modern mons, that was literally the only reason past meta threats thrived alongside hyper tooled stats
The Pokemon type chart was extremely designed with the physical special split in mind and Dragon type immediately became just a better normal type during the DS era. With the Fairy type introduced to nerf Dragon I think the type chart is mostly okay now and while the lack of a physical special split does make some Pokemon insane and pretty much removes any incentive for mixed attackers to be a thing anymore that's more of an issue of insane stats which would've happened anyways. If a Pokemon like Cinderace or Ogerpon was introduced with the physical special split intact they would've just swapped the attacking stats and called it a day.
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Dark is a type associated by cunning and cleverness, which are in turn associated with the special attack stats. Pokemon with high special attack IVs are described as "often lost in thought", "thoroughly cunning" and with similar characterizations.
Ghost looks like it should be specially oriented, which it eventually became, but let's not forget the devs originally based crits on speed, let Hyper Beam skip the recharge turn if it KO'd an opponent, made bug and poison super effective against each other, and stuff. So, I wouldn't put it past them to have different standards about what should be "physical" and what should be "special". I think they hit on a pretty unique way to categorize types instead of the super obvious route of "contact or thrown objects = physical":
Physical types are all about attacking with stuff you already have "in/on you". Even ghost works because ghosts use their own "ghostly matter" or "energy" to attack.
Special types can use what's in the vicinity. They're either in tune with the environment (elementals, grass) and the power of their moves is heavily affected by terrains and weather conditions, or they're clever enough to bend minds and laws of physics to their will (psychics) or exploit loopholes and torment opponents (dark types). Also, even not-too-clever dark moves fit because instead of cleverness, sheer unbridled brutality was their hallmark. It wasn't just about biting, it was biting brutally enough for the attack to qualify as a dark move.
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These are not toolbox substitutions. These are moves with some surface-level similarity. The reason physical Shadow Ball Gengar is toolbox is not because it has 80 BP.
Toolbox is a puzzle. A Pokemon has advantages that make it worth using, but the puzzle and question you're trying to solve is this: How do I deploy these advantages in a way that succeeds? What are good strategies for this specific Pokemon?
Modern Gengar is less toolbox because that question has an obvious answer. When the guy has huge Special Attack and huge Speed, you line up your strong Special Attacks and use your Speed to hit Pokemon hard and fast. The answer is very straightforward. We can talk about tweaks on the formula here and there, like Angus mentioned in their post (which is great and has multiple ideas reflected in mine), but that is garnish on the obvious core idea of using the power and the speed to hit hard and fast with 3 specifically obvious options (Ball, Wave / Bomb, Focus Blast)
Gen. 3 Gengar is full of puzzle pieces, but it's not obvious how those pieces fit together. We have lots of moves to work with, lots of interesting pieces, but they're pushing in different directions. The pieces have odd shapes and it's not obvious how we connect them to each other. Sure, that Special Attack is great, but we have other many pieces, like STAB and utility moves, pointing in other directions. How good of an answer is "go full special, sacrificing STAB and utility?" Not only are we lacking these advantages for their own sake, but we're also committing to a full-special strategy without the power of special STAB, which makes that answer harder to work well. If we can't have full STAB special power no matter what, maybe utility moves oughta have a larger role. Compare this to Gengar, where the answer of "go full special" sacrifices less, so considering other options is less worthwhile, because physical STAB is not valuable, and utility is harder to justify given the sheer power of its moves.
Solving this puzzle, fitting the pieces together to make a strategy and set, is fun and cool, because you're working through obstacles to build something from your own thinking. You rig together a finished puzzle that works despite the limitations and weaknesses you have to work around. Crafting a set for modern Gengar is very streamlined, so there are less obstacles to overcome and establish your own thinking with. Why get clever when stacking two compatible STABs and the strongest non-STAB is so easy AND optimal? When optimal strategies are harder to find, you can work your own intellectual muscles more, and be rewarded with success for it.
That is the benefit of pre-split (well there are multiple, but the benefit here). Not that it enabled options like special Ice Punch for Pokemon, and not awkwardness for its own sake. By lowering options, constraining what moves can be, pre-split creates an interesting challenge of set construction. You can express your skill to solve the puzzle and do your best in an interesting, engaging way. You learn things in the process, like "It's awkward that Shadow Ball uses my Attack, but most Psychic and Ghost-types weak to it have low Defense, making the move stronger than it looks in the right circumstances. Its neutral coverage also helps when Thunderbolt, my standard raw damage option, has some holes in its neutral coverage." Just slotting in Poison Jab doesn't replicate that process of discovery, especially since its neutral coverage is terrible instead of great, and it lacks this surprise advantage of physical Ghost.
The reason Ice Punch Gengar is cool is not because Gengar gets an Ice move. Giving modern Gengar Ice Beam would not provide the same benefit. Ice Punch works because BoltPunch makes Gengar's high Special Attack valuable, a worthwhile puzzle piece, without making that SpA so valuable through STAB bonus, that solving the set puzzle becomes super easy and uninteresting.
To re-create Toolbox Gengar, the answer is not to find moves similar to Toolbox Gengar Moves, because the cool thing about toolbox is figuring out what works yourself. You'd want to create the puzzle to be solved – taking modern Gengar and slashing Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb / Wave is a good start because they're so set-centralizing – and then try and solve the puzzle – figure out a winning set from the remaining pieces. Toolbox is a process, a game, versus specific output sets. (There are many things to say when we transition from building sets to deploying tools in battle, but this post is long enough for me.)
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Just focusing on the Gen 3 Competitive context as it's its most splashable, the typical OU Psychics weak to Shadow Ball are;
-Celebi
-Alakazam (barely)
-Medicham
-Jirachi
-Metagross
There's already an issue. Jirachi, Celebi, and Metagross especially all have 100+ base Def. It is genuinely better to use Hidden Power Bug on Celebi specifically, even with STAB. The only benefit is the chance Sp Def drop...which is kinda eh to rely on
Incidentally I feel Medicham is ironically a better user of Shadow Ball, thanks to Pure Power. A mon that ironically, is more one note than Gengar in the meta. Explosion kills it, but that's a huge sacrifice all things considered
Most RS teams seldom use Shadow Ball for Gengar from what I noticed, and focus on its other moves or other mons for answers to checks. The generic sets summary on Smogon ironically mention Shadow Ball used by opposing Snorlax, and Gengar compensating with higher Def or HP EVs
The "puzzle" is less so the result of the immediate pre split system, and more the overall meta context of all popular mons that point. Because its movepool is big, it can reliably be splashable to adapt to the ever changing meta, unlike one note mons or the generic middling mons. It's more "interesting" than post split, but that's largely cuz most players post split veer into hyper offense metas + power creep has rendered previous strats too risky or underpowered to break through. And regardless, the plethora of new items, abilities, and moves can lead to unique strats still for teams, not less. I like Weedletwineedle vids breaking the barrier for creativity, despite the powercrept metas
I used Gengar as an example cuz it's the only one used a lot in these debates. Medicham is mostly one note pre Split, Ttar and Metagross while splashable for coverage have largely played the same roles since Gen 3 in later metas despite Mega, Jolteon is an Eeveelution and Electric Type so it's one note regardless, Aerodactyl got less one note post Split. I'd argue that the Split impacts competitive less, in game playthroughs more to force players to use more support moves + post split granting better coverage options most types
Jirachi and Metagross aren't weak to Ghost in Gen 3... Steel still resisted Ghost then. Might wanna be careful talking about Pokemon and contexts you don't know very well.
Something I'll point out about the most commonly-cited victim of pre-split types: the problem with Sneasel isn't that it doesn't have STAB. The problem is that it's fucking Sneasel. If you swapped its Attack and Special Attack and changed nothing else, it wouldn't suddenly become a good Pokemon. It would just be Shitty Jynx.
Here’s something I thought of due to the recent announcement that Bank support will end next year. From what I have seen on various Pokémon communities online, several players prefer to transfer their important/special Pokémon from one generation to the next, or from one game to the next, just so they can keep using them in the newest games. But this is something I have never done. I prefer to keep all my important Pokémon (like in-game teams, post-game teams and battle facility teams) in the same generations (and for the most part, the same games) where they were first obtained. The main reason for this is that when I go back to an older game, I want to be able to keep using those Pokémon there. I guess I just prefer it that way. Every Pokémon is a product of its time, and for me, it might not always give the same feeling if I use a Pokémon in a different game/generation than the one it was first obtained in. And when I start playing a new game, I like to create new teams from scratch instead of sending over previous teams from older games.
I have a lot of important Pokémon on all of my games from generations 3-8, and I have zero plans to transfer them to gen 9, or any other generation. Likewise, when Gen 10 and WinWav are out, I have no plans to transfer any of my Pokémon from gen 9 (or any previous generations) to these games, I will create new teams instead.
While I have used the various transfer methods that exist (everything from Pal Park to Home) a lot over the years, it has almost always been when I have needed to transfer Pokémon that will be used for Pokédex purposes, or ones that I need for breeding. It has rarely been because I want to use my old teams in new games. There has only been one real exception, and that is my teams from Legends: Arceus. Since I didn’t like the battle system in that game, I transferred all my team members to Violet and Z-A instead, so I could use them in games where I actually liked battling with them.
One reason for transferring that I can understand is the worry that old save files can be deleted due to the battery dying (or how it now happens, I’m not sure). But for me, that doesn’t matter. If the save files of my old games were to die, my Pokémon will go down with them.
I have a lot of important Pokémon on all of my games from generations 3-8, and I have zero plans to transfer them to gen 9, or any other generation. Likewise, when Gen 10 and WinWav are out, I have no plans to transfer any of my Pokémon from gen 9 (or any previous generations) to these games, I will create new teams instead.
While I have used the various transfer methods that exist (everything from Pal Park to Home) a lot over the years, it has almost always been when I have needed to transfer Pokémon that will be used for Pokédex purposes, or ones that I need for breeding. It has rarely been because I want to use my old teams in new games. There has only been one real exception, and that is my teams from Legends: Arceus. Since I didn’t like the battle system in that game, I transferred all my team members to Violet and Z-A instead, so I could use them in games where I actually liked battling with them.
One reason for transferring that I can understand is the worry that old save files can be deleted due to the battery dying (or how it now happens, I’m not sure). But for me, that doesn’t matter. If the save files of my old games were to die, my Pokémon will go down with them.
Nice perspective, but TBF it's more annoying for competitive cartridge players who need particular moves or items on their Pokémon. Granted, these moves or items can also be Dexited in future generations, but I can understand wanting to take chances.
This has in fact never been a issue, the way VGC is designed specifically prevents this.
From gen 6 onward, Pokemon have to be caught/bred "in generation" in order to be usable in VGC, meaning your pre-CG pokemon are functionally useless outside of as breeding sources in case you want a particular ball.
And from gen 8, they let you use older pokemon, but in gen 8 you had to wipe away their moveset to get the "competitive approved TM" mark, and gen 9 introduced split movesets so again, old moves/TMs became irrelevant as they simply don't exist in modern game.
And with Champions now, that's even more pointless, as all you need is "any version" of a pokemon to have it instantly competitively ready.
Personally, I always moved forward my pokemon as soon as a new generation happens cause... I just don't see a reason to play older games at all. They're old, and I have 0 interest in them once they're no longer current. I'm long past the rose tinted glass era, the simple thought of playing a janky old game without modern QoL makes me lose any interest in it, even just going back to SwSh to get some Galarian Slowtwins for Champions was rough.
And bringing forward pokemon that already have EV and moveset sorted makes raids a lot less of a issue as I have a endless source of pre-trained legendaries to feed from.
Why did you then? They're available in both SV and ZA if you've got the DLC.
It'a actually more obnoxious to get enough galarica twigs in sv compared to swsh.
And holy i hate the ZA dlc grinding with passion, heck that.